Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aridon.8362 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 Mirage isn't the problem here, mesmer is, you can go whatever and still win. If you not good enough then the simple response is you need to get good. Mesmer is going to get a buff on the Feb 6 patch, and they will be worse than the condi scourge back in November/December last year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted January 31, 2018 Share Posted January 31, 2018 > @"saerni.2584" said: > Mirage isn’t so OP it can carry in a team fight. But it can do overly well in 1v1 and can apply large amounts of confusion consistently enough while evading to pose some issues. > > Tune down the 1v1 and add in some group utility and it’s fine. Honestly that is a bad idea. Just nerf its ability to apply that many stackss of confusion in a short time and reduce the effectiveness of elusive mind. Group utility is more suitable to the chrono spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. I'm referring to teamfights. The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: It's ok to be high damage, but not at the level of tankiness mirages can support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. > > I'm referring to teamfights. > > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** > > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukio blaster.9082 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"flog.3485" said: > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > Mirage isn’t so OP it can carry in a team fight. But it can do overly well in 1v1 and can apply large amounts of confusion consistently enough while evading to pose some issues. > > > > Tune down the 1v1 and add in some group utility and it’s fine. > > Honestly that is a bad idea. Just nerf its ability to apply that many stackss of confusion in a short time and reduce the effectiveness of elusive mind. Group utility is more suitable to the chrono spec. what you are saying here is the same as "nerf the ability to make damage form very hit that a warrior can do" if you remove the confusion stacks from mesmer it will became a useless clone fiesta. the solution is you should lean how to dodge the bursts and not only care about cleans the conditions that how you play vs a mesmer the confusion is a burst condi like power damage the torment is useless was it on high or low stacks the burst don't last long and confusion above 6 stacks is just a tickle with no significant damage .and probably gonna be cleans before new stacks of confusion get on target then how a mesmer suppose to kill anyone then !!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guizao.4167 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > Mirage isn’t so OP it can carry in a team fight. But it can do overly well in 1v1 and can apply large amounts of confusion consistently enough while evading to pose some issues. > > > > > > Tune down the 1v1 and add in some group utility and it’s fine. > > > > Honestly that is a bad idea. Just nerf its ability to apply that many stackss of confusion in a short time and reduce the effectiveness of elusive mind. Group utility is more suitable to the chrono spec. > what you are saying here is the same as "nerf the ability to make damage form very hit that a warrior can do" if you remove the confusion stacks from mesmer it will became a useless clone fiesta. > the solution is you should lean how to dodge the bursts and not only care about cleans the conditions that how you play vs a mesmer the confusion is a burst condi like power damage the torment is useless was it on high or low stacks the burst don't last long and confusion above 6 stacks is just a tickle with no significant damage .and probably gonna be cleans before new stacks of confusion get on target then how a mesmer suppose to kill anyone then !!!!! Confusion isn't a burst condition because the devs split its damage into two forms: the tickling low damage and the skill activation damage. If we go back in time when confusion just had the skill activation damage it still can't be classified as a "burst condition". Burning fits this perfectly. It deals decent damage on low stacks and insane amounts of damage when stacked above 8. That's a burst condition (don't get the word please :D). I'd also argue that poison can be considered a burst condition but it requires more stacks in order to compete with Burning. Bleed is out of question since it's only threatening when it either lasts for a long time or it's stacked above 10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghos.1326 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > Stop saying that Mirage is OP cos this is stupid and this is why: > 1. Mirage can't hold a point. > 2. Mirage can't one shot. > 3. It's more or less like a thief good in roaming and +1 but slower than a thief only can compete with a thief if you play sword and if so the condi damage is minor. > 4. The good skills have long couldown's like torch 1 and 2 and torch 1 is so ez to be evaded with the sound effect so all you need to do is to wait 2.5sec and dodge or just move away especially the mesmer is slower than chrono(+25% speed). > 5. The only problem is that mirage is all around cos it's the most fun class to play was it in pvp or pve and mirage is good vs core builds in general but not the SD thief(so much evades and free teleports and spam-able unblockable ). > 6. Torment is not a good condi however the only good condi a mesmer can do is confusion forcing the high lvl players to disengage so they don't suicide using skills however the stupid players keep fighting and die and blame mirage for being op when the only problem is him being stupid ,so if you remove the confusion damage the condi mesmer in general gonna be useless and everyone gonna swap to power chrono if they are die-hard mesmers or just change the class . > > and i will list here the real broken classes: > * The one shot power ele . > * The one shot core gard . > * Druid so much damage from the pets and so much heal and can hold a point vs 2 > * S/D thief with the spam-able unblockable with 5k+ damage with crits with an evade frame what more you can ask for. > * P/P thief is op it the best version of deadeye and its not played in high lvl games simply cos they are ashamed to play it cos it's so ez . > * Scourge is lovley corupption is real in huge AOE's and the bariers make the scourge harder to kill more than a reaper if in good hands . > * ~~power rev~~ removed from the list till it show up on the next meta(due the public demand) > * The lovly FB support . > * The cute HOLO. > * The shy one shot power Mesmer (added due the public demand ) > * The scary SB with perma resistance and double swing kill. > and more..... > > > > 1. mirage CAN one shot. check out power mirage with shatters and greatsword.... 2. 18-20 stacks of confusion, almost constantly. 3. many other condis, almost constantly, and high stacks. 4. stealth, reflect, ports that also confuse, and low cd on burst skills that can, as listed in 1, one shot. 5. torment is very good..... yeah, mirage is pretty op man. it's way too strong for all the things it can do as it stands right now. 10+ seconds of a condition that is supposed to be burst, while also keeping it at a 14+ stack all the time is a little op. one can say "just don't attack them" but if you don't attack them, you can't pressure them, and if you can't pressure them, they can just chase you down and kill you quick. no counterplay to a mesmer right now in general, and that is not balanced. that is op. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yukio blaster.9082 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ghos.1326" said: > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > Stop saying that Mirage is OP cos this is stupid and this is why: > > 1. Mirage can't hold a point. > > 2. Mirage can't one shot. > > 3. It's more or less like a thief good in roaming and +1 but slower than a thief only can compete with a thief if you play sword and if so the condi damage is minor. > > 4. The good skills have long couldown's like torch 1 and 2 and torch 1 is so ez to be evaded with the sound effect so all you need to do is to wait 2.5sec and dodge or just move away especially the mesmer is slower than chrono(+25% speed). > > 5. The only problem is that mirage is all around cos it's the most fun class to play was it in pvp or pve and mirage is good vs core builds in general but not the SD thief(so much evades and free teleports and spam-able unblockable ). > > 6. Torment is not a good condi however the only good condi a mesmer can do is confusion forcing the high lvl players to disengage so they don't suicide using skills however the stupid players keep fighting and die and blame mirage for being op when the only problem is him being stupid ,so if you remove the confusion damage the condi mesmer in general gonna be useless and everyone gonna swap to power chrono if they are die-hard mesmers or just change the class . > > > > and i will list here the real broken classes: > > * The one shot power ele . > > * The one shot core gard . > > * Druid so much damage from the pets and so much heal and can hold a point vs 2 > > * S/D thief with the spam-able unblockable with 5k+ damage with crits with an evade frame what more you can ask for. > > * P/P thief is op it the best version of deadeye and its not played in high lvl games simply cos they are ashamed to play it cos it's so ez . > > * Scourge is lovley corupption is real in huge AOE's and the bariers make the scourge harder to kill more than a reaper if in good hands . > > * ~~power rev~~ removed from the list till it show up on the next meta(due the public demand) > > * The lovly FB support . > > * The cute HOLO. > > * The shy one shot power Mesmer (added due the public demand ) > > * The scary SB with perma resistance and double swing kill. > > and more..... > > > > > > > > > > 1. mirage CAN one shot. check out power mirage with shatters and greatsword.... > 2. 18-20 stacks of confusion, almost constantly. > 3. many other condis, almost constantly, and high stacks. > 4. stealth, reflect, ports that also confuse, and low cd on burst skills that can, as listed in 1, one shot. > 5. torment is very good..... > yeah, mirage is pretty op man. it's way too strong for all the things it can do as it stands right now. 10+ seconds of a condition that is supposed to be burst, while also keeping it at a 14+ stack all the time is a little op. one can say "just don't attack them" but if you don't attack them, you can't pressure them, and if you can't pressure them, they can just chase you down and kill you quick. no counterplay to a mesmer right now in general, and that is not balanced. that is op. > The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!! and the confusion is a burst condition more or less like power damage and confusion with 6 or less stacks is useless and the bursts aren't on low cooldowns and what you said about keeping +14 stack all the time is a lie unless you are a golem torment is useless need to be on high stacks to do significant damage the only good condi is burn but that's only available for the bust in high cd . and about power mirage one shooting it's actually a core mesmer mechanic and he was here before even HOT but my post was about the condi mirage or condi mesmer in general he was never a thing since lunch of gw2 and now when people started playing it everyone is hating him and crying for nerf so he disappear again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasdwer.3721 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." The difference is that thief is very vulnerable to stuns, dp thief has only 1 stunbreaker with 50 seconds cds, sdcore has an additonal one with 35 seconds cd while mesmer has a stunbreaker on his dodge, a longer dodge duration AND can still stomp/attack while dodging mirage is the unnerfed daredevil version of early HoT on steroids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 We don't have a downvote option of course. Sadly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flog.3485 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Guizao.4167" said: > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > @"flog.3485" said: > > > > @"saerni.2584" said: > > > > Mirage isn’t so OP it can carry in a team fight. But it can do overly well in 1v1 and can apply large amounts of confusion consistently enough while evading to pose some issues. > > > > > > > > Tune down the 1v1 and add in some group utility and it’s fine. > > > > > > Honestly that is a bad idea. Just nerf its ability to apply that many stackss of confusion in a short time and reduce the effectiveness of elusive mind. Group utility is more suitable to the chrono spec. > > what you are saying here is the same as "nerf the ability to make damage form very hit that a warrior can do" if you remove the confusion stacks from mesmer it will became a useless clone fiesta. > > the solution is you should lean how to dodge the bursts and not only care about cleans the conditions that how you play vs a mesmer the confusion is a burst condi like power damage the torment is useless was it on high or low stacks the burst don't last long and confusion above 6 stacks is just a tickle with no significant damage .and probably gonna be cleans before new stacks of confusion get on target then how a mesmer suppose to kill anyone then !!!!! > > Confusion isn't a burst condition because the devs split its damage into two forms: the tickling low damage and the skill activation damage. If we go back in time when confusion just had the skill activation damage it still can't be classified as a "burst condition". Burning fits this perfectly. It deals decent damage on low stacks and insane amounts of damage when stacked above 8. That's a burst condition (don't get the word please :D). I'd also argue that poison can be considered a burst condition but it requires more stacks in order to compete with Burning. Bleed is out of question since it's only threatening when it either lasts for a long time or it's stacked above 10. I think you are wrong as well. On Reddit, the devs explicitly stated that confusion was supposed a bursty kind of damage and even if it weren't, mesmer has overall always relied on burst damages when it comes to sPvP meta build whether it comes from power or condi. I don't think here we will be looking at big nerfs to how mesmer apply confusion or even how many stacks the mirage will be able to apply necessarily. However the devs can modify how bursty the confusion can be by changing the nature of confusion and by offering WwW/PvP splits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Velimere.7685 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > We don't have a downvote option of course. Sadly. We used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Kasdwer.3721" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > The difference is that thief is very vulnerable to stuns, dp thief has only 1 stunbreaker with 50 seconds cds, sdcore has an additonal one with 35 seconds cd > while mesmer has a stunbreaker on his dodge, a longer dodge duration AND can still stomp/attack while dodging > mirage is the unnerfed daredevil version of early HoT on steroids Mesmer is also very vulnerable to stun and doesn't have the daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense. A thief can stomp from stealth which has significantly longer duration and more frequent use than even a PU Mesmer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lalainnia.3598 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Kasdwer.3721" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > > > The difference is that thief is very vulnerable to stuns, dp thief has only 1 stunbreaker with 50 seconds cds, sdcore has an additonal one with 35 seconds cd > > while mesmer has a stunbreaker on his dodge, a longer dodge duration AND can still stomp/attack while dodging > > mirage is the unnerfed daredevil version of early HoT on steroids > > Mesmer is also very vulnerable to stun and doesn't have the daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense. A thief can stomp from stealth which has significantly longer duration and more frequent use than even a PU Mesmer. Huh what is daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense, are you talking about headshot from oh pistol?????? Also condi Mirages are no where near as vulnerable to stuns as DDs between distort, signet of midnight, blink, and even just dodging while cc'ed untraited or traited. As for the stealth bit thieves can still be cc'ed or take damage while stealthed mostly from aoes while mirage cloak is a personal distort and guaranteed stomp unless the downed target moves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > > > > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. > > > > I'm referring to teamfights. > > > > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > > > > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > > > > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** > > > > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." I've had numerous cases where a mesmer laid on 21+ stacks of confusion on me from stealth in less than a second, plus cover condis (mainly weakness, vuln, and cripple). To pour salt on the wound, attempting to cleanse the confusion would come close to killing me, because swapping kits triggers confusion's worst damage. Mesmer is not as delicate as you seem to think it is (I mean... really? You say it's not a tank and then [there's this](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronotank "there's this").). Sure, it's delicate if you spec'd berserker gear, but every class is delicate with berserker stats. > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: >The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!! Using top tier individuals is generally not a good assessment of the strength of a class. Why? Skill can vary heavily, even among top tier players. The other thing is that you're only assessing skill ceiling, and the problem most people have is with the skill floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Lalainnia.3598" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Kasdwer.3721" said: > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > > > > > The difference is that thief is very vulnerable to stuns, dp thief has only 1 stunbreaker with 50 seconds cds, sdcore has an additonal one with 35 seconds cd > > > while mesmer has a stunbreaker on his dodge, a longer dodge duration AND can still stomp/attack while dodging > > > mirage is the unnerfed daredevil version of early HoT on steroids > > > > Mesmer is also very vulnerable to stun and doesn't have the daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense. A thief can stomp from stealth which has significantly longer duration and more frequent use than even a PU Mesmer. > > Huh what is daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense, are you talking about headshot from oh pistol?????? Also condi Mirages are no where near as vulnerable to stuns as DDs between distort, signet of midnight, blink, and even just dodging while cc'ed untraited or traited. As for the stealth bit thieves can still be cc'ed or take damage while stealthed mostly from aoes while mirage cloak is a personal distort and guaranteed stomp unless the downed target moves I play a core thief and have avoided dd, relying on my familiar d/p build. I suspect what I'm seeing is [distracting daggers.] Whatever the case, I've seen DD's able to completely shut down my casting at critical moments. OH pistol and stealing can also be used. A thief has very comparable mobility to Mesmer and probably better overall defense. Mesmer distorts on dodge? This is a spec that's designed for close combat against the likes of Scourges. That's simply survival. Mesmer has used distortion to stomp for the 5+ years that I have been playing GW2. I don't see why it's an issue now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SloRules.3560 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > > > > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > > > > > > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. > > > > > > I'm referring to teamfights. > > > > > > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > > > > > > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > > > > > > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** > > > > > > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: > > > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > I've had numerous cases where a mesmer laid on 21+ stacks of confusion on me from stealth in less than a second, plus cover condis (mainly weakness, vuln, and cripple). To pour salt on the wound, attempting to cleanse the confusion would come close to killing me, because swapping kits triggers confusion's worst damage. > > Mesmer is not as delicate as you seem to think it is (I mean... really? You say it's not a tank and then [there's this](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronotank "there's this").). Sure, it's delicate if you spec'd berserker gear, but every class is delicate with berserker stats. > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > >The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!! > > Using top tier individuals is generally not a good assessment of the strength of a class. Why? Skill can vary heavily, even among top tier players. The other thing is that you're only assessing skill ceiling, and the problem most people have is with the skill floor. > > Balancing by skill floor should never happen, it's just going to kill the playerbase in the long run. You need top players, while bottom will continue to play and rotate aroudn and whatnot, but you need some that are consistently playing and can make some serious assesments of meta, builds, compostitions,... and you know, evolving the gameplay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ithilwen.1529 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > > > > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > > > > > > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. > > > > > > I'm referring to teamfights. > > > > > > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > > > > > > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > > > > > > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** > > > > > > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: > > > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > I've had numerous cases where a mesmer laid on 21+ stacks of confusion on me from stealth in less than a second, plus cover condis (mainly weakness, vuln, and cripple). To pour salt on the wound, attempting to cleanse the confusion would come close to killing me, because swapping kits triggers confusion's worst damage. > > Mesmer is not as delicate as you seem to think it is (I mean... really? You say it's not a tank and then [there's this](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronotank "there's this").). Sure, it's delicate if you spec'd berserker gear, but every class is delicate with berserker stats. > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > >The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!! > > Using top tier individuals is generally not a good assessment of the strength of a class. Why? Skill can vary heavily, even among top tier players. The other thing is that you're only assessing skill ceiling, and the problem most people have is with the skill floor. > > And that attack blew most of that Mirage's cooldowns, leaving them vulnerable for significantly longer than the whole jump,cc, super laser blast rotation,( which does similar damage.). Most likely, it wasn't stealth but a shadowstep, similar to thief. You could have countered it or blocked or cc'd. Your reference is to a Chrono tank, expressly designed to be a tank.. That's not a mirage and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion. As to "top tier" players.. well, I'm much more interested in everyday gaming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasdwer.3721 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > Mesmer is also very vulnerable to stun and doesn't have the daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense. A thief can stomp from stealth which has significantly longer duration and more frequent use than even a PU Mesmer. atleast inform about the class before you write anything, daredevil has no interrupt on autoattack, they have headshot and steal, and no, no thief ever uses distracting daggers atm also how is stealth better for stomping than complete invulerability? you can still get cced, attacked etc in stealth. i actually hope now that they absolutely destroy mesmer in this balance patch so people like you finally learn how how his and other classes work before they go to the pvp and/or whine about it on the forum i mean its actually sad how tiny your knowledge is, and you play for 5+ years straight? thats pathetic honestly (and pls dont give me the "im a casual" answer, because if you were, you wouldnt be in the forum in the first place talking about pvp balance) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vagrant.7206 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Vagrant.7206" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kondor.2904" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And even then, the holo is still extremely vulnerable to pressure if the enemy team knows to focus them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In all fairness, anything is extremely vulnerable when an enemy team focuses on 1 person, regardless of class > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Just wanted to throw that out there > > > > > > > > > > > > Aye, but one person focusing on a holo absurdly reduces their damage potential. > > > > > > > > > > Also in all fairness, anyone with any AoE would also suffer the same thing. Aside from that, one person focusing on a holo would just be a typical 1v1, which Holo's are pretty good at so I feel like im missing your point here so I apologize. > > > > > > > > I'm referring to teamfights. > > > > > > > > The problem, as far as I can tell, that most people have with holo is its burst potential on groups. I can come in like a wrecking ball if I show up at the right moment unimpeded. In other words -- people are complaining about holo's overall damage potential (throwing out numbers like 800k). That's what happens in teamfights when the enemies get clustered. Holo DPS goes through the roof in those situations. However, if one person is focusing on the holo actively, much of that damage can be reduced. > > > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > @"shagwell.1349" said: > > > > > > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > > > > > > Mirage has won a few fights and so is thought to be OP. Anytime a Mesmer wins, they are assumed to be OP. Yes, it does require more attention and skill to fight a Mesmer than some other classes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sadly, the "exciting changes" may well turn out to be crippling nerfs. > > > > > > > > > > > > Name one season were mesmer wasn't in the Top3 of classes in GW2? It's always been much too strong. Chrono was absolutely ridiculous in the first three HoT seasons, Mirage is way better than Chrono ever was. > > > > > > > > > > Mesmer is played by a dedicated cadre. I suffered through the years of being "trash tier" after the glamour nerf simply because I like the style. Yes, Mesmers have a tendency to be good at the class. > > > > > > > > > > To play against Mesmer, you need to be aware of the situation and perceive something more than needed against another class. That's not OP. **The call for nerfs feels like a call to "dumb down" Mesmer so that it's just another sword swinging class.** > > > > > > > > No, I just want them to not be invulnerable/invisible/evading for more than 1/4 of the fight while they lay 20+ stacks of condi on thick. :smile: > > > > > > I were weren't we'd die rather quickly. Mesmer is a delicate damage dealer, not a tank. We depend on active defense to survive. As to 20 plus stacks of condi.. that requires a series of blockable/dodgeable attacks to land. If, you're getting 20+ stacks of anything, then you didn't defend yourself adequately. > > > > > > I'd also point out that thief is perhaps even better at evade/interrupt/invis. I don't see screams of "nerf thief." > > > > I've had numerous cases where a mesmer laid on 21+ stacks of confusion on me from stealth in less than a second, plus cover condis (mainly weakness, vuln, and cripple). To pour salt on the wound, attempting to cleanse the confusion would come close to killing me, because swapping kits triggers confusion's worst damage. > > > > Mesmer is not as delicate as you seem to think it is (I mean... really? You say it's not a tank and then [there's this](https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Chronomancer_-_Chronotank "there's this").). Sure, it's delicate if you spec'd berserker gear, but every class is delicate with berserker stats. > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said: > > >The counter play to a mesmer is a good player and mesmer is bad if you are not a very good player even misha was destroyed by zan and last day sindrener(best thief in gw2) was playing ranked and he was agains misha(best mesmer in gw2) he did beat him with a thief full health, and i don't need to bring back the zan(best engineer in gw2) killing misha in a 1v1 more than 6 or 7 times cos i all ready said it so who's that mesmer you talking about that have no counterplay !!! > > > > Using top tier individuals is generally not a good assessment of the strength of a class. Why? Skill can vary heavily, even among top tier players. The other thing is that you're only assessing skill ceiling, and the problem most people have is with the skill floor. > > > > > > And that attack blew most of that Mirage's cooldowns, leaving them vulnerable for significantly longer than the whole jump,cc, super laser blast rotation,( which does similar damage.). Most likely, it wasn't stealth but a shadowstep, similar to thief. You could have countered it or blocked or cc'd. Yes, and the same complaint is made about the power shatter mesmer. It has a lengthy cooldown. The difference from power shatter mesmer is that mirage can keep laying on the confusion thick after it did its initial burst. It also has way more evades and stealth potential than the power shatter. > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > Your reference is to a Chrono tank, expressly designed to be a tank.. That's not a mirage and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion. You said mesmer is a "delicate" class. I provided an example of how it is not. That's not irrelevant. 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Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Kasdwer.3721" said: > > @"Ithilwen.1529" said: > > Mesmer is also very vulnerable to stun and doesn't have the daredevil constant interrupt on auto attack defense. A thief can stomp from stealth which has significantly longer duration and more frequent use than even a PU Mesmer. > atleast inform about the class before you write anything, daredevil has no interrupt on autoattack, they have headshot and steal, and no, no thief ever uses distracting daggers atm > > also how is stealth better for stomping than complete invulerability? you can still get cced, attacked etc in stealth. > > i actually hope now that they absolutely destroy mesmer in this balance patch so people like you finally learn how how his and other classes work before they go to the pvp and/or whine about it on the forum > > i mean its actually sad how tiny your knowledge is, and you play for 5+ years straight? thats pathetic honestly (and pls dont give me the "im a casual" answer, because if you were, you wouldnt be in the forum in the first place talking about pvp balance) > Just wanted to point out that many "casual" pvp'ers come to the forums to talk about balance. Your concept is elitist to say the least. Thats all :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morwath.9817 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 [Quaggan feelings about tis thread.](https://media.giphy.com/media/xUOwGjAEHUqOrcoKK4/giphy.gif "Quaggan feelings about tis thread.") Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasdwer.3721 Posted February 1, 2018 Share Posted February 1, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > Just wanted to point out that many "casual" pvp'ers come to the forums to talk about balance. Your concept is elitist to say the least. Thats all :) i think we have a different definition of "casual", cuz i dont mean people who play only 2-3hours a week, but i mean people who dont take it serious enough to improve themself and just wanna do the daily completion and dont care about winning or losing because this kind of people wouldnt care much about some 5% buffs or nerfs, because lets be serious here, they wont make mirage complete bad after the patch ( i mean look at spellbreaker, it got nerfed but its still good and viable) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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