Your thoughts on the Holy Trinity abscence

[castlemanic.3198]

There are 5 pages and I'm not really in the mood to read all of it, so here are my personal thoughts on the matter:

 

I like both systems. I like the absence of the holy trinity and I like what the holy trinity does to class design and game design. I absolutely adore the ability for every class to sustain itself through a self-heal and self-protection abilities but I also absolutely adore support, healing and tank roles as well. I like that GW2 is different, but I also kind of have a desire to play a healing role with my favourite classes (so far it's a mixed bag, I can pull off a pretty good mix of tanking/healing with a chronomancer build I have and mesmers are my favourite class anyway so that rocks, but guardian I have a bit of a harder time adapting to condition damage rather than flat damage for firebrand, still awesome though). So there are definitely class types that can stand out and do healing or tanking in a more holy trinity type manner, but also it's stretching the limits of what a class can do to pull that off and that has to be acknowledged.

Overall, I do enjoy the system that GW2 has, it works for my more casual taste and it really supports the class types I want to play (self sustaining with the ability to aid allies when called upon), but there are times that I miss having a more traditional holy trinity system. Only at times though, I'm glad I can swap between GW2 and another game with more traditional holy trinity systems.

[runeblade.7514]

> @"Sidartha.9512" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > If ANet does make a trinity, I would like it if the tank role be gone and replaced with Control role. Which instead of surviving stats like toughness and vitality, there is hard CC(disables, stuns, daze) and soft cc(chill, cripple, immobilize, weakness) stat.

> >

> >

>

> IMO this is an example of..why not both? I have always thought the trinity system should just be improved and expanded on not removed. Keep the roles but get more creative on how they are performed. EQ (and other MMOs) sort of did this but it could be expanded further. To say that there was just a trinity system and you were "locked into a role" doesn't really explain how the trinity really worked in practice.

>

> In EQ there were single target tanks that could absorb high dmg but didn't have great aggro (warriors) and there were AoE tanks that could hold aggro on multiple mobs with AE stuns but couldn't mitigate dmg as well (paladins). There were tanks that could hold aggro really well on single targets but couldn't mitigate damage as well (Shadow Knights). There were tanks that could mitigate damage (plate wearing tanks) and there were tanks that could avoid damage but had no snap aggro (monks). Why not expand this by creating another form of tank like a caster that can lock a target down with spells or mitigate damage with spells? You could also have a root based tank for a ranger or druid type of character. In this way you keep the role but expand it out to other classes so it's more readily available for groups.

>

> Same for healing. Yes there was a healing role in EQ but that doesn't tell the whole story. Clerics may have been the most powerful pure healers but they only excelled at buffs and direct healing while druids excelled at HoTs and teleporting. Clerics were pretty bad dps unless it was an undead creature and they could be pretty good. Why not expand on that sort of thing to make healers more versatile?

 

Whenever I bring this up, people always ask me "why not both?"

 

First understand that there is no proper aggro system that allows player make full use of toughness and vitality for pve. It does absolutely nothing to protect the party at all if it is in open world PvE or fractals. Right now, it just serves as a crutch for badly skilled players. For raids, it is for a badly designed mechanic that lets one player move the boss. Bringing a high toughness and vitality tank is just absurd compared to bringing the bare minimum of toughness that is barely above 9 other players.

 

Secondly, ANet cannot balance toughness and vitality well in pvp. Every defensive amulet in pvp is removed because it is overpowered. What if we had both toughness/vitality paired with CC stats? It would be the most broken and annoying thing ever. I do not wish to play a game where I have to fight unkillable tanks that can CC my character to complete uselessness. However without survivability stats, a complete control-stat player would hit like a wet noodle, but with skilled play he can make the other complete dps-stat player hit like a wet noodle too. Both the DPS and control player are glassy and can be killed if they aren't careful. With a CC role, ANet can bring PvE and PvP gameplay closer together because a CC role is a much more skilled required than stacking passive defense stats to be unkillable. Now, splitting PvE and PvP isn't bad, but the split should be minimal whether possible.

 

Thirdly, I don't want to revert to the old holy trinity ever. What I like about Guild Wars 2 now is that healing classes are useful but not required. Healing classes can make the game much smoother but isn't required to complete the Fractals. I want the control role would be balanced to not be a hard required class, but only as useful as having healers.

 

Mechanics is not something that you can just add, you can't just say "Why not both?" and call it a day. It has to be refined and balanced otherwise it becomes a mess. Getting rid of useless skills and mechanic is the job of making the game better just as well as adding them.

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"runeblade.7514" said:

> First understand that there is no proper aggro system that allows player make full use of toughness and vitality for pve. It does absolutely nothing to protect the party at all if it is in open world PvE or fractals. Right now, it just serves as a crutch for badly skilled players. For raids, it is for a badly designed mechanic that lets one player move the boss. Bringing a high toughness and vitality tank is just absurd compared to bringing the bare minimum of toughness that is barely above 9 other players.

 

Honestly miss before HOT added all those horrible "Break-Bars" when you could actually use control skills to control enemies (above veteran/grunt, which doesn't matter). That *used* to be the "tanking" in GW2. You controlled the enemy with knockdowns, pulls, push, launch, blind etc, so it couldn't actually go after whichever target it wanted.

 

Now everything is just Break-Bar this and that, for PVE all the skills could just replace: Imob, stun, slow, daze etc with "This does X breakbar damage". :(

[Azoqu.8917]

Concerning this whole Trinity or no Trinity, GW2 is doing terrible for it. Not because going against the Trinity is undoable, but because of Chrono and Druid being so far ahead of others who could be in those roles that there is no point to take the others. Give Firebrand Alacrity on the Quickfire trait instead of burning and you'd have a contended for that spot in the raid. You'd be choosing Damage (FB) or more CC/Pulls (Chrono). Make Banner buffs and Spirit buffs available on other classes (Gyros giving Spirit buffs maybe?) so that those spots are not set in stone. The problem isn't the Trinity, but the faux Trinity that was made and the fact that there is only ONE class that can fill each spot. You could argue that Chrono/Druid can be replaced by FB/Renegade but that can only be done for one group, and since it's a two class swap instead of interchangeables it will never be adopted.

 

TLDR: Trinity is fine, no Trinity is fine. Just make sure that multiple classes can do the same job if you're going to enforce a certain job on people.

 

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> Now everything is just Break-Bar this and that, for PVE all the skills could just replace: Imob, stun, slow, daze etc with "This does X breakbar damage". :(

 

Which would actually be an improvement for the game because then people would hopefully learn what the blue bar means better.

[CptAurellian.9537]

Fully agreed, @"Azoqu.8917". I think that moving closer to a trinity in HoT was one of the best things that could happen to the game, since the vanilla no-trinity system was a total disaster with regard to PvE, but the implementation is flawed. Balance-wise, at least with regard to non-dps roles, we are currently somewhere on the level I've already seen in WoW classic. Certain important roles require certain classes and any alternatives are subpar by a massive margin. WoW classic was there 13 years ago, maybe the balance team should have a look at what Blizzard did. There's no need to repeat the very same mistakes over and over again, just in different games.

[runeblade.7514]

> @"joneirikb.7506" said:

> > @"runeblade.7514" said:

> > First understand that there is no proper aggro system that allows player make full use of toughness and vitality for pve. It does absolutely nothing to protect the party at all if it is in open world PvE or fractals. Right now, it just serves as a crutch for badly skilled players. For raids, it is for a badly designed mechanic that lets one player move the boss. Bringing a high toughness and vitality tank is just absurd compared to bringing the bare minimum of toughness that is barely above 9 other players.

>

> Honestly miss before HOT added all those horrible "Break-Bars" when you could actually use control skills to control enemies (above veteran/grunt, which doesn't matter). That *used* to be the "tanking" in GW2. You controlled the enemy with knockdowns, pulls, push, launch, blind etc, so it couldn't actually go after whichever target it wanted.

>

> Now everything is just Break-Bar this and that, for PVE all the skills could just replace: Imob, stun, slow, daze etc with "This does X breakbar damage". :(

 

I don't feel that defiance stacks were better because a thief can just use pistol 4 until all the stacks were gone on dungeon bosses and, there was no way to CC open world bosses because they all have 100+ defiance stacks. But despite that, I do like the period where I can knockdown/pull/launch after the defiance stacks were gone.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> Fully agreed, @"Azoqu.8917". I think that moving closer to a trinity in HoT was one of the best things that could happen to the game, since the vanilla no-trinity system was a total disaster with regard to PvE, but the implementation is flawed. Balance-wise, at least with regard to non-dps roles, we are currently somewhere on the level I've already seen in WoW classic. Certain important roles require certain classes and any alternatives are subpar by a massive margin. WoW classic was there 13 years ago, maybe the balance team should have a look at what Blizzard did. There's no need to repeat the very same mistakes over and over again, just in different games.

 

Pretty sure healer was a thing before HoT just that the pve content back then wasn't hard enough that players felt they needed it. But having elementalist and guardian healers definitely still made the content easier still.

The mistake that posters seem to be making in the thread is that trinity didn't exist when they did just not enforced. Even now you dont need a druid and chrono to do 100cm. They are there more to buff party dps . The CCs and heals are supplementary.

The real difference what anet is doing compared to the other mmorpgs that enforces trinity is 1) in gw2 each class can fill multiple roles not just one like in trinity based games 2) you don't need to invest heavily in any single character to be capable of fullfilling a role .

 

As we get more elite specializations the more roles each class will be able to fulfill. And you wont need to reroll more characters to fill those roles. This is the flexibility gw2 offers that sets it apart from other (imo) shitty trinity base mmorpgs.

 

The other thing that gw2 does really well is the combat. Animations aren't just there for cosmetics, you actually can react to your enemies animations as you evade and kite around. When i look at other trinity mmos all i see is clunky combat where characters stand still to cast skills, slow movement and lack of visual cues.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > Fully agreed, @"Azoqu.8917". I think that moving closer to a trinity in HoT was one of the best things that could happen to the game, since the vanilla no-trinity system was a total disaster with regard to PvE, but the implementation is flawed. Balance-wise, at least with regard to non-dps roles, we are currently somewhere on the level I've already seen in WoW classic. Certain important roles require certain classes and any alternatives are subpar by a massive margin. WoW classic was there 13 years ago, maybe the balance team should have a look at what Blizzard did. There's no need to repeat the very same mistakes over and over again, just in different games.

>

> Pretty sure healer was a thing before HoT just that the pve content back then wasn't hard enough that players felt they needed it. But having elementalist and guardian healers definitely still made the content easier still.

> The mistake that posters seem to be making in the thread is that trinity didn't exist when they did just not enforced. Even now you dont need a druid and chrono to do 100cm. They are there more to buff party dps . The CCs and heals are supplementary.

> The real difference what anet is doing compared to the other mmorpgs that enforces trinity is 1) in gw2 each class can fill multiple roles not just one like in trinity based games 2) you don't need to invest heavily in any single character to be capable of fullfilling a role .

>

> As we get more elite specializations the more roles each class will be able to fulfill. And you wont need to reroll more characters to fill those roles. This is the flexibility gw2 offers that sets it apart from other (imo) kitten trinity base mmorpgs.

>

> The other thing that gw2 does really well is the combat. Animations aren't just there for cosmetics, you actually can react to your enemies animations as you evade and kite around. When i look at other trinity mmos all i see is clunky combat where characters stand still to cast skills, slow movement and lack of visual cues.

 

Err, trinity games allow classes to fill multiple roles via specializations. WoW has done it for many years now. Some classes can even play all roles. GW2's lack of trinity makes virtually ALL classes DPS with the exception of a few viable support builds. How is that so superior?

[squallaus.8321]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> Err, trinity games allow classes to fill multiple roles via specializations. WoW has done it for many years now. Some classes can even play all roles. GW2's lack of trinity makes virtually ALL classes DPS with the exception of a few viable support builds. How is that so superior?

 

Except gw2 doesn't lack trinity. Its just not enforced. But its certainly there if you want to take advantage of it or you want to play that style. And the different classes does differ quite a lot from each other. You will find certain classes will be easier to do certain content even though you play DPS spec for all of them.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > Err, trinity games allow classes to fill multiple roles via specializations. WoW has done it for many years now. Some classes can even play all roles. GW2's lack of trinity makes virtually ALL classes DPS with the exception of a few viable support builds. How is that so superior?

>

> Except gw2 doesn't lack trinity. Its just not enforced. But its certainly there if you want to take advantage of it or you want to play that style. And the different classes does differ quite a lot from each other. You will find certain classes will be easier to do certain content even though you play DPS spec for all of them.

 

No it is not. With no meaningful way to manipulate threat in GW2, there can be no tanking. And "healing" here is a pale shadow of what it is in a trinity game like WoW. I realize that the classes all play differently, but they play differently in all MMOs. In my opinion, the lack of the trinity is a limiting factor. It limits the game design to DPS only and then forces them to backtrack and create sub-par approximations like druid and contrived encounters where 1 player passively "tanks" by virtue of having toughness on his gear. Trinity games do this so much better it's just sad to compare them.

 

Having said that, I think GW2's system is absolutely brilliant for open world play, where defined roles aren't typically used. It's just GW2's instanced PvE that is kinda lame.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> >

> > > Err, trinity games allow classes to fill multiple roles via specializations. WoW has done it for many years now. Some classes can even play all roles. GW2's lack of trinity makes virtually ALL classes DPS with the exception of a few viable support builds. How is that so superior?

> >

> > Except gw2 doesn't lack trinity. Its just not enforced. But its certainly there if you want to take advantage of it or you want to play that style. And the different classes does differ quite a lot from each other. You will find certain classes will be easier to do certain content even though you play DPS spec for all of them.

>

> No it is not. With no meaningful way to manipulate threat in GW2, there can be no tanking. And "healing" here is a pale shadow of what it is in a trinity game like WoW. I realize that the classes all play differently, but they play differently in all MMOs. In my opinion, the lack of the trinity is a limiting factor. It limits the game design to DPS only and then forces them to backtrack and create sub-par approximations like druid and contrived encounters where 1 player passively "tanks" by virtue of having toughness on his gear. Trinity games do this so much better it's just sad to compare them.

>

> Having said that, I think GW2's system is absolutely brilliant for open world play, where defined roles aren't typically used. It's just GW2's instanced PvE that is kinda lame.

 

Um no, having trinity is the limiting factor hence you got stupid situations where toughness stat defines the agro. In agro situations the agro should be based on something meaningful like a person is protecting an object of interest. And this person gets the boss's attention. The person holding the object of interest shouldn't need to have the highest toughess, maybe he got alot of evades, healing or just good at running away. Outside of agro situations the bosses should attack strategeically like the person with the lowest HP or someone that is far away from the healer. Having trinity just means simpler and more structured design, but not necessary good or interesting design. Certain gw2 raid bosses having the agro mechanic on the character with the highest toughness certainly don't have my support as a design idea. And no, gw2 for a period of time had the DPS only meta because the content was not difficult enough and did not have enough interesting mechanics to force the use of diversity in builds even though the diversity in builds was there from the beginning, though in a more limited form compare to now.

 

Druid, or healers in general in gw2, is in fact fairly active compared to alot of other mmos. Here you have to juggle between healing, well timed barrier, well timed aegis, party stun breaks, combo finish, CC enemy and dodge fatal attacks. In most other games I've seen you just stand there and heal most of the time.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joneirikb.7506]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

They did have a way to "tank" originally, by using control effects. Stuff like Guardian Staff 5 line of warding could be used to stop enemies/mobs from reaching the squishy elementalist etc. But no character ever had enough to constantly control an enemy, as was intended, it was supposed to be a group effort. (Then they made everything into defiance bars... sigh). But yeah, not all enemies was affected by this.

 

I do agree that the "toughness check" is a poorly added wannabe tanking mechanism, but I have yet to see a single tank mechanism I've liked anyways, I much prefer gw2's take on "controlling" them (when it works...).

 

I do agree that "Damage" is a bit too prevalent, and I wish they did some redesigning of content and encounters, especially enemy AI and builds, to encourage building somewhat more defensive. But that is a design fault on difficulty, encounters, and enemy AI and not a design fault due to lack of trinity.

 

GW2 does have a trinity of roles, it just isn't very obvious because it isn't enforced (as the other guy said). They just altered it slightly to: Damage/Control/Support. But almost no matter what build you run, you have something of all of them, and by knowing your build you always do a bit of each (exceptions exist, naturally). For example, it's impossible to play a core guardian well without also being support because of how the virtues works.

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

> > >

> > > > Err, trinity games allow classes to fill multiple roles via specializations. WoW has done it for many years now. Some classes can even play all roles. GW2's lack of trinity makes virtually ALL classes DPS with the exception of a few viable support builds. How is that so superior?

> > >

> > > Except gw2 doesn't lack trinity. Its just not enforced. But its certainly there if you want to take advantage of it or you want to play that style. And the different classes does differ quite a lot from each other. You will find certain classes will be easier to do certain content even though you play DPS spec for all of them.

> >

> > No it is not. With no meaningful way to manipulate threat in GW2, there can be no tanking. And "healing" here is a pale shadow of what it is in a trinity game like WoW. I realize that the classes all play differently, but they play differently in all MMOs. In my opinion, the lack of the trinity is a limiting factor. It limits the game design to DPS only and then forces them to backtrack and create sub-par approximations like druid and contrived encounters where 1 player passively "tanks" by virtue of having toughness on his gear. Trinity games do this so much better it's just sad to compare them.

> >

> > Having said that, I think GW2's system is absolutely brilliant for open world play, where defined roles aren't typically used. It's just GW2's instanced PvE that is kinda lame.

>

> Um no, having trinity is the limiting factor hence you got stupid situations where toughness stat defines the agro. In agro situations the agro should be based on something meaningful like a person is protecting an object of interest. And this person gets the boss's attention. The person holding the object of interest shouldn't need to have the highest toughess, maybe he got alot of evades, healing or just good at running away. Outside of agro situations the bosses should attack strategeically like the person with the lowest HP or someone that is far away from the healer. Having trinity just means simpler and more structured design, but not necessary good or interesting design. Certain gw2 raid bosses having the agro mechanic on the character with the highest toughness certainly don't have my support as a design idea. And no, gw2 for a period of time had the DPS only meta because the content was not difficult enough and did not have enough interesting mechanics to force the use of diversity in builds even though the diversity in builds was there from the beginning, though in a more limited form compare to now.

>

> Druid, or healers in general in gw2, is in fact fairly active compared to alot of other mmos. Here you have to juggle between healing, well timed barrier, well timed aegis, party stun breaks, combo finish, CC enemy and dodge fatal attacks. In most other games I've seen you just stand there and heal most of the time.

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

 

Enough shitty asian mmos + videos of various game play videos to know fixed trinity roles sucks. A much better system is gw2's one where a single class can fill different roles + able to tweak your build so that you can customise the varying degree to which you can dps, self sustain healing, heal support, boon support, CC support, stun break/block support based on different situations. Different situations being a particular fight/mechanics itself, player competence, party composition availability. This is possible because the system allows it and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to respec and change gears.

 

Take this aion video for example..

The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

[Crab Fear.1624]

The game does not have heal, tank, dps? Could've fooled me

[Scipion.7548]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

 

> Take this aion video for example.. .The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

 

I'm sure that when we talk about GW2 healer we refer to something like the druid (a healer which doesnt heal 100% of the time) and not a 100% true healer a la wow or aion.

It always bothers me when we talk about roles on GW2 and someone think about healing on WoW or Aion. GW2 is a different game.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Scipion.7548" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

>

> > Take this aion video for example.. .The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

>

> I'm sure that when we talk about GW2 healer we refer to something like the druid (a healer which doesnt heal 100% of the time) and not a 100% true healer a la wow or aion.

> It always bothers me when we talk about roles on GW2 and someone think about healing on WoW or Aion. GW2 is a different game.

 

Point was pure healers and fixed roles of the trinity based games in general are boring. The ability to alter one's build to tailor to a particular battle and group composition without losing an arm or a leg in cost to respec is what makes theory and build crafting so much fun in gw2. On top of that most roles in gw2 are fairly active, even "primary" healer roles. Which adds to the over all fun and stands in stark contrast to how trinity mmos in general operate.

[Henry.5713]

I have mixed feelings about the holy trinity.

It's absence while we ventured into instanced content such as explorable dungeons was a wave of fresh air at the time that reminded me of games I played before the trinity became a stable of most MMORPGs. Not too many games pull this off well. Blade and Soul is another game I have played "recently" that managed to do so.

Though, there are tanks - there are no dedicated healers. Tanking on a blademaster was a so unique, so based on your personal ability and thus very fun.

But while I certainly enjoyed the way things worked without dedicated roles I also ended up missing the role of a healer which has always been my favorite.

My enjoyment of raids easily doubled when I swapped to mainly playing druid. It wouldn't matter to me if the druid was replaced with another healing/supportive build. I would simply swap to that one instead if it seemed worth it to me.

 

The video above brings me back. It is a little misleading however. There is more to playing cleric than just standing in one spot using one healing skill on the tank - just like there is more to playing a druid in GW2 than just using staff auto and the occasional avatar form.

[Deepcuts.9740]

Even if in the end this is just a fantasy game, it still relates to real combat somehow. And I like just a little bit of realism even in such a game.

In the trenches, you got stabbed or shoot? You call MEDIC!

You need to breach the enemy line? You send a TANK!

You need to reign hell on an enemy position? You need a lot of firepower.

You need to be able to do all the above 3? You need some logistics and support.

The feeling that one person can do all of those things is good if you are Marvel and you are creating a superhero.

So yes, I am all for better trinity than the one we currently have. I miss the feeling that what I do counts for the team and what each member of my team does, helps me accomplish what I desire. I dislike the mentality of "everyone can do everything".

[robertthebard.8150]

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

>

> Enough kitten asian mmos + videos of various game play videos to know fixed trinity roles sucks. A much better system is gw2's one where a single class can fill different roles + able to tweak your build so that you can customise the varying degree to which you can dps, self sustain healing, heal support, boon support, CC support, stun break/block support based on different situations. Different situations being a particular fight/mechanics itself, player competence, party composition availability. This is possible because the system allows it and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to respec and change gears.

>

> Take this aion video for example..

The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

 

Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

 

I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"Deepcuts.9740" said:

> Even if in the end this is just a fantasy game, it still relates to real combat somehow. And I like just a little bit of realism even in such a game.

> In the trenches, you got stabbed or shoot? You call MEDIC!

> You need to breach the enemy line? You send a TANK!

> You need to reign hell on an enemy position? You need a lot of firepower.

> You need to be able to do all the above 3? You need some logistics and support.

> The feeling that one person can do all of those things is good if you are Marvel and you are creating a superhero.

> So yes, I am all for better trinity than the one we currently have. I miss the feeling that what I do counts for the team and what each member of my team does, helps me accomplish what I desire. I dislike the mentality of "everyone can do everything".

 

There is a difference between being able to do everything and being able to do everything at the same time. Why can't a person be well trained in artillery but can also perform medical procedures. Just like in real life, someone who is proficient, say, in tennis could also be someone who is good at programming. That person wouldn't be able to do both at the same time but can certainly perform at each individually when necessary. I think is it you who lack realism not gw2 developers.

 

If you want contribute to the team simply perform your role properly. It has nothing to do with trinity roles or no trinity roles.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

 

> Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

>

> I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

 

In another words pretty much just need to stand there and heal. Do they need to help CC boss? nope... Do they need to combo finish to aoe heal? Nope... Do they need to time mass rez with nature spirit? nope... do they need to help block projectiles? nope....

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > > @"robertthebard.8150" said:

> > > I have to ask, just how many games have you actually seen? Because, quite frankly, I can't think of a one that I've played in the last 20 years that matches your description. I mean, there's a trinity system in ESO too, but the healer isn't just standing there throwing heals. It never happened that way in Aion, where I actually played an "off healer", chanter instead of cleric, I didn't have any cleanses for DoTs, but I wasn't standing at the back, I was on the front line, beating on the mobs that needed beaten on. It wasn't that way in swtor, if it had been, there'd be a lot of party wipes. It wasn't that way in Rappelz, even, and other than one skill, their dps really sucked. What you seem to be missing is a thing called "healer aggro", that happens when a healer throws a heal on a toon that has all the hate. If you just stand there, throwing heals, you're dead, and in some situations, so is the party. So it would seem to me that, based on your posts, you're talking from a limited experience with MMOs, at least healing in MMOs.

> >

> > Enough kitten asian mmos + videos of various game play videos to know fixed trinity roles sucks. A much better system is gw2's one where a single class can fill different roles + able to tweak your build so that you can customise the varying degree to which you can dps, self sustain healing, heal support, boon support, CC support, stun break/block support based on different situations. Different situations being a particular fight/mechanics itself, player competence, party composition availability. This is possible because the system allows it and it doesn't cost an arm or a leg to respec and change gears.

> >

> > Take this aion video for example..

The guy just stand there away from the boss and heals pretty much. No need to time mass rez for downed players, no need to time party stun breaks, no need help CC boss like druids do.

>

> Two things jump to mind immediately, the "enough Asian MMOs and videos", and "pretty much". I played Aion from the second closed beta until just before it went F2P, although my sub was still active when it went F2P, and there were literally no parties that I was in where the healer just stood in one spot. In most instances, it's impossible to do so, due to AoEs, or the fact that the instance requires you to move constantly from room to room. Let's not cover PvP either, otherwise your youtube experience will really just fall to the wayside.

>

> I don't miss the trinity here, it lets me get faster queues when I hit a group, as in, the last time I used the LFG panel, I didn't wait for a group at all. In a trinity situation, I've spent hours in the queue to never get a pop. ESO is my last example of that, but my favorite example is in swtor, where my guild leader and I spent 45 minutes waiting for a queue to pop on DPS toons, but as soon as we switched to his healer and my tank, we popped instantly. I don't miss that, not one little bit. However, I have several years worth of experience in a variety of Trinity having MMOs, and that experience is enough to know that a healer that's just standing there throwing heals is doing it wrong. Note: That's several years in each one I've played, and none of that experience is from youtube videos, but actually in these games, seeing what can go sideways, and how it can.

 

That's a definite advantage of the non-trinity system. The game is designed without healers and tanks in mind, so literally any group composition will do. Even where certain roles are preferred, it never approaches the level of a trinity game in forcing group composition. Unfortunately, I don't think it actually improves instanced PvE gameplay. I've just never been impressed by GW2 instanced PvE. It feels like it's missing dimensions that trinity games I've played create with these divisions between roles.

 

Consider that even T4 challenge mode bosses can be done solo in this game. This is a direct result of the non-trinity design. With no tanking there are no tanks, which means you must allow in the design for "DPS" builds to survive. There are no healers either, so they have to not only be able to survive the damage, but be able to heal it back themselves. In high end content in trinity games, there is absolutely no way a DPS build can survive on their own. Neither can the tank or healer. They function as a unit and the content is far tougher than any one player can handle on their own. I feel the non-trinity design ties the developer's hands and forces them to water down the instanced PvE encounters in this game.

[squallaus.8321]

> @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

 

> Consider that even T4 challenge mode bosses can be done solo in this game. This is a direct result of the non-trinity design. With no tanking there are no tanks, which means you must allow in the design for "DPS" builds to survive. There are no healers either, so they have to not only be able to survive the damage, but be able to heal it back themselves. In high end content in trinity games, there is absolutely no way a DPS build can survive on their own. Neither can the tank or healer. They function as a unit and the content is far tougher than any one player can handle on their own. I feel the non-trinity design ties the developer's hands and forces them to water down the instanced PvE encounters in this game.

 

I'd argue that another way, its just that the game allows for really high skill tiered play. If you look at the number of people who can actually do hard bosses solo it is a very small number. Don't mistake games where it makes things punishing in a way that you absolutely can't do x content without healer tank be classified as properly designed content. The coordination in group play as a result of forced cooperation is not really more impressive than the solo performance that requires pin point precision in kiting to avoid taking damage and being able to maintain really high dps.

[AliamRationem.5172]

 

> @"squallaus.8321" said:

> > @"AliamRationem.5172" said:

>

> > Consider that even T4 challenge mode bosses can be done solo in this game. This is a direct result of the non-trinity design. With no tanking there are no tanks, which means you must allow in the design for "DPS" builds to survive. There are no healers either, so they have to not only be able to survive the damage, but be able to heal it back themselves. In high end content in trinity games, there is absolutely no way a DPS build can survive on their own. Neither can the tank or healer. They function as a unit and the content is far tougher than any one player can handle on their own. I feel the non-trinity design ties the developer's hands and forces them to water down the instanced PvE encounters in this game.

>

> I'd argue that another way, its just that the game allows for really high skill tiered play. If you look at the number of people who can actually do hard bosses solo it is a very small number. Don't mistake games where it makes things punishing in a way that you absolutely can't do x content without healer tank be classified as properly designed content. The coordination in group play as a result of forced cooperation is not really more impressive than the solo performance that requires pin point precision in kiting to avoid taking damage and being able to maintain really high dps.

 

My opinion is that WoW simply had far better instanced PvE than GW2 has ever displayed at any point in time. This game has much better open world play, however. And I think a lot of that has to do with this particular design decision. I think it lends itself well to less organized play, but lacks depth once you get into the area of raids and other high end PvE that require organization. The lack of a trinity removes dimensions of play that I personally found compelling and contributed to the challenge and overall better gameplay in WoW in this specific context.