Experiment: Remove DOWNED mechanic in sPvP for a week

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > @"Swagg.9236" said:

> > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > > > why on earth would removing a high risk high reward mechanic like downed make a fight more interesting?

> > >

> > > There is no risk associated with a guarantee. You don't have a chance or choice to go into downed state; you just get downed. There is no risk there. Moreover, the people who go to regularly rez downed allies in PvP deliberately gear up with passives and skills which isolate them from risk when reviving, making the process much more guaranteed. Downed in GW2 is not a risk or a reward in any circumstance; it's a forced meme and a general annoyance.

> >

> > ah im not talking about the downed person, obviously there is no risk/reward there. I'm talking about the typically built pvp player who wants to rez someone at the potential disastrous cost associated with being immobile next to a huge target. People who (strange and unlikely as it is) decide to setup for rezzing..well they are reacting to the additional gameplay choice offered as well in a different way because they see value in it. Theres a billion other games where you die..you timeout..you rez. Having something different is good otherwise every game becomes a cookie cutter dull copy of each other.

> >

>

> Like I said before, players who consistently go for rezzes build to do that in order to make the risk not so much of a risk. Thus not getting the rez is more of a failure than any reward.

>

> As for "different games are good," design variance *can* be good, but only if the different designs are different for well thought-out reasons. Downed state feels entirely more like a marketing-centric afterthought rather than something the game was designed around. The amount of skills and traits related to downed state, for instance, are almost non-existent when weighed against the remaining body of options (especially if you looked at that situation at launch). PvE has almost no enemies with downed state. Moreover, the downed state had bugs at launch (particularly related to necro life force pools). All of this taken together draws a up the reality of downed state as a stapled-on addition rather than something conceived as a core gameplay element. It'd be easy to cull it from the game, and the only thing that people would probably ask for in return would be a global damage nerf. That's not the hallmark of a fundamental game mechanic.

 

And as i said, that person who went for a rezzes build has obviously favoured rezzes. I think downed IS a good design choice because of the aforementioned reasons. I like the rewarding feeling if I manage to get a rez off, and im sure many other do too. 'stapled on' 'afterthought' 'marketing centric' are all subjective attempts to justify the removal of a thing you don't like.

 

There's a propensity by some modern players to try and rationalize/simplify/streamline/simplify to suit a chosen gameplaystyle - my way or the highway mentality in effect but Just because everyone doesn't like a thing doesn't mean the thing needs to get thrown out of the pram. Improved yes, but thrown away - that's wasteful and defeatist.

[MithranArkanere.8957]

It would only encourage even more heavy spam and first hit bursts.

[Atelia.4852]

Huh, that sounds interesting. I just think that if this happens, there should be a checkbox or separate arena or something, so those who really think this is a bad idea aren't forced to give up the downed state for a week.

[coro.3176]

It'd be a fun experiment, but .. what is even the point of scrapper now? Function gyro just does .. nothing?

[pah.4931]

> @"coro.3176" said:

> It'd be a fun experiment, but .. what is even the point of scrapper now? Function gyro just does .. nothing?

 

Ha! Good point.

 

They are actually doing this in WvW sometime soon... so I guess, yeah, Scrappers go home :D

[luke.5082]

Downed isn't pvp balanced very well. Some classes have far superior mechanics. That being said, I do enjoy the risk/reward of the resurrecting and rally as a whole. Right now the game is centered around trying to kill as quick as possible that there isn't much room for prolonged fights where your goal is to keep the other team off a goal so you can capture or keep captured, so I would like it to be harder to kill so quickly. It would be nice if some sort of global multiplier for damage was tested and I would be open to A/B test queuing (which for all we know is already happening).

 

Mostly pvp seems to suffer from not being a priority at all compared to pve and from a pvp development focus that seems to care about a small minority of "top" players instead of the overall experience.

[pah.4931]

> @"luke.5082" said:

> Downed isn't pvp balanced very well. Some classes have far superior mechanics. That being said, I do enjoy the risk/reward of the resurrecting and rally as a whole. Right now the game is centered around trying to kill as quick as possible that there isn't much room for prolonged fights where your goal is to keep the other team off a goal so you can capture or keep captured, so I would like it to be harder to kill so quickly. It would be nice if some sort of global multiplier for damage was tested and I would be open to A/B test queuing (which for all we know is already happening).

>

> Mostly pvp seems to suffer from not being a priority at all compared to pve and from a pvp development focus that seems to care about a small minority of "top" players instead of the overall experience.

 

The problem with slower kill times is that we'd have a return of some annoying Bunker Metas now that they've introduced support builds (at least, more than the core profs and design). When the game launched, some classes could KINDA support ... but in a world with Druids and FBs, you have to keep kill times pretty quick in a game mode designed around standing in a circle and surviving.

 

It's almost impossible to balance a this point -- and to your point, yes, PvP does not seem to get the attention it desperately needs.

[otto.5684]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> why on earth would removing a high risk high reward mechanic like downed make a fight more interesting?

 

What is higher risk a chance to come back after being defeated or no chance to come back?

 

I do not want the downed mechanic removed but altered, reducing Rez speed by half and hp deplete at double the current rate.

[mortrialus.3062]

I want to see this in Unranked just to see what it's like.

[Aktium.9506]

Lower all damage by 70-80% in PvP and it might be interesting.

 

With the current TTK it would be ridiculously bad.

[Namless.4028]

Could be an idea for one of the new ats

Or for a weekend in unranked

[Nappa.1904]

Downed mechanic in pvp never made sense to me. Rally needs to be removed from pvp if you're not willing to get rid of the downed state.

[pah.4931]

> @"Nappa.1904" said:

> Downed mechanic in pvp never made sense to me. Rally needs to be removed from pvp if you're not willing to get rid of the downed state.

 

It's true. The real problem is the rally mechanic. At the VERY LEAST it should be one rally per stomp. Especially since downstates aren't the same between profs.

 

Though in a 5v5 match (small teams) bleeding people off-point is a little too effective (and easy).

[Sorem.9157]

Can we just agree that ranger's downed state is OP and needs to be nerfed?

 

MIRAGES THOUGH

[Skittledness.5106]

> @"pah.4931" said:

> > @"Nappa.1904" said:

> > Downed mechanic in pvp never made sense to me. Rally needs to be removed from pvp if you're not willing to get rid of the downed state.

>

> It's true. The real problem is the rally mechanic. At the VERY LEAST it should be one rally per stomp. Especially since downstates aren't the same between profs.

>

> Though in a 5v5 match (small teams) bleeding people off-point is a little too effective (and easy).

 

Than if you don't have cds to kite die on point.

It's an objective based gamemode?

the only reason why conquest is the best gamemode is because anything over a 3v3 is terrible and since conquests forces people to split up by the nature of the game it forces you to take more skillful smaller engagements

[pah.4931]

> @"Skittledness.5106" said:

> > @"pah.4931" said:

> > > @"Nappa.1904" said:

> > > Downed mechanic in pvp never made sense to me. Rally needs to be removed from pvp if you're not willing to get rid of the downed state.

> >

> > It's true. The real problem is the rally mechanic. At the VERY LEAST it should be one rally per stomp. Especially since downstates aren't the same between profs.

> >

> > Though in a 5v5 match (small teams) bleeding people off-point is a little too effective (and easy).

>

> Than if you don't have cds to kite die on point.

> It's an objective based gamemode?

> the only reason why conquest is the best gamemode is because anything over a 3v3 is terrible and since conquests forces people to split up by the nature of the game it forces you to take more skillful smaller engagements

 

But you can still have conquest game mode without rally (or even downstate - though getting rid of downed is a bit ridiculous because there are a LOT of systems in place built around it).

[Icy.2186]

I liked downstate way earlier into the games life but coming back to the game, i resent it. And its mostly because of how much better some classes are at helping downstate and being downstate. Its kind of another layer of things to balance, which arent being balanced. Its a nice idea though.. /shrug

[Miles Smiles.8951]

"Remove downed mechanic" - no cancer rez skills, no cancer downstate CC and dmg - more fun. So that's a no, you're not allowed to have fun in this game anymore.

[pah.4931]

> @"Miles Smiles.8951" said:

> "Remove downed mechanic" - no cancer rez skills, no cancer downstate CC and dmg - more fun. So that's a no, you're not allowed to have fun in this game anymore.

 

Was playing yesterday and made a bad engage decision and was downed against a core guardian (shame on me for 1v1 on far as a reaper!) ... anyways, he was at half health after he healed after I was downed... and instead of stomping, he tried cleaving me (idiot). Not only did I down him, but I also killed him and rallied lol.

 

So yeah... there are some issues with downed state.

 

I think in sPvP they should give everyone the same downed state abilities. #1 Damage (to tag folks for rallies), #2 Interrupt, #3 AoE damge, #4 bandage.

[holodoc.5748]

> @"shippage.1983" said:

> no, downed mechanic is a great mechanic that is very unique to guild wars.

 

Which doesn't make it a good mechanic. The whole downed state thing comes down to punishing good players for the mistakes of bad ones.

[sephiroth.4217]

 

> @"shippage.1983" said:

> no, downed mechanic is a great mechanic that is very unique to guild wars.

 

You haven't played Borderlands before have you?

 

First time I saw the mechanic was in that game and that was released 2009 or something.

[milego.4830]

Other thing to consider is that without downed mechanics, high level players have more chances of winning outnumbered fights, therefore, high level players have more chances to carry their games as they are supposed to.

 

I would give it a shot just to see how things go.