Nimon.7840 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. > > Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. > Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens And in the cases where the boss can move out of your fields, more often than not you know when/how it's going to happen. Also how is this such a deal breaker for Reaper when it also affects other classes? There seems to be an astounding amount of "This won't work for Reaper" due to inaccurate numbers, having to rez players, having the boss move out of your fields, having the rotation interrupted by damage when this concept affects every other damaging build in the game. These are not some special sets of problems that only affect Necro, let alone only affecting Reaper and not affecting Scourge. While having to be melee is indeed a weakness of the build relative to Scourge I have addressed this time and time again, and could take a similar tone when talking about how Scourge relies on Alacrity to maintain the 2 shade average as per its requirements for it to get maximum condi duration. Both builds have weaknesses, and choosing not to play a build on account of said weakness is also fine. But saying that a build is impossible to play in the face of overwhelming evidence showing that is indeed possible is where I'm going to put my foot down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. > > > > Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. > > Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens > > And in the cases where the boss can move out of your fields, more often than not you know when/how it's going to happen. Also how is this such a deal breaker for Reaper when it also affects other classes? There seems to be an astounding amount of "This won't work for Reaper" due to inaccurate numbers, having to rez players, having the boss move out of your fields, having the rotation interrupted by damage when this concept affects every other damaging build in the game. These are not some special sets of problems that only affect Necro, let alone only affecting Reaper and not affecting Scourge. > > While having to be melee is indeed a weakness of the build relative to Scourge I have addressed this time and time again, and could take a similar tone when talking about how Scourge relies on Alacrity to maintain the 2 shade average as per its requirements for it to get maximum condi duration. Both builds have weaknesses, and choosing not to play a build on account of said weakness is also fine. But saying that a build is impossible to play in the face of overwhelming evidence showing that is indeed possible is where I'm going to put my foot down. I never said it only happens to necro, i said its inaccurate for all classes, as its not going to be a golem sitting still and not attacking you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drarnor Kunoram.5180 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. > > > > Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. > > Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens > > And in the cases where the boss can move out of your fields, more often than not you know when/how it's going to happen. Also how is this such a deal breaker for Reaper when it also affects other classes? There seems to be an astounding amount of "This won't work for Reaper" due to inaccurate numbers, having to rez players, having the boss move out of your fields, having the rotation interrupted by damage when this concept affects every other damaging build in the game. These are not some special sets of problems that only affect Necro, let alone only affecting Reaper and not affecting Scourge. > > While having to be melee is indeed a weakness of the build relative to Scourge I have addressed this time and time again, and could take a similar tone when talking about how Scourge relies on Alacrity to maintain the 2 shade average as per its requirements for it to get maximum condi duration. Both builds have weaknesses, and choosing not to play a build on account of said weakness is also fine. But saying that a build is impossible to play in the face of overwhelming evidence showing that is indeed possible is where I'm going to put my foot down. Main reason why I can see it being a much bigger deal for condi Reaper than other classes is that Condi Reaper has so much of its damage tied to that one field. Necro has no other ice fields (in any spec!), so there is no possible fallback when the boss leaves it. If a boss leaves a lava font, the Ele places another one a few seconds later. If a boss walks out of Executioner's Scythe's field, you've got a long time before you can try again. Can this be played around? Yes. Like you said, boss movements are usually predictable (and if they're not, you need a better tank). But when the boss does leave the field, Condi Reaper gets hit way harder than most other builds out there because that single long-cooldown field is vital to providing relevant DPS.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. > > > > > > Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. > > > Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens > > > > And in the cases where the boss can move out of your fields, more often than not you know when/how it's going to happen. Also how is this such a deal breaker for Reaper when it also affects other classes? There seems to be an astounding amount of "This won't work for Reaper" due to inaccurate numbers, having to rez players, having the boss move out of your fields, having the rotation interrupted by damage when this concept affects every other damaging build in the game. These are not some special sets of problems that only affect Necro, let alone only affecting Reaper and not affecting Scourge. > > > > While having to be melee is indeed a weakness of the build relative to Scourge I have addressed this time and time again, and could take a similar tone when talking about how Scourge relies on Alacrity to maintain the 2 shade average as per its requirements for it to get maximum condi duration. Both builds have weaknesses, and choosing not to play a build on account of said weakness is also fine. But saying that a build is impossible to play in the face of overwhelming evidence showing that is indeed possible is where I'm going to put my foot down. > > I never said it only happens to necro, i said its inaccurate for all classes, as its not going to be a golem sitting still and not attacking you. > > The issue here is that the context in which you said this was comparing the potential burst damage of Condi Reaper compared to Condi Scourge. It doesn't matter if the numbers are not indicative of a realisitc scenario when the point is to show the potential of what a build can do (and yes, while Necro does not get a 100% accurate picture of potential due to it not facilitating the usage of Epidemic the point was to compare the rotations of both builds, realistic scenarios don't factor in here). > @"Drarnor Kunoram.5180" said: > > @"Amerikajinn.4635" said: > > > @"Nimon.7840" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > Whats sad is amerikajinn, that the numbers are probably inaccurate due to the fact that its on a immobile golem who doesn't attack.Numbers would probably be less due to having to move around a lot and avoid stuff and getting downed a lot and rezzing other folks. > > > > > > Yep. Scourge just isnt as stationary as reaper. Boss moves out of your ice field? You are fcked. > > > Boss moves out of your shades? Nothing happens > > > > And in the cases where the boss can move out of your fields, more often than not you know when/how it's going to happen. Also how is this such a deal breaker for Reaper when it also affects other classes? There seems to be an astounding amount of "This won't work for Reaper" due to inaccurate numbers, having to rez players, having the boss move out of your fields, having the rotation interrupted by damage when this concept affects every other damaging build in the game. These are not some special sets of problems that only affect Necro, let alone only affecting Reaper and not affecting Scourge. > > > > While having to be melee is indeed a weakness of the build relative to Scourge I have addressed this time and time again, and could take a similar tone when talking about how Scourge relies on Alacrity to maintain the 2 shade average as per its requirements for it to get maximum condi duration. Both builds have weaknesses, and choosing not to play a build on account of said weakness is also fine. But saying that a build is impossible to play in the face of overwhelming evidence showing that is indeed possible is where I'm going to put my foot down. > > Main reason why I can see it being a much bigger deal for condi Reaper than other classes is that Condi Reaper has so much of its damage tied to that one field. Necro has no other ice fields (in any spec!), so there is no possible fallback when the boss leaves it. If a boss leaves a lava font, the Ele places another one a few seconds later. If a boss walks out of Executioner's Scythe's field, you've got a long time before you can try again. > > Can this be played around? Yes. Like you said, boss movements are usually predictable (and if they're not, you need a better tank). But when the boss does leave the field, Condi Reaper gets hit way harder than most other builds out there because that single long-cooldown field is vital to providing relevant DPS.. That is true, but as you've acknowledged situations where the boss moves out of the aoe unpredictably are very few, why then should Reaper be judged by the worst case scenario? We don't constantly have people saying Ele is fine and all, but it's so squishy; what if it goes down and loses all of its dps? My point being that while it is good to be aware of the weaknesses of a given build if it's also possible to entirely mitigate said weakness then it's a non-issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 Amerikajinn Wouldn't scourge have slightly easier time with dps than reaper because of the range? I mean you can stand place a field blow it up and place numbers, plus you got plenty of aoe fields. Bosses like cairn the indominable seem to not move that much, making it great for scourge, and reapers would have to run through minefields and get into melee mode while avoiding all those Aoe minefields to do dps and not get downed.Then again:Maybe it would work in their favor because a lot of times, you have to be within melee range to be helped in cairn, especially to avoid his teleport fields. In vale guard, Both should be decent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerikajinn.4635 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Amerikajinn Wouldn't scourge have slightly easier time with dps than reaper because of the range? I mean you can stand place a field blow it up and place numbers, plus you got plenty of aoe fields. > > Bosses like cairn the indominable seem to not move that much, making it great for scourge, and reapers would have to run through minefields and get into melee mode while avoiding all those Aoe minefields to do dps and not get downed.Then again:Maybe it would work in their favor because a lot of times, you have to be within melee range to be helped in cairn, especially to avoid his teleport fields. > > In vale guard, Both should be decent. As I said in the multiple instances where I compared the two, Scourge does indeed have the easier rotation and can do its damage from range. The benefit of Reaper is burst and CC to simplify. I'm not saying Reaper has to be played instead of Scourge, or even if Reaper has to be played when CC is needed. I'm saying what Reaper does better than Scourge and that it is indeed a build that works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 I would love a buff to the reapers cd.Personally having the right cds up to compete in condi is a issue to me. I'm still not sure where Anet is going with necros and reapers, and i'd love for them to tell us their plans. Is reaper going to be the all dps? is Scourge going to be condi? is it gonna be just support? Is the support even good enough to stand on its own? i mean i saw someone saying tempest don't need buffs, that other classes need nerfed to bring down the level to not have to buff classes to such op status that they are taken, so i wonder. Personally i don't see why reaper wouldn't be taken.It does have chills for cc which are real useful for keeping enemies close, but i dunno.I think changes might be needed to actual gs and maybe reaper cds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > I'm still not sure where Anet is going with necros and reapers, and i'd love for them to tell us their plans. > Nope. Nothing Will happend. Just few Nerf here buff here for staying in same spot patch by patch. Ppl Its been years And nothing good for necro. Why you still believe something will change? Just be happy for What you have Now before IT gets..nerfed :smile: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I'm still not sure where Anet is going with necros and reapers, and i'd love for them to tell us their plans. > > > > Nope. Nothing Will happend. Just few Nerf here buff here for staying in same spot patch by patch. Ppl Its been years And nothing good for necro. Why you still believe something will change? Just be happy for What you have Now before IT gets..nerfed :smile: > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I'm still not sure where Anet is going with necros and reapers, and i'd love for them to tell us their plans. > > > > Nope. Nothing Will happend. Just few Nerf here buff here for staying in same spot patch by patch. Ppl Its been years And nothing good for necro. Why you still believe something will change? Just be happy for What you have Now before IT gets..nerfed :smile: > @"Catchyfx.5768" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > I'm still not sure where Anet is going with necros and reapers, and i'd love for them to tell us their plans. > > > > Nope. Nothing Will happend. Just few Nerf here buff here for staying in same spot patch by patch. Ppl Its been years And nothing good for necro. Why you still believe something will change? Just be happy for What you have Now before IT gets..nerfed :smile: Because we shouldn't be overly complacent.If something has problems, we should ask for changes, like how i asked for changes for herald for revenants.I don't play rev, but i genuinely feel like it should have a place in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catchyfx.5768 Posted March 16, 2018 Share Posted March 16, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > Because we shouldn't be overly complacent.If something has problems, we should ask for changes, like how i asked for changes for herald for revenants.I don't play rev, but i genuinely feel like it should have a place in the game. Here Is not Heard. Balance ideas for necro Are in wvw And pvp section. Thats why necro Is underdog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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