Thief....

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Very strong points about potency-vs-duration and immob-vs-cripple guys. I 100% agree, DD is situational, however, in my observation, when my target sees the Torment condition, they voluntarily stop moving a.k.a. self-immobilization. Even for a second, it's enough time to catch up with them. My personal favorite is Scorpion Wire against runaways. Thanks guys, I always appreciate constructive feedback.

 

Curious about when's the best time to use Binding Shadow. Do you wait for the full stack of Malice or it doesn't matter?

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Very strong points about potency-vs-duration and immob-vs-cripple guys. I 100% agree, DD is situational, however, in my observation, when my target sees the Torment condition, they voluntarily stop moving a.k.a. self-immobilization. Even for a second, it's enough time to catch up with them. My personal favorite is Scorpion Wire against runaways. Thanks guys, I always appreciate constructive feedback.

>

> Curious about when's the best time to use Binding Shadow. Do you wait for the full stack of Malice or it doesn't matter?

 

If with others I use Binding right away as this generally can lead to a kill. In a 1v1 or 1v small group roam I will usually apply it right after my double confusuion application If I am in trickery. If I happen to be using the SA version of the build, I like to get at least 2 sneak attacks off for bleeds then apply. The number of poisons is not something I focus on as much when applying because by default I am getting these with greater frequency and to a higher number of stacks.

 

I am not too concerned about the full malice stack as far as duration goes on this skill. The 10 second base will usually last longer then the bleed or confusion stacks and I would rather get that Vuln on while those just applied to squeeze out those higher ticks for as long as possible.

[saerni.2584]

Against glass dps I tend to use it sooner to dominate the outcome. I don’t want to give a holo a chance to build up stability and burst me with gap closing for example.

 

Anything heavier I bait out the stability/stun breaks and resistance and then go for the Binding Shadow a bit later. That way I can get the strong knockdown for the full duration and get the full benefit from the vuln.

 

You will generally max out on malice pretty quickly against a target. So even a small delay in applying BS will add significant duration bonuses. It’s great for engi’s running the auto invuln trait because the poison on the BS alone in combo with the vuln is worth more than the rest of their hp bar, making it great to save for slightly later in a rotation versus an engi (but still use somewhat early if they are a burst holo).

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Both great ideas, thanks. I'll make some adjustments to my build to incorporate Binding Shadow.

 

One last question; any build out there that can hard counter this?

 

I know Power Daredevil counters my Immob from Needle Trap, specifically Staff DD. Any pointers?

[MUDse.7623]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Both great ideas, thanks. I'll make some adjustments to my build to incorporate Binding Shadow.

>

> One last question; any build out there that can hard counter this?

>

> I know Power Daredevil counters my Immob from Needle Trap, specifically Staff DD. Any pointers?

 

i do think many thief builds do not have a hard counter as played with caution they mostly can escape any single opponent. i personally do not play condition based builds as i do think they are too easy countered, maybe it is just because i played too much SA thief and that is pretty much unkillable by conditions but yeah only power, maybe hybrid builds for me.

if you post a finalized build on what you want to settle, one might be able to point out weak spots.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

Ok I've changed my build last night and it didn't work out for me as prescribed. I was using Rune of Thorns first and even though it hits hard, I am not able to close the deal. The 2,4,6 set bonus of the rune simply does nothing for my other conditions (e.g. Torment, Bleeding, etc.). I have another gear with Trapper Rune so I tried that. The difference is huge. I admit it's impossible for me to play full condition using DE, but the Trapper Rune gives that nice superspeed and stealth.

 

Using Trickery is suicide for me, so I stick with SA. I also resisted the urge to pick Deadly Trapper just to see the potential of Panic Strike. So I stand corrected that my initial claim that the Poison from the Panic Strike only last 4s actually it lasts 5.75s using Trapper Rune (longer with Thorns) for me. That is close enough to the 6s Deadly Trapper advantage. And this is without condition duration/expertise food. I still find double steal clunky but when I did it and saw that 20 stacks of poisons, it was very satisfying. It's a very good example of high risk, high reward. With this build, I don't even need CnD for stealth. And yes, Binding Shadow is now a staple for me.

 

I still need to get used to using Body Shot but overall it is a very good build. I have not seen a lot of people using this build (Condition DE) and it's definitely on a whole different level. I think this build just surpassed my hybrid in terms of damage output and survivability.

 

One thing I'm conflicted though between M7 and BQoBK. I use BQ to rapidly stack bleed and poison (Spider Venom) while M7 adds an extra 6% dmg in a long run. I'm still not sure if M7 is even worth it.

[Bananaling.9673]

ANET loves condi build remember how they killed GW1 .. healing condi build for everyone! L2balance Anet

[Lociaz.4027]

And the should not nerf the Upper Hand trait once again...

me and many peoples was talking about this in pre release notes, many peoples was with me to just do the changes for pvp not WvW and PvE.

So GG Anet.

Also 10 of my friends quitted cus of the nerf on AA on Dagger and Sword skills...

basically you wont se any thiefs in wvw and spvp.

 

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Lociaz.4027" said:

> And the should not nerf the Upper Hand trait once again...

> me and many peoples was talking about this in pre release notes, many peoples was with me to just do the changes for pvp not WvW and PvE.

> So GG Anet.

> Also 10 of my friends quitted cus of the nerf on AA on Dagger and Sword skills...

> basically you wont se any thiefs in wvw and spvp.

>

 

To be honest, WvW should have its own version separate from PvP and PvE. The conditions in these game modes are simply not the same.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Bananaling.9673" said:

> ANET loves condi build remember how they killed GW1 .. healing condi build for everyone! L2balance Anet

 

There is no "condi" build in GW1. There is a Hex Spike if that's what you mean.

[Lociaz.4027]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > @"Lociaz.4027" said:

> > And the should not nerf the Upper Hand trait once again...

> > me and many peoples was talking about this in pre release notes, many peoples was with me to just do the changes for pvp not WvW and PvE.

> > So GG Anet.

> > Also 10 of my friends quitted cus of the nerf on AA on Dagger and Sword skills...

> > basically you wont se any thiefs in wvw and spvp.

> >

>

> To be honest, WvW should have its own version separate from PvP and PvE. The conditions in these game modes are simply not the same.

 

Totaly AGREE!

And the max stacks should be 25 not 2500.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"Lociaz.4027" said:

> > @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> > > @"Lociaz.4027" said:

> > > And the should not nerf the Upper Hand trait once again...

> > > me and many peoples was talking about this in pre release notes, many peoples was with me to just do the changes for pvp not WvW and PvE.

> > > So GG Anet.

> > > Also 10 of my friends quitted cus of the nerf on AA on Dagger and Sword skills...

> > > basically you wont se any thiefs in wvw and spvp.

> > >

> >

> > To be honest, WvW should have its own version separate from PvP and PvE. The conditions in these game modes are simply not the same.

>

> Totaly AGREE!

> And the max stacks should be 25 not 2500.

 

Well, that's the problem. Players will practically melt with 25 stacks in PvP, but in WvW, there are bosses where 25 stacks are simply not enough. PvE needs more than 2500 stacks specifically in open world bosses.

[babazhook.6805]

To the two versions of P/d I use. They are DE/DA/TR (using BA) and DE/DA/SA (hidden thief rending)

 

The former can do much more damage with lead attacks/confusion but is also much weaker defensively. It low on cleanses and I see it more as a plus 1 type build. if you are roaming in a small group you would hang back, focus one of the guys your teamates engage and load with conditions. If you get singled out for focused attacks you in trouble. In a 1v1 it very much a who you face type, the nature of their build and who gets the first attack in.

 

For 1v1 and some more in the way of defenses DA/DE/SA works well. Much easier to cleanse conditions and you can get a lot of sneak attacks off withotu a CND (Hidden thief) Trappers runes are very good here as you can load a heal that does not have stealth and turn it into a stealth heal.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> To the two versions of P/d I use. They are DE/DA/TR (using BA) and DE/DA/SA (hidden thief rending)

>

> The former can do much more damage with lead attacks/confusion but is also much weaker defensively. It low on cleanses and I see it more as a plus 1 type build. if you are roaming in a small group you would hang back, focus one of the guys your teamates engage and load with conditions. If you get singled out for focused attacks you in trouble. In a 1v1 it very much a who you face type, the nature of their build and who gets the first attack in.

>

 

Yup, that's a suicide build for me.

 

> For 1v1 and some more in the way of defenses DA/DE/SA works well. Much easier to cleanse conditions and you can get a lot of sneak attacks off withotu a CND (Hidden thief) Trappers runes are very good here as you can load a heal that does not have stealth and turn it into a stealth heal.

 

This is what I did and it worked out just fine for me.

[UfoCoffee.2084]

I really don't get why they nerfed dagger damage? All serious thief players were S/D anyway. Backstab was already shit for the ammount of work and skill needed to land it, now it's absolutely pointless. They made the class less skillful. Cool tricks like BP,HS,SS then backstab were really fun when they landed. Now it's better to just spam SS.

[DeceiverX.8361]

Backstab damage was not nerfed for the millionth time.

 

AA chain sequence 1/2 were. BP+HS+Stab is literally unchanged. It's just the sequence of two hits after aren't going to hit as hard as the backstab itself like they did prior.

 

Backstabbing hasn't been damage-efficient in most PvP contexts in years because of SShot's efficacy and the asinine buffing of damage of dagger AA to match the HoT (and beyond) powercreep of damage and defense on other professions.

 

The only reason why dagger feels weak is because everything else has been overtuned to hell and back and because the overtuned AA is how the initiative costs on a number of skills being so high has been justified when everyone now basically has no cooldowns.

 

Ammo on weapon skills for a number of professions was a crap idea and defeated a lot of the purpose/relative strength of initiative as well.

 

AA reductions would be fine if they came with nerfs to everything else.

[saerni.2584]

> @"Sir Vincent III.1286" said:

> Ok I've changed my build last night and it didn't work out for me as prescribed. I was using Rune of Thorns first and even though it hits hard, I am not able to close the deal. The 2,4,6 set bonus of the rune simply does nothing for my other conditions (e.g. Torment, Bleeding, etc.). I have another gear with Trapper Rune so I tried that. The difference is huge. I admit it's impossible for me to play full condition using DE, but the Trapper Rune gives that nice superspeed and stealth.

>

> Using Trickery is suicide for me, so I stick with SA. I also resisted the urge to pick Deadly Trapper just to see the potential of Panic Strike. So I stand corrected that my initial claim that the Poison from the Panic Strike only last 4s actually it lasts 5.75s using Trapper Rune (longer with Thorns) for me. That is close enough to the 6s Deadly Trapper advantage. And this is without condition duration/expertise food. I still find double steal clunky but when I did it and saw that 20 stacks of poisons, it was very satisfying. It's a very good example of high risk, high reward. With this build, I don't even need CnD for stealth. And yes, Binding Shadow is now a staple for me.

>

> I still need to get used to using Body Shot but overall it is a very good build. I have not seen a lot of people using this build (Condition DE) and it's definitely on a whole different level. I think this build just surpassed my hybrid in terms of damage output and survivability.

>

> One thing I'm conflicted though between M7 and BQoBK. I use BQ to rapidly stack bleed and poison (Spider Venom) while M7 adds an extra 6% dmg in a long run. I'm still not sure if M7 is even worth it.

 

Or you can choose FfE for might. The added damage from might stacking off stolen skills (both personal and for allies) improves the solo and group contribution of the build.

[babazhook.6805]

Yeah I would not use M7 in a pure condition build. FFe is my go to for the might albeit BqoBK can work as well but the benefits of BqoBk are not as great as there only that one real Quickness source and the +200 +200 add to precision and power does little in a Condition build. (Unless you hybrid)

 

A single use of FFE is 8 might which is an added 240 to your Condition damage and is long lasting. Usually FFE is running you more than that. If you ramp up your might even as you apply Vuln with binding those condition ticks can really spike. 16 stacks might plus 10 confusion plus 10 bleeds 15 poison along with the Vuln see ALL three of those conditions tick higher due to the Might and Vuln. I see this combo as the Condition builds version of a Critical hit.

 

With the perfectionist kickin of 10 more might when FFE used in concert with this you generally push towards full might stacks and that kick in happens right when you tend to have the most conditions on. (remember that one in the chamber acts as a stolen skill as well if that trait chosen meaning another 8 might source right after a shadow meld or use of Binding. With FFE steal>apply stolen condition>apply Binding>apply refilled stolen item from one in the chamber is 16 might. Your condition power just jumped by 480)

[Turk.5460]

Does Malice even affect condition damage?

[babazhook.6805]

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Does Malice even affect condition damage?

 

Not condition damage directly. It does however add durations to various stolen skills and to Binding Shadow so if you were maxed on malice the Immob on Binding would be three seconds and the poison on it extend to 15. Where it most helpful in a Condition build using DE are very specific stolen skills such as Engineer stolen giving 10 seconds protection and applying 10 stacks of vuln for 10 seconds this without needing any condition duration in the build at all when malice at 5. Extending durations of covers makes cleanses harder to manage. As such I do not see much reason to use M7 or BqoBk.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> Or you can choose FfE for might. The added damage from might stacking off stolen skills (both personal and for allies) improves the solo and group contribution of the build.

 

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Yeah I would not use M7 in a pure condition build. FFe is my go to for the might albeit BqoBK can work as well but the benefits of BqoBk are not as great as there only that one real Quickness source and the +200 +200 add to precision and power does little in a Condition build. (Unless you hybrid)

>

 

Yeah, I didn't think M7 was worth it. Also yeah, I'm only using BQ for quickness.

 

I did try FfE but the clunkiness is unnerving. It takes 1/2s to apply the Mark, then another 1/2s to use the stolen item, then the whole process takes 2s if I did double steal - the casting time is even longer than 1/2s in real time. There's this after cast delay after Mark, it seems like it's waiting for the animation to finish, that the whole casting time is 3/4s. I could have 7 stacks of bleed and 6 stacks poison ticking for 2s in the same time frame with BQoBK.

 

The stolen items aren't even worth using unless I stole it from an Eng or a Mesmer. Even the stolen item from Mesmer is underwhelming since I get all boons from Core Steal.

 

I see what you guys are saying, 16 stacks of Might is not something I can ignore, but the clunkiness ruins my rhythm and I find myself fumbling - that's not fun for me.

 

I really wish DE Mark and stolen item are instant. The long cooldown should be sufficient to keep it balanced.

 

> @"Turk.5460" said:

> Does Malice even affect condition damage?

 

M7 offers several long-term bonuses;

- Sneak Attack and CnD deals more damage (+6% damage)

- Speeds up the Malice gain

- Malice cap boosts Binding Shadow

- Free heals at max Malice

- Malicious Restoration heals for more and removes 2 extra conditions

 

So the bonus is not directed towards condition damage.

[saerni.2584]

The Deadeye Stolen skills are instant cast and can be cast while channeling.

 

So if you trigger a stolen skill from stealth you will Sneak Attack and trigger the effect of the skill.

 

I find it gets less clunky when you factor in the ability to use extra stolen skills with One in the Chamber. You get an extra stolen skill with each Shadow Meld and with Binding Shadow (on a slight delay). So you can use the stolen skills as a supplement and you add in 10 more might from full malice (so there are periods of 25 might in play).

[babazhook.6805]

Yes, don't forget the one second ICD on FFE . I have at times been too quick ot use the skills in succcesion and lost the might application.

[saerni.2584]

> @"babazhook.6805" said:

> Yes, don't forget the one second ICD on FFE . I have at times been too quick ot use the skills in succcesion and lost the might application.

 

It’s now a half second.

[GenerationX.9178]

I think lot players shit on thief because they don’t actual know how to counter and how fragile they actually are. I don’t play my thief anymore because I refuse to run condition dodging or power dodging while spamming the 3 skill (unload,pistolwhip,flanking strikes). All classes now have so much utilies countrying theives. I am sad, I can do so much more then thief on every other class that it’s really not worth playing. Thief was good burst on one target not making it op. Now I can pull out my mesmer shatter 5 targets instantly and thief is op? Who’s going to keep mesmer in check with thief at the state it is? Mesmer is like a thief with range,stealth,invulnerability,mobility. Serious thief is just sad to think about now....I have killed every thief coming my way with little effort. I know it’s play style course helps lot but seriously. On mesmer I had thief kill himself off a reflection of his sniper. Thief by far isn’t op.