Coolguy.8702 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > Every scourge runs trail of anguish and plague signet. Tell me... stability and stunbreaks mean anything to you? They typically don't need to sit in the middle of combat like a melee class, so their stunbreak and stability is more than adequate. The shade skills as they exist are just having their cake and eating it too. Reaper arguably needs better ways to stunbreak/stab than scourge does. > > Mobility is a separate issue which has always been a problem for necros (and guardians and engineers, the three slowest classes), but has little to do with the design of the shade skills. > > > The problem with scourge is that its entire mechanic is the problem. No number adjustment is going to fix the issue without also breaking the scourge's ability to function. Its mechanic needs a fundamental redesign to encourage skilled play and discourge the current braindead state it exists in. I don't want scourge dead, or broken, or useless. I want it to actually operate like any other class and require a degree of intelligence to use to its utmost. > > Oh, and no, I don't think Scourge is the only OP class. Spellbreaker, FB, Holo, Shatter Mesmer, and Druid all need reductions in their capabilities. The thing is that with those other specs, they can be fixed with numbers changes. Scourge is the one that stands out because its fundamental mechanic is the problem. Well not every scourge runs plague sig and anguish stab is laughable. Holo mechanic can be compared to scourge due to it having just as low cds that are aoe and hit even harder. You guys don't even need any kind of life force to cast it. Scourge mechanic is op because like others here said Sand Savant makes its radius too big, I wouldn't mind it being removed for a trait that increases our damage or gives some kind of defense. But other classes (including yours) would have to recieve some big nerfs as well. Issue with your post is how bad all of the solutions are and the fact that there is no "scourge is fine" option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virelion.4128 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 And here we go again with nerf witch hunt threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > Every scourge runs trail of anguish and plague signet. Tell me... stability and stunbreaks mean anything to you? They typically don't need to sit in the middle of combat like a melee class, so their stunbreak and stability is more than adequate. The shade skills as they exist are just having their cake and eating it too. Reaper arguably needs better ways to stunbreak/stab than scourge does. > > > > Mobility is a separate issue which has always been a problem for necros (and guardians and engineers, the three slowest classes), but has little to do with the design of the shade skills. > > > > > > The problem with scourge is that its entire mechanic is the problem. No number adjustment is going to fix the issue without also breaking the scourge's ability to function. Its mechanic needs a fundamental redesign to encourage skilled play and discourge the current braindead state it exists in. I don't want scourge dead, or broken, or useless. I want it to actually operate like any other class and require a degree of intelligence to use to its utmost. > > > > Oh, and no, I don't think Scourge is the only OP class. Spellbreaker, FB, Holo, Shatter Mesmer, and Druid all need reductions in their capabilities. The thing is that with those other specs, they can be fixed with numbers changes. Scourge is the one that stands out because its fundamental mechanic is the problem. > > Well not every scourge runs plague sig and anguish stab is laughable. Holo mechanic can be compared to scourge due to it having just as low cds that are aoe and hit even harder. You guys don't even need any kind of life force to cast it. Scourge mechanic is op because like others here said Sand Savant makes its radius too big, I wouldn't mind it being removed for a trait that increases our damage or gives some kind of defense. But other classes (including yours) would have to recieve some big nerfs as well. > > Issue with your post is how bad all of the solutions are and the fact that there is no "scourge is fine" option. 1 - Then let’s say every Scourge with a brain runs Trail of Anguish and Plague Signet. 2 - Holo mechanics can’t be compared to Scourge because Holosmiths can’t use their Photon Forge skills at 900 Range. They don’t hit “even harder”. They hit as much as a Scourge does. And Holosmiths does have something like Life Force. It’s called **Heat** and it damages you when you hit %100 heat. Please inform yourself. 3 - I, too, would like to see some damage buffs for Scourge if Sand Savant gets removed and all Shades have 180 Radius baseline. 4 - The issue with your post is how exaggerating you are and the fact that Scourge isn’t fine, at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > Every scourge runs trail of anguish and plague signet. Tell me... stability and stunbreaks mean anything to you? They typically don't need to sit in the middle of combat like a melee class, so their stunbreak and stability is more than adequate. The shade skills as they exist are just having their cake and eating it too. Reaper arguably needs better ways to stunbreak/stab than scourge does. > > > > Mobility is a separate issue which has always been a problem for necros (and guardians and engineers, the three slowest classes), but has little to do with the design of the shade skills. > > > > > > The problem with scourge is that its entire mechanic is the problem. No number adjustment is going to fix the issue without also breaking the scourge's ability to function. Its mechanic needs a fundamental redesign to encourage skilled play and discourge the current braindead state it exists in. I don't want scourge dead, or broken, or useless. I want it to actually operate like any other class and require a degree of intelligence to use to its utmost. > > > > Oh, and no, I don't think Scourge is the only OP class. Spellbreaker, FB, Holo, Shatter Mesmer, and Druid all need reductions in their capabilities. The thing is that with those other specs, they can be fixed with numbers changes. Scourge is the one that stands out because its fundamental mechanic is the problem. > > Well not every scourge runs plague sig and anguish stab is laughable. Holo mechanic can be compared to scourge due to it having just as low cds that are aoe and hit even harder. You guys don't even need any kind of life force to cast it. Scourge mechanic is op because like others here said Sand Savant makes its radius too big, I wouldn't mind it being removed for a trait that increases our damage or gives some kind of defense. But other classes (including yours) would have to recieve some big nerfs as well. > > Issue with your post is how bad all of the solutions are and the fact that there is no "scourge is fine" option. 1. Have you even read my other posts? I have repeatedly said that scourge is not the only OP class. However, it's the only class whose core mechanic is the problem, the rest require numbers adjustments. Holo, Druid, Spellbreaker, etc. can be tuned to appropriate levels by numbers adjustments. Scourge cannot because its core mechanic (sand shade skills) is what's causing all the issues. 2. Holo specifically is a melee spec. Right now, due to the powercreep in the game, you cannot last in melee particularly long without stability (warrior), blocks (war/guard), evades (thieves), or lots of stunbreaks. Scourge, on the other hand, is a caster with 900-1200 range depending on weapon set. It doesn't need the same amount of stability or stunbreaks, and it shouldn't have them either. Right now, the majority of scourges run 2 stunbreaks, one featuring stability. 3. The scourge is not fine. It continues to be overpowered for the level of intellect required to operate it. If we want to encourage "skilled" play, we can't allow a spec that can be effectively played by an AI to be so powerful on the battlefield. Realistically, it should either require a modicum of intelligence to use, or shouldn't be as potent. These are what my choices in the poll represent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolguy.8702 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > 1 - Then let’s say every Scourge with a brain runs Trail of Anguish and Plague Signet. > 2 - Holo mechanics can’t be compared to Scourge because Holosmiths can’t use their Photon Forge skills at 900 Range. They don’t hit “even harder”. They hit as much as a Scourge does. And Holosmiths does have something like Life Force. It’s called **Heat** and it damages you when you hit %100 heat. Please inform yourself. > 3 - I, too, would like to see some damage buffs for Scourge if Sand Savant gets removed and all Shades have 180 Radius baseline. > 4 - The issue with your post is how exaggerating you are and the fact that Scourge isn’t fine, at all. Plague sig isn't necessary for scourge, esp if you have a fb on ur team Shade Skills only hit 900 range, if the scourge wants to give up the point, lol holo gets 7-14k crits just by auto attacking and you think that's the same. The heat mechanic is laughable easier to manage than life force, since you guys lose it just by dodging and can come in and out of it as you please, holo only overheats if they're new to the class since it has tons of ways to lose heat I don't think scourge is fine, although it would be imo if Sand Savant got removed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aza.2105 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Boon corruption is a big part of why scourge is OP. But the issue isn't with scourge itself but the fact that nearly all traits, skills and utility generate boons. You can't even make a build that doesn't use boons. Because of this, scourge penalizes players because of anets profession design, not because a specific build they are using. If they change boons were they are infrequent and only show up when you build your character a certain way, then scourge's role would become more niche. The reason why it counters nearly everything is simply because boons are found on nearly everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shagaliscious.6281 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 My biggest issue with sand savant is that it increases the radius and number of targets hit, AT THE SAME TIME, it reduces the cooldown? That makes zero sense to me. If you are going to get a bigger AOE that hits more targets, shouldn't the cooldown be increased? I think if everyone started seeing the smaller shades, their perception of how OP scourge is would change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > 1 - Then let’s say every Scourge with a brain runs Trail of Anguish and Plague Signet. > > 2 - Holo mechanics can’t be compared to Scourge because Holosmiths can’t use their Photon Forge skills at 900 Range. They don’t hit “even harder”. They hit as much as a Scourge does. And Holosmiths does have something like Life Force. It’s called **Heat** and it damages you when you hit %100 heat. Please inform yourself. > > 3 - I, too, would like to see some damage buffs for Scourge if Sand Savant gets removed and all Shades have 180 Radius baseline. > > 4 - The issue with your post is how exaggerating you are and the fact that Scourge isn’t fine, at all. > > Plague sig isn't necessary for scourge, esp if you have a fb on ur team > Shade Skills only hit 900 range, if the scourge wants to give up the point, lol holo gets 7-14k crits just by auto attacking and you think that's the same. The heat mechanic is laughable easier to manage than life force, since you guys lose it just by dodging and can come in and out of it as you please, holo only overheats if they're new to the class since it has tons of ways to lose heat > I don't think scourge is fine, although it would be imo if Sand Savant got removed > > Plague Signet isn’t for getting rid of condis, it’s for getting those condis on your enemy. I haven’t seen any Scourges, no, any Necromancers who doesn’t run Plague Signet. Scourge can make the point a deadzone from 900 range and enemies run from the cap point. Then Scourge sits on his throne and never leaves, along with his queen, the Firebrand. It is literally impossible to hit even 7K autos, let alone 14K. With all the damage modifiers, the max damage you can get on a player with Auto Attacks is 6 - 6,5K in sPvP*. Heat mechanic is easier to manage than life force, arguable. Holosmiths can’t come in and out of Photon Forge as they please, whenever they enter Photon Forge, they have to wait for 6 seconds. And entering Photon Forge disables all the kit usage. For example if I enter PF with no dodges left at %90 heat, Overheat. It doesn’t have “tons of ways” to lose heat, the only way you can lose heat is when you leave PF (it has a decayed loss of heat), and when you dodge with Vent Exhaust traited. Or when you get downed and rally, which I don’t think is an optional way to lose heat. You said all of the Poll’s solutions are bad and complained that why isn’t there a “Scourge is fine” option, which implies, that you think Scourge is fine. TL;DR : Please inform yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolguy.8702 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > > Plague Signet isn’t for getting rid of condis, it’s for getting those condis on your enemy. I haven’t seen any Scourges, no, any Necromancers who doesn’t run Plague Signet. > > Scourge can make the point a deadzone from 900 range and enemies run from the cap point. Then Scourge sits on his throne and never leaves, along with his queen, the Firebrand. > > It is literally impossible to hit even 7K autos, let alone 14K. With all the damage modifiers, the max damage you can get on a player with Auto Attacks is 6 - 6,5K in sPvP*. > > Heat mechanic is easier to manage than life force, arguable. > Holosmiths can’t come in and out of Photon Forge as they please, whenever they enter Photon Forge, they have to wait for 6 seconds. And entering Photon Forge disables all the kit usage. For example if I enter PF with no dodges left at %90 heat, Overheat. > > It doesn’t have “tons of ways” to lose heat, the only way you can lose heat is when you leave PF (it has a decayed loss of heat), and when you dodge with Vent Exhaust traited. > Or when you get downed and rally, which I don’t think is an optional way to lose heat. > > You said all of the Poll’s solutions are bad and complained that why isn’t there a “Scourge is fine” option, which implies, that you think Scourge is fine. > > TL;DR : Please inform yourself. Ok Wrong, if scourge is 900 range away then they wouldn't be able to use ghastly breach, desert shroud itself isn't enough to force a decap -You'd be shocked, since holo always has 25 might uptime it's not that hard to get those numbers. Fact that you think 6.5k autos are balanced says enough - Heat is much easier to manage, unless your new and spam 4 and 5 all the time. Scourge has poor of gen, except in team fights where lots of deaths happen, even then its rarely enough. You can still use you god tier elixir s to leave photon as you please - I didnt speak for myself, there could be some others who think scourge is fine. Literally every poll has an option like this TL;DR: You should play both these 2 more, that way you can sound like you know what you're talking about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Razor.6392" said: > > 3. > > > > There is no reason why the necro should act as a sand shade. Removing this doesn't lower any damage because the shades don't stack, so why not do it? > > > > A shade alone _might_ be bearable, but then combined with the necro himself, if placed next to each other while avoiding overlap, just how big is that aoe? > > Except there is. Placing your sand shade has a casting time of 0.5 seconds; the shade skills themselves have a delay now; add animation times and the natural delay of online-games and that would result in your first shade skill having a "cast time" of approx. 2 seconds in PvP, which is just stupid and would kill the necro in many encounters since shade skills are the Scourges main-dmg- **and** defensive-skills. Scourges are already very vulnerable to sniper-builds (they are basically free kills for deadeyes and lb-rangers) and have a major disadvantage against stealthy enemies due to the shade-skill-delay. I'd actually say that the class is fine the way it is currently. You aren't forced to run into these circles anyway and Scourges die fast if people focus them. All that (except the longer cast time now) was always true. Scourge was always easy to focus, and easy to snipe. And vulnerable to stealth, and mobile builds because shades not only have a cooldown, they have a limited number both in terms of being placeable but also in terms of how many you can drop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > > > > > > > Plague Signet isn’t for getting rid of condis, it’s for getting those condis on your enemy. I haven’t seen any Scourges, no, any Necromancers who doesn’t run Plague Signet. > > > > Scourge can make the point a deadzone from 900 range and enemies run from the cap point. Then Scourge sits on his throne and never leaves, along with his queen, the Firebrand. > > > > It is literally impossible to hit even 7K autos, let alone 14K. With all the damage modifiers, the max damage you can get on a player with Auto Attacks is 6 - 6,5K in sPvP*. > > > > Heat mechanic is easier to manage than life force, arguable. > > Holosmiths can’t come in and out of Photon Forge as they please, whenever they enter Photon Forge, they have to wait for 6 seconds. And entering Photon Forge disables all the kit usage. For example if I enter PF with no dodges left at %90 heat, Overheat. > > > > It doesn’t have “tons of ways” to lose heat, the only way you can lose heat is when you leave PF (it has a decayed loss of heat), and when you dodge with Vent Exhaust traited. > > Or when you get downed and rally, which I don’t think is an optional way to lose heat. > > > > You said all of the Poll’s solutions are bad and complained that why isn’t there a “Scourge is fine” option, which implies, that you think Scourge is fine. > > > > TL;DR : Please inform yourself. > > Ok > Wrong, if scourge is 900 range away then they wouldn't be able to use ghastly breach, desert shroud itself isn't enough to force a decap > -You'd be shocked, since holo always has 25 might uptime it's not that hard to get those numbers. Fact that you think 6.5k autos are balanced says enough > - Heat is much easier to manage, unless your new and spam 4 and 5 all the time. Scourge has poor of gen, except in team fights where lots of deaths happen, even then its rarely enough. You can still use you god tier elixir s to leave photon as you please > - I didnt speak for myself, there could be some others who think scourge is fine. Literally every poll has an option like this > > TL;DR: You should play both these 2 more, that way you can sound like you know what you're talking about > Is Ghastly Breach the only offensive skill or what? You can still put F1, and spam F2-3-4-5 and with every F skill you use, the Shade performs an attack. This is enough to pressure the enemy or even make them leave if they can’t cleanse all the conditions you put. Show me how Holosmith can keep up 25 might all the time, pretty please. I said 6K with all the damage modifiers, including Warrior banners. You can’t spam 4 and 5. Managing is arguable, I said. And as far as I know, Soul Reaping makes Life Force much easier to manage. You should play both of those more, so you don’t exaggerate (or lie) to make yourself seem like you’re right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlySynz.3471 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coolguy.8702 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > Is Ghastly Breach the only offensive skill or what? You can still put F1, and spam F2-3-4-5 and with every F skill you use, the Shade performs an attack. This is enough to pressure the enemy or even make them leave if they can’t cleanse all the conditions you put. > > Show me how Holosmith can keep up 25 might all the time, pretty please. I said 6K with all the damage modifiers, including Warrior banners. > > You can’t spam 4 and 5. > Managing is arguable, I said. And as far as I know, Soul Reaping makes Life Force much easier to manage. > > You should play both of those more, so you don’t exaggerate (or lie) to make yourself seem like you’re right. You do that you die straight after, and f1-f3 do nothing really except 3 boon corrupts (from f1 and f2). Desert shroud only does burning,torment and cripple but since your a holo (which scourge hard counters), you'll think they come from shade skills since you almost always have nearly every book on you. Holo can easily stack 25 might with corona burst and elixirs Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. If you think scourge is so op then at least explain what you think makes it like that and how to fix it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jace al Thor.6745 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. Except Anet is pushing for everyone to have plenty of boons so that doesn’t work. Not saying it’s a scourge problem, it’s not, it’s an Anet problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. This is inherently ridiculous. Almost every class generates boons now whether they want to or not. It's in our auto-attacks, in our heals, and in most of our other skills. Part of the powercreep in this game has increased boon generation. You also can't control boons that other people place on you either. There's no counterplay to allies like Firebrand spamming buffs on you. It's the equivalent of an "invert healing" skill where you can't control heals applied to you. Unlike WoW or other MMOs, you can't remove boons applied to yourself. Your comment also highlights the main thrust of this thread: That scourge's unique mechanic is so fundamentally different than every other elite spec's unique mechanics that it cannot be balanced the way that it currently exists. No amount of number changes will make it balanced without also casting scourge into complete uselessness. > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > > > > Is Ghastly Breach the only offensive skill or what? You can still put F1, and spam F2-3-4-5 and with every F skill you use, the Shade performs an attack. This is enough to pressure the enemy or even make them leave if they can’t cleanse all the conditions you put. > > > > Show me how Holosmith can keep up 25 might all the time, pretty please. I said 6K with all the damage modifiers, including Warrior banners. > > > > You can’t spam 4 and 5. > > Managing is arguable, I said. And as far as I know, Soul Reaping makes Life Force much easier to manage. > > > > You should play both of those more, so you don’t exaggerate (or lie) to make yourself seem like you’re right. > > Holo can easily stack 25 might with corona burst and elixirs Lol no You also clearly don't know what you're talking about, because it's not easy to stack 25 might as a holo and survive for more than 3 seconds against a scourge, or more than 10 seconds against anybody else. To get 25 stacks of might on holo, you'd have to spec [ECSU](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Enhanced_Capacity_Storage_Unit "ECSU") instead of vent heat and add boon duration runes/ammie, lowering your damage. Doing so makes you even more vulnerable to spellbreaker and scourge, which strip or corrupt said boons, rendering your build less effective. It also makes you have a significantly longer cooldown period in fights. There's a very good reason why most engineers think ECSU needs to be improved or redesigned -- the other two grandmasters are more useful. [HGH](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/HGH "HGH") + Elixirs would not give enough might unless your entire utility bar was elixirs and you spammed them in rapid succession, which is incredibly sub-optimal, especially given that their toolbelt skills have this annoying habit of getting reflected or destroyed. >Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. It's called a staff. Ever heard of it? Every necro spams all their marks at the beginning of a fight to get nearly 30% of their max life force. The rest then gets generated through other attacks (Torch 4, scepter 3) or deaths. You're also right about Photon Forge's heat. It forces you out of damage mode instead. There's an obligatory cooldown. Life force doesn't have that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Solution 2 and 3. The idea of a very large moving AOE, (and a powerful one at that, ) is just fundamentally flawed in GW2 PvP. This should not have gotten past the design phase. For years, one of the major drawbacks to Mesmer has been that Phantasms and Clones are easily destroyed. **In fact ANET deliberately reinforced this and greatly weakened Mesmer when clone death traits were removed.** Turrets were made vulnerable after the season of turret engi dominance. There is no reason for Scourge to have unkillable shades. **Making Turrets killable resolved the issue of Turret Engis dominating. It follows that making Shades killable could resolve the problems with Scourge.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > **Making Turrets killable resolved the issue of Turret Engis dominating. It follows that making Shades killable could resolve the problems with Scourge.** Something something ask renegades how well that works for them something something. Also I guess making engineer turrets so bad no one uses them any more is "resolving the issue", in a sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imperadordf.2687 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > > > > Is Ghastly Breach the only offensive skill or what? You can still put F1, and spam F2-3-4-5 and with every F skill you use, the Shade performs an attack. This is enough to pressure the enemy or even make them leave if they can’t cleanse all the conditions you put. > > > > Show me how Holosmith can keep up 25 might all the time, pretty please. I said 6K with all the damage modifiers, including Warrior banners. > > > > You can’t spam 4 and 5. > > Managing is arguable, I said. And as far as I know, Soul Reaping makes Life Force much easier to manage. > > > > You should play both of those more, so you don’t exaggerate (or lie) to make yourself seem like you’re right. > > You do that you die straight after, and f1-f3 do nothing really except 3 boon corrupts (from f1 and f2). Desert shroud only does burning,torment and cripple but since your a holo (which scourge hard counters), you'll think they come from shade skills since you almost always have nearly every boon on you. > > Holo can easily stack 25 might with corona burst and elixirs > > Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > If you think scourge is so op then at least explain what you think makes it like that and how to fix it With every F skill you use, the Shade or Shades you have perform attacks. So you can spam F1-2-3-4-5 and corrupt a lot of boons - inflict Cripple - Torment - Burning (assuming you trait Dhuumfire, which everybody does). And you want me to play a boonless Holo? Sounds pretty possible. /s No, it can’t. Remove Sand Savant and be done with it already. The other nerfs can be reverted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. > > This is inherently ridiculous. Almost every class generates boons now whether they want to or not. It's in our auto-attacks, in our heals, and in most of our other skills. Part of the powercreep in this game has increased boon generation. You also can't control boons that other people place on you either. There's no counterplay to allies like Firebrand spamming buffs on you. It's the equivalent of an "invert healing" skill where you can't control heals applied to you. Unlike WoW or other MMOs, you can't remove boons applied to yourself. > > >Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > > It's called a staff. Ever heard of it? Every necro spams all their marks at the beginning of a fight to get nearly 30% of their max life force. The rest then gets generated through other attacks (Torch 4, scepter 3) or deaths. > > You're also right about Photon Forge's heat. It forces you out of damage mode instead. There's an obligatory cooldown. Life force doesn't have that. So whats your solution then? nerf boon corrupt into the ground and leave boonspam meta and leave scourge broken and dead in spvp and wvw? don't answer, because i know what the answer will be. You have to be within range of necros aoes, and also:If you are holo, you can range necro the whole time. If you want to really nerf boon corrupt, then nerf boon spam hard, making it harder, then you will see far less boon corrupt, and to those who are stupid enough to stand in and get 1 billion condis:You asked for it, so necros shouldn't be nerfed because of your stupidity. Also:Holosmith has good damage and range.Can't you just gun down the scourge when his abilities are on cooldown? Also:if you play ranger or thief you can range him even further or kill him faster using double pistol thief or core ranger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Coolguy.8702" said: > > @"Imperadordf.2687" said: > > > > > > > > Is Ghastly Breach the only offensive skill or what? You can still put F1, and spam F2-3-4-5 and with every F skill you use, the Shade performs an attack. This is enough to pressure the enemy or even make them leave if they can’t cleanse all the conditions you put. > > > > Show me how Holosmith can keep up 25 might all the time, pretty please. I said 6K with all the damage modifiers, including Warrior banners. > > > > You can’t spam 4 and 5. > > Managing is arguable, I said. And as far as I know, Soul Reaping makes Life Force much easier to manage. > > > > You should play both of those more, so you don’t exaggerate (or lie) to make yourself seem like you’re right. > > You do that you die straight after, and f1-f3 do nothing really except 3 boon corrupts (from f1 and f2). Desert shroud only does burning,torment and cripple but since your a holo (which scourge hard counters), you'll think they come from shade skills since you almost always have nearly every book on you. > > Holo can easily stack 25 might with corona burst and elixirs > > Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > If you think scourge is so op then at least explain what you think makes it like that and how to fix it Hgh is nerfed, holos doesn't use elixirs no more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > > > > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > > > > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. > > > > This is inherently ridiculous. Almost every class generates boons now whether they want to or not. It's in our auto-attacks, in our heals, and in most of our other skills. Part of the powercreep in this game has increased boon generation. You also can't control boons that other people place on you either. There's no counterplay to allies like Firebrand spamming buffs on you. It's the equivalent of an "invert healing" skill where you can't control heals applied to you. Unlike WoW or other MMOs, you can't remove boons applied to yourself. > > > > >Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > > > > It's called a staff. Ever heard of it? Every necro spams all their marks at the beginning of a fight to get nearly 30% of their max life force. The rest then gets generated through other attacks (Torch 4, scepter 3) or deaths. > > > > You're also right about Photon Forge's heat. It forces you out of damage mode instead. There's an obligatory cooldown. Life force doesn't have that. > > So whats your solution then? nerf boon corrupt into the ground and leave boonspam meta and leave scourge broken and dead in spvp and wvw? don't answer, because i know what the answer will be. > > If you want to really nerf boon corrupt, then nerf boon spam hard, making it harder, then you will see far less boon corrupt, and to those who are stupid enough to stand in and get 1 billion condis:You asked for it, so necros shouldn't be nerfed because of your stupidity. My solutions are posted in the original post, unless you didn't bother reading that. Nothing is inherently wrong with boon corruption, but as it stands, it's brainless because of the ability for scourges to run at their targets and spam their skills, even when CC'd. Getting penalized for builds you can't control (IE Boonspam FB) is ridiculous, especially if the punishment is so easy to inflict. > @"Axl.8924" said: > You have to be within range of necros aoes, and also:If you are holo, you can range necro the whole time. > Also:Holosmith has good damage and range.Can't you just gun down the scourge when his abilities are on cooldown? I specifically want to address these two points because you've clearly never played a rifle engineer. Rifle only has 2 ranged skills that actually outrange a necro (>900 range). Those are the [autoattack](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hip_Shot "autoattack") and [Net shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot "Net shot"). That's it. Everything else is is 800 range or less, well within a scourge's ability to hit us. Engineer rifle is one of the weakest power-based ranged weapons in the game. We largely use the rifle for its control abilities and ability to spike in somewhat close ranges (blunderbuss/leap shot), which are not long distance. Engineer forum has had several players who don't main engineer who [don't understand](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30586/questions-from-a-guardian-main "don't understand") why [our rifle is so bad](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/424119 "our rifle is so bad") for DPS output. Can it outpressure a scourge over time? Maybe, if the scourge is a numbskull and doesn't move to block its LOS, use their barrier, or otherwise attack the engineer, but it's not a sufficient ranged weapon to take out scourge in a reasonable period of time by itself. We have to get within melee range to actually take down a scourge within a reasonable period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Axl.8924 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > > > > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > > > > > > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > > > > > > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. > > > > > > This is inherently ridiculous. Almost every class generates boons now whether they want to or not. It's in our auto-attacks, in our heals, and in most of our other skills. Part of the powercreep in this game has increased boon generation. You also can't control boons that other people place on you either. There's no counterplay to allies like Firebrand spamming buffs on you. It's the equivalent of an "invert healing" skill where you can't control heals applied to you. Unlike WoW or other MMOs, you can't remove boons applied to yourself. > > > > > > >Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > > > > > > It's called a staff. Ever heard of it? Every necro spams all their marks at the beginning of a fight to get nearly 30% of their max life force. The rest then gets generated through other attacks (Torch 4, scepter 3) or deaths. > > > > > > You're also right about Photon Forge's heat. It forces you out of damage mode instead. There's an obligatory cooldown. Life force doesn't have that. > > > > So whats your solution then? nerf boon corrupt into the ground and leave boonspam meta and leave scourge broken and dead in spvp and wvw? don't answer, because i know what the answer will be. > > > > If you want to really nerf boon corrupt, then nerf boon spam hard, making it harder, then you will see far less boon corrupt, and to those who are stupid enough to stand in and get 1 billion condis:You asked for it, so necros shouldn't be nerfed because of your stupidity. > > My solutions are posted in the original post, unless you didn't bother reading that. Nothing is inherently wrong with boon corruption, but as it stands, it's brainless because of the ability for scourges to run at their targets and spam their skills, even when CC'd. Getting penalized for builds you can't control (IE Boonspam FB) is ridiculous, especially if the punishment is so easy to inflict. > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > You have to be within range of necros aoes, and also:If you are holo, you can range necro the whole time. > > Also:Holosmith has good damage and range.Can't you just gun down the scourge when his abilities are on cooldown? > > I specifically want to address these two points because you've clearly never played a rifle engineer. > > Rifle only has 2 ranged skills that actually outrange a necro (>900 range). Those are the [autoattack](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hip_Shot "autoattack") and [Net shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot "Net shot"). That's it. Everything else is is 800 range or less, well within a scourge's ability to hit us. Engineer rifle is one of the weakest power-based ranged weapons in the game. We largely use the rifle for its control abilities and ability to spike in somewhat close ranges (blunderbuss/leap shot), which are not long distance. > > Engineer forum has had several players who don't main engineer who [don't understand](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30586/questions-from-a-guardian-main "don't understand") why [our rifle is so bad](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/424119 "our rifle is so bad") for DPS output. Can it outpressure a scourge over time? Maybe, if the scourge is a numbskull and doesn't move to block its LOS, use their barrier, or otherwise attack the engineer, but it's not a sufficient ranged weapon to take out scourge in a reasonable period of time by itself. We have to get within melee range to actually take down a scourge within a reasonable period of time. Then find a way to deal with that, without actually gutting necros. The solution i've seen from many scourge haters would nerf them into the ground without any recompense. I have read your message, and yoru message is ridiculous.You want to gut boon corrupt of necro and make boonspam meta. You complain about others but what about boonspam? if you nerf boon corrupt,it doesn't get rid of boonspam.All it does is allow mindless boonspam from warriors/mesmers/thieves etc. Boon corrupt is a method of control. Also:Some of the scourges stuff is all in 1, and if you nerf it too much,you risk making necros free kills in SPVP and useless in wvw. Maybe its a better idea to get rid of the amounts of boons able to be generated first and self generated boons from everyone, then see how strong it is.Also:there is a 0.5 sec delay on all casts. You can't nerf offensives without ending up nerfing the defensives too.Asking for blanket nerfs is a dangerous thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aden.9306 Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Solution #3: The necro is no longer treated as its own sand shade. It gains all boons/barrier granted by shade skills, but not the damage/corruption AoE. This greatly increases the intelligence requirement for playing scourge, while still keeping their abilities strong. This would also mean that the scourge itself is not a death zone if it's outside of its shade's influence. This would make necro have to play more like a bomb engineer, but still potentially deal damage and protect itself when stunned. I never, never, and never understood why it wasn't like this in the first place......................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted March 11, 2018 Author Share Posted March 11, 2018 > @"Axl.8924" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"DeadlySynz.3471" said: > > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > > > > > @"MyPuppy.8970" said: > > > > > > > I'd be fine with just removing access to 1 or 2 conditions. Same with specs that can fart every boon in the game in one button press. There was a time when boons and conditions had to be managed properly to be effective. There is just too much of everything in one single skill nowadays. Make the team combos and beautiful moves more valuable. > > > > > > > > > > > > Scourges were already nerfed in condis.Problem is that a lot of people have millions of boons so it turns into millions of conditions. > > > > > > > > > > This is exactly it, so the solution, don't run into battle with a bazillion boons. You can't corrupt what isn't there. > > > > > > > > > > Many of the scourges skills show "remove a boon and apply torment and cripple". The simple solution, don't have the boons to begin with. > > > > > > > > This is inherently ridiculous. Almost every class generates boons now whether they want to or not. It's in our auto-attacks, in our heals, and in most of our other skills. Part of the powercreep in this game has increased boon generation. You also can't control boons that other people place on you either. There's no counterplay to allies like Firebrand spamming buffs on you. It's the equivalent of an "invert healing" skill where you can't control heals applied to you. Unlike WoW or other MMOs, you can't remove boons applied to yourself. > > > > > > > > >Life force is also a nightmare to gather if nobody dies since all the gathering skills only give like 3%. Photon forge doesn't require you to gather and spend heat like these skills do. > > > > > > > > It's called a staff. Ever heard of it? Every necro spams all their marks at the beginning of a fight to get nearly 30% of their max life force. The rest then gets generated through other attacks (Torch 4, scepter 3) or deaths. > > > > > > > > You're also right about Photon Forge's heat. It forces you out of damage mode instead. There's an obligatory cooldown. Life force doesn't have that. > > > > > > So whats your solution then? nerf boon corrupt into the ground and leave boonspam meta and leave scourge broken and dead in spvp and wvw? don't answer, because i know what the answer will be. > > > > > > If you want to really nerf boon corrupt, then nerf boon spam hard, making it harder, then you will see far less boon corrupt, and to those who are stupid enough to stand in and get 1 billion condis:You asked for it, so necros shouldn't be nerfed because of your stupidity. > > > > My solutions are posted in the original post, unless you didn't bother reading that. Nothing is inherently wrong with boon corruption, but as it stands, it's brainless because of the ability for scourges to run at their targets and spam their skills, even when CC'd. Getting penalized for builds you can't control (IE Boonspam FB) is ridiculous, especially if the punishment is so easy to inflict. > > > > > @"Axl.8924" said: > > > You have to be within range of necros aoes, and also:If you are holo, you can range necro the whole time. > > > Also:Holosmith has good damage and range.Can't you just gun down the scourge when his abilities are on cooldown? > > > > I specifically want to address these two points because you've clearly never played a rifle engineer. > > > > Rifle only has 2 ranged skills that actually outrange a necro (>900 range). Those are the [autoattack](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hip_Shot "autoattack") and [Net shot](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Net_Shot "Net shot"). That's it. Everything else is is 800 range or less, well within a scourge's ability to hit us. Engineer rifle is one of the weakest power-based ranged weapons in the game. We largely use the rifle for its control abilities and ability to spike in somewhat close ranges (blunderbuss/leap shot), which are not long distance. > > > > Engineer forum has had several players who don't main engineer who [don't understand](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/30586/questions-from-a-guardian-main "don't understand") why [our rifle is so bad](https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/424119 "our rifle is so bad") for DPS output. Can it outpressure a scourge over time? Maybe, if the scourge is a numbskull and doesn't move to block its LOS, use their barrier, or otherwise attack the engineer, but it's not a sufficient ranged weapon to take out scourge in a reasonable period of time by itself. We have to get within melee range to actually take down a scourge within a reasonable period of time. > > Then find a way to deal with that, without actually gutting necros. > > The solution i've seen from many scourge haters would nerf them into the ground without any recompense. > > I have read your message, and yoru message is ridiculous.You want to gut boon corrupt of necro and make boonspam meta. Then apparently you're bad at reading: > ##Note > All these solutions should come with some buffs to offset the damage/survivability lost. You did take reading courses in school, yes? > @"Axl.8924" said: > You complain about others but what about boonspam? if you nerf boon corrupt,it doesn't get rid of boonspam.All it does is allow mindless boonspam from warriors/mesmers/thieves etc. I also said that scourge is not the only OP build. Go back and read some of my other posts. Firebrand and boonspamming in general also needs to be reduced, but those changes don't require fundamentally altering the way those mechanics work. They require numbers changes. > @"Axl.8924" said: > Boon corrupt is a method of control. I've noticed, and so has everybody who uses stability and/or resistance. The corrupt isn't the problem, it's the lack of counterplay/intelligence in how scourge is operated. > @"Axl.8924" said: > Also:Some of the scourges stuff is all in 1, and if you nerf it too much,you risk making necros free kills in SPVP and useless in wvw. > > Maybe its a better idea to get rid of the amounts of boons able to be generated first and self generated boons from everyone, then see how strong it is.Also:there is a 0.5 sec delay on all casts. > > You can't nerf offensives without ending up nerfing the defensives too.Asking for blanket nerfs is a dangerous thing. Really, you don't say? I know that necros in general need some love, particularly core necro (as does core engi). Keeping scourge in its braindead state is not the appropriate way to do that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honor.1982 Posted March 11, 2018 Share Posted March 11, 2018 sorry guys, they dont care what you think. they're gonna completely murder necro like they've done every time before cause people dont know how to not stand in shades. all necro builds will be nerfed into uselessness so bronze players can think they have a chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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