Khailyn.6248 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 I'm not claiming to be the best at deadeye, or even all that good. But in my experience I have the most issues with warriors (even more so spellbreakers). They have several counters to death's judgement and are unlikely to be 2 shotted due to their defenses, armor and higher hp. DJ has enough tells that it gives them enough time to pop full counter (adrenaline allowed), block (can reflect if traited), endure pain. I could also see guardians being a problem if they can maintain aegis and timed well. Holosmiths are another I have issue with but I attribute that a bit more to just not knowing the profession well enough to figure it out. Any profession thats highly mobile could prolly just run away from the DE as well if they are built for stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Musty.3148" said: > > @"Kovu.7560" said: > > > @"Musty.3148" said: > > > You should know what classes are your antithesis. You should know which you can kill quickly. And you should further know which will be a pretty even fight. Then pick your battles and play well, escape from ones you can't beat, attack the ones you can own, and decide on the others. It's not friggin' hard. > > > > > > And crying about a class like DE as a Scourge is just freaking ridiculous... I'm embarrassed for you as a player. > > > > > > > I mean, a Scourge can't "pick" to, or not to fight a thief spec if the thief has decided to fight the scourge. > > Tack DE range in there and, as I said, pretty much the biggest hard-counter in the game. The necro can't kill the thief, nor can they run away from it. > > > > Lack of mobility is the reason I never solo roam on a necro. Which is a real shame. > > > > ~ Kovu > > A scourge in a tanky solo setup (which they ALL are) can get to a keep/los/get to friends. Happens daily. I agree in general, but like I said. "play well". > Yeah okay, if they're not running grievers/vipers, are next to a tower/keep and only have one thief on them, they _might_ survive. I certainly won't deny that. ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > I could also see guardians being a problem if they can maintain aegis and timed well. allways remove aegis before marking, then when shooting press f2 shortly before the bullet hits to remove aegis. actually its pretty good if they try to counter the shot with aegis for the deadeye. if you see any one try to avoid DJ with blocks/reflects all the time, switch in basi venom. as for warriors: while the do have several ways of avoiding a DJ , they mostly need to get to melee to deal damage and their gapclosers are charge skills and not teleports so you can easily dodge them as well and risk fighting them visibly even if build around stealth. while they are on the offense they are easiest to shoot - mostly if a warrior survives a shot it is because of a rune of durability proc, not because of HP. biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shining One.1635 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot. I main ranger. Most of the times I get the upper hand on DE, he goes into stealth and runs off. It's hardly as effective a counter as DE is to Scourge. Are there any specific ranger builds that "guarantee" a kill on DE to the same level that DE "guarantees" a kill on Scourge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Shining One.1635" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > biggest issue for a deadeye is probably a well played ranger, but most rangers i encounter cant handle the f2 immob during the shot. > I main ranger. Most of the times I get the upper hand on DE, he goes into stealth and runs off. It's hardly as effective a counter as DE is to Scourge. Are there any specific ranger builds that "guarantee" a kill on DE to the same level that DE "guarantees" a kill on Scourge? > > no there is noone that can kill a DE solo if the DE doesnt want to fight. but noone not even a scourge dies to a stealth camping deadeye. the thing with scourges is tho, they are soo weak against range a stealthy deadeye can just faceroll his keyboard on range without the need for stealth and the scourge will die. but if he shoots just like once every 10-20 seconds, anyone can dodge that. that is the point many people seem to miss, while the deadeye is in stealth he wont kill you. if he is often and alot in stealth means he mostly deals 0 dmg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khailyn.6248 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. > > There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed > > Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now. for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CC or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements. the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khailyn.6248 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > > > > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > > > > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > > > > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. > > > > There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed > > > > Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. > > not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now. > > for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements. > the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong. All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > > > > > > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > > > > > > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > > > > > > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. > > > > > > There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed > > > > > > Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. > > > > not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now. > > > > for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements. > > the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong. > > All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas. i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khailyn.6248 Posted April 7, 2018 Share Posted April 7, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > > > > > > > > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > > > > > > > > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. > > > > > > > > There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed > > > > > > > > Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. > > > > > > not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now. > > > > > > for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements. > > > the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong. > > > > All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas. > > i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased. Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 There's also an issue where a number of the revealed skills are targeted, not radius AoE. Those don't work on targets that are _already_ stealthed, defeating the reactive playstyle those counters are supposed to represent. _"Oh, they've stealthed? Time to pop this utility skill that's on the bar for this reason. Oh, you mean I need to have them targeted? Well fuck."_ ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 nope some skills are to get some one out of stealth to initiate a fight and some are to prevent restealthing to finish a stealther off. all working as they should. the only thing about reveal that might not be intended is that reveal allways overwrites existing reveal no matter the duration, if you cast sic em on me after an anti stealth trap you might safe me. i killed a ranger once on my daredevil inside his revealing sand on RBL as he replaced the debuff with his short reveal. i didnt try to remove an anti stealth trap with DJ cast+ , but that came to my mind while typing now and i will for sure test it as soon as i get the option. edit: found one to test it without risking my neck , so yeah it works to reduce reveal duration from an anti stealth trap with self inflicting reveal by DJ. see for your selves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fkvD9GcQTs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > > > @"MuscleBobBuffPants.1406" said: > > > > > > > @"Curunen.8729" said: > > > > > > > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > Yeah I agree, I would really like a massive overhaul to stealth in the game at some point. I feel like it would make the game funner for both stealthers and people fighting them. Right now, it feels too one sided. > > > > > > > > > > > > Team Fortress 2 , the Spy, I always felt did a really good job with stealth balance, the Spy was uber fragile, but could stealth, but not for too long either. Very well balanced. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think Guild Wars 2 needs more counter play to stealth , coupled with alot of mobility just doesnt feel fun. > > > > > > > > > > There is counter play in game to stealth via Revealed. > > > > > > > > > > https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Revealed > > > > > > > > > > Which would be fine if AN didnt give Deadeyes Shadowmeld to remove it. so... who knows. AN could expand on that mechanic and apply it to more skills as an easier solution. > > > > > > > > not really as revealed is a pretty poor design same as stealth or exhaustion debuff. its just a bandaid fix. if revealed was thrown aroun all the time, no one would be stealthed so the mechanic would be obsolete as all the traits and skills related to it. and the stealth as such wouldnt be any better than it is now. > > > > > > > > for instance if you could see a silouette of the stealthed target but as tradeoff you wouldnt take any damage in stealth( still able to get CCt or revealed), then you wouldnt need to spamm your skills to maybe hit the stealther , you could react to stealth attack and stealth would actually protect the stealthed one. there is no solo permastealth in the game without hits , mostly ther is some smokefield + leap/blast in it so you could counterplay here or apply your reveal skills more precise. this would be a way both sides stealthers and people fighting them do get improvements. > > > > the problem is that stealth is a very weak defensive mechanic , it is strong to avoid a fight but as actual defense mobility , evades , blocks etc are much better. as it is good in avoiding a fight it is mainly annoying but not really strong. > > > > > > All very true. I only mentioned Reveal because at current its the only option we have. When I choose to do WvW I use stealth a lot just to avoid combat or in particular the zergs while going to other objectives. I'm just not sure what else we could suggest to replace stealth. Make the character more semi visible (like predator when looking directly at him) but make attacks go through while stealthed as if they were a ghost? Mirage with mirage cloak kind of does this already. Being a stealth player and also having fought those that use stealth I'm not on either side. Just throwing out ideas. > > > > i play alot with stealth in wvw as i can avoid larger groups with it and trade for it 1 vs 1 potential, some fights would be alot easier and faster with a different build but overall i save more time avoiding unwinnable fights (downstate carry). i am not sure i would anylonger solo roam if i wouldnt have the option to avoid larger groups without stealth, as the only other option is mobility and well chasing can take quite a while and i dont like it when i am the one being chased. > > Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. One of the reasons desert borderlands are so much better for solo or small groups is they wind and twist so 5s stealth is usually enough to ditch a hungry zerg. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. > > The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes. > They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DemonSeed.3528 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 I am on the other side of the spectrum with regards to this I suppose - I actually enjoy trying to fight stealthed opponents and trying to outplay them. I like trying to figure out their plays, how soon after they stealth that they attack, do they attack aggressively or choose their moments, are they just attacking wildly or are they noticing my cooldowns and boons. I like to listen to the signs and see the little telltales of their position, which direction their character is facing or leaping as they stealth, how far the area I can hit them with an aoe just after they stealthed, how fast they will be able to manuever with whatever skills they have left in stealth. It's like lotto and I want to win it by logical guestimation. Just by the initial touch-n-go in the encounter gives me enough information on how to react. I don't always win but this always prepares me more for the next encounter, and they become less effective against me. Ever get a thief message you saying you are hacking by always figuring their position (not counting the ones with their mini's out hehehe)? They can be annoying, sure, but they can be avoided and beaten too. They will really hate you if even after everything they got bested. For those that also play thieves, many things can also be learned from foe that you may have not tried before. There are problems in this game, but this doesn't rank as high on the list overall (for me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. > > > > The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. > if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes. > > They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. > if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth. > > > > Yes the thief isn’t attacking but you can’t either, if they keep attacking on their terms and blind you on attack out of stealth or from behind you can’t counter burst them very well at all then a few seconds later they’re back in stealth. As I say most thieves don’t actually appreciate how it shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when skills need a target. It’s the same with any class that keeps popping in and out of stealth not just thieves either, the same was true of PU mesmers when the torch trait allowed insane stealth uptime, druids going into stealth every 5s, I’d say scrapper but they’re as rare as balance patches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euryon.9248 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. > > > > > > The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. > > if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes. > > > They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. > > if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth. > > > > > > > > > > Yes the thief isn’t attacking but you can’t either, if they keep attacking on their terms and blind you on attack out of stealth or from behind you can’t counter burst them very well at all then a few seconds later they’re back in stealth. As I say most thieves don’t actually appreciate how it shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when skills need a target. It’s the same with any class that keeps popping in and out of stealth not just thieves either, the same was true of PU mesmers when the torch trait allowed insane stealth uptime, druids going into stealth every 5s, I’d say scrapper but they’re as rare as balance patches. Agree completely. My big issue with stealth in this game is that it puts the encounter almost entirely in the hands of the player with the stealth. They choose whom and when to fight, how long to continue if they don't immediately win, whether to retreat permanently or just to restore cds and attack again, whether to harrass endlessly until their opponent makes one mistake, etc. It's all about the skills of the player with stealth and precious little about the skills of the other player. The only way to kill a half-decent stealth thief is if the *thief* makes a major mistake. A mediocre thief who doesn't totally screw up will never die to a much more skilled necro, warrior, rev, etc, although they may not succeed in killing the other player, either. But if they waste enough of the other player's time, they still win. A thief whose goal is just to piss off people and make them ragequit or leave because it's simply not fun is a bane to the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Euryon.9248" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Khailyn.6248" said: > > > > > Yea I'm pretty much the same way. Players that dont play thief really underestimate how many skills and how much initiative goes into staying stealthed and how much it hinders other aspects of the profession. > > > > > > > > The same is usually true the other way with primarily thief players not realising how unfun stealth and stealth camping is. > > > if they would just say it is unfun, please change it - ok. but they often confuse unfun with too strong and therefor demand nerfs instead of changes. > > > > They also generally don’t realise how much stealth shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when half your weapon skills can require a target to work. > > > if your opponent is in stealth he is currently not attacking what exactly do you plan to 'fight back', when my opponent uses an evade i also cant fight back during it not with targeted and also not with an aoe skill - well with some cage CC and shockaura but that is even less spread than reveals.. and some classes can even continue to deal direct damage while evading, cant do that with stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes the thief isn’t attacking but you can’t either, if they keep attacking on their terms and blind you on attack out of stealth or from behind you can’t counter burst them very well at all then a few seconds later they’re back in stealth. As I say most thieves don’t actually appreciate how it shuts down a players ability to fight back especially when skills need a target. It’s the same with any class that keeps popping in and out of stealth not just thieves either, the same was true of PU mesmers when the torch trait allowed insane stealth uptime, druids going into stealth every 5s, I’d say scrapper but they’re as rare as balance patches. > > Agree completely. My big issue with stealth in this game is that it puts the encounter almost entirely in the hands of the player with the stealth. They choose whom and when to fight, how long to continue if they don't immediately win, whether to retreat permanently or just to restore cds and attack again, whether to harrass endlessly until their opponent makes one mistake, etc. It's all about the skills of the player with stealth and precious little about the skills of the other player. The only way to kill a half-decent stealth thief is if the *thief* makes a major mistake. A mediocre thief who doesn't totally screw up will never die to a much more skilled necro, warrior, rev, etc, although they may not succeed in killing the other player, either. But if they waste enough of the other player's time, they still win. A thief whose goal is just to kitten off people and make them ragequit or leave because it's simply not fun is a bane to the game. yup ' **they might not actually succeed in killing** '. it is unfun to fight against stealth mainly because you cannot force an end to the fight apart from running away, but stealth is still not strong in a fight. i keep hearing, people not enjoying to stack stealth would be the reason not to play it - but if it was actually stronger in a fight, that wouldnt matter. i am fine with request towards changing how stealth works, but not nerfing it as such as i dont think it is too strong, annoying yes - strong nope. i stopped solo roaming with non stealth classes not because of stealthed opponents but because of larger groups that would pose an unwinnable fight for me ( downstate too strong in X vs 1) still think they need to chase me all over the map. groups and a stealther both i cannot force to die with lets say my FA ele , but when the stealther attacks he risks his dead, the group doesnt. i dont waste my time trying to force a fight on a stealther without reason, if he is not in or around an objective i dont need to care and if he is i can use that to bait him out and kill. you wont have fun if you try to force kill a stealther without reason. but any reason can be used as bait. you want that camp? go ahead wont take it while in stealth. you want to defend the camp? then you got to come out quick or i will flip it. etc. here an unfun example of last night: i (blue) opened a red paper tower (my spawntower on DBL), while at lord 2 shatterstorm bug abusers from green came by and died. while stomping the 2nd a group of 5 red came in reaper, scourge, firebrand, druid, mesmer. so i retreated from the lord with stealth a bit waiting for them to split up. when they did i killed first the mesmer, then the druid. they rezzed each other again then they stacked with 5 people waiting for me to attack - i did ( because their mesmer was condi so no high counterburst) but they kept ressurecting faster then i could stomp. so i went to the other side of the tower /sit and waited till they left, sometimes they came by so i again stealthed and switched the side of the tower. after like half an hour they jumped out and i flipped the tower. they probably hated me as much for wasting their time as i hated them. they didnt want to risk anything, so i didnt aswell. it is not just the stealther that decides for an unfun fight, many dont want to risk a thing, people stacking with 5 or more on one spot expecting me to attack happens daily. when i die its mostly against a single opponent tho not a group, because i risked too much to get a kill - cause camping stealth wont kill a good opponent ( apart from backstab onehits in some cases) and while visible i am dead in 1-3 hits. 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Fat Disgrace.4275 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > @"intox.6347" said: > > > > ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem. > > > > And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def... > > > > > > this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage. > > > In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell. > > > They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst. > > > This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits. > > > > Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game. > > > > .#thosepeskyfacts > You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever. > > .#thetruefacts not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Fat Disgrace.4275" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > > > @"EremiteAngel.9765" said: > > > > > @"intox.6347" said: > > > > > ranged classes are necro nemesis.... druid / soulbeast even core ranger can kitten necro without problem. > > > > > And deadeye is more than that... necro have low mobility even if you try wurm / sand swell... also necro almost doesnt have usable projectile def... > > > > > > > > this is true however deadeyes can remain perma invis while roaming until they choose to engage. > > > > In which case, they would be dealing insane amount of damage out of invis with no tell. > > > > They usually cast mark which is a daze/stun and then burst. > > > > This require insane reflexes from the player to break stun and negate their damage or for the player to trait auto-trigger damage immune traits. > > > > > > Sorry but there isn’t any insane amount of damage from Stealth with a Deadeye without tells, The facts prove that their “Insane”amounts of Damage come with some of the most Obvious tells in game. > > > > > > .#thosepeskyfacts > > You can abuse the action camera to fire deaths judgement without any tell whatsoever. > > > > .#thetruefacts > > not true. still hear and see the shot, and the voice over when said deadeye uses action cam. that is correct. action cam only hides the laser but that is enough for many people not to connet the other tells to the bullet :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubi.4136 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 The lag is so bad some days, that the laser and sound do NOT always happen (and the action cam laser thing needs fixing). I've downed tons of people in 1 shot where there was nothing after marking them. The power creep is real (not just thief obviously) and the reason you don't see a ton of deadeyes is because it's just boring. Near perma stealth is easy, and you do not have to sacrifice mobility to get that damage. Just hang out near other players fighting (1 will suffice). Mark, stay stealthed and the second you see them dodge a second time down them. There is nothing hard about playing deadeye. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Ubi.4136" said: > Just hang out near other players fighting (1 will suffice). Mark, stay stealthed and the second you see them dodge a second time down them. There is nothing hard about playing deadeye. to +1 someone deadeye altho can be played very safe is super inefficient compared to most other builds as one dodge will make alot of seconds in stealth wasted in wich another class could have killed him already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluffdragon.1523 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"Curunen.8729" said: > It's not Deadeye tbh, it's stealth in general. Without the perma stealth (and for once this truly fits the definition of permanent) they're pretty weak. > > Hopefully they can do a big stealth overhaul at some stage in the future, affecting all the classes that use stealth. Hey all. Deadeye and thief main here. I don't do competitive play but felt like popping in to see what the complaints were about. Glad to see there's a legitimate concern here! Anyhow, I haven't actually run stealth since Daredevil got released, mostly because having to spam skills to maintain it felt like a real waste when PvE mobs can be easily distracted by standing behind them (yay for Line of Sight). I will say, however, that I've seen a number of cases of long duration stealth being abused on Youtube in the past, so I agree that something needs to be done to manage this. But ... let's not forget how prolific stealth is. Mesmers, Engineers, Thief, and Ranger all have it to some degree, with the first three professions having the ability to enter it for quite some time. I think I might have a nice workaround based on old GW1 mechanics, however. What would people say to stealth no longer stacking from multiple activations (not *pulses*) of the same source? For example, this would mitigate the old Dagger/Pistol combo for stacking stealth by only *refreshing* the current maximum. Likewise, only the _longest_ duration would be applied, replacing any shorter duration. This way, if you use a 3s stealth skill followed by a 5s stealth skill, you receive *only* 5s of stealth instead of about 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted April 8, 2018 Share Posted April 8, 2018 > @"fluffdragon.1523" said: > I think I might have a nice workaround based on old GW1 mechanics, however. What would people say to stealth no longer stacking from multiple activations (not *pulses*) of the same source? For example, this would mitigate the old Dagger/Pistol combo for stacking stealth by only *refreshing* the current maximum. Likewise, only the _longest_ duration would be applied, replacing any shorter duration. > > This way, if you use a 3s stealth skill followed by a 5s stealth skill, you receive *only* 5s of stealth instead of about 8. no you recieve nearly 8 if you use the 5s skill towards the end of the 3s. the only thing it will lower is stealth with combos while they are actually a vulnerable spot in a steath camping rotation as they mostly include hits wich can lead to a reveal. then i might not be an issue as solo stealth deadeye as i hardly will keep stealth, but i can group up with a 2nd deadeye and continue now with less counterplay and 2 people able to deal damage - how is that going to improve your experience? or do combos still stack because same source? then nothing changes at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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