FrizzFreston.5290 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > Solution: don't play content you don't enjoy. > > > > Ok, but then I wouldn't be able to get the skins locked to that content, so that wouldn't make me happy either. "The solution" has to involve *both* "not doing that content" *and* "getting the desired reward," otherwise it's only *half* of a solution. > > > -play content you like to make gold > -buy raid kills > -solved > > Good point. xD You dont need to do raids if you farm until you can pay for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > Solution: don't play content you don't enjoy. > > > > > > Ok, but then I wouldn't be able to get the skins locked to that content, so that wouldn't make me happy either. "The solution" has to involve *both* "not doing that content" *and* "getting the desired reward," otherwise it's only *half* of a solution. > > > > > > -play content you like to make gold > > -buy raid kills > > -solved > > > > > > Good point. xD You dont need to do raids if you farm until you can pay for them. I can't tell if your being sarcastic, but I'm not so I'll respond. Raids are suppose to be challenging content. That challenge can take many forms. I bought some raids when I was starting out a couple years ago so that I could learn mechanics by direct exposure (watching videos only helps so much imo). I've had the fortune to have been invited to a few sell runs too. The truth is, the prices to buy a single kill are not that high. It's not as though I'm a tp baron or anything, the only money I make in this game are raids, fractals, and open world pve such as tarir. A player who makes money at these rates, can pretty easily afford to buy a single raid kill of any given boss. After you have a single kill, you unlock the vendor where you can spend magnetite and/or gaeting crystals. You can easily get either of these currencies by buying very cheap raids such as w3 escort or w5 escort. Ofc if your only goal is to cap the weekly currencies, I think it is wiser to weekly cap by doing those 2 raids yourself. Its worth pointing out that those 2 raids are much more like open world pve, than they are a traditional raid. So I think for casual players who don't really enjoy traditional raiding, they are pretty attainable. But if you desire to completely ignore all raid content, it is certainly possible to obtain any given raid reward through this method. And of course, just like people who play raid content, there is always the chance of an rng drop of the specific raid reward you want from the boss you buy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > I like the snooker World Champion cup, but I'm a pretty bad player. Can I hike in the mountain and have it? Plz, kthxbye. > > There's no sports trophy whose copy you couldn't obtain if you really wanted it. Granted, those copies would have no prestige attached to them whatsoever, but they _would_ be identical otherwise. > > No it wouldn't. If they were identical, there wouldn't be a difference in prestige. Namely, the trophy would be completely worthless. Ah, that's the point - the trophy alone _is_ worthless (well, apart from the cost of materials). It's the prestige that is worth something, and the prestige is not associated with trophy, but with the action trophy was issued for. There are trophies like that for raids - titles and kill proofs. Envoy armor is not one of those - it is a trophy, but it also has an inherent worth that is not dependent on where it comes from. And that is a bad combination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > Solution: don't play content you don't enjoy. > > > > > > > > Ok, but then I wouldn't be able to get the skins locked to that content, so that wouldn't make me happy either. "The solution" has to involve *both* "not doing that content" *and* "getting the desired reward," otherwise it's only *half* of a solution. > > > > > > > > > -play content you like to make gold > > > -buy raid kills > > > -solved > > > > > > > > > > Good point. xD You dont need to do raids if you farm until you can pay for them. > > I can't tell if your being sarcastic, but I'm not so I'll respond. Raids are suppose to be challenging content. That challenge can take many forms. I bought some raids when I was starting out a couple years ago so that I could learn mechanics by direct exposure (watching videos only helps so much imo). I've had the fortune to have been invited to a few sell runs too. The truth is, the prices to buy a single kill are not that high. It's not as though I'm a tp baron or anything, the only money I make in this game are raids, fractals, and open world pve such as tarir. > > A player who makes money at these rates, can pretty easily afford to buy a single raid kill of any given boss. After you have a single kill, you unlock the vendor where you can spend magnetite and/or gaeting crystals. > > You can easily get either of these currencies by buying very cheap raids such as w3 escort or w5 escort. Ofc if your only goal is to cap the weekly currencies, I think it is wiser to weekly cap by doing those 2 raids yourself. Its worth pointing out that those 2 raids are much more like open world pve, than they are a traditional raid. So I think for casual players who don't really enjoy traditional raiding, they are pretty attainable. But if you desire to completely ignore all raid content, it is certainly possible to obtain any given raid reward through this method. > > And of course, just like people who play raid content, there is always the chance of an rng drop of the specific raid reward you want from the boss you buy. Not sarcastic. But it's funny how the discussion upto this point has not mentioned it. I appreciate your further explanation regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > I like the snooker World Champion cup, but I'm a pretty bad player. Can I hike in the mountain and have it? Plz, kthxbye. > > > There's no sports trophy whose copy you couldn't obtain if you really wanted it. Granted, those copies would have no prestige attached to them whatsoever, but they _would_ be identical otherwise. > > > > No it wouldn't. If they were identical, there wouldn't be a difference in prestige. Namely, the trophy would be completely worthless. > Ah, that's the point - the trophy alone _is_ worthless (well, apart from the cost of materials). It's the prestige that is worth something, and the prestige is not associated with trophy, but with the action trophy was issued for. There are trophies like that for raids - titles and kill proofs. Envoy armor is not one of those - it is a trophy, but it also has an inherent worth that is not dependent on where it comes from. And that is a bad combination. > No it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > I like the snooker World Champion cup, but I'm a pretty bad player. Can I hike in the mountain and have it? Plz, kthxbye. > > > > There's no sports trophy whose copy you couldn't obtain if you really wanted it. Granted, those copies would have no prestige attached to them whatsoever, but they _would_ be identical otherwise. > > > > > > No it wouldn't. If they were identical, there wouldn't be a difference in prestige. Namely, the trophy would be completely worthless. > > Ah, that's the point - the trophy alone _is_ worthless (well, apart from the cost of materials). It's the prestige that is worth something, and the prestige is not associated with trophy, but with the action trophy was issued for. There are trophies like that for raids - titles and kill proofs. Envoy armor is not one of those - it is a trophy, but it also has an inherent worth that is not dependent on where it comes from. And that is a bad combination. > > > > No it isn't. For you. Because (based on all your posts in previous threads) you see mainly the first value of such items and completely ignore the second one. Thus you see no problem with associating rewards with specific content - you don't really seem to think they have any inherent values when put out of that content. Problem is, they **do**. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >I like the snooker World Champion cup, but I'm a pretty bad player. Can I hike in the mountain and have it? Plz, kthxbye. You could probably buy one off one of the other champions, for the right price. But more realistically, what you're talking about there is a trophy. A trophy has no real value to it except to say "I did this thing." I have no problem with there being trophies in GW2, but only if they *are* trophies, as in an item with NO value to it other than to say "I did this thing." If an item *does* have its own intrinsic value, as in it's a skin that looks cool and that people might want so that their character looks like that, then it should not be used like a trophy, it should not only be available to people who "did that thing," because not everyone who wants the skin has any interest in "doing that thing." >Also allow me to add that the monetary rewards you get for raiding are in the exact same currency you get for finishing 3 dailies. Which is fine. We're not talking about that part. >Tell you what - come up with an obvious difference which tells the real envoy from a copy and you can have the copy for all I care. Completely irrelevant to your example. They can keep achievements that require you to clear the existing raids (with no rewards attached) as being exclusive to those raids, so that only people who actually complete the current raids can display those achievements and associated titles, but the skins themselves should be available to others too. > @"thrag.9740" said: >Yeah your just asking for them to be massively discounted, because on the first page of this thread, I brought up the difference between an easy mode and hard mode experience.... Not "massively." I expect it to balance out. >Your choosing to ignore how much longer it takes to get a boss on farm. You think its on farm after the first kill? There are plenty of bosses that have essentially no recovery, and so I would consider them never on farm. Again though, you are saying "it takes 50 hours to get a boss to the point where you can kill him routinely in 15-30 minutes." Ok, fair enough. So they could attach a significant award to the first kill, and then a lesser reward for the subsequent kills. Make it so that the easy mode rewards marginally (but not extremely) less than the hard mode's repeat rewards, meaning that after 100 runs on each, the hard mode and easy mode would both come out ok and feel that their time was well spent for doing so, but make it so that the hard mode version offers a significant bonus on the first completion, that the easy mode would not offer, and in exchange the easy mode would offer a small portion of that bonus each attempt, taking dozens of attempts to add up to the hard mode's first time bonus. >Where your advocating for rewards to be balanced based on the kill time of a successful pull. What about the time spent on unsuccessful pulls? Oh that just coincidentally massively favors easy mode. Clearing it on easy mode shouldn't take any more time than hard mode if both are 100% successful. I'm counting hard mode is "taking longer" on the *assumption* that it would take an average of 1.5-3 attempts on each boss even for a fairly competent crew. That would be the balance marker, that 30-45 minutes spent on one boss for hard mode would be equivalently rewarding to 15 minutes on easy mode (plus a little bonus on top of that). On top of that, the hard mode would provide faster progression through the raid-specific reward types, so a hard mode raider and an easy mode raider, if they started on the same day, the hard mode player would get his unique rewards considerably earlier than the easy mode raider. If that seems too little to you, then maybe you just don't enjoy raiding? >So yeah, your right, your not asking for the rewards for free. Your just asking that they be made massively cheaper. I still disagree, but now that you know that I'm *not* asking for them for free, please stop misrepresenting my position. >-play content you like to make gold >-buy raid kills >-solved Buying raids solves nothing. Any system in the game that is balanced around other players carrying people for money is a broken system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Well no matter how youre going to discuss how rewards and content should be this and that. (because its arbitrary either way) Its never going to be different. You can ignore or label the reasons given or even try to mark "a self defeating worldview" but that doesnt mean much if no one will listen. So far ArenaNet has only added more unique rewards and I personally think that completely fine if not beter than the opposite, even though I most likely wouldnt get some of those raid rewards. The biggest reason why unique rewards keep coming is just one. It is dull and uninteresting to do otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > Well no matter how youre going to discuss how rewards and content should be this and that. (because its arbitrary either way) Its never going to be different. > > You can ignore or label the reasons given or even try to mark "a self defeating worldview" but that doesnt mean much if no one will listen. > > So far ArenaNet has only added more unique rewards and I personally think that completely fine if not beter than the opposite, even though I most likely wouldnt get some of those raid rewards. > > The biggest reason why unique rewards keep coming is just one. It is dull and uninteresting to do otherwise. I wouldnt say dull or uninteresting but you can do the same content so much if not for incentives. Like the raids could be the best content we would ever see in gaming but if they dont have any incentives ppl will move to the next new thing in a month. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > Well no matter how youre going to discuss how rewards and content should be this and that. (because its arbitrary either way) Its never going to be different. > > > > You can ignore or label the reasons given or even try to mark "a self defeating worldview" but that doesnt mean much if no one will listen. > > > > So far ArenaNet has only added more unique rewards and I personally think that completely fine if not beter than the opposite, even though I most likely wouldnt get some of those raid rewards. > > > > The biggest reason why unique rewards keep coming is just one. It is dull and uninteresting to do otherwise. > > I wouldnt say dull or uninteresting but you can do the same content so much if not for incentives. Like the raids could be the best content we would ever see in gaming but if they dont have any incentives ppl will move to the next new thing in a month. If the things you get from raiding are at least as good as the stuff they'd get from "the next new thing," and if it really were "the best content we would ever see in gaming," then even after "the next new thing" hit, people would keep raiding, because it would be "the best content we would ever see in gaming," and that's what they would most enjoy playing. The only way that "the next new thing" would pull players away from raids is if either it offered better rewards than raiding (which it wouldn't necessarily have to), OR if players genuinely believed that *it* was *even better* content than the raids, in which case, that's their choice to make and they aren't wrong for doing so. They *should* be playing the content they enjoy most. If players will only raid for so long as they are being bribed with exclusive access to certain rewards, then apparently players just don't enjoy raiding all that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thrag.9740 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Buying raids solves nothing. Any system in the game that is balanced around other players carrying people for money is a broken system. Buying raids solves tons of problems. Just because your not happy with it, does not mean it does not solve anything. It certainly doesn't solve everything, but saying it solves nothing is just blind rhetoric. Additionally, many mmo games, including this one, enjoy a (relatively) free market where players exchange goods. Most players in gw2 with legendaries do not personally gather every t6 mat, every log, every ingot etc. They pay other players to do it for them. Or as you choose to phrase it, they pay other players to carry them through mat farming. I see no discernible difference between these goods and raid kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > Well no matter how youre going to discuss how rewards and content should be this and that. (because its arbitrary either way) Its never going to be different. > > > > > > You can ignore or label the reasons given or even try to mark "a self defeating worldview" but that doesnt mean much if no one will listen. > > > > > > So far ArenaNet has only added more unique rewards and I personally think that completely fine if not beter than the opposite, even though I most likely wouldnt get some of those raid rewards. > > > > > > The biggest reason why unique rewards keep coming is just one. It is dull and uninteresting to do otherwise. > > > > I wouldnt say dull or uninteresting but you can do the same content so much if not for incentives. Like the raids could be the best content we would ever see in gaming but if they dont have any incentives ppl will move to the next new thing in a month. > > If the things you get from raiding are at least as good as the stuff they'd get from "the next new thing," and if it really were "the best content we would ever see in gaming," then even after "the next new thing" hit, people would keep raiding, because it would be "the best content we would ever see in gaming," and that's what they would most enjoy playing. The only way that "the next new thing" would pull players away from raids is if either it offered better rewards than raiding (which it wouldn't necessarily have to), OR if players genuinely believed that *it* was *even better* content than the raids, in which case, that's their choice to make and they aren't wrong for doing so. They *should* be playing the content they enjoy most. > > If players will only raid for so long as they are being bribed with exclusive access to certain rewards, then apparently players just don't enjoy raiding all that much. Nah they still do w1 even after they have the armors they want. But u cant release content and have the only rewards be the boss chest thats not how goid design works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > Buying raids solves nothing. Any system in the game that is balanced around other players carrying people for money is a broken system. > > Buying raids solves tons of problems. Just because your not happy with it, does not mean it does not solve anything. It certainly doesn't solve everything, but saying it solves nothing is just blind rhetoric. At best, it's a *treatment* to a problem, not a cure. It's like having chronic pain and just taking pain killers until it's manageable, ideally you'd want to actually remove the pain itself so that the pain killers are no longer necessary. Of course there is an industry that would not appreciate that (like raid sellers). >Additionally, many mmo games, including this one, enjoy a (relatively) free market where players exchange goods. Exchanging goods is a different thing (in most cases) than paying someone to Sherpa you through a raid. If there's heavy RNG involved, for example, then if someone is lucky enough to have an item drop that they do not want or need, and someone else would like it, then that's a good thing. The flipside of that goes back to things like raids, where some items *only* drop in raids, and players can make a fortune selling those off. While it's better to have that option than not, ideally the player who bought it would have *other* places they could find it for themselves outside of hard mode raiding if that activity does not interest them. Purchasing goods and services from other players can be an option, but in certain cases it's a sign that there is an imbalance that should instead be corrected by the developers. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Nah they still do w1 even after they have the armors they want. Then they enjoy doing that enough that they don't have to fear other players having access to that loot. >But u cant release content and have the only rewards be the boss chest thats not how goid design works. Again, you would have access to many things. If you were to raid, you'd have access to all the same rewards you get now, and raiding would be the shortest route to earning that stuff. The only difference there is that you could *also* start getting them from *other* activities, at a slower rate. If you enjoy raiding more than anything else, there would be NO reason to not raid. In fact, you could even enjoy raiding *more,* because it would now offer you access to rewards that used to be exclusive to *other* modes too. If you'd already cleared out every raid reward, but really enjoyed raiding, then you could keep raiding to get The Ascension or Claw of the Khan Ur. It just might take you longer than a player using the current methods. And of course they can add time gates on new content, so that when a raid releases, it might be the *only* place to get those new rewards for a few months or so, and only then could other activities start earning progress towards them, but at least that option would be offered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Things being relatively hard to get is what creates markets. It was dungeon selling before its raid selling now. And in gw2 id assume it was haard instances and runners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > Buying raids solves nothing. Any system in the game that is balanced around other players carrying people for money is a broken system. > > > > Buying raids solves tons of problems. Just because your not happy with it, does not mean it does not solve anything. It certainly doesn't solve everything, but saying it solves nothing is just blind rhetoric. > > At best, it's a *treatment* to a problem, not a cure. It's like having chronic pain and just taking pain killers until it's manageable, ideally you'd want to actually remove the pain itself so that the pain killers are no longer necessary. Of course there is an industry that would not appreciate that (like raid sellers). > > >Additionally, many mmo games, including this one, enjoy a (relatively) free market where players exchange goods. > > Exchanging goods is a different thing (in most cases) than paying someone to Sherpa you through a raid. If there's heavy RNG involved, for example, then if someone is lucky enough to have an item drop that they do not want or need, and someone else would like it, then that's a good thing. The flipside of that goes back to things like raids, where some items *only* drop in raids, and players can make a fortune selling those off. While it's better to have that option than not, ideally the player who bought it would have *other* places they could find it for themselves outside of hard mode raiding if that activity does not interest them. > > Purchasing goods and services from other players can be an option, but in certain cases it's a sign that there is an imbalance that should instead be corrected by the developers. > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Nah they still do w1 even after they have the armors they want. > > Then they enjoy doing that enough that they don't have to fear other players having access to that loot. > > >But u cant release content and have the only rewards be the boss chest thats not how goid design works. > > Again, you would have access to many things. If you were to raid, you'd have access to all the same rewards you get now, and raiding would be the shortest route to earning that stuff. The only difference there is that you could *also* start getting them from *other* activities, at a slower rate. If you enjoy raiding more than anything else, there would be NO reason to not raid. In fact, you could even enjoy raiding *more,* because it would now offer you access to rewards that used to be exclusive to *other* modes too. If you'd already cleared out every raid reward, but really enjoyed raiding, then you could keep raiding to get The Ascension or Claw of the Khan Ur. It just might take you longer than a player using the current methods. And of course they can add time gates on new content, so that when a raid releases, it might be the *only* place to get those new rewards for a few months or so, and only then could other activities start earning progress towards them, but at least that option would be offered. Finding 9 ppl to raid weekly to farm currency to get the gear vs going solo doing some dailies and logging out. :Thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > Buying raids solves nothing. Any system in the game that is balanced around other players carrying people for money is a broken system. > > > > > > Buying raids solves tons of problems. Just because your not happy with it, does not mean it does not solve anything. It certainly doesn't solve everything, but saying it solves nothing is just blind rhetoric. > > > > At best, it's a *treatment* to a problem, not a cure. It's like having chronic pain and just taking pain killers until it's manageable, ideally you'd want to actually remove the pain itself so that the pain killers are no longer necessary. Of course there is an industry that would not appreciate that (like raid sellers). > > > > >Additionally, many mmo games, including this one, enjoy a (relatively) free market where players exchange goods. > > > > Exchanging goods is a different thing (in most cases) than paying someone to Sherpa you through a raid. If there's heavy RNG involved, for example, then if someone is lucky enough to have an item drop that they do not want or need, and someone else would like it, then that's a good thing. The flipside of that goes back to things like raids, where some items *only* drop in raids, and players can make a fortune selling those off. While it's better to have that option than not, ideally the player who bought it would have *other* places they could find it for themselves outside of hard mode raiding if that activity does not interest them. > > > > Purchasing goods and services from other players can be an option, but in certain cases it's a sign that there is an imbalance that should instead be corrected by the developers. > > > > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > > Nah they still do w1 even after they have the armors they want. > > > > Then they enjoy doing that enough that they don't have to fear other players having access to that loot. > > > > >But u cant release content and have the only rewards be the boss chest thats not how goid design works. > > > > Again, you would have access to many things. If you were to raid, you'd have access to all the same rewards you get now, and raiding would be the shortest route to earning that stuff. The only difference there is that you could *also* start getting them from *other* activities, at a slower rate. If you enjoy raiding more than anything else, there would be NO reason to not raid. In fact, you could even enjoy raiding *more,* because it would now offer you access to rewards that used to be exclusive to *other* modes too. If you'd already cleared out every raid reward, but really enjoyed raiding, then you could keep raiding to get The Ascension or Claw of the Khan Ur. It just might take you longer than a player using the current methods. And of course they can add time gates on new content, so that when a raid releases, it might be the *only* place to get those new rewards for a few months or so, and only then could other activities start earning progress towards them, but at least that option would be offered. > > Finding 9 ppl to raid weekly to farm currency to get the gear vs going solo doing some dailies and logging out. :Thinking: Also for real stop asking for everything to be aquired through any activity that will actually kill half the gamemodes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > Things being relatively hard to get is what creates markets. It was dungeon selling before its raid selling now. Yes, and that was bad at the time as well, but less of an issue because more people could manage without it. >Finding 9 ppl to raid weekly to farm currency to get the gear vs going solo doing some dailies and logging out. :Thinking: Depends on which you enjoy doing. If you enjoy raiding, then you should raid. If other people enjoy raiding, then they will join you. If you'd prefer to do some dailies and log out, then that's probably what you should be doing, and if you can't find nine other people who want to raid, then that's too bad, you aren't owed their services. Maybe offer to pay them. It's not ANet's job to bribe you into doing things you don't enjoy, it's their job to create fun experiences that you *want* to be doing. >Also for real stop asking for everything to be aquired through any activity that will actually kill half the gamemodes. If it does then those modes deserve to die, because apparently nobody actually enjoys doing them. The solution is not to bribe people to play them, the solution would be to make them more fun to play so that people *want* to be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > Things being relatively hard to get is what creates markets. It was dungeon selling before its raid selling now. > > Yes, and that was bad at the time as well, but less of an issue because more people could manage without it. > > >Finding 9 ppl to raid weekly to farm currency to get the gear vs going solo doing some dailies and logging out. :Thinking: > > Depends on which you enjoy doing. If you enjoy raiding, then you should raid. If other people enjoy raiding, then they will join you. If you'd prefer to do some dailies and log out, then that's probably what you should be doing, and if you can't find nine other people who want to raid, then that's too bad, you aren't owed their services. Maybe offer to pay them. > > It's not ANet's job to bribe you into doing things you don't enjoy, it's their job to create fun experiences that you *want* to be doing. > > >Also for real stop asking for everything to be aquired through any activity that will actually kill half the gamemodes. > > If it does then those modes deserve to die, because apparently nobody actually enjoys doing them. The solution is not to bribe people to play them, the solution would be to make them more fun to play so that people *want* to be there. > > What someone considers fun might be different than what you consider fun. Some enjoy the content, others enjoy the rewards, others like both simply because you dont agree with a design chouce that doesnt make said design choice bad. Also ppl will always go for the path of least "pain". Raids are actually played because they force u to play by their rules and because they reward u handsomely for doing so. If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff? Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game. Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > What someone considers fun might be different than what you consider fun. Some enjoy the content, others enjoy the rewards, others like both simply because you dont agree with a design chouce that doesnt make said design choice bad. I totally agree with that, which is why I advocate giving players *options.* I'm not the one saying "If you want that reward, you need to do this one type of content, whether you enjoy it or not." I'm the one saying "If you want that reward, you can do this content, *or* you can do that content, up to you!" And if someone genuinely doesn't care about the content and only wants the rewards, then he can just do whichever is easiest. Options. > Also ppl will always go for the path of least "pain". Raids are actually played because they force u to play by their rules and because they reward u handsomely for doing so. And yet before raids existed, there were people complaining that they should be added. Why would people complain about the need for a "more painful" type of content if they would *prefer* to "go for the path of least 'pain'?" Why do people attempt self-handicapped runs, with fewer members or weaker gear or poor class comps, if they aren't rewarded more for doing so? I think that so long as hard mode raids offer a shorter path to the cool stuff, and a slightly better "per repeat" reward, there will still be people that will run it. > If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff? *I* would, but then I don't like the raids in their current form. If I did enjoy the raids, then I'd probably keep doing the hard. I play this mobile game, and one of the daily activities is that you can fight up to five "boss encounters" per day, some easier than others, but offering *mostly* the same loot. One is considerably harder than the others, and offers slightly better loot, not by a massive amount, but noticeable (obviously nothing exclusive). I could just stick to the easier ones, but I do the harder one because it's within my capabilities, and the slight bonus reward is worth it. There's also an even harder mode, which I could also do up to five times per day, but I do not bother because it's more frustrating than entertaining to me. Other people do that one five times a day too though, even though the daily rewards are *worse* than for the ones I was talking about earlier. > Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game. That doesn't mean they're doing it right, or that what other games do is what's best for GW2. "Other games" don't typically have downed states, or solid heals on all classes, or dodge buttons either. > Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it. Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >I like the snooker World Champion cup, but I'm a pretty bad player. Can I hike in the mountain and have it? Plz, kthxbye. > > You could probably buy one off one of the other champions, for the right price. > > But more realistically, what you're talking about there is a trophy. A trophy has no real value to it except to say "I did this thing." I have no problem with there being trophies in GW2, but only if they *are* trophies, as in an item with NO value to it other than to say "I did this thing." If an item *does* have its own intrinsic value, as in it's a skin that looks cool and that people might want so that their character looks like that, then it should not be used like a trophy, it should not only be available to people who "did that thing," because not everyone who wants the skin has any interest in "doing that thing." That's not how it works. Not in real life, not anywhere. Value doesn't exist outside of people's perception. It's basically a measure of desire. It can be personal (answering the question "do you want this or not"), or collective ("is this wanted by many people"). The former isn't really interesting in the context of rewards, because it is strictly subjective and therefore you can't produce a fair reward with universal appeal. So a reward **has** to have high enough "collective" value. When you think about it, this is universally true in life. Sports trophies? They come with fame, which is highly-sought after. Large monetary rewards? Obviously. Status items? The same. Heck, even trophy significant others. They all work because a lot of people want them, but few actually have them. You want a situation where everyone has them, but this inevitably devalues the rewards. In order for them to keep working as rewards, they'd need to be turned in high-value status items. This is needed, because you're requesting people to do some effort in order to obtain them. If the reward doesn't have a high value, or in other words, if it doesn't appeal to people, then why bother? So an envoy set would need to cost something like 20-50k gold, putting it well out of reach for the average player, and raiding rewards scaled proportionally to make crafting one feasible in the intended time period. Which is obviously a worse situation for everyone. For the average players, because of the perception the raiders have much easier access to everything. And for the raiders, because they'd have much easier access to everything. Making them run out of reasons to play, get bored and quit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zealex.9410 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"zealex.9410" said: > > What someone considers fun might be different than what you consider fun. Some enjoy the content, others enjoy the rewards, others like both simply because you dont agree with a design chouce that doesnt make said design choice bad. > > I totally agree with that, which is why I advocate giving players *options.* I'm not the one saying "If you want that reward, you need to do this one type of content, whether you enjoy it or not." I'm the one saying "If you want that reward, you can do this content, *or* you can do that content, up to you!" And if someone genuinely doesn't care about the content and only wants the rewards, then he can just do whichever is easiest. > > Options. > > > Also ppl will always go for the path of least "pain". Raids are actually played because they force u to play by their rules and because they reward u handsomely for doing so. > > And yet before raids existed, there were people complaining that they should be added. Why would people complain about the need for a "more painful" type of content if they would *prefer* to "go for the path of least 'pain'?" Why do people attempt self-handicapped runs, with fewer members or weaker gear or poor class comps, if they aren't rewarded more for doing so? > > I think that so long as hard mode raids offer a shorter path to the cool stuff, and a slightly better "per repeat" reward, there will still be people that will run it. > > > If the raid told u "oh u can do this casually and get it in 5 months or do this much much much harder version and get the same thing in 3 months" u would choose to easier version because why would u make it harder for yourself for no greater payoff? > > *I* would, but then I don't like the raids in their current form. If I did enjoy the raids, then I'd probably keep doing the hard. I play this mobile game, and one of the daily activities is that you can fight up to five "boss encounters" per day, some easier than others, but offering *mostly* the same loot. One is considerably harder than the others, and offers slightly better loot, not by a massive amount, but noticeable (obviously nothing exclusive). I could just stick to the easier ones, but I do the harder one because it's within my capabilities, and the slight bonus reward is worth it. There's also an even harder mode, which I could also do up to five times per day, but I do not bother because it's more frustrating than entertaining to me. Other people do that one five times a day too though, even though the daily rewards are *worse* than for the ones I was talking about earlier. > > > Litterally no mmo does this. The highest tier of content gives the best gear in any game. > > That doesn't mean they're doing it right, or that what other games do is what's best for GW2. "Other games" don't typically have downed states, or solid heals on all classes, or dodge buttons either. > > > Games have been doing it for decades. Ill take the experience of hundreds of developers over someone in a forum thread telling me that the content is bad if giving its rewards elsewhere devalues it. > > Ok. Ppl that run with less ppl or with worse gear tent to do that as 1 time thing to see how far they can push themselves. Its to be expected that with the hardest content u will also get some of the best rewards. Its like saying the winners of the monthly Ats will get 2 greens and a blue. Ppl would laugh at that and never even bother. If someone doesnt care about the content and just cares about the rewards then he/she can do the current content. In general options are good but sometimes is better to create a piece of content with a specific idea in mind and present it as such for the ppl that would be interested in it and its rewards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Despond.2174 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 You want to raise the level of gamers while other games are doing the opposite and caving in to anyone who doesn't want to put any effort in. Too many difficulty modes splits a community. One MMO ha a ridiculous 4 different modes, to me that just shows indecision and poor design. Raiding is meant to be end game, the highest difficulty. It's not meant to be instant gratification, there's plenty of content that does that already. You want to encourage this type of healthy gamer. "Ok, this mode is challenging, I failed, how can I become better and conquer it the next time?" And you don't want this type of gamer. "I just failed this content for the first time, it's too hard, please make it easier or I will quit". Sadly the second type usually holds developers hostage and get their way. I've seen it destroy other MMOs and $$$ is all they look at. I've done everything bar raiding solo in this game. Good PVP rating, T4 dailies all pugging, LFG groups for all the metas, solo farming to acquire all my gear. The only mode that is more difficult getting into is raiding, and that's a pretty good fair trade. If I want to raid I have to start @ the bottom and work my way up, I don't want a tourist mode. Normal mode sets an average standard, a hardcore mode is there for those wanting to push things further. Anything more is redundant. A lot of people from other MMOs trying to turn GW2 into that MMO, GW2 is the best for a reason because for the most part it's AVOIDED many of these mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"zealex.9410" said: > Ppl that run with less ppl or with worse gear tent to do that as 1 time thing to see how far they can push themselves. Let me expand here a bit, using a personal example. Last night my guild team went for w5 after getting tired of failing Deimos (we missed some of our people, including both players who handkite, so we had a kiter who tried for a first time). We started Desmina 8-man (1 pug), just as a way to not get bored while waiting and got her down to 40% on the first try. We could have probably killed her if I didn't mess up on a bad wall, leaving the team without a golem pusher. Some people joined meanwhile, so we didn't keep trying. But my point is, an average team that can fail old bosses and hasn't killed Dhuum yet on its own can low man bosses with reasonable chances of success. How much easier do you want this content to be??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >You want a situation where everyone has them, but this inevitably devalues the rewards. You say "devalues" them, I say "correctly values" them. I believe that the skins should have no more value than their own intrinsic value, do you like the skin? Then it has value. Don't like the skin? Then it has no value to you. The value should not be based on the method of acquisition. If there are to be things that have value for their method of acquisition, then the ONLY value of that item should be in how it's acquired. Want to be known as someone who "did that thing?" Then the item has value to you. Don't care about being known as someone who "did that thing?" Then the item has no value to you. The problem is, when you bundle those two concepts, when you aren't allowed to have one without the other, then it inevitably creates cases where someone wants that skin, but couldn't care less about the "fame" involved, or vice versa, and that leads to these players getting caught in an unnecessarily arbitrary dilemma. >This is needed, because you're requesting people to do some effort in order to obtain them. If the reward doesn't have a high value, or in other words, if it doesn't appeal to people, then why bother? The appeal should be that they want the thing itself, not the effort that it represents. If they don't want the thing itself, then they don't need to, and can go on their way in peace. >So an envoy set would need to cost something like 20-50k gold, putting it well out of reach for the average player, Nah. They wouldn't. What would it cost at current rates to buy every run you'd need to get Legendary armor? If it's that much people are way overcharging. In any case, an easy mode player farming for Envoy armor shouldn't need to spend any more gold than a hard mode player. The difference would be in how quickly they accumulate specific resources like LI or boss tokens. > @"zealex.9410" said: > Its to be expected that with the hardest content u will also get some of the best rewards. Its like saying the winners of the monthly Ats will get 2 greens and a blue. Ppl would laugh at that and never even bother. Why though? Say someone enjoys doing the hardest content, and so he does, and he enjoys himself. Say another guy enjoys doing easier content, so he does, and he enjoys himself. Why does the first guy deserve more things for enjoying himself than the other guy does? I'll grant that the harder stuff tends to take longer, have more potential for failure, and takes more attention than the easier stuff, so there should be *some* balancing between the two to offer *slightly* more for the harder content, but there's no justification for it being an insurmountable barrier. > In general options are good but sometimes is better to create a piece of content with a specific idea in mind and present it as such for the ppl that would be interested in it and its rewards. The sticking point there is the "and its rewards" part. Again, you can totally say "this type of content is for this type of person, and anyone who doesn't like it can go elsewhere." That's fine, makes sense. But then "and its rewards." The rewards are placed in the content arbitrarily. There is no reason why someone who raids will desire the rewards attached to raids any more than someone who doesn't raid. You cannot say "well if you don't enjoy raiding, then that armor/weapon skin is just not your thing." It's a completely different axis. It would be like if sporting activities were hard locked to occupation, where you wouldn't be allowed to watch golf unless you were a doctor, or watch basketball unless you were a mechanic. "Too bad you can't watch the baseball game, but you should have gone into sales." It's a nonsense argument. > @"Despond.2174" said: >Too many difficulty modes splits a community. One MMO ha a ridiculous 4 different modes, to me that just shows indecision and poor design. Raiding is meant to be end game, the highest difficulty. It's not meant to be instant gratification, there's plenty of content that does that already. I'm suggesting two. I don't believe that this should splinter the community that badly, especially since it's likely to increase the overall pool. And I don't care about "the level of gamers," I think gamers should be at whatever level they're comfortable with. It's for fun, not a job. Present *opportunities* to improve, and *advantages* for doing so, but accept that not every gamer *wants* to reach the top. If everyone's special, no one is, but that doesn't mean that only the special deserve to be happy. >If I want to raid I have to start @ the bottom and work my way up, I don't want a tourist mode. That's fine, the mode is not designed with you in mind, and there would be no reason for you to play it. For a player with your mindset, sticking to the harder mode would be more rewarding overall. Not every player is like you though, and that's ok too. >A lot of people from other MMOs trying to turn GW2 into that MMO, GW2 is the best for a reason because for the most part it's AVOIDED many of these mistakes. That's what I was saying when people kept saying that GW2 should add raids. I still think I was right about that. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > But my point is, an average team that can fail old bosses and hasn't killed Dhuum yet on its own can low man bosses with reasonable chances of success. How much easier do you want this content to be??? One where you wouldn't have failed either of those encounters (under those circumstances). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >You want a situation where everyone has them, but this inevitably devalues the rewards. > > You say "devalues" them, I say "correctly values" them. There's no such thing as "correct" value. The closest thing you can get is a statistical average, also known as market value. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > One where you wouldn't have failed either of those encounters (under those circumstances). > Meh, that would just be boring and I would have quit the game long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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