Fractal builds and guides [dT]

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > "Adjustments" aren't really important. You can't adjust mid-fight, not in any meaningful way. Yes, an ele can switch to water attunement and trade all of its awesome damage output for not even mediocre healing. Great "feature". So the specialization argument doesn't hold*. Any sensible build in the game is a specialized one. Yes, eles happen to have both viable damage and viable healing spec, but so do rangers and so do reveneants. And out of the three, the ele healer is the least useful in PvE. So that's not an argument either.

> >

> > Thematic arguments don't hold either - a game doesn't need to be logical, it needs to be fun. And the fun comes from choices, from tradeoffs. Having both superior damage, superior control and superior survivability isn't a tradeoff. It's simply being blatantly overpowered. That's not fun, that's boring. You want necro to be top dps? Lose the extra health, lose the shroud, lose all the group utility in form of boon corruption, barrier and whatnot. Get a pure dps glass spec and then we can talk. Otherwise all you're asking is for the necro to be straight out superior to ele for no other reason that you picked one on character creation.

> >

> > * Note that you can achieve that "jack of all trades" by going cele. And then you end up exactly as equally bad at everything as you would expect. Mediocre damage, mediocre healing, mediocre survivability.

>

> You do realize Scourge isn't the only build Necros have, how does celestial do all that for Reaper?

 

I was talking about cele ele, not cele reaper.

And regardless of the build necros have inherently better survival than eles. Especially out of scourge, thanks to not only larger health pool but also shroud.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > "Adjustments" aren't really important. You can't adjust mid-fight, not in any meaningful way. Yes, an ele can switch to water attunement and trade all of its awesome damage output for not even mediocre healing. Great "feature". So the specialization argument doesn't hold*. Any sensible build in the game is a specialized one. Yes, eles happen to have both viable damage and viable healing spec, but so do rangers and so do reveneants. And out of the three, the ele healer is the least useful in PvE. So that's not an argument either.

> > >

> > > Thematic arguments don't hold either - a game doesn't need to be logical, it needs to be fun. And the fun comes from choices, from tradeoffs. Having both superior damage, superior control and superior survivability isn't a tradeoff. It's simply being blatantly overpowered. That's not fun, that's boring. You want necro to be top dps? Lose the extra health, lose the shroud, lose all the group utility in form of boon corruption, barrier and whatnot. Get a pure dps glass spec and then we can talk. Otherwise all you're asking is for the necro to be straight out superior to ele for no other reason that you picked one on character creation.

> > >

> > > * Note that you can achieve that "jack of all trades" by going cele. And then you end up exactly as equally bad at everything as you would expect. Mediocre damage, mediocre healing, mediocre survivability.

> >

> > You do realize Scourge isn't the only build Necros have, how does celestial do all that for Reaper?

>

> I was talking about cele ele, not cele reaper.

> And regardless of the build necros have inherently better survival than eles. Especially out of scourge, thanks to not only larger health pool but also shroud.

 

Inherently yes! But the usefulness of that in the PvE endgame is terribly overrated (by a lot of ppl in this community). In a raiding or fractal environment, dodges, blocks, invulns, stabs are (sometimes quite literally) infinite times more useful than just having more HP. And these useful 'traits' are exactly the advantages that the Necro has the least access to of all classes! Still, many Necro mains out there are more than willing to trade that inherent gimmick for something really useful: say damage, or _real_ group support.

And if you even think about it, many Necro mains are that desperate to even be willing to give something up in order to _finally_ getting acknowledged, while it wouldn't be even that unfair to just ask for major buffs only. Pure buffs is what the Necro in endgame PvE needs, but knowing ANet, there will always be a trade-off (last example: ICD; before that: shroud degen; etc.; etc.; etc.). Normally, I would say looking forward to the next update ... but again, from a Necro point of view, if feel we're going to be disappointed again and again and again!

(So like I said, playing other classes is for me the only way out atm, as long as I'm focusing my playing time to PvE endgame)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> Inherently yes! But the usefulness of that in the PvE endgame is terribly overrated (by a lot of ppl in this community).

 

Agreed. But you have to admit, if everything else was on the same level, it would still be a strict advantage.

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree Necromancer is in pretty bad spot for PvE atm. Largely because the class is heavily focused on conditions and condi builds are somewhat out of favor since their burst potential got reduced. Especially for non-raid content. But then that same thing makes them invaluable in large-scale WvW fights. So maybe that's the intent? I don't know really.

 

Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

 

I don't see the necro's inherent survivability useful everywhere out of META. Actually, I would even argue (like I said before) that in the full PvE endgame (T4 Fractals and Raids and maybe even map metas/world boss events), other survival methods (like I mentioned before: Invulns, Blocks, Dodges, Stabs, etc.) are a lot better, not _just_ in META. Even for low skilled players, I still think dodging, blocking or spamming your invulns at random is still more useful: you might by accident actually 'dodge' a mechanic, which 90% of the time still would've get you downed if you didn't, even if you have more base HP! Even worse, a well placed block/invuln/dodge completely annihilates a 1 million damaging shot/mechanic (if susceptible of course), while the transition from shroud to normal life pool is not even doing that anymore... even that has been nerfed (quite a while ago, but still)! Again, the whole base HP + shroud makes you far more survivable premise is a _very_ weak one in endgame PvE.

On the other hand, map roaming, leveling, doing hearts :D, etc. yea, you're right, having high base HP and having shroud, even having tanky minions is very useful ... But like you said, I am, and a lot of other Necro players are past that point, and want to be valuable in the adolescent part of PvE not just only in the stepping stones part! It's almost patronizing, really!

 

Also, ANet has proved very well that you can make a class that does well in low AND high end PvE, be meta AND 'newbie' proof AND even does very well in both WvW and PvP .....

Warrior much?!!

[Feanor.2358]

Meh, I never liked warrior.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

>

> I don't see the necro's inherent survivability useful everywhere out of META. Actually, I would even argue (like I said before) that in the full PvE endgame (T4 Fractals and Raids and maybe even map metas/world boss events), other survival methods (like I mentioned before: Invulns, Blocks, Dodges, Stabs, etc.) are a lot better, not _just_ in META. Even for low skilled players, I still think dodging, blocking or spamming your invulns at random is still more useful: you might by accident actually 'dodge' a mechanic, which 90% of the time still would've get you downed if you didn't, even if you have more base HP! Even worse, a well placed block/invuln/dodge completely annihilates a 1 million damaging shot/mechanic (if susceptible of course), while the transition from shroud to normal life pool is not even doing that anymore... even that has been nerfed (quite a while ago, but still)! Again, the whole base HP + shroud makes you far more survivable premise is a _very_ weak one in endgame PvE.

> On the other hand, map roaming, leveling, doing hearts :D, etc. yea, you're right, having high base HP and having shroud, even having tanky minions is very useful ... But like you said, I am, and a lot of other Necro players are past that point, and want to be valuable in the adolescent part of PvE not just only in the stepping stones part! It's almost patronizing, really!

>

> Also, ANet has proved very well that you can make a class that does well in low AND high end PvE, be meta AND 'newbie' proof AND even does very well in both WvW and PvP .....

> Warrior much?!!

 

This person is saying the truth. Necromancer is objectively the least defensive class of all - it's only the beefiest one, and while it may help noobs and newbies in open world, being beefy has no value in end-game and instanced content. The reason was explained but I'll repeat - having access to blocks, evades and invulns allows to chain them when necessary, possibly avoiding every oneshot attack or attack that spawns minions (siax for example). If you are necro and have literally zero access to such maneuvers (which is criticized since 2013, I know, I was there), you are forced to facetank which really isn't effective outside of open world maps exploration. ANet never acknowledge that as a problem and never wanted to allow necro mains to be effective if they want to tryhard or minmax. I am one of the most tryharding necros I know (especially on power build, with slaying pots, sigils, infusions, fractal champion, consumable bundles, prestacking marks and shit even ogre whistles, charr mortars and ember) and I will still be dramatically underperforming next to average weaver pug in my fractal party who doesn't use slaying pots/sigils and just repeats some basic half-baked rotation. It's the worst feeling ever but I love playing necromancer too much to change the class (and I don't really like the others) so this is very conflicting and for years I wish this was resolved somehow.

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

> >

> > I don't see the necro's inherent survivability useful everywhere out of META. Actually, I would even argue (like I said before) that in the full PvE endgame (T4 Fractals and Raids and maybe even map metas/world boss events), other survival methods (like I mentioned before: Invulns, Blocks, Dodges, Stabs, etc.) are a lot better, not _just_ in META. Even for low skilled players, I still think dodging, blocking or spamming your invulns at random is still more useful: you might by accident actually 'dodge' a mechanic, which 90% of the time still would've get you downed if you didn't, even if you have more base HP! Even worse, a well placed block/invuln/dodge completely annihilates a 1 million damaging shot/mechanic (if susceptible of course), while the transition from shroud to normal life pool is not even doing that anymore... even that has been nerfed (quite a while ago, but still)! Again, the whole base HP + shroud makes you far more survivable premise is a _very_ weak one in endgame PvE.

> > On the other hand, map roaming, leveling, doing hearts :D, etc. yea, you're right, having high base HP and having shroud, even having tanky minions is very useful ... But like you said, I am, and a lot of other Necro players are past that point, and want to be valuable in the adolescent part of PvE not just only in the stepping stones part! It's almost patronizing, really!

> >

> > Also, ANet has proved very well that you can make a class that does well in low AND high end PvE, be meta AND 'newbie' proof AND even does very well in both WvW and PvP .....

> > Warrior much?!!

>

> This person is saying the truth. Necromancer is objectively the least defensive class of all - it's only the beefiest one, and while it may help noobs and newbies in open world, being beefy has no value in end-game and instanced content. The reason was explained but I'll repeat - having access to blocks, evades and invulns allows to chain them when necessary, possibly avoiding every oneshot attack or attack that spawns minions (siax for example). If you are necro and have literally zero access to such maneuvers (which is criticized since 2013, I know, I was there), you are forced to facetank which really isn't effective outside of open world maps exploration. ANet never acknowledge that as a problem and never wanted to allow necro mains to be effective if they want to tryhard or minmax. I am one of the most tryharding necros I know (especially on power build, with slaying pots, sigils, infusions, fractal champion, consumable bundles, prestacking marks and kitten even ogre whistles, charr mortars and ember) and I will still be dramatically underperforming next to average weaver pug in my fractal party who doesn't use slaying pots/sigils and just repeats some basic half-baked rotation. It's the worst feeling ever but I love playing necromancer too much to change the class (and I don't really like the others) so this is very conflicting and for years I wish this was resolved somehow.

 

While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

 

 

Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

> > >

> > > I don't see the necro's inherent survivability useful everywhere out of META. Actually, I would even argue (like I said before) that in the full PvE endgame (T4 Fractals and Raids and maybe even map metas/world boss events), other survival methods (like I mentioned before: Invulns, Blocks, Dodges, Stabs, etc.) are a lot better, not _just_ in META. Even for low skilled players, I still think dodging, blocking or spamming your invulns at random is still more useful: you might by accident actually 'dodge' a mechanic, which 90% of the time still would've get you downed if you didn't, even if you have more base HP! Even worse, a well placed block/invuln/dodge completely annihilates a 1 million damaging shot/mechanic (if susceptible of course), while the transition from shroud to normal life pool is not even doing that anymore... even that has been nerfed (quite a while ago, but still)! Again, the whole base HP + shroud makes you far more survivable premise is a _very_ weak one in endgame PvE.

> > > On the other hand, map roaming, leveling, doing hearts :D, etc. yea, you're right, having high base HP and having shroud, even having tanky minions is very useful ... But like you said, I am, and a lot of other Necro players are past that point, and want to be valuable in the adolescent part of PvE not just only in the stepping stones part! It's almost patronizing, really!

> > >

> > > Also, ANet has proved very well that you can make a class that does well in low AND high end PvE, be meta AND 'newbie' proof AND even does very well in both WvW and PvP .....

> > > Warrior much?!!

> >

> > This person is saying the truth. Necromancer is objectively the least defensive class of all - it's only the beefiest one, and while it may help noobs and newbies in open world, being beefy has no value in end-game and instanced content. The reason was explained but I'll repeat - having access to blocks, evades and invulns allows to chain them when necessary, possibly avoiding every oneshot attack or attack that spawns minions (siax for example). If you are necro and have literally zero access to such maneuvers (which is criticized since 2013, I know, I was there), you are forced to facetank which really isn't effective outside of open world maps exploration. ANet never acknowledge that as a problem and never wanted to allow necro mains to be effective if they want to tryhard or minmax. I am one of the most tryharding necros I know (especially on power build, with slaying pots, sigils, infusions, fractal champion, consumable bundles, prestacking marks and kitten even ogre whistles, charr mortars and ember) and I will still be dramatically underperforming next to average weaver pug in my fractal party who doesn't use slaying pots/sigils and just repeats some basic half-baked rotation. It's the worst feeling ever but I love playing necromancer too much to change the class (and I don't really like the others) so this is very conflicting and for years I wish this was resolved somehow.

>

> While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

>

>

> Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

 

And you can't disregard what it takes for a weaver to be so good in fractals either. In [dT] you will rarely see a non-weaver dps in fractals. But when I pug I see a lot of them, and for a good reason.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

>

>

> Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

 

same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

you can make the same case about virtually any class.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> >

> >

> > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

>

> same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> you can make the same case about virtually any class.

 

However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

[Sublimatio.6981]

oh so what you see on lfg is the criteria for validity? that's not very convicning.

[Nephalem.8921]

5 hammer Guards were actually meta for 2 weeks in the past.

 

The dT guides and builds have small errors in them though. Spellbreaker should take phalanx when in a group without a harrier druid or 3 arcane weavers because he doesn't lose lots of dps and it helps a lot with might uptime during splits like on skorvald.

Also the TO guide doesn't mention a single portal.

Great site nevertheless.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> oh so what you see on lfg is the criteria for validity? that's not very convicning.

 

Nope, only your personal opinion is a criteria for validity. Peace!

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > >

> > >

> > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> >

> > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

>

> However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

 

Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> > >

> > > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

> >

> > However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

>

> Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

> Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

 

Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

[Sublimatio.6981]

wvw? this is still a thing?

[Catchyfx.5768]

 

> Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

 

Actually Its only mode where Is necro(ONLY scourge) ok(ONLY ok) zerging. You Can't even roam, pvp, endgame PvE... So yeah...thank god for that one spot(before nerfhammer strikes again) So you can do something.

[Feanor.2358]

"OK"? As in, "it is asked for in each and every zerg out there"? But why do I get surprised.... You're not asking for viability, you're asking to have all the advantages everywhere.

[Catchyfx.5768]

> "OK"? As in, "it is asked for in each and every zerg out there"? But why do I get surprised.... You're not asking for viability, you're asking to have all the advantages everywhere.

 

if playing my ele i can just swich some traitlines swap weapon and here we go, this work for every other class exept necro, we have that one thing(wvw). No need to be best, but solid builds. That's what is pissing me off. Thats what I want. Just swap build, weapons, gear ang go for Raid, or pvp(like other classes can). (no need to be meta but just be on the same level with others. Dear gods. I know i can play other classes if i dont like it. but its rly bad...need add tooltips to classes if you create a new one. Difficlty1-5

for begginers(necro) not good on endgame

for experienced(ele,or smthing) harder to play but more effective on endgame. If i was creating my first class i was thinking all of them are equal..

[Feanor.2358]

You can't have them all be equal, unless you make them identical. That is not the point of having different classes, or different skills, or different whatever. You'll always have something perform better in certain scenarios (and that includes "beginner usage"), while others will excel in others.

[Sister Saxifrage.7361]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > Edit: I should also add something more... When thinking about balance, you have to think about more than just the meta. The inherent survivability advantage I was speaking of is indeed of little use in the meta, but it becomes valuable out of it. It's effectively creating a choice for players of lesser skill, allowing them to trade damage potential for a safer and more relaxed gameplay. I totally get it feels bad when you're grown past this, but it is still something that has to be taken in consideration.

> > > >

> > > > I don't see the necro's inherent survivability useful everywhere out of META. Actually, I would even argue (like I said before) that in the full PvE endgame (T4 Fractals and Raids and maybe even map metas/world boss events), other survival methods (like I mentioned before: Invulns, Blocks, Dodges, Stabs, etc.) are a lot better, not _just_ in META. Even for low skilled players, I still think dodging, blocking or spamming your invulns at random is still more useful: you might by accident actually 'dodge' a mechanic, which 90% of the time still would've get you downed if you didn't, even if you have more base HP! Even worse, a well placed block/invuln/dodge completely annihilates a 1 million damaging shot/mechanic (if susceptible of course), while the transition from shroud to normal life pool is not even doing that anymore... even that has been nerfed (quite a while ago, but still)! Again, the whole base HP + shroud makes you far more survivable premise is a _very_ weak one in endgame PvE.

> > > > On the other hand, map roaming, leveling, doing hearts :D, etc. yea, you're right, having high base HP and having shroud, even having tanky minions is very useful ... But like you said, I am, and a lot of other Necro players are past that point, and want to be valuable in the adolescent part of PvE not just only in the stepping stones part! It's almost patronizing, really!

> > > >

> > > > Also, ANet has proved very well that you can make a class that does well in low AND high end PvE, be meta AND 'newbie' proof AND even does very well in both WvW and PvP .....

> > > > Warrior much?!!

> > >

> > > This person is saying the truth. Necromancer is objectively the least defensive class of all - it's only the beefiest one, and while it may help noobs and newbies in open world, being beefy has no value in end-game and instanced content. The reason was explained but I'll repeat - having access to blocks, evades and invulns allows to chain them when necessary, possibly avoiding every oneshot attack or attack that spawns minions (siax for example). If you are necro and have literally zero access to such maneuvers (which is criticized since 2013, I know, I was there), you are forced to facetank which really isn't effective outside of open world maps exploration. ANet never acknowledge that as a problem and never wanted to allow necro mains to be effective if they want to tryhard or minmax. I am one of the most tryharding necros I know (especially on power build, with slaying pots, sigils, infusions, fractal champion, consumable bundles, prestacking marks and kitten even ogre whistles, charr mortars and ember) and I will still be dramatically underperforming next to average weaver pug in my fractal party who doesn't use slaying pots/sigils and just repeats some basic half-baked rotation. It's the worst feeling ever but I love playing necromancer too much to change the class (and I don't really like the others) so this is very conflicting and for years I wish this was resolved somehow.

> >

> > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> >

> >

> > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

>

> And you can't disregard what it takes for a weaver to be so good in fractals either. In [dT] you will rarely see a non-weaver dps in fractals. But when I pug I see a lot of them, and for a good reason.

 

Mmmmmm, the reason is their position at the top of benchmark lists. Many garden-variety PUG weavers seem to think that just *having the meta weaver build* is all it takes to do meta weaver DPS, and they are so very wrong. I'm sure weaver is great at your level, but on the scrub PUG level I'd say the safety DPS class is DH. Weavers are sometimes great, often awful... and the awful ones are usually downbots as well. They would be better served taking a class with more sustain and learning to play fractals, before going in as the nakedest of glass cannons and trying to emulate a golem video.

 

EDIT: I hecked up. I thought you meant you see a lot of *weavers* in PUGs.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:

 

> Mmmmmm, the reason is their position at the top of benchmark lists. Many garden-variety PUG weavers seem to think that just *having the meta weaver build* is all it takes to do meta weaver DPS, and they are so very wrong. I'm sure weaver is great at your level, but on the scrub PUG level I'd say the safety DPS class is DH. Weavers are sometimes great, often awful... and the awful ones are usually downbots as well. They would be better served taking a class with more sustain and learning to play fractals, before going in as the nakedest of glass cannons and trying to emulate a golem video.

>

> EDIT: I hecked up. I thought you meant you see a lot of *weavers* in PUGs.

 

i would love for necro to have an effectiveness curve designed for the best of players just like weaver does. i think thats the entire point of whining about necro by the necro community

[Catchyfx.5768]

Not get kicked from group because of class Is obviously worst...that equal. I know they cannot be same. But every class have something to offer to group...And Faster rezzing Is JUST meh

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> > > >

> > > > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > > > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

> > >

> > > However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

> >

> > Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

> > Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

>

> Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

 

How many times do I have to say that PvE, WvW and PvP are complete different game modes, and ANet has proven before and will again in their next patch that they _can_ balance these game modes separately. So for all I care, you could regard them as different games altogether! So, in that case you're remark is as valuable as saying: **"Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of Diablo 3!"**

There are even different forums for it (just like Diablo 3 has, btw :) ).

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > > > > > @"DutchRiders.2871" said:

> > > > > > While there is alot of truth to this, there is also a reason 4 man necro +1 druid fractal parties were popular. Or why you can tank SH with swapping 1 trait. Being beefy is pretty good and you cannot fully disregard this.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Not having all raid bosses being turned into glorified golems would also help alot. Or weaver being so good in fractals.

> > > > >

> > > > > same can be said about 4 hammer guards 1 druid or other nonsense like that. and they apart from braindead build also have blocks, reflects, invulns.

> > > > > you can make the same case about virtually any class.

> > > >

> > > > However, 4 necros is a thing I've seen in the lfg, 4 guards isn't. I wouldn't play either, but the point stands.

> > >

> > > Outcasts tend to search for a safehaven, and often only find it amongst each other!

> > > Hmmm, come to think of it, it's one of the only things that _does_ fit the Necro's design: being the outcasts/pariah of all classes! ....

> >

> > Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of wvw.

>

> How many times do I have to say that PvE, WvW and PvP are complete different game modes, and ANet has proven before and will again in their next patch that they _can_ balance these game modes separately. So for all I care, you could regard them as different games altogether! So, in that case you're remark is as valuable as saying: **"Oh, poor outcast necromancers... the kings of Diablo 3!"**

> There are even different forums for it (just like Diablo 3 has, btw :) ).

 

Kek. But it is still the same game. The professions are the same, and their core designs are the same. Necromancer revolves around conditions and corruption. This makes it inherently stronger in pvp modes, because you primarily find boons on players, and inherently weaker in pve, for the same reason. You can't change that unless you split not just the skills, but the very concepts of the classes across game modes. Which is nether feasible, nor needed.

 

> @"Sublimatio.6981" said:

> > @"Sister Saxifrage.7361" said:

>

> > Mmmmmm, the reason is their position at the top of benchmark lists. Many garden-variety PUG weavers seem to think that just *having the meta weaver build* is all it takes to do meta weaver DPS, and they are so very wrong. I'm sure weaver is great at your level, but on the scrub PUG level I'd say the safety DPS class is DH. Weavers are sometimes great, often awful... and the awful ones are usually downbots as well. They would be better served taking a class with more sustain and learning to play fractals, before going in as the nakedest of glass cannons and trying to emulate a golem video.

> >

> > EDIT: I hecked up. I thought you meant you see a lot of *weavers* in PUGs.

>

> i would love for necro to have an effectiveness curve designed for the best of players just like weaver does. i think thats the entire point of whining about necro by the necro community

 

You'd have to give up the larger health pool and the shroud for that. They don't matter much at the high skill levels, but they are a huge advantage at the low ones.