Warlord.9074 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs. > Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation. > When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently. > > The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value. > > You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it. > > 25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is. > > Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed. Were not talking about pug zergs, were only talking about organized guild groups. Pugs in this game do not matter. They always just run whatever builds and die most of the time. Backline is not the same as pick in a GVG. Pick never needed guardians for stab or warriors for condi cleansing. Healing spring was irrelevant it may of been the lowest CD water field in the game, but eles have 2 waterfields and also could trait cleansing water so when the warriors blasted it it cleared condis. No one took rangers over Eles. People absolutely put back line in guard parties becasue the necros needed the condition clears of the warriors and the warriors were in the guard parties. They also needed stability at times and necros were back line classes. You mentioned EP running thiefs but no mention of rangers again. Ofcourse guilds ran thiefs and mesmers in gvg as pick. 25k killshot is an absolutly false claim now, screen shot or it didn't happen and we are talking about base warriors and CL is not nerfed on base warrior so your claim that it is nerfed on base warrior is false. You just have no idea about what you are talking about at all. At this point I think you are cornered and there is no way for you to back out of it. So you just continue to spew false info to save face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 >necros needed the condition clears >necros needed the condition clears >necros needed the condition clears Oh boy... You'd see G/G/N/N and maybe G/G/N/E/* in some groups to deny a one-push for guards to give stability so it got prioritized to some backliners, but otherwise it was fill after the frontline and cleanses had nothing to do with it lol. One of first results of EP on youtube in mass outnumbered. What do you see? A ranger in the kitten frontline party lmao. You're calling *ME* the BS'er?! I'll ask my guildmember to screenshot his next ~25k KS on his core warrior and either post it here or I will. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToPNoP.2493 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 The biggest problem with matchups is they are being manipulated. The way to fix that is to up kdr influence on the wvw war score! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord.9074 Posted March 13, 2018 Author Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > >necros needed the condition clears > >necros needed the condition clears > >necros needed the condition clears > > Oh boy... > You'd see G/G/N/N and maybe G/G/N/E/* in some groups to deny a one-push for guards to give stability so it got prioritized to some backliners, but otherwise it was fill after the frontline and cleanses had nothing to do with it lol. > > > > One of first results of EP on youtube in mass outnumbered. > > What do you see? > > A ranger in the kitten frontline party lmao. You're calling *ME* the BS'er?! > > I'll ask my guildmember to screenshot his next ~25k KS on his core warrior and either post it here or I will. Thats all you got? Cleanses have nothing to do with it, ok clearly you are not the most mechanical player so you don not know what is going on in the game. You needed the cleanses to counter immob. A necro or anyone cought in immob would get rekt. Back then thats how you trapped players into bombs. CC was coming from 2 major sources. You have the Flurry and the hammer stun and hammer 3s on the warrior. Also Leg specialist had no ICD so hammer 3 was an AOE immob. Guards and wars would leap in, garuds would offen Gs 5 pull then the warriors would either hammer stun on the pull, or hammer 3, or flurry. Eles would static. There was no BS passives back then like taunt on cc or ridiculous auto pro some passive on a CC. You clearly never knew how the game worked back then. Thats why you need warhorn 4 to clear the immob and gaurds for stab on backliners. Any smart enemy always ignored the frontline and went trait for necros and eles.. Trooper guards and Tropper warriors. It was never about condition dammage it was about clearing soft CC, like immobs, and chills. Way before melandru meta. Woopdee do you posted a vid that has a ranger in it that is probably the only time it was ever used and I still wasn't better than taking another class. I think its more of a case there was nothing better and the party isn't even full lol. It is always tools and posers that like to bring up legendary guilds and try to take credit for something that they didn't even build. Or talk about how X guild beat that guild so X guild is great ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Umadusa.5874 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 Everyone complains about everything. Every aspect of the GW2 is OP. When it's not, it's DRASTICALLY underpowered. When it's neither, it's fundamentally flawed design. It's a broken record. Just play another game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo.1054 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps. I have been throwing out the idea of WvW going back to pre-HoT era lately a lot. It started off pretty much as a joke, but every time I mention it, everyone goes like: "Oh yeah man, that would be so awesome..." :dizzy: When I look at our recordings of our guild raids/roaming and blob fights from before HoT I inevitably think to myself: "Man, this was so much nicer to play..." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"samo.1054" said: > > @"XenoSpyro.1780" said: > > My solution : Disable all Elite specs for PVP/WvW. Disable all amulets or reduce by a metric eff ton. (300/200 instead of 1200/900). Say goodbye to all damage creeps. > > I have been throwing out the idea of WvW going back to pre-HoT era lately a lot. It started off pretty much as a joke, but every time I mention it, everyone goes like: "Oh yeah man, that would be so awesome..." :dizzy: > > When I look at our recordings of our guild raids/roaming and blob fights from before HoT I inevitably think to myself: "Man, this was so much nicer to play..." it was harder for the casuals, many players that arrive to gw2 dont care to know how class works mostly they want a class andknow they will do damage with certain rotations or stats, now they have mroe friendly gimmicks to choose, in wich can make them enter in some game modes rather than get stuck in one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs. > > Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation. > > When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently. > > > > The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value. > > > > You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it. > > > > 25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is. > > > > Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed. > > > Were not talking about pug zergs, were only talking about organized guild groups. Pugs in this game do not matter. They always just run whatever builds and die most of the time. Backline is not the same as pick in a GVG. **Pick never needed guardians for stab or warriors for condi cleansing.** Healing spring was irrelevant it may of been the lowest CD water field in the game, **but eles have 2 waterfields and also could trait cleansing water so when the warriors blasted it it cleared condis**. No one took rangers over Eles. **People absolutely put back line in guard parties becasue the necros needed the condition clears of the warriors and the warriors were in the guard parties. They also needed stability at times and necros were back line classes.** > > You mentioned EP running thiefs but no mention of rangers again. Ofcourse guilds ran thiefs and mesmers in gvg as pick. **25k killshot is an absolutly false claim now, screen shot or it didn't happen and we are talking about base warriors and CL is not nerfed on base warrior so your claim that it is nerfed on base warrior is false.** You just have no idea about what you are talking about at all. At this point I think you are cornered and there is no way for you to back out of it. So you just continue to spew false info to save face. > It’s funny you mention not having a clue what he’s talking about after saying the bolded statements. Pick generally had few cleanses and no stab, yes they didn’t usually have a bespoke guard and war for stab and cleansing, they would sometimes have a guard give them stab on initial engage to prevent them getting stunned and get a first burst on a necro. They would often return to the group when they needed cleanses as most groups had tons of cleansing overspill and as mentioned pick mesmers and thieves ran almost no cleanse. Blasting a water field never gives regen so has no interaction with cleansing water, furthermore the blast would work of the guardian stats and traits so you’re wrong here. You might have meant whirl or projectile finisher in a water field however again it’s associated with the class executing the finisher not the field owner so your still wrong. You’re half right, necros we’re put in front line for stab mainly, to say otherwise shows you had no understanding of the meta pre spec patch or that necros ran with no stunbreak and no stab (double well, corrupt boon). Necro actually had OK cleansing, they had mark 4 and consume conditions, sure the warrior was good to cleanse conditions but necro could survive without a warrior with just the cleanses from the 2 mandatory guards and their own cleansing. Kill shot has a 3.25 damage mod, this is huge, however I cannot comment on whether 25k kill shot is possible as I never played old killshot warrior. However CI was nerfed when it was moved to grandmaster and competed against last stand, not directly but indirectly. Stability in a zerg fight is far better than the cleansing from cleansing ire, if you don’t have stab and the enemy zerg pushes your zerg then you’re toast and as a warrior outside of your zerg you’re vulnerable as you lack the teleports and target drop abilities of thieves and mesmers. You could rely on the stab of guards but if you’re corrupted you need your own and that’s where last stand came in, if you were corrupted and CC’d it would give you stab back and break the CC giving you a chance to run. You generally saved your utility stand your ground for warbanner or an emergency like if your auto stand your ground got corrupted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 After reading the above... yeah I think it's arguing against a brick wall. I will add, though, that depending on the specific time referenced, necro did run stunbreaks and stability on tri-well builds with Well of Power after its buff. It's why some parties around this time opted for fewer guardians in backline parties when stacking boons and put more emphasis on rotating them post-engage with a bigger, more-durable frontline consisting of G/G/G/G/W or similar since there was better self-peel and bomb denial now coming from coordinated groups of necros alone, and partied guards were generally just strictly more durable together than G/G/N/N. Additionally worth noting: Ranger (if run) generally wouldn't be put in a full party because there's just no strategic reason for it. Most of its benefits were functional irrespective of which party it was in as it was relatively self-sufficient, and the point of running it was for guild-wide support via HSpring's massive radius (also the largest water field at the time) and persistence (until 10/13 it had 15s field duration which on water was bonkers), and SnR for priority resses, especially in the case of a double-downed commander. In the end, communication went a lot longer way and more things were zerg-viable. We've at least mutually all agreed that G/W/N/Ele/T/M was significant, some classes having more than one build, and there's still evidence demonstrating that Ranger was and could be utilized, which is way more diversity than what we have now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iozeph.5617 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 > @"Warlord.9074" said: > Alright so after taking a 7-8 month break from the game. It gave me a new perspective into what the core problems with the game. I'll concede that the game is already ruined and that now it can't be fixed. > > Point 1 Everyone is too mobile. Every class. Some are meant to be more mobile than others but in general there is too much access to mobility in certain specs that I think circumvents how they were originally intended. > > > Point 2 everyone does too much damage, Every class. Everyone should be able to do good damage, but the amount of damage a skill does should be based on risk and difficulty and that's just not the case in this game. > > > lastly there is too mush sustain and get out of jail free cards for classes that are over buffed in point 1 and Point 2. > > > TLDR, Super Mobile, I win button, get out of jail free cards applied to too many classes and spec without any risk whatsoever and extremely low skill floors to pull off. Now you have gw2 a game with great potential destroyed and can never be fixed. > > How it got this way my opinion on that. Anet caving to players who want to be god mode without any risk at all just because someone else who played harder than them won. Repeatedly caving to this over and over.. Then permanently breaking every class some way more than others based on which players cryed the most and who yelled the loudest. Yeah.... No. Core Engineer post elixir nerf disagrees with you. And after incoming Holo nerfs more or less the whole Engineer profession. But never mind. We've been underrepresented all along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted March 13, 2018 Share Posted March 13, 2018 I honestly feel sorry for how the engineer class has been treated all these years. So much potential to fill in any role, but always nerfed back to being the red headed step child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord.9074 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs. > > > Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation. > > > When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently. > > > > > > The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value. > > > > > > You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it. > > > > > > 25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is. > > > > > > Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed. > > > > > > Were not talking about pug zergs, were only talking about organized guild groups. Pugs in this game do not matter. They always just run whatever builds and die most of the time. Backline is not the same as pick in a GVG. **Pick never needed guardians for stab or warriors for condi cleansing.** Healing spring was irrelevant it may of been the lowest CD water field in the game, **but eles have 2 waterfields and also could trait cleansing water so when the warriors blasted it it cleared condis**. No one took rangers over Eles. **People absolutely put back line in guard parties becasue the necros needed the condition clears of the warriors and the warriors were in the guard parties. They also needed stability at times and necros were back line classes.** > > > > You mentioned EP running thiefs but no mention of rangers again. Ofcourse guilds ran thiefs and mesmers in gvg as pick. **25k killshot is an absolutly false claim now, screen shot or it didn't happen and we are talking about base warriors and CL is not nerfed on base warrior so your claim that it is nerfed on base warrior is false.** You just have no idea about what you are talking about at all. At this point I think you are cornered and there is no way for you to back out of it. So you just continue to spew false info to save face. > > > > It’s funny you mention not having a clue what he’s talking about after saying the bolded statements. > > Pick generally had few cleanses and no stab, yes they didn’t usually have a bespoke guard and war for stab and cleansing, they would sometimes have a guard give them stab on initial engage to prevent them getting stunned and get a first burst on a necro. They would often return to the group when they needed cleanses as most groups had tons of cleansing overspill and as mentioned pick mesmers and thieves ran almost no cleanse. > > Blasting a water field never gives regen so has no interaction with cleansing water, furthermore the blast would work of the guardian stats and traits so you’re wrong here. You might have meant whirl or projectile finisher in a water field however again it’s associated with the class executing the finisher not the field owner so your still wrong. > > You’re half right, necros we’re put in front line for stab mainly, to say otherwise shows you had no understanding of the meta pre spec patch or that necros ran with no stunbreak and no stab (double well, corrupt boon). Necro actually had OK cleansing, they had mark 4 and consume conditions, sure the warrior was good to cleanse conditions but necro could survive without a warrior with just the cleanses from the 2 mandatory guards and their own cleansing. > > Kill shot has a 3.25 damage mod, this is huge, however I cannot comment on whether 25k kill shot is possible as I never played old killshot warrior. However CI was nerfed when it was moved to grandmaster and competed against last stand, not directly but indirectly. Stability in a zerg fight is far better than the cleansing from cleansing ire, if you don’t have stab and the enemy zerg pushes your zerg then you’re toast and as a warrior outside of your zerg you’re vulnerable as you lack the teleports and target drop abilities of thieves and mesmers. You could rely on the stab of guards but if you’re corrupted you need your own and that’s where last stand came in, if you were corrupted and CC’d it would give you stab back and break the CC giving you a chance to run. You generally saved your utility stand your ground for warbanner or an emergency like if your auto stand your ground got corrupted. Theres 2 separate arguments here. One argument was deceiver claims that ranger was meta in the gwen meta. The other argument makes a bunch of claims about base warrior in the context of roaming and soloing while using a rifle. The 1st argument is false. The 2nd argument has nothing do to with comps and zerg fights. Warrior would obviously not take CI in a group comp. Warrior would not use a rifle in that scenario. Warrior might not even use CI or defense tree as the claim was 25k kill shot base warrior 2018 as justification of dead eye damage with a rifle. The CI grand master trait change was made a long time ago, and as just recently changes were made to berserker only using 1 bar on burst and SB only using one bar of bust. But before those changes NO ONE EVER said CI was non meta. However Deceiver confused that with base warrior as none of those changes effect a base warrior and we were talking about killshot not gunflame. The rest of the arguments that deceiver makes are pretty clueless and he used them to try to defend that ranger was META, which it never was meta then. mostly by saying things like backline were not put in guard parties, and then confusing GVGs with open field as a way to say that other classes were META. ETC ETC Pls don't try to do this thing that makes my reading comprehension look low when you haven't been following the whole discussion yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CantoGuy.6459 Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Bullshit 1 shot builds are whats wrong with this game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs. > > > > Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation. > > > > When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently. > > > > > > > > The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value. > > > > > > > > You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it. > > > > > > > > 25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is. > > > > > > > > Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about pug zergs, were only talking about organized guild groups. Pugs in this game do not matter. They always just run whatever builds and die most of the time. Backline is not the same as pick in a GVG. **Pick never needed guardians for stab or warriors for condi cleansing.** Healing spring was irrelevant it may of been the lowest CD water field in the game, **but eles have 2 waterfields and also could trait cleansing water so when the warriors blasted it it cleared condis**. No one took rangers over Eles. **People absolutely put back line in guard parties becasue the necros needed the condition clears of the warriors and the warriors were in the guard parties. They also needed stability at times and necros were back line classes.** > > > > > > You mentioned EP running thiefs but no mention of rangers again. Ofcourse guilds ran thiefs and mesmers in gvg as pick. **25k killshot is an absolutly false claim now, screen shot or it didn't happen and we are talking about base warriors and CL is not nerfed on base warrior so your claim that it is nerfed on base warrior is false.** You just have no idea about what you are talking about at all. At this point I think you are cornered and there is no way for you to back out of it. So you just continue to spew false info to save face. > > > > > > > It’s funny you mention not having a clue what he’s talking about after saying the bolded statements. > > > > Pick generally had few cleanses and no stab, yes they didn’t usually have a bespoke guard and war for stab and cleansing, they would sometimes have a guard give them stab on initial engage to prevent them getting stunned and get a first burst on a necro. They would often return to the group when they needed cleanses as most groups had tons of cleansing overspill and as mentioned pick mesmers and thieves ran almost no cleanse. > > > > Blasting a water field never gives regen so has no interaction with cleansing water, furthermore the blast would work of the guardian stats and traits so you’re wrong here. You might have meant whirl or projectile finisher in a water field however again it’s associated with the class executing the finisher not the field owner so your still wrong. > > > > You’re half right, necros we’re put in front line for stab mainly, to say otherwise shows you had no understanding of the meta pre spec patch or that necros ran with no stunbreak and no stab (double well, corrupt boon). Necro actually had OK cleansing, they had mark 4 and consume conditions, sure the warrior was good to cleanse conditions but necro could survive without a warrior with just the cleanses from the 2 mandatory guards and their own cleansing. > > > > Kill shot has a 3.25 damage mod, this is huge, however I cannot comment on whether 25k kill shot is possible as I never played old killshot warrior. However CI was nerfed when it was moved to grandmaster and competed against last stand, not directly but indirectly. Stability in a zerg fight is far better than the cleansing from cleansing ire, if you don’t have stab and the enemy zerg pushes your zerg then you’re toast and as a warrior outside of your zerg you’re vulnerable as you lack the teleports and target drop abilities of thieves and mesmers. You could rely on the stab of guards but if you’re corrupted you need your own and that’s where last stand came in, if you were corrupted and CC’d it would give you stab back and break the CC giving you a chance to run. You generally saved your utility stand your ground for warbanner or an emergency like if your auto stand your ground got corrupted. > > Theres 2 separate arguments here. One argument was deceiver claims that ranger was meta in the gwen meta. The other argument makes a bunch of claims about base warrior in the context of roaming and soloing while using a rifle. The 1st argument is false. > > The 2nd argument has nothing do to with comps and zerg fights. Warrior would obviously not take CI in a group comp. Warrior would not use a rifle in that scenario. Warrior might not even use CI or defense tree as the claim was 25k kill shot base warrior 2018 as justification of dead eye damage with a rifle. The CI grand master trait change was made a long time ago, and as just recently changes were made to berserker only using 1 bar on burst and SB only using one bar of bust. But before those changes NO ONE EVER said CI was non meta. However Deceiver confused that with base warrior as none of those changes effect a base warrior and we were talking about killshot not gunflame. > > The rest of the arguments that deceiver makes are pretty clueless and he used them to try to defend that ranger was META, which it never was meta then. mostly by saying things like backline were not put in guard parties, and then confusing GVGs with open field as a way to say that other classes were META. ETC ETC > > Pls don't try to do this thing that makes my reading comprehension look low when you haven't been following the whole discussion yourself. I am not making your reading comprehension look low, I saw you made statements and passed them off as fact that were either wrong or true but with the wrong explanation, I am saying your knowledge of the meta pre HoT and pre specialisation is lacking as well as your understanding of the reasoning for such decisions and knowledge of the game. Pick needed warriors/guards for cleanses if they got hit as they ran few if any of their own. Necros were in the melee train for stab and stab alone, not for warrior cleanses. Warriors blasting water fields never cleansed conditions from the blasting whether you have cleansing water or not. No blasting cleansed conditions until recently. CI was nerfed the moment it had to compete with last stand, the only time it was ever considered useful was when berserker had pulsing stab from eternal champion and berserker was a flat upgrade to core warrior in every sense while having to deal with condi reapers. Even then many elected to run last stand or rousing resilience. You will never change anyone’s opinion or support your arguements when you make false statements or provide false explanations for those statements. As for Deciever and his rangers were meta, I don’t know what the NA meta was, I do know that many GvG guilds would use 1 or 2 different classes to the GWEN + TM focus for a specific use. At least he backed up his arguement with actual facts like ranger having a high evade uptime on the auto and having the lowest cool down water field from back then, the same cannot be said of you from the post I quoted. Edit: about the first point, pick wouldn’t have an assigned guard/war for cleanses and would instead return to the group where someone would provide if they could. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord.9074 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 Were just going to have to disagree that necros didn't need condi cleanse from warriors warhorns VIA automatic immob, cripple and chill removal in zerg fights. As you think that Necros had sufficient condi clear solo. As you seem to think staff mark 4 and their heal skill is enough. Since you think necros should be wasting their heal to clear Immob, and that they have time to switch to staff cast mark 4 and clear an immob before they are downed in a bomb. Will just disagree with you there. Thats not how the game works in reality or practice may look good on paper to make a frivolous argument. You maybe right about cleansing water not working the way I thought it dit but when warriors blasted it it cleared condis anyways from warriors warhorns. But basically you concede on every other thing you wrote. Basically Decievers point was you could do something and this is why, but that didn't make it meta, cuz it wasn't cuz it wasn't worth it despite him thinking it was critically nessecary. It didn't do more Damage than anyone else in that spec and its survivability wasn't better than gaurds or wariors, and it brought a water field which is litterally it and nothing else to the table and that is 100% why we should take rangers and that they are meta. Thats not a good argument. Even if its true. There are so many negatives about it, it doesn't help. It's one thing to make hypothetical arguments it's another thing to make common sense ones and ones that I think exist in reality which is all I have done here. Can't say the same for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondolph.7201 Posted March 14, 2018 Share Posted March 14, 2018 Why do you discuss pvp issues in the wvw section? Wvw is running in a zerg. I do that every day since years. I think wvw with all it's nuances is still working fine. Even if you are outnumbered you can counter with guerilla tactics. Especially i do not think that mobility is a problem. And against a well prepeared zerg, you are quite often pulled, routed and otherwise immobilized long enough to get killed. And the big damage dealers are often Berserker builds with low health and can be countered too, if you have clever tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warlord.9074 Posted March 14, 2018 Author Share Posted March 14, 2018 I never wanted to. I think that it's a waste of time myself. It's been a long time since this old meta. I never brought it up. But peoples memory fades and they forgot how Stability worked back then. It didn't have stacks and it wasn't removed from CC. So people forget that Immob was one of the if not the key way to CC back then. They either don't remember or they never played at that level then and only read about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Warlord.9074" said: > > > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > > Zergs didn't party their frontline and backlines. I say these things because I fought in a serious GvG guild and these were strategies we broke out to bust zergs. > > > > > Way back when, Healing Spring was the lowest cooldown water field in the game and a full tank ranger with Brutish Seals would get the benefits of signets self-applied without need for the pet; SotW at the time was a huge boost in damage and combined with RoA was the longest-lasting self-sustained stability possible. GS had a 1/3 evasion uptime on AA which back then was unreal in terms of negation. > > > > > When fighting outnumbered the peel and heal on the ranger could be huge for the frontline because of these lower cooldowns and high self-sufficiency. SnR also didn't matter if the pet was dead; it still performed the res and could effectively be a 45 second-or-less banner for priority targets like the commander. The teleport part is new but things die too quickly and unlike the old SnR, it can't hard-res double-downs. That's why it's bad currently. > > > > > > > > > > The absolute dominant and top-tier guilds did not run 80% GGWN. EP ran nearly 20% thieves alone and were the #1 guild in the world and destroyed Agg in the GvG championship during hammertrain because while everyone was so insistent on stacking more of the same specs, a few picks to counter the common strategy of mega-deeps backline flipped things on their head. Periphery squads became much more present after their crushing win when people started realizing this extra value. > > > > > > > > > > You wouldn't fill a party or fill multiple slots with rangers. You'd pick one, maybe two, for the entire frontline depending on how big a group you had. Doesn't change the fact they were used critically in some big GvG groups. Longbow backline has always been garbage for ZvZ play but people when utilizing ranger didn't use it. > > > > > > > > > > 25k killshot is absolutely not a false claim lmao. My guildmember literally did it last week running a build with 3k armor as a rifle war main. Maybe re-examine traits, buffs, and conditions of play if you think it's not possible, because it absolutely is. > > > > > > > > > > Most of what you've said about warrior above is also dated and untrue. There are many that don't even use CI anymore since it got nerfed. > > > > > > > > > > > > Were not talking about pug zergs, were only talking about organized guild groups. Pugs in this game do not matter. They always just run whatever builds and die most of the time. Backline is not the same as pick in a GVG. **Pick never needed guardians for stab or warriors for condi cleansing.** Healing spring was irrelevant it may of been the lowest CD water field in the game, **but eles have 2 waterfields and also could trait cleansing water so when the warriors blasted it it cleared condis**. No one took rangers over Eles. **People absolutely put back line in guard parties becasue the necros needed the condition clears of the warriors and the warriors were in the guard parties. They also needed stability at times and necros were back line classes.** > > > > > > > > You mentioned EP running thiefs but no mention of rangers again. Ofcourse guilds ran thiefs and mesmers in gvg as pick. **25k killshot is an absolutly false claim now, screen shot or it didn't happen and we are talking about base warriors and CL is not nerfed on base warrior so your claim that it is nerfed on base warrior is false.** You just have no idea about what you are talking about at all. At this point I think you are cornered and there is no way for you to back out of it. So you just continue to spew false info to save face. > > > > > > > > > > It’s funny you mention not having a clue what he’s talking about after saying the bolded statements. > > > > > > Pick generally had few cleanses and no stab, yes they didn’t usually have a bespoke guard and war for stab and cleansing, they would sometimes have a guard give them stab on initial engage to prevent them getting stunned and get a first burst on a necro. They would often return to the group when they needed cleanses as most groups had tons of cleansing overspill and as mentioned pick mesmers and thieves ran almost no cleanse. > > > > > > Blasting a water field never gives regen so has no interaction with cleansing water, furthermore the blast would work of the guardian stats and traits so you’re wrong here. You might have meant whirl or projectile finisher in a water field however again it’s associated with the class executing the finisher not the field owner so your still wrong. > > > > > > You’re half right, necros we’re put in front line for stab mainly, to say otherwise shows you had no understanding of the meta pre spec patch or that necros ran with no stunbreak and no stab (double well, corrupt boon). Necro actually had OK cleansing, they had mark 4 and consume conditions, sure the warrior was good to cleanse conditions but necro could survive without a warrior with just the cleanses from the 2 mandatory guards and their own cleansing. > > > > > > Kill shot has a 3.25 damage mod, this is huge, however I cannot comment on whether 25k kill shot is possible as I never played old killshot warrior. However CI was nerfed when it was moved to grandmaster and competed against last stand, not directly but indirectly. Stability in a zerg fight is far better than the cleansing from cleansing ire, if you don’t have stab and the enemy zerg pushes your zerg then you’re toast and as a warrior outside of your zerg you’re vulnerable as you lack the teleports and target drop abilities of thieves and mesmers. You could rely on the stab of guards but if you’re corrupted you need your own and that’s where last stand came in, if you were corrupted and CC’d it would give you stab back and break the CC giving you a chance to run. You generally saved your utility stand your ground for warbanner or an emergency like if your auto stand your ground got corrupted. > > > > Theres 2 separate arguments here. One argument was deceiver claims that ranger was meta in the gwen meta. The other argument makes a bunch of claims about base warrior in the context of roaming and soloing while using a rifle. The 1st argument is false. > > > > The 2nd argument has nothing do to with comps and zerg fights. Warrior would obviously not take CI in a group comp. Warrior would not use a rifle in that scenario. Warrior might not even use CI or defense tree as the claim was 25k kill shot base warrior 2018 as justification of dead eye damage with a rifle. The CI grand master trait change was made a long time ago, and as just recently changes were made to berserker only using 1 bar on burst and SB only using one bar of bust. But before those changes NO ONE EVER said CI was non meta. However Deceiver confused that with base warrior as none of those changes effect a base warrior and we were talking about killshot not gunflame. > > > > The rest of the arguments that deceiver makes are pretty clueless and he used them to try to defend that ranger was META, which it never was meta then. mostly by saying things like backline were not put in guard parties, and then confusing GVGs with open field as a way to say that other classes were META. ETC ETC > > > > Pls don't try to do this thing that makes my reading comprehension look low when you haven't been following the whole discussion yourself. > > I am not making your reading comprehension look low, I saw you made statements and passed them off as fact that were either wrong or true but with the wrong explanation, I am saying your knowledge of the meta pre HoT and pre specialisation is lacking as well as your understanding of the reasoning for such decisions and knowledge of the game. > > Pick needed warriors/guards for cleanses if they got hit as they ran few if any of their own. > Necros were in the melee train for stab and stab alone, not for warrior cleanses. > Warriors blasting water fields never cleansed conditions from the blasting whether you have cleansing water or not. No blasting cleansed conditions until recently. > CI was nerfed the moment it had to compete with last stand, the only time it was ever considered useful was when berserker had pulsing stab from eternal champion and berserker was a flat upgrade to core warrior in every sense while having to deal with condi reapers. Even then many elected to run last stand or rousing resilience. > > You will never change anyone’s opinion or support your arguements when you make false statements or provide false explanations for those statements. As for Deciever and his rangers were meta, I don’t know what the NA meta was, I do know that many GvG guilds would use 1 or 2 different classes to the GWEN + TM focus for a specific use. At least he backed up his arguement with actual facts like ranger having a high evade uptime on the auto and having the lowest cool down water field from back then, the same cannot be said of you from the post I quoted. > > Edit: about the first point, pick wouldn’t have an assigned guard/war for cleanses and would instead return to the group where someone would provide if they could. I never even said rangers were meta, either, lol. That's him putting words in my mouth. I said a lot of GvG guilds and skillgroups ran things other than strictly GWEN, such as thieves, mesmers, and rangers for their distinct ZvZ/GvG capabilities, and that this occurred because when people communicated well and played together (requiring more skill than current, which was part of the original argument), there could be ample reward for making these choices (the main point being diversity was greater then vs now). I even said initially that this was limited strictly to ranger GS on a specific build for a very niche purpose and that one, maybe two, would be used for the entire guild in a ZvZ situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coglin.1496 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Over.2137" said: > I don't care what's the build I don't care what you sacrifice, stop the kitten kitten this numbers should not exist in this game it legit removes any form of gameplay, this amount of damage takes blatantly very low effort for the thief and 0 counterplay for the 2nd part. Ridiculous and pathetic. It doesn't matter what you do or do not care. it doesn't make it rational. If you are in a build that is damage focused, with limited to no defense what so ever, and are hit with skills from another build that is focused on damage, while you have no defenses, this numbers absolutely should exist, as well there is a very reasonable argument as to why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 > @"Warlord.9074" said: > Were just going to have to disagree that necros didn't need condi cleanse from warriors warhorns VIA automatic immob, cripple and chill removal in zerg fights. As you think that Necros had sufficient condi clear solo. As you seem to think staff mark 4 and their heal skill is enough. Since you think necros should be wasting their heal to clear Immob, and that they have time to switch to staff cast mark 4 and clear an immob before they are downed in a bomb. Will just disagree with you there. Thats not how the game works in reality or practice may look good on paper to make a frivolous argument. > > You maybe right about cleansing water not working the way I thought it dit but when warriors blasted it it cleared condis anyways from warriors warhorns. But basically you concede on every other thing you wrote. Basically Decievers point was you could do something and this is why, but that didn't make it meta, cuz it wasn't cuz it wasn't worth it despite him thinking it was critically nessecary. It didn't do more Damage than anyone else in that spec and its survivability wasn't better than gaurds or wariors, and it brought a water field which is litterally it and nothing else to the table and that is 100% why we should take rangers and that they are meta. Thats not a good argument. Even if its true. There are so many negatives about it, it doesn't help. > > It's one thing to make hypothetical arguments it's another thing to make common sense ones and ones that I think exist in reality which is all I have done here. Can't say the same for others. You mean when warriors would savage leap in, hit F1 and stow cancel it almost immediately because the 3s base immob hit on the first strike? Yes I remember those days very well, I remember playing necro back then and I can categorically say that as a necro if you were ever without stab you were 100% a liability. You forget that back then guards had 1 line and either 1 pull or ring of warding, hammer stun, static, unsteady ground and potentially spectral wall and all had no target limit except hammer stun. Put simply anyone without stab was far more at risk than anyone without a warrior. You also forget that guardians also converted conditions on both shouts and F2 as well as that consume conditions had a lower cool down, so yes necro was generally OK for condition cleansing. Still doesn’t change that you have almost no knowledge of blasting water fields, that’s not me possibly being right, that is a fact, look it up on the wiki, cleansing water only works off the ele giving regen, it says as such very clearly in the game. Saying that warrior blasting the water field is likewise wrong because the action of blasting did not cleanse, nor is there a base condition cleanse on call to arms, you must trait it to do so and back then it converted 1 condition, not cleanse. I haven’t conceded any points because you have been wrong on everything I mentioned, here’s the list again. Pick needed warriors/guards for cleanses if they got hit as they ran few if any of their own. Necros were in the melee train for stab and stab alone, not for warrior cleanses. Warriors blasting water fields never cleansed conditions from the blasting whether you have cleansing water or not. CI was nerfed the moment it had to compete with last stand. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Call_to_Arms https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Quick_Breathing&oldid=702433 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Cleansing_Water https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Consume_Conditions&oldid=727512 https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pure_of_Voice https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Absolute_Resolution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faaris.8013 Posted March 15, 2018 Share Posted March 15, 2018 I'm not very experienced in WvW, I sometimes join a zerg with my rifle Deadeye. Or rather, I stand behind the zerg and snipe. I think I have a rather fresh view on combat in WvW, I'm not entrenched on one side. What I noticed is that battles take forever and often end in a stalemate. Toons have way too much health and toughness to make interesting player versus player encounters. I certainly have not experienced any finer arts of warfare in this game mode, not sure there exists much strategy besides blob vs blob. I also joined the one or other discord channel to listen to the commander. My point is, if battles take too long, they wear you out. A few days ago I think I spent 2hours with a zerg trying to take a keep. After 2 hours of playing, there was no progress at all. The only difference was that players got xp, loot bags and reward track progress. The whole situation was the same as at the beginning. The whole thing was a static battle like in a game about Verdun in WW1. I cannot see how this is fun. In my opinion and experience with PvP, it's best to have few hit points and allow quick fights/battles. I was once attacking someone who guarded a pack dolyak (wanted to kill the dolyak), and I wasn't able to really do damage to him. He was just walking along and did nothing to defend himself. I quickly learned that being close to a dolyak makes you basically impervious to attacks, so I moved on. I also don't really see the point in doing battle over keeps, towers or even camps other than for points/pips. What are we fighting over? There are not even people living in these structures. There is no goal other than grinding for gear from my point of view. Nothing you do there has any lasting effect. It's not even wished because a map where your team has taken all facilities is a boring one, so people let the enemy take over camps, so they can retake them. You don't get participation by watching your conquered area idle. To make WvW more appealing to players like me, it would need to be much more fast paced, and more risk > reward centered. If balancing cannot do that, a luck factor would need to be in place. Battles take so long, everybody can just port to the waypoint and run back into battle while it's still ongoing, which makes them last even longer. Victory is achieved through attrition, not by swift battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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