Full Counter

[DaShi.1368]

Single target daze or removing the unblockable I could see. However, they shouldn't reduce the damage. The warrior has to give up adrenaline to use it and it is very avoidable in 1v1 or small fights. Frankly, removing anything else will take it out of play completely.

[DaShi.1368]

> @sinject.4607 said:

 

>

> Go look at the Thief sub forum right now and look at every Deadeye thread. It's ALL complaints or people trying to cope and find niche uses for the elite.

>

 

Yeah, I wonder if they really believe anyone is going to fall for that. It was like the list of buffs they wanted for DE before release. It was the most OP wishlist I've ever seen on this forum, but they seemed to be taking it seriously. DE requires different play than other thief builds, but it is far from ineffective. Thief players just want it to do everything instantly.

 

[Caedmon.6798]

> >

> > I wonder why random warriors players on the forums are so good while the top mesmer and ranger players, who have frequently done well in tournaments before, have a "L2P" issue all of a sudden and therefore have to play 100% passive (e.g. Frosty) or reroll to spellbreaker (e.g. Misha).

> >

> >

>

> I couldn't agree anymore. it's the darndest thing lol. friggin ''frosty has to l2p''

>

> ''obviously there is some secret society of of beyond pro players level hiding in the shadows with low ratings, zero partipation in any tournaments and no credentials to substantiate their claims, however when asked to prove thier worth, they will decline as this level of ''competion is below them ofcourse'' ''

>

>

 

What does low ratings or participation in any tournaments has to do with someone knowing how to play ? Speaking for myself,i play since 2012 and have been an avid pvper for years.I stopped actively pvping because i find wvw more fun,there being more to do in general and being bored of pvp in about 3 matches of doing the same thing,bored of conquest as a whole.Not having made any claims and never been asked to "prove my worth".Besides if you watch his vid you see hes playing passively without doing any damage or pressuring him properly so theres not much to defend,yes he played it bad.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

I think the guardian pull is one of the most ridiculous skills added to the game once you get hit and have the chain + reveal theres no counterplay/getting away. a stealth reliant character is an easy enough kill when in close range and has revealed on and getting pulled into random cleave+traps = for sure death for that stealth character. On top of this you cannot dodge the actual pull they will pull you mid dodge frame and it has like 5000 range you cant even go from collisseums mid to the exit ramps without being pulled. It pretty much interrupts dodge.

 

After it pulls me i also get revealed in the middle of mid which is almost always instant death on mes or thief then once there you stay revealed after the pull it seems. Reveal should not stay after they pull you. Pulled into random cleave and traps then target called while staying revealed for someone who relies on stealth that is more than overkill.

 

I'd rather be one shot by a deadeye than pulled into random cleave with revealed.

[Dralor.3701]

So how many complaining about full counter were defending the counter play of guard traps in HoT?

[masskillerxploit.2165]

I like how this does counter bad players, however.. its just to easy to land because of 8sec cd, and it does way to much damage... It should be like a 2k steal dmg or something.

[Darknicrofia.2604]

> @Dralor.3701 said:

> So how many complaining about full counter were defending the counter play of guard traps in HoT?

 

And ToF at final count was nerfed a total of 8 times and to this day still receives complaints, if your point is that full counter deserves equal attention in toning it down I fully agree.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

Same reason Surge of the Mists was gutted, don't be a double moral shit and defend this clearly overtuned skill that does more, is easier to use (more forgivable) and on half the cooldown. This is why ANET gets confused with balance the whole time (one of the reasons at least), because of the huge amounts of biased people with such biased "arguments".

[Loop.8106]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> I think the guardian pull is one of the most ridiculous skills added to the game once you get hit and have the chain + reveal theres no counterplay/getting away. a stealth reliant character is an easy enough kill when in close range and has revealed on and getting pulled into random cleave+traps = for sure death for that stealth character. On top of this you cannot dodge the actual pull they will pull you mid dodge frame and it has like 5000 range you cant even go from collisseums mid to the exit ramps without being pulled. It pretty much interrupts dodge.

>

> After it pulls me i also get revealed in the middle of mid which is almost always instant death on mes or thief then once there you stay revealed after the pull it seems. Reveal should not stay after they pull you. Pulled into random cleave and traps then target called while staying revealed for someone who relies on stealth that is more than overkill.

>

> I'd rather be one shot by a deadeye than pulled into random cleave with revealed.

 

Fun fact, the pull has 1200 range and 29 seconds cooldown. Unlike the Spellbreaker grandmaster TRAIT that has 8 second duration, also reveals and a 12 second cooldown.

So the Warriors pull is arguable stronger than the Dragonhunters with the pulsing might and 2/3rds uptime potential.

 

Also, the pull is a DH class mechanic. Judging by all the Warrior mains, class mechanics should hard counter other classes class mechanics. They should probably just remove the cast time and increase the velocity by 400%. Since you can still just Stability / Stunbreak out of it, and even if you do get hit, it's not like the end of the world. It only hits for like 1k, pulls, reveals and knockdowns.

In fact, they should probably just go ahead and add the launch 100 metres into the air bug back as it gave it some nice flavor and gave guardians a much needed buff.

I don't see why Guardians arent allowed to have a viable build and why people just expect them to be a free kill.

[R E F L H E X.8413]

> @"R E F L H E X.8413" said:

> getting pulled into random cleave+traps = for sure death for that stealth character. It pretty much interrupts dodge.

>

> @Loop.8106 said:

> a free kill.

 

I have yet to see a warrior pull me or latch onto me for a long ass revealed time. Some kind of small reveal isnt a problem but the duration seems as long as they keep you chained then they pull you and it stays revealed with no chain on you from what ive experienced.

 

I havent played dh because its support for the team seemed weaker than core guard. I havent even read the skill only played against it. I made a really good support guard that got almost everything it used removed.

[LughLongArm.5460]

The CD on this is way to short, Should be like 15 sec CD and remove the unblockbale or the daze.

[Jinx.4619]

I rather face SB than a good core warrior those guy regen like hulk, hit like a superman slam and dodge like daredevil teef.

 

[Exciton.8942]

I really hope full counter can be designed in a way that you benefit more from countering strong attacks.

 

I had a 2v2 fight today where the spellbreaker just keeps full counter my clone attacks and do damage to me and my teammate. It feels so braindead to me. He essentially just spams full counter on CD while getting all the benefit.

[Vitali.5039]

To me Full Counter should have 10 sec CD, 2 CD reduction on succesful burst hit (no ICD) and a barrier that scales with the incoming damage avoided while invulnerable (up to 25% hp).

[Khenzy.9348]

My main grips with this skill is the low CD, the super high range (it covers almost the entire point, it's stupid) and the ridiculously high damage for such a defensive skill, it also provides like a million other effects to the warrior and the opponent, like a steal on steroids. You eventually run out of dodges against a spellbreaker everytime, and due to their insanely high sustain, they are free to proceed to do their full DPS PvE rotation on you without problems.

 

I'm starting to see 4 spellbreakers per game, they can bunker like a true bunker and do insane damage. Hotfix them asap Anet, please.

 

Also, take a look at Scourges too. Thank you.

[Caedmon.6798]

> @Exciton.8942 said:

> I really hope full counter can be designed in a way that you benefit more from countering strong attacks.

>

> I had a 2v2 fight today where the spellbreaker just keeps full counter my clone attacks and do damage to me and my teammate. It feels so braindead to me. He essentially just spams full counter on CD while getting all the benefit.

 

It has a 300 range....How about you adapt your playstyle or move out of this 300 range when counter is up ?

 

Its hilarious how its already considered "braindead" by people unable to learn how to counter it.

 

@Khenzy,Our burst damage on dagger is mediocre,counter is our actual "burst" damage.All our other weaps have acces to level 1 bursts,meaning we also do lower damage on them than compared to core for e.g,we stack only 1 adren hp stack per burst and only cleanse 1 condi per burst.Strip away counter damage and we dont have much else.

[Dralor.3701]

> @Darknicrofia.2604 said:

> > @Dralor.3701 said:

> > So how many complaining about full counter were defending the counter play of guard traps in HoT?

>

> And ToF at final count was nerfed a total of 8 times and to this day still receives complaints, if your point is that full counter deserves equal attention in toning it down I fully agree.

 

> @Darknicrofia.2604 said:

> > @Dralor.3701 said:

> > So how many complaining about full counter were defending the counter play of guard traps in HoT?

>

> And ToF at final count was nerfed a total of 8 times and to this day still receives complaints, if your point is that full counter deserves equal attention in toning it down I fully agree.

 

My point is the forum is full of hypocrisy. General mentality is only my class is allowed to have nice things, nerf everything else.

 

It is unfortunate we don't have better visibility of how well certain classes/builds are performing like in other games.

[Exciton.8942]

> @Caedmon.6798 said:

> > @Exciton.8942 said:

> > I really hope full counter can be designed in a way that you benefit more from countering strong attacks.

> >

> > I had a 2v2 fight today where the spellbreaker just keeps full counter my clone attacks and do damage to me and my teammate. It feels so braindead to me. He essentially just spams full counter on CD while getting all the benefit.

>

> It has a 300 range....How about you adapt your playstyle or move out of this 300 range when counter is up ?

>

> Its hilarious how its already considered "braindead" by people unable to learn how to counter it.

>

> @Khenzy,Our burst damage on dagger is mediocre,counter is our actual "burst" damage.All our other weaps have acces to level 1 bursts,meaning we also do lower damage on them than compared to core for e.g,we stack only 1 adren hp stack per burst and only cleanse 1 condi per burst.Strip away counter damage and we dont have much else.

 

No. You got it wrong.

 

All the guy did is full counter while getting close to my teammate my clone attacks gonna hit him any way. It is pretty stupid I am doing negative work in a 2v2 simply by summoning clones. So you think I should just not summon clones at all? Remember my teammate has to stay on point to contest while I am squishier and have to stay outside most of the time. It is so easy for the spellbreaker to get close to him.

 

There is no counterplay at all.

[Mikeskies.1536]

Spellbreaker is a PvP spec only. It is meant to be top-tier. There is ample time to not proc Full Counter, or to dodge if you do proc it. The entire point of Spellbreaker is to be a high pressure melee class. Full Counter is probably the only skill that has a guaranteed hit if it gets activated. Landing Dagger and Greatsword skills are difficult due to their short range.

 

Playing as a Spellbreaker, I don't have problems with dealing with Full Counter of other Spellbreakers, and that's not even with using Full Counter on Full Counter. I just know how the mechanic works and am prepared to deal with the consequences. And, if I mistime my own Full Counter or it gets dodged, I am left exposed and have increased difficulty in executing my combos. In my opinion, Mesmers are more obnoxious with their unending chain of evades and distorts, combined with burst damage and control. But that's how that spec plays in PvP and you have to adapt around it. Same as Spellbreaker.

[Kuya.6495]

The daze definitely needs to stay as it synergies with SB traits. Maybe what can be toned down is either the damage (pvp only) or removing the unblockable.

[Solori.6025]

> @sinject.4607 said:

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > @sinject.4607 said:

> > > > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > > > @sinject.4607 said:

> > > > > Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

> > > >

> > > > do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

> > > >

> > > > as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

> > > >

> > >

> > > If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

> > >

> > > *To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.*

> > >

> > > baseline Steal:

> > > * a 1200 range teleport

> > > * mediocre single use skill IF it lands

> > > * on a 30 second cooldown.

> > >

> > > baseline Full Counter:

> > > * gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc

> > > * an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+

> > > * 2 seconds of stability

> > > * 1/2sec daze

> > > * on an 8 second cooldown

> > >

> > > to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

> >

> > I actually didn't buy the expac and am still playing gunflame or DH (I can just proc full counter from range and ignore it lol) , but yeah dude keep projecting. keep thinking it's personal bias, and continue with the attacks. it doesn't make you look good, and it's wrong so whatever.

> >

> > all I said was it's the elite spec's mechanic so it should be good, and that comparing it to berserker is unfair due to recent nerfs. like, I don't expect photon forge to be terrible, or any of the other mechanics. they should ideally be good.

> >

> > elite specs are meant to be upgrades. it's evidenced in the design, not in anet's vapid PR speak. so I expect the mechanics they add to be actually good. considering the utilities are poor, and the weapon isn't that great it's no surprise full counter is good, there's little reason other than that to pick the spec for pvp.

> >

> > core warrior is only good vs Berserker due to nerfs. don't kid yourself. also core thief and core ranger viable? lol maybe in a solo queue clown fiesta but not in a tournament. you would have to be.... god I don't even have a word... but if I did it would be a rude one, and I would use it to describe the level of intelligence somone would need to slot core thief or core ranger in a team. lol.

> >

> > tbh. I feel like you don't know anything if you think core ranger is a good pick, and honestly don't know why anyone would value your opinions on balance at all considering that.

> >

> > anyhow. it might well need shaves. I can't say 100%. but warrior is a class that is historically overnerfed in PvP. it gets reduced to dog tier all the time, and usually because of forum QQ. I would hate to see it happen another time. it's nice for things to be viable.

>

> literally everything you said is wrong and you've made it painfully obvious you're a low-tier player that hasn't made it out of bronze yet.

>

> Anet has clearly shown in their recent adjustments they now actually are attempting to make elite specs just another playstyle as opposed to direct upgrades, which is why people have issue with Spellbreaker/Scourge when almost every other PoF elite is on par with (or worse than) their core/HoT counterparts. core warrior and beserker are both fine, you guys just can't faceroll a stupid build that passively keeps you alive on them anymore and you wanna complain about it like it was the end of times and getting an overpowered PoF spec is only fair for all your hardships suffered at the evil hand of Anet lmao.

>

> and yes, just because people in your MMR range or you yourself are incapable of playing core Thief or Ranger doesn't mean its bad. i've played largely core s/d Thief since they made the changes to Acro and S/D and can easily beat Daredevils/Deadeyes and pretty much every other spec in the game. same goes for Ranger, which people have been playing for a while for it's damage capability over Druid's emphasis on sustain.

>

>

>

> > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > @Solori.6025 said:

> > > > @sinject.4607 said:

> > > > > @choovanski.5462 said:

> > > > > > @sinject.4607 said:

> > > > > > Full Counter is definitely the most over rewarding skill in the game right now. every other PoF Elite Spec isn’t a direct upgrade as Anet have been trying to do, yet it’s clear Spellbreaker and Scourge are head over heels better than their core/HoT counterparts. there’s a reason why this is easily the most viewed thread on the pvp forums as of late.

> > > > >

> > > > > do remember tho, berserker was nerfed so much it became worse than core warrior just before PoF. so comparing the two specialisations isn’t really fair.

> > > > >

> > > > > as far as full counter goes, is it worse than steal, continuum split etc? like it’s good, but it’s the only thing you get from spellbreaker- & you have to give up t2 & t3 bursts, which is a lot of cc/damage lost. so it should be a strong skill.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > If it's such a steep investment then why does literally every person playing PoF Warrior go for it, and experience nothing but net gain? Anet actually did a really good job of making core specs viable, it was never something specific to warrior. Core thief can absolutely compete with HoT/PoF specs very easily, as can core ranger, guardian, etc.

> > > >

> > > > *To compare Steal with Full Counter is a complete joke and really exemplifies how desperate you are to keep a broken mechanic intact.*

> > > >

> > > > baseline Steal:

> > > > * a 1200 range teleport

> > > > * mediocre single use skill IF it lands

> > > > * on a 30 second cooldown.

> > > >

> > > > baseline Full Counter:

> > > > * gives you full damage immunity for the duration of the attack and an additional 1/2 second after proc

> > > > * an AoE UNBLOCKABLE attack that can crit for 3-4k+

> > > > * 2 seconds of stability

> > > > * 1/2sec daze

> > > > * on an 8 second cooldown

> > > >

> > > > to complain about having to invest in one traitline to make an already really strong skill even stronger is just a laughable joke when thief has needed trickery since the beginning of the game to make Steal even passable as a our only mechanic.

> > >

> > > Isn't deadeye oneshotting people from range?

> > > Why are you comparing two opposite spectrums?

> > > Did you not look at the nerfs to berseker that made it worse than core warrior?

> > > I feel like you started this post with no clue about what you are even complaining about.

> > >

> > > Go deadeye and pick people off like everyone else that got PoF

> > >

> >

> > I know right? class that hits for 25-30k with one skill complains about 3-4k damage.

> >

> > then tells us core ranger is viable.

> >

> > who is this person?

>

> Deadeye can at most hit for 8-12k with a skill that is insanely avoidable, on a weaponset everyone is saying is useless, on an elite that is widely considered to be the worst in PvP period (see the: Which PoF Elite Do You Want Least On Your Team thread). Anyone who complains about Deadeye might as well excuse themselves from this discussion. I dunno who you think you are, but your IQ is probably around the same as warrior's APM.

 

1. I find it funny you can avoid a ranged bullet through all the animation clutter but cant avoid a character running towards you with a big yellow bubble around them.

Then find the audacity to complain about it.

2. Since you cant read (because no where in my post did I say " deadeye is stronk) I'll take the IQ comment as you projecting and being terrible at the game that you came on the forums day 2 of the expac to wine (and cheese :P) about a melee bubble that has an obvious animation, and a weakness just like you pointed out for the DE

 

You produce comedic gold I'll give you that.

"I can dodge a long range attack, but I really don't know what to do when I see a GIANT YELLOW BUBBLE walking towards me. please nerf"

 

Edit:If you drop SA and go DA you can snipe upwards of 14k, this makes you a little more defensless against condies but, 1-2 shotting classes is funny to me

[choovanski.5462]

> @Kuya.6495 said:

> The daze definitely needs to stay as it synergies with SB traits. Maybe what can be toned down is either the damage (pvp only) or removing the unblockable.

 

yeah, the daze needs to be there. it’s only a 1/2 sec daze anyhow, it’s not like its a 2 sec stun lol.

 

a range reduction, or making it only target the player who proced the counter could be good nerfs.

i would cut it down to a 200 range frontal cone, & cut the damage scaling to 1.5 myself.

 

@"Solori.6025" yeah, sinject is a funny one. he accused me of wanting spellbreaker to be op so i could get easy wins, when he knows i just have HoT lol. he’s not working with the brainpower of a 10-speed.

 

i’ve linked a video of tells that kind dude made, if anyone wants to learn them. they are a lot bigger than those on deadeye lol

>!

[Erzian.5218]

> @Solori.6025 said:

> "I can dodge a long range attack, but I really don't know what to do when I see a GIANT YELLOW BUBBLE walking towards me. please nerf"

I wonder how many years it will take you to figure out that fullcounter can be timed to actually get the counterattack instead of being randomly used on recharge.

 

But at least:

> You produce comedic gold I'll give you that.

 

 

 

[SkyFurY.6057]

Fullcounter is fine in my opinion.

 

The only nerf i could see here is range and even if then in PVP ONLY.

[Solori.6025]

> @Erzian.5218 said:

> > @Solori.6025 said:

> > "I can dodge a long range attack, but I really don't know what to do when I see a GIANT YELLOW BUBBLE walking towards me. please nerf"

> I wonder how many years it will take you to figure out that fullcounter can be timed to actually get the counterattack instead of being randomly used on recharge.

>

> But at least:

> > You produce comedic gold I'll give you that.

>

>

>

 

Wait.. like, baiting dodges and then using your big burst attack and/or setup?

Like people have been doing since 2012..

 

Are you really trying to use the timed argument now?