Feedback on the State of the Mesmer [merged]

[Legatus.3608]

> @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > > >

> > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > > >

> > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > > >

> > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > > >

> > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> > >

> > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> > >

> > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> > >

> > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> > >

> > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> > >

> > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> > >

> > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> > >

> > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

> >

> > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

> >

> > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

> >

> > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

>

> 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

>

> 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

> If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

>

> 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

> They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

> I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

>

> And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

> Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

 

1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch.

2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a damn drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty.

3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer.

 

I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so damn long.

[EUmad.7645]

mirage now has 2 common builds : power with gs and power with staff . Gs Mirage , now, after damage reduction is in my opinion strong but not op . You can kill it. Mirage with staff ( chaos, illusion , mirage ) is completely broken. You spawn a lot of boon and timing your ambush with staff and staff3 for swiftness you can do a lot of damage. In my opinion , if gs mesmer is strong like other specs ( for example boon holosmith ) staff mesmer is completely broken . the mobility is ok, all the spec is built on it. What is not ok is the mix damage, mobility , boons that you can achive

[will de grijze jager.6594]

> @"Abelisk.4527" said:

> Mirage is more broken than Daredevil, it's just that Mirage is harder to play for most of the community. The overwhelming function skills and when to use ambushes etc stumps most players.

 

harder to play i have not evven played mesmer for 5 hours and i can kill most people with mesmer. Mesmer is not even my play style so where is the harder to play in it.

[Felipe.1807]

> @"musu.9205" said:

> i don't know you guys

> but imagine you are a dev , you open pvp forum and see some posts about mesmer issues , you are like "oh i might need to check what's everyone opinion on mesmer after recent patch "

> you click those posts and what u read are just emotional words , random claim like infinite evade , stealth , block , boon , clones and stunbreak .

> you say to yourself "it seems people dislike mesmer now but i can't get any useful information about what's op , since those are not facts , guess i will move on "

>

> and you guys wonder why anet didn't do anything about mesmer based on your very "informative "posts .

> btw there is one post with at least more information about what each mesmer trait line does , the op opinion may be wrong for some , but at least he offered needed information to argue with .or you guys can keep going .

 

that might be true, but when you have 20+ threads with "emotional words" and "random claim" maybe its time for the dev to get on the game and check out whats is actually happening...the balance devs have such a high understanding of their own game, that I dont have to remind people here that one of then was owned by Svanir while showing Tempest...Mirage(and this whole mesmer rework) and Scourge were a huge mistake, they should be removed from competitive game(WvW and sPvP) till Anet figure out what to do with this 2 specs.

[ezd.6359]

> @"Kraitan.8476" said:

> 10+ different seperate posts discussing the current state & imbalance of mesmer. It would be nice if we could get at least a single reply or comment from Anets' side acknowledging the existence of this problem. aidsclass.

 

Even 1000 threads will not prove anything. The problem with 10 different topics is - someone creates too many topics.

 

In my opinion all these talks about low tier game play when newbies don't know what to do on the map are useless. I saw many mesmers on gold/plat level last season and i can't say they are my main concern. The problem on high levels is "tank meta" and mesmers in this situation not in best position. Thx god we will have less passives now, may be killing enemies as mesmer will worth time spent.

[Wichidi.9281]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Just undo the UC nerf and all the auto attack nerfs for thief and all is well.

>

> Edit: and take the cooldown off stealth attacks bro

>

>

>

> **Okay, I know some expected more, so I will give it.

> The mesmer may indeed be fine, but a few classes can't really compete. I won't give a list but I bet others can.

> How could you class be adjusted to make the fight more fair? Leave poor mesmer baby alone.**

 

the list of classes that cant compete: ele, necro, thief, engi, ranger, rev, war, guard

 

oh wait.. thats all classes besides mesmer...

 

whats easier? buffing all classes besides mesmer OR nerfing mesmer?

 

dam right, nerf mesmer. the title of this post alone makes me wanna puke.

[ezd.6359]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

 

Druid, Firebrand, Spellbreaker, Weaver, Holosmith, sometimes Daredevil

[apharma.3741]

> @"musu.9205" said:

> i don't know you guys

> but imagine you are a dev , you open pvp forum and see some posts about mesmer issues , you are like "oh i might need to check what's everyone opinion on mesmer after recent patch "

> you click those posts and what u read are just emotional words , random claim like infinite evade , stealth , block , boon , clones and stunbreak .

> you say to yourself "it seems people dislike mesmer now but i can't get any useful information about what's op , since those are not facts , guess i will move on "

>

> and you guys wonder why anet didn't do anything about mesmer based on your very "informative "posts .

> btw there is one post with at least more information about what each mesmer trait line does , the op opinion may be wrong for some , but at least he offered needed information to argue with .or you guys can keep going .

 

On the other hand you have a few mesmer mains (not meaning you btw) doing the opposite but yeah on the whole people are being far too emotional and not being objective enough nor are they properly analysing the problems. Many also can’t see the wood for the trees which is another major problem, they’re not looking at where the game is/should be going and instead only seeing the problems of now and perceived weaknesses in relation to current strengths.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

 

If you mean if there any class that always make mesmer life terrible? Thief it is ,2 steals,4plasma,unblockable sword 3's. Honestly i dont know , unless that thief is a potato .

[Nath Forge Tempete.1645]

> @"ezd.6359" said:

> > @"Crab Fear.1624" said:

> > Mesmer is fine if there is at least one challenge class. It does not have to be mine, but there should be 1 that can consistently make a mes worry.,

>

> Druid, Firebrand, Spellbreaker, Weaver, Holosmith, sometimes Daredevil

 

Before the patch ... I heard some legends saying holosmith (good ones) could beat some mesmers if they wasn't paying attention. Too bad that class is bugged now and has 0 dmg compared to its pre-patch version.

[musu.9205]

> @"Felipe.1807" said:

> > @"musu.9205" said:

> > i don't know you guys

> > but imagine you are a dev , you open pvp forum and see some posts about mesmer issues , you are like "oh i might need to check what's everyone opinion on mesmer after recent patch "

> > you click those posts and what u read are just emotional words , random claim like infinite evade , stealth , block , boon , clones and stunbreak .

> > you say to yourself "it seems people dislike mesmer now but i can't get any useful information about what's op , since those are not facts , guess i will move on "

> >

> > and you guys wonder why anet didn't do anything about mesmer based on your very "informative "posts .

> > btw there is one post with at least more information about what each mesmer trait line does , the op opinion may be wrong for some , but at least he offered needed information to argue with .or you guys can keep going .

>

> that might be true, but when you have 20+ threads with "emotional words" and "random claim" maybe its time for the dev to get on the game and check out whats is actually happening...the balance devs have such a high understanding of their own game, that I dont have to remind people here that one of then was owned by Svanir while showing Tempest...Mirage(and this whole mesmer rework) and Scourge were a huge mistake, they should be removed from competitive game(WvW and sPvP) till Anet figure out what to do with this 2 specs.

 

from anet point of view , it won't be wise to remove entire elite spec from one game mode due to the amount complaint ,not to mention some of them (not all )are old "l2p "problem which is caused by mesmer core mechanic -clone or gamewide mechanic - stealth . i meant , how broken a spec should be in order for anet to pull that move : remove it from pvp entirely until balance patch and what decides that ? look at pvp forum , anet shouldn't give those posts too much credit .human impression , flawed by its nature .

 

solution is always same tho anet has to do balance patch more often . ideally it would be a balance patch /2 weeks - 1 month. they can deal with broken spec fast also less people will worry about nerf into ground treatment . meaning , we won't have so much pointless argument

 

[ScottBroChill.3254]

the constant daze+stun needs a bit toning down. If you don't have a block or long evade available there is no surviving. You can't stun break the first one because there are like 5 (maybe not that many) total stuns in a row and if you let them all hit you then you have stacks of condis on you as well or just a large damage spike that will kill you. So you can't stop it once its happening and it's incredibly frustrating.

[brannigan.9831]

No the idea is not that thieves will take care of them. There are 5 slots in a group there isn't a thief in every match. Hard counters are bad. Someone shouldn't have to switch to a thief if there is a mesmer. That is the dumbest kind of balance in a game with 5 groups slots and what 9 classes. Mesmers are too strong overall so they need to be brought down some. Its simple.

[Odik.4587]

> @"brannigan.9831" said:

> No the idea is not that thieves will take care of them. There are 5 slots in a group there isn't a thief in every match. Hard counters are bad. Someone shouldn't have to switch to a thief if there is a mesmer. That is the dumbest kind of balance in a game with 5 groups slots and what 9 classes. Mesmers are too strong overall so they need to be brought down some. Its simple.

 

Since you saying yourself hardcoutners are bad, can we remove plasma from the game ? (4 plasma its kinda aids)

And what you talking about seriously ? IF enemy team have firebrand+scourge and you dont you are in disadvantage. Its just a small example .

[Odik.4587]

> @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I thought Vaans was dishonored for 3 months, why do I see him on stream

> >

> > He sold his main account and plays on new one.

>

> pretty sure I see him in wvw with the same title ect just last week on FSP.

 

He wintraded that title on NA with alt account, i even know who was helping him :) (otherwise why he would wintrade on EU once more? lol)

[Fat Disgrace.4275]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > I thought Vaans was dishonored for 3 months, why do I see him on stream

> > >

> > > He sold his main account and plays on new one.

> >

> > pretty sure I see him in wvw with the same title ect just last week on FSP.

>

> He wintraded that title on NA with alt account, i even know who was helping him :) (otherwise why he would wintrade on EU once more? lol)

 

oh, my mistake. thought he wintraded on EU.

[Crab Fear.1624]

Nine. And then you said there were two memesers. Let's see. Nine +Nine = Eighteen! I saw a picture with three on a team in a match. Let's see. Nine + Nine + Nine....hmm this is a tough one...that's Twenty-seven....27. But wait. we forgot the memeser themselves. Twenty-seven + three = winding up for this one. The thinking box is really starting to ache. .......ooooohhhh....That's Thirty.

 

But I see your logic anet. Thirty is the new twenty. So it aint that many.

 

The total is 20 right? Twenty minus three memesers...that's Seventeen , Seventeen divided between 3 memesers is ~5.7 each. We can round it down because reasons.

 

So that makes only 5 summons per memeser.

 

See? All is well. FIVE

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > What?!?!?! You mean the thing Thief has been able to do since launch?!?!?

> >

> > Few tips, Mesmer only has 3 uninterruptable sources of stealth, each one lasts 3 seconds, so you're exaggerating. EM gives exhaustion now so a lot of people are ditching it since it's about as kitten as could be. Reflects are tied to evasions which has an ICD. Daze is only spammable with Mirage sword, stop exaggerating. Invuln happens for about 4 seconds every 50 seconds, stop exaggerating.

> >

> > We get it, you don't like the purple butterfly class, stop exaggerating.

>

> Quick note, but signet of midnight only gives 2 seconds of stealth baseline, and its the third uninterruptible source of stealth we have. Still though, I wouldn't mind losing stealth on one of those skills, and in return buffing veil to be 3 seconds baseline. I really want to see the overall access to stealth in this game be brought down.

 

I was counting Desperate Decoy since I keep forgetting Midnight actually gives stealth now.

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"Swagger.1459" said:

> All the devs need to do is change the AI to not look like the player character. These AI need their own unique, and identifiable, models.

 

Good suggestion.

[Rezzet.3614]

stealth isnt the problem its all the cc clear and mobility tools, mesmers teleport and blink nonstopthat's the problem

when it comes to stealth all mesmer needs is 1-2s stealth to disengage skills and get to safety

 

basically the same issue as thief

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > @"Daishi.6027" said:

> > > > > > > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> > > > > > > Basically if you were to compare thief and mesmer, they're very similar classes except for the fact that thief gives up its HP pool for the things it has, and mesmer GAINS clones instead of giving something up.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sure it has some advantages, but it's hard to argue that it's better than simple direct near instant damage that a thief has. People complain about the mesmer GS shatter burst, but thief on one set, can attempt a similar play more frequently that doesn't rely on an awkward bounce, and can do so without blowing a major tool that is part of your survivability.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The problem I mostly have is people arguing that the nerfs that came for mes was not enough. Where on top of hard damage number nerfs a significant amount of might stacking was cut off which is more impactful than people realize and brings it in line with the passive sustain and survivability nerfs, and corresponding damage reductions.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > People will continue to complain about mirage's ability to doge/immune, but it's still the same few cooldowns majoirty of the cast has, and mirage unlike them uses those base doges for offensive purposes, and expends their entire pool of resources to amplify one of the cooldowns doge.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > vigor supports some of it, but is a grand total of 3 sec per shatter unless dueling line which some of the popular builds didn't even run.

> > > > > > This entire thing is a farce, people will learn to counter it with enough time and it wont seem like such a big deal, just like clasic 4/4/6 power shatter from wayyy back when everyone called it OP before learning how to doge it.

> > > > >

> > > > > (1)**Blowing your survivability, well I disagree with that completely. It's true in a direct sense - clones contribute to your survivability because it creates more confusion and more targets to tab through for your opponents.** (3)But it's not true in the grand picture, the clones you lost cost you almost nothing. In the worst case you were relying on the clones to confuse your opponent and they didn't, in the best case the clone wasn't confusing anyone and you shattered it. (2)**The passive damage from it is basically irrelevant - the main purpose of that clone in your build is to be shattered and it does relatively little outside of that role or the role of confusing your opponent.** (3)You will simply spam more clones, and you have enough evasion to not worry about losing those clones to begin with. They are, like I said, merely a free bonus for being a mesmer on top of all those defenses where thief lost a ton of HP and teamfight capability to get those evades.

> > > >

> > > > (1) I was referring more to blink being a meaty cooldown that can be strong defensively as part of the gap closer when at any range 450 for jaunt is awkward, or needing it for key removal depending on the build vs match-up... Which either or is lot of the time.

> > > >

> > > > (2) I'm well aware of their useless-ness outside a resource, that is what the point I was making, but if you agree then you should understand why it's not really something you should have to give up damage for, which was a significant point with the feb patch. Either way in Conquest, Stronghold, those 2v2 maps (no one plays cuz there is no queue for them), and 1v1 duels (an unsupported format); Only bads lose to visual noise. This is a noob curve EVERYONE eventually goes through, complains about being brokenly OP, then surpasses because the gimmick wears off quick. Maybe it screws with tab targeting a little, at worst. These are absolutely the people we SHOULD NOT balance based on their opinion.

> > > >

> > > > (3) Clones are not super easy to produce, nor are they fun to.

> > > > Thief by comparison gets it's resource automatically or has skills and traits that create more. Thief can stay in stealth or get some distance and regain. Attacking when it suits them.

> > > > For Mesmers most need a target and line of sight. Along with that they are spawned by weapon skills where majority don't do anything of note, some skills with decent 'react-able to' cast times, and others with lengthy cooldowns.

> > > > Mesmers with main hand sword usually get 1 clone on mainhand, that spawns at your target and is easy to cleave, doing so will prevent the mesmer from swaping with. Majority of the offhands get 1 phantasm.

> > > > On Staff you get 2 phants and a clone, and 1 clone.

> > > > GS is 1 clone 1 phant unless traited.

> > > >

> > > > On average that is a grand total of 2 illusions per weapon set, until traits.

> > > > As for traits virtually no one runs deceptive evasion anymore, and Self-deception gives you a clone on only jaunt cuz no one really runs the other deceptions seriously.

> > > > Unless chrono where you can do a combo twice and flood a room **you cannot just "spam" clones.** (and this thread is about mirage)

> > > >

> > > > It might be tomato-tomahto and to closely comparing classes but as a resource that is required I think it's very inferior to the ini system, and just a bad version of the adrenaline system. You have to be doing something to someone already to get the resources to actually harm them, as opposed to you know, just harming them. The exception to this, being one fairly avoidable combo, that something like the dual sword/staff builds has 0 access to.

> > > > Plus although the damage especially on phants has gone up since the feb patch, outside of well placed shatters, it's damage is still out classed by war and thief. Both btw having access to strong unblockable hits, negating a major defense type. (of invuln/doge/blocks/immunities type things)

> > > >

> > > > I don't know what you define as spamming but the numbers don't add up to what you suggest. Also if not being kind of inferior, it's at least fiddly, and it's still a kill-able resource.

> > > > Ultimately it's not a bonus, it's a burden with a fancy gimmick.

> > > >

> > > > Since the feb patch's global buffs and reworking things yes I agree Mesmer doesn't give up anything stat wise to have clones, it used to, not anymore; that is because having clones as a resource has it's own drawbacks that by it's default nature demands something in exchange that would normally not be a problem for the rest of the roster.

> > >

> > > You need to make your points more concise. I'm not going to spend decades deciphering your paragraphs, and a lot of the further comments you're typing don't match with earlier comments. You need to be consistent as well.

> > >

> > > 1. Your original comment was that thief can mimick mesmer burst but without blowing its defensive cooldowns to do so. I commented that clones aren't much of a defensive cooldown and are more of a constant in any mesmer build. Now you're saying you were talking about blink, which has really nothing to do with any of this.

> > > 2. The point isn't that you need to give up damage for clones, the point is that thief gives up HP and teamfighting for mobility/dodging and mesmer gains clones instead of giving anything up for its mobility/dodging.

> > > 3. Yes, they are super easy to produce depending on build or timing, and it doesn't matter whether they're fun, they exist regardless.

> > >

> > > As for clones dying to aoe, well, that means they did their job soaking damage instead of the mesmer, does it not? You traded ̶d̶a̶m̶a̶g̶e̶ shatter potential for your own survival in that instance. A thief would just be on the floor bleeding out because he for some reason happened to be standing in a circle for a second too long.

> >

> > 1. I said they can mimic the burst more frequently. That means employing back stab combos, pistol whip combos, S/D advances at a reasonable distance with mostly spending initiative, which automatically refills and requires no ramp unless you've burnt it all, and even then it's as simple as just standing there. On top of that, thief has steal. Mesmer by comparison has blink which is safer as a mobility or defensive/re-positioning tool. This is fine, except Mesmer has ramp for damage and more limited options to engage presuming the gs combo is avoided, assuming if GS is even being run.

> >

> > 2. With the drawbacks of clones, including the ramp required for damage (outside of the one combo); that is enough of a trade off for the mobility. Mesmer doesn't actually doge more than many other classes, and some including thief and ranger still has more.

> > If you don't know what I'm talking about I listed those drawbacks prior.

> >

> > 3. Please list how it is super easy, and then please follow up with in what way after drawing that conclusion that it's not super limited, especially by contrast to thief.

> > They are "there" yes, but just saying "it's easy and they are there!" leans towards ignorance of the classes and how it compares to everything else. Which since day 1 has been the leading cause of complains about Mesmer.

> > I guess it's "super easy" in that 1 cooldown button push = 1 clone (sometimes 2). But a staple ½ cast time, and 12 sec c/d for 1 clone is far from "spammable" and easy to just replenish. Also compared to many other classes that use resources it's super easy to punish both before and after it's creation.

> >

> > And no AoEs typically hit the clones AND the Mesmer, and being almost just as squishy depending on the AoE would be equally as dead, or a sliver before at best.

> > Real difference is when mes escapes the red circle by any normal means that any class can use, it's resources that they have to take time to create are now gone.

>

> 1. I think I understand what you were saying now about blink, but the point you made is irrelevant - backstab is both harder to land and does less damage than a mesmer shatter, ISN'T AOE, and the damage from backstab burst chains were ALSO reduced significantly in the latest patch as well as the damage of all thief meta build autos and LS/FS. Mesmer received no such damage nerf that I can find (I saw one trait change from 15 to 10% damage bonus), in fact shatters were not even MENTIONED anywhere in the patch notes except for an update to the tooltip of distortion, and mesmers were already pushing thieves out of their role before this patch.

> 2. What drawback of clones? They don't have a kitten drawback, they're providing you offensive and defensive bonuses before they are shattered. Backstab requires you to somehow find your opponent facing away from you while not blocking, dodging, or otherwise using anything defensive in a space of 3 seconds, shatter requires you to have clones, it's not different in level of difficulty.

> 3. Mirror blade: 8s cd, Illusory leap 12s cd, phantasmal berserker 15s cd, mirage thrust (essentially 20s cd without vigor on an ammo of 2). jaunt 20s cd up to 3 ammo, phantasmal mage 30s cd. This is assuming you are not running imagined burden and/or mirror images and/or decoy. You're telling me this is not a sufficient number of tools to generate 3 clones every time you want to shatter? If you're telling me this isn't enough tools for you to generate clones then I don't know what to tell you. These skills occupy such a large portion of your skill bar that you'd have to be ACTUALLY AFK in order to not be generating clones, otherwise you'd run out of non-clone-cooldowns to use trying to do things that don't generate clones. That's how difficult it is to NOT generate clones on a mesmer.

>

> I have a mesmer, I've played it quite extensively and compared to my thief (which is my main) it's basically better at everything you want to do in the game. I'm frankly about to start maining my mesmer just by the virtue of it being absolutely batshit broken for so kitten long.

 

1. Shatters have one very meticulous engage combo in which it is difficult to dodge them, otherwise the moment you see clones making a beeline towards you, you should be prepared to dodge. Backstab isn't hard to land, you're in stealth, your enemy intrinsically has no idea which direction you will be approaching/striking from other than being able vaguely guess you're going for the backstab.

2. Clones are paper, that's the drawback, they can be killed before they even actually shatter and that doesn't fix the damage coefficient on the rest of the shatters that actually make it.

3. You can only shatter once every 12 seconds, having thousands of clones is useless once your main form of attack nullified. And if you don't interrupt Signet of Illusions you deserve to get hit again.

 

Wow suddenly thief is no longer the curbstomp king. Doesn' t mean mesmer is broken by any measure.

[Ario.8964]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Imperadordf.2687" said:

>

> > -Making Chronophantasma recharge that phantasm skill, instead of passively spawning it. This would add more active gameplay and reduce the visual noise.

> > -Adding a cap of maximum 3 active phantasms.

>

> Could you explain in more detail how that might work? I'm reading this a huge buff that will break the game.

> I have this visual in my mind of someone spamming Illusionary Berserker faster than a Thief can spam Unload...

>

> I also have to ask where Continuum Split and Signet Of Ether falls into any of this, for both the Phantasma trait and the 3 cap.

>

>

>

 

If I understood it correctly, chronophantasma would recharge the skill that created the phantasm rather than autospawn the phantasm after it dies.

 

However, I don't think it is a good idea. The only reason I say this is because of mesmer shield 4 being a phantasm creating skill. If chronophantasma recharged that you'd have mesmer able to chain 8 seconds of block (I believe it's 2 per shield cast with 2 uses before the skill goes on recharge so 4 for one use and then having it recharged would give it 8) and it could then go up to 16 seconds with the signet heal. Unless a cd was introduced to the trait it would be way too powerful for any shield users that took the trait.

[Vicariuz.1605]

> @"Wichidi.9281" said:

> > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said:

> > Fun thing is though,nerf after nerf after nerf and the mesmer class is considered OP lol.

>

> only condi mirage has been nerfed.

>

> meanwhile they reworked the phantasm system and made it completly OP and power mirage has never gotten any nerfs lol

 

Pretty sure they nerfed several things used in power builds in the LATEST patch. They could use a shave again, but thats it. you people seriously need to L2P.

[Chilli.2976]

> @"Aza.2105" said:

> 

 

Are we playing spot the difference?

 

 

[Solori.6025]

> @"Chilli.2976" said:

> > @"Aza.2105" said:

> > 

>

> Are we playing spot the difference?

>

>

 

3 clones were shattered, 2 warlocks were disappearing, 2 more resummoned from chrono phantasma, one clone summoned from im guessing staff 2, and one was resummoned from the trait in the chrono line.

If you saw continuum rift.

 

Why did you stand their and not hit it to force the mesmer back to that location?

 

Whats interesting is that you were somehow confused from shattered clones?

How do you get confused from clones that are clearly in the shattered position?

 

 

How are phantasms confusing you? They look nothing like the real mes ( they are very much colored differently AND named differently)