Weaver fire/air - 48k dps

[MrRay.3027]

And now go into the real world, and see glass staff weavers dropping like flies trying to replicate such rotation.

 

Today, my pug fractal had 4 weavers (me included). I know two of them were running fire/air. They were dying all the time. Probably because they were staying really close to moving targets so they can hit them with those slow moving dual skills. For example, once I switched from staff to scepter at the captain mai trin fractal, we could finally finish it, since I could actually hit the boss.

 

[Stalkingwolf.6035]

looks like playing piano.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> > Just because there is another broken spec you should not think weaver is ok... Both weaver and firebrand will get nerfed soon.

>

> Yeah, but it's worth putting into perspective.

>

> My big worry is that Weaver, as an entire spec, will get nerfed hard when the real issue is one specific build, and even then only against large hitboxes. Specifically, the issue lies in those multi-hit skills like Ice Storm and Meteor Shower and how they can scale out of control with Weaver's traits. But no other weapon even comes _close_ to being this strong for Weaver, especially not against smaller hitboxes, so nerfing the traits themselves would make the other weapons unusable for Weaver. The spec itself doesn't need a nerf--Ice Bow and staff need a nerf.

 

And then you say goodbye to power ele. All that remains for us is the boring condi build and that ruins the class completely for me.

 

Scaling with the big hitbox isn't something bad. It creates some diversity - you get an incentive to pick class/build A over class/build B depending on the encounter.

[CrazybikE.1524]

> @Stalkingwolf.6035 said:

> looks like playing piano.

 

playing ele was always like that

[maddoctor.2738]

How much damage does it do on small targets?

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > > @Ryouzanpaku.1273 said:

> > > Just because there is another broken spec you should not think weaver is ok... Both weaver and firebrand will get nerfed soon.

> >

> > Yeah, but it's worth putting into perspective.

> >

> > My big worry is that Weaver, as an entire spec, will get nerfed hard when the real issue is one specific build, and even then only against large hitboxes. Specifically, the issue lies in those multi-hit skills like Ice Storm and Meteor Shower and how they can scale out of control with Weaver's traits. But no other weapon even comes _close_ to being this strong for Weaver, especially not against smaller hitboxes, so nerfing the traits themselves would make the other weapons unusable for Weaver. The spec itself doesn't need a nerf--Ice Bow and staff need a nerf.

>

> And then you say goodbye to power ele. All that remains for us is the boring condi build and that ruins the class completely for me.

>

> Scaling with the big hitbox isn't something bad. It creates some diversity - you get an incentive to pick class/build A over class/build B depending on the encounter.

 

Ele needs a power build that works on small hitboxes. Badly. Hell, most professions need their Power builds buffed. The condi meta is kinda getting out of hand, especially with how many of the PoF specs were designed for condi.

 

What I mean is that something's gotta change with other weapons, too. Rework sword as a power weapon maybe, or bring scepter back up to a usable level. It already sucks that power Ele only exists against large hitboxes and only with one weapon and a conjure. That's not a very good state of affairs either. We badly need another power option.

[Feanor.2358]

Sure, they wrecked Scepter a few months ago only to bring it back. Such large-scale changes affecting all the weapons across the board won't happen. Not at once, in any case. Regardless what they do, if they wreck icebow and staff in the way they did scepter, we'll be facing months-long period where we simply don't have a viable power build.

 

P.S. I don't think Sword will ever be a power weapon. Too much focus on dueling, you can't have evade, barrier, gap close AND top power damage all on the same weapon.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> You can't have evade, barrier, gap close AND top power damage all on the same weapon.

 

Huh why not, you're an ele, the squishiest class in the game, and you're using a melee weapon. Its high risk, high reward.

 

 

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Feanor.2358 said:

> P.S. I don't think Sword will ever be a power weapon. Too much focus on dueling, you can't have evade, barrier, gap close AND top power damage all on the same weapon.

 

Why not? That pretty accurately describes Mesmer sword (except barrier, I guess), and it's Mesmer's best power weapon by a huge margin. Yeah, it doesn't have barrier, but Weaver barely does on its weapon skills, and Mesmer sword's evade lasts a long time and is also a high-DPS attack. I'd say it evens out.

 

Plus, it's got to be good at _something_, and I don't think power damage is inherently a worse choice for it than condition damage would be. Every weapon should in theory be usable in PvE, but right now sword has no niche at all--if you're going power it's horrible, and if you're going condition damage it's beaten easily by dagger. So it has to have its damage boosted _somehow_, and if we're talking about how Elementalist needs a good power build, well, sword's right there just asking for a niche.

[DoM.8396]

Does anyone read patch notes?

 

> Fixed a bug in which stat conversion traits were converting temporary stat increases from buffs, traits, and boons.

>

It will no longer scale from other effects such as boons (might) and banners. This lowers the ferocity of the Weaver a bit and in return lowers its damage. By how much? I'm not sure yet I will test tonight or speak with Fennec or Contam to see if they tested it post patch yet.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @DoM.8396 said:

> Does anyone read patch notes?

>

> > Fixed a bug in which stat conversion traits were converting temporary stat increases from buffs, traits, and boons.

> >

> It will no longer scale from other effects such as boons (might) and banners. This lowers the ferocity of the Weaver a bit and in return lowers its damage. By how much? I'm not sure yet I will test tonight or speak with Fennec or Contam to see if they tested it post patch yet.

 

Yeah, I'm really interested to see how much of the problem was that bug. Same for Firebrand, though I suspect that's going to be hilariously high even after the bug fix.

 

Also, it makes me sad that even with a bug massively increasing Weaver's Ferocity, no power build other than staff was good. :/

[lLobo.7960]

I think staff should remain a high power dps weapon against big hit boxes. I hope they don't over nerf it.

One thing it could use more is being immobile to deliver the big attacks, like it does with meteor shower. Those attacks look great on a golem, but in reality are really hard to execute. Not only you need the boss to stay in the AoE, but you need to cast it when you know you wont be interrupted by any mechanics (need to dogde? big dps lost). This is the risk/reward of the big staff attacks (I believe pile driver follows this to a certain point). While dagger and sword offer a more reliable dps (although lower) by the cost of having to stay in close range.

[Leggendalex.4659]

> @lLobo.7960 said:

> I think staff should remain a high power dps weapon against big hit boxes. I hope they don't over nerf it.

> One thing it could use more is being immobile to deliver the big attacks, like it does with meteor shower. Those attacks look great on a golem, but in reality are really hard to execute. Not only you need the boss to stay in the AoE, but you need to cast it when you know you wont be interrupted by any mechanics (need to dogde? big dps lost). This is the risk/reward of the big staff attacks (I believe pile driver follows this to a certain point). While dagger and sword offer a more reliable dps (although lower) by the cost of having to stay in close range.

 

i agree 100%, it` hard to keep the rotation up, is an high risk high reward build and you are like a piece of paper, and we also have to consider that there are a lot of area attacks so is not that effective against moving targets

[Nowaki.2136]

Seems like fire brand and weaver are the scourge and spell breaker of the PvE xD

Anyway let's not forget those numbers are fake cuz of he modifiers bug, let's wait for the real numbers before complaining as we already do on pvp forums.

[Zoid.2568]

Use your rotation on real enemies. Hitting a golem is not realistiskt and proves nothing.

[Feanor.2358]

> @Zoid.2568 said:

> Use your rotation on real enemies. Hitting a golem is not realistiskt and proves nothing.

 

Hitting the golem is a standard test now and it gives a pretty good idea what to expect from a dps build. Don't worry, I perform better on Weaver with a shabby rotation than I perform on the Tempest which I mained since HoT.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @Zoid.2568 said:

> Use your rotation on real enemies. Hitting a golem is not realistiskt and proves nothing.

 

While it's not "realistic," Elementalist staff DPS is pretty well-established, and this rotation isn't much harder to pull off than the Tempest version. While this exact situation is rare in the actual game, it's almost never the case that a build has a huge gap in its relative performance between golem and a real raid fight--nothing's ever overpowered on the golem and then underpowered in an actual fight, for example.

[mygamingid.5816]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @Zoid.2568 said:

> > Use your rotation on real enemies. Hitting a golem is not realistiskt and proves nothing.

>

> While it's not "realistic," Elementalist staff DPS is pretty well-established, and this rotation isn't much harder to pull off than the Tempest version. While this exact situation is rare in the actual game, it's almost never the case that a build has a huge gap in its relative performance between golem and a real raid fight--nothing's ever overpowered on the golem and then underpowered in an actual fight, for example.

 

Any time you have a power that channels and roots, you don't get the full benefit of the power in an active battle. You might complete the channel sometimes, but you won't every time, and that hits DPS hard when a power accounts for 20%+ of your maximum damage.

 

That said, I'd agree that while you won't ever hit golem numbers in a raid, you will generally hit proportionally. Meteor Swarm just puts Staff Ele on a steeper drop off, so its losses are a little greater than others'.

[Skuzz.6580]

Don't be fooled by the Firebrand benchmark people have posted.. a large part of that dps comes from allies around him. If the damage his allies did didn't show up on his damage meter then the personal dps would be way, way lower. Might not even get higher than 32k honestly.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @Skuzz.6580 said:

> Don't be fooled by the Firebrand benchmark people have posted.. a large part of that dps comes from allies around him. If the damage his allies did didn't show up on his damage meter then the personal dps would be way, way lower. Might not even get higher than 32k honestly.

 

And this is bad how? This is exactly how venoms work. Same thing with firebrand ashe's. They share to nearby allies (not very hard to get 4 nearby allies when u have 10 in a squad) but the damage is based on the casters stats, not the players it gets shared to.

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @mygamingid.5816 said:

> That said, I'd agree that while you won't ever hit golem numbers in a raid, you will generally hit proportionally. Meteor Swarm just puts Staff Ele on a steeper drop off, so its losses are a little greater than others'.

 

Yeah, ultimately that's what I mean. If you rank builds by golem DPS and then take a look at how they perform in reality, many will have lower numbers, but the actual rankings will stay about the same. That's why golem DPS is relevant: not because it's a target number for actual play, but because it gives you a rough idea of where builds stand in relation to one another. You're also right that Ele is going to have a sharper drop-off in reality as enemies move out of Meteor Shower and Lava Font.

 

> @Skuzz.6580 said:

> Don't be fooled by the Firebrand benchmark people have posted.. a large part of that dps comes from allies around him. If the damage his allies did didn't show up on his damage meter then the personal dps would be way, way lower. Might not even get higher than 32k honestly.

 

Why shouldn't allies count? That extra damage they're doing thanks to Ashes of the Just wouldn't be there if the Firebrand wasn't there, so it counts as DPS that the Firebrand brings.

 

I suppose you could make the same claim that whatever DPS increase the group gets from a Chronomancer's quickness and alacrity should count as DPS the Chronomancer brings. But a) that's a lot harder to measure, and b) it's not like people don't value Chronomancers, y'know? The only difference here is that the Firebrand's damage boost is more easily measurable and also tied to the Firebrand's stats, not their allies'.

[lucadiro.4519]

> @Skuzz.6580 said:

> Don't be fooled by the Firebrand benchmark people have posted.. a large part of that dps comes from allies around him. If the damage his allies did didn't show up on his damage meter then the personal dps would be way, way lower. Might not even get higher than 32k honestly.

 

What??? The damage it provide "from allies" is part of his dps... its the same thing of arcane power or thieves venoms... it's your own dps even if it come from Allies that hit the enemy.

Allies there are needed just to transfer burning to the enemy... but it's your dps and scale with your stat.

 

[lucadiro.4519]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

 

> I suppose you could make the same claim that whatever DPS increase the group gets from a Chronomancer's quickness and alacrity should count as DPS the Chronomancer brings. But a) that's a lot harder to measure, and b) it's not like people don't value Chronomancers, y'know? The only difference here is that the Firebrand's damage boost is more easily measurable and also tied to the Firebrand's stats, not their allies'.

 

It's a totally different thing.... ps, chrono and Druid buff your stat, while what firebrand (again same thing of arcane power and thieves venoms) is use you as a tool to transfer burning to the enemy. You could hit for 1 damage and still the firebrand would be at 50k dps.

It scale with his stat and it is displayed in his dps for a reason

 

[Agent Noun.7350]

> @lucadiro.4519 said:

> > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

>

> > I suppose you could make the same claim that whatever DPS increase the group gets from a Chronomancer's quickness and alacrity should count as DPS the Chronomancer brings. But a) that's a lot harder to measure, and b) it's not like people don't value Chronomancers, y'know? The only difference here is that the Firebrand's damage boost is more easily measurable and also tied to the Firebrand's stats, not their allies'.

>

> It's a totally different thing.... ps, chrono and Druid buff your stat, while what firebrand (again same thing of arcane power and thieves venoms) is use you as a tool to transfer burning to the enemy. You could hit for 1 damage and still the firebrand would be at 50k dps.

> It scale with his stat and it is displayed in his dps for a reason

 

I'm not arguing that it shouldn't count--sorry if that was unclear. It clearly counts, because that's DPS that wouldn't be there if the Firebrand wasn't. And one big difference between Firebrand and Chronomancer, even beyond what you said, is that Chronomancer brings negligible DPS itself, while Firebrand brings respectable DPS even without Ashes of the Just massively boosting it on allies. I wasn't trying to say that Firebrand is fine or anything.

[lucadiro.4519]

> @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> > @lucadiro.4519 said:

> > > @"Agent Noun.7350" said:

> >

> > > I suppose you could make the same claim that whatever DPS increase the group gets from a Chronomancer's quickness and alacrity should count as DPS the Chronomancer brings. But a) that's a lot harder to measure, and b) it's not like people don't value Chronomancers, y'know? The only difference here is that the Firebrand's damage boost is more easily measurable and also tied to the Firebrand's stats, not their allies'.

> >

> > It's a totally different thing.... ps, chrono and Druid buff your stat, while what firebrand (again same thing of arcane power and thieves venoms) is use you as a tool to transfer burning to the enemy. You could hit for 1 damage and still the firebrand would be at 50k dps.

> > It scale with his stat and it is displayed in his dps for a reason

>

> I'm not arguing that it shouldn't count--sorry if that was unclear. It clearly counts, because that's DPS that wouldn't be there if the Firebrand wasn't. And one big difference between Firebrand and Chronomancer, even beyond what you said, is that Chronomancer brings negligible DPS itself, while Firebrand brings respectable DPS even without Ashes of the Just massively boosting it on allies. I wasn't trying to say that Firebrand is fine or anything.

 

Ye I got you man don't worry!