Request from a Thief

[ScottBroChill.3254]

I flame thieves who only decap far while the team is getting manhandled 4v5 on every other point and the thief is complainging we aren't winning teamfights and telling everyone they suck. Otherwise, I don't flame people who don't start it.

[Wolfric.9380]

I guess it´s time to main thief. Of course deadeye ...

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> I flame thieves who only decap far while the team is getting manhandled 4v5 on every other point and the thief is complainging we aren't winning teamfights and telling everyone they suck. Otherwise, I don't flame people who don't start it.

 

Why? Decapping or capping far is at least as valuable as winning a team fight if people know how to disengage, and a thief in mid is not contributing much in a 5v5 most of the time, that's not what thief is good at. Decapping far is the correct move. Or at the very least, it's not strictly better to help mid in all situations.

[saerni.2584]

I’ve been told before to hold home and decap far at the same time. That said...

 

I think if the thief can decap safely it is fine. But it’s not worth a decap if the team dies at mid.

 

Winning at mid also will let a tanky profession rotate home to prevent a decap (and be +1ed). (See above telling a thief to hold home against a decap).

 

As a thief, the flow of the game relies on communication with the team. Where do you need me? I can decap, spike a target at mid or rotate into a plus one. Sometimes I can stop a decap but it is usually short term. A simple “no +1 home” goes a long way. If I don’t need to rotate home I can be effective elsewhere.

 

That doesn’t happen too often so a good thief learns to read the map. Is my team going to hold mid without me? Can I afford to decap? What is the mechanic doing or about to do? Should I defend a point against the enemy thief?

[Turk.5460]

Team loses a favorable 4v3 in Mid while the Thief is at Far with 2 enemies running to defend Far. Thief gets blamed for the loss at Mid. Thief sighs and turns off team chat and continues to do his job.

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

>

> Why? Decapping or capping far is at least as valuable as winning a team fight if people know how to disengage, and a thief in mid is not contributing much in a 5v5 most of the time, that's not what thief is good at. Decapping far is the correct move. Or at the very least, it's not strictly better to help mid in all situations.

 

Decapping far is valuable, but I'm talking about thieves who don't go and do other stuff once theyve decapped far, or ones who can't contribute outside of that. this essentially creates a 4v5 on the other two points in which the other team has the advantage of getting both of those. Also decapping ins't always enough if there are bunkers on the opposing team. This sort of invalidates a mobility focused thief. That's generally why thief can sometimes be a liability, where as a mesmer has very good mobility while still being able to team fight and deal a bunch of damage and survive. That's why as a thief you cant have builds or playstyles that rely on just decapping. It should def be taken advantage of when the enemy allows it but it's easy to shut down and invalidate the thief that can only do that. And decapping far wasn't implying what else the thief does, it doesn't include hopping between home and far and ganking in +1, i just soley meant decapping far and just camping the point. I've had teammates do that and they were also verbally toxic.

 

 

[Kageseigi.2150]

> @"saerni.2584" said:

> As a thief, the flow of the game relies on communication with the team. Where do you need me? I can decap, spike a target at mid or rotate into a plus one. Sometimes I can stop a decap but it is usually short term. A simple “no +1 home” goes a long way. If I don’t need to rotate home I can be effective elsewhere.

>

> That doesn’t happen too often so a good thief learns to read the map. Is my team going to hold mid without me? Can I afford to decap? What is the mechanic doing or about to do? Should I defend a point against the enemy thief?

 

Indeed. I just solo queue. I start every match with a greeting and a brief description along the lines of...

 

"I'll grab Home and work to keep Far decapped. Please focus Home and Mid :-)"

 

The other day on Legacy, within the first couple of minutes, my team could not secure either Home or Mid, so I'm rushing back to take Home when it was empty, but I see a teammate going to Far alone from spawn. I'm typing into chat "I'll get Far." Completely ignored. A minute or so later, the match was getting out of hand, and there was still no communication from my team. I wrote, "Are we playing sides?" Not a single response.

 

Then when the game was halfway over, I was saying... "We need a plan so I know where to go"

 

Of course, I was the only one who even wrote anything in chat that match. I'm usually too busy running around to say anything... but that was rather frustrating.

 

I'm trying to get better at map awareness. Unfortunately, everything is a clutter (especially on Mid) whenever there are Mesmers involved. I can't see how many combatants are there. So my ability to recognize fight numbers/balances isn't as good as it needs to be.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> >

> > Why? Decapping or capping far is at least as valuable as winning a team fight if people know how to disengage, and a thief in mid is not contributing much in a 5v5 most of the time, that's not what thief is good at. Decapping far is the correct move. Or at the very least, it's not strictly better to help mid in all situations.

>

> Decapping far is valuable, but I'm talking about thieves who don't go and do other stuff once theyve decapped far, or ones who can't contribute outside of that. this essentially creates a 4v5 on the other two points in which the other team has the advantage of getting both of those. Also decapping ins't always enough if there are bunkers on the opposing team. This sort of invalidates a mobility focused thief. That's generally why thief can sometimes be a liability, where as a mesmer has very good mobility while still being able to team fight and deal a bunch of damage and survive. That's why as a thief you cant have builds or playstyles that rely on just decapping. It should def be taken advantage of when the enemy allows it but it's easy to shut down and invalidate the thief that can only do that. And decapping far wasn't implying what else the thief does, it doesn't include hopping between home and far and ganking in +1, i just soley meant decapping far and just camping the point. I've had teammates do that and they were also verbally toxic.

>

>

 

If there's a bunker at far then the thief should come mid yes, but regardless at that point you aren't 4v5 are you? And yes then the thief should be helping the fight, and can actually do so without being a liability. But not being there just means you're 4v4 instead of 5v4, ultimately still a winnable scenario and your own fault if you lose much of the time (though not always).

 

Looks to me like a classic case of blaming the thief when you're responsible for your own loss tbh

[ScottBroChill.3254]

> @"Legatus.3608" said:

>

> If there's a bunker at far then the thief should come mid yes, but regardless at that point you aren't 4v5 are you? And yes then the thief should be helping the fight, and can actually do so without being a liability. But not being there just means you're 4v4 instead of 5v4, ultimately still a winnable scenario and your own fault if you lose much of the time (though not always).

>

> Looks to me like a classic case of blaming the thief when you're responsible for your own loss tbh

 

Nah that's not whats being said. Generally, i'm talking about bad thieves (or generally any class) that goes around calling shots when they are ignorant of the fact that they may be very mediocre. In my case, the thief told our team to leave far to him all game and we would win. So... we did that in a very literally sense because he would complain if we even veered in far's direction. Anyone, this thief was basically trying to bunker the point. It wasn't decapping far at this point, it was only playing the far point and that is it. Well the other team just decided "well lets not bother with far because the amount of time it takes to take it back is not worth it compared to how long it takes for the thief to return," so they ignored the point and played 5 people on mid and our home, and they had both a druid and firebrand bunker on both point respectively. When the rest of us (4) were trying to secure one of the other two, we had to deal with 5 total enemies. That's right, i said 5. against our 4, because the thief refused to add a helping hand. He decided to spend his alone time on far to yell at people for not getting the other points when in reality he was uncontested the whole game.

 

We were down like 200-100 or something by this point, i told him to start contributing more than camping a point that he can't hold on his own if contested. So he keep running onto points by himself against two opposing players. While this is going on, the other team caps far and so our guard goes to take it back since he is nearby. At this point, our thief pops off with anger saying "Don't go FAR you idiot, I told you to leave that to me!" while hes been dancing on home for the past 5 minutes trying to fight outnumbered fights by himself, never grouping up.

 

Now you might say, Scott, aren't you contradicting yourself by wanting this person to do more than cap far but also wanting him not to be at home getting his ass kicked by a mesmer and another dude? No, I have no problem with capping far. But once that is done you need to still be a threatening presence or good players will just sit on points and kill you when you return or just take the point from you. But why am I mad for him leaving far and trying to help at home? well, because he was knowingly walking into 1v2's by himself while teammates were dead and complaining about us not helping him. He wasn't +1'ing a fight, he was starting outnumbered fights complaining that we weren't running into certain death. Instead he should work rotations around in ways that help drag enemies off of their points, but should also join in fights that even like a 1v1 or 2v2. But he never did that. And he was unable to kill or hold a point. He had the mobility to cap far on his own when it was uncontested but he was unable to handle being contested at all and for that reason a liability.

 

I ended up playing with a member from the opposing team after the match and he also acknowledged his remorse for me having to play with him. He was doing a lot of map chat complaining, hoping that people would recognize that him, the thief, was not the reason for the loss. A lot of bad players do this, they overly complain and try to even convince the opposing team by using map chat, that they were playing amazingly and want recognition for it, while the rest of the team was "trash". With this said, I'm not saying I'm god at pvp nor extremely good. I'm gold 3 ffs, so I'm relatively average but I also understand that its a team game. We are ranked in the same ranking for a reason most of the time. If the team is losing, their is always something more "I' can do, and I should also try to motivate or give some direction to teammates who may be fumbling around. Sometimes you get a match where the majority of players on your team are hardcountered by something. Sometimes another player on the opposing team is just extremely good. But you can't blame others for yourself not being a good team player or leader.

[Legatus.3608]

> @"ScottBroChill.3254" said:

> > @"Legatus.3608" said:

> >

> > If there's a bunker at far then the thief should come mid yes, but regardless at that point you aren't 4v5 are you? And yes then the thief should be helping the fight, and can actually do so without being a liability. But not being there just means you're 4v4 instead of 5v4, ultimately still a winnable scenario and your own fault if you lose much of the time (though not always).

> >

> > Looks to me like a classic case of blaming the thief when you're responsible for your own loss tbh

>

> Nah that's not whats being said. Generally, i'm talking about bad thieves (or generally any class) that goes around calling shots when they are ignorant of the fact that they may be very mediocre. In my case, the thief told our team to leave far to him all game and we would win. So... we did that in a very literally sense because he would complain if we even veered in far's direction. Anyone, this thief was basically trying to bunker the point. It wasn't decapping far at this point, it was only playing the far point and that is it. Well the other team just decided "well lets not bother with far because the amount of time it takes to take it back is not worth it compared to how long it takes for the thief to return," so they ignored the point and played 5 people on mid and our home, and they had both a druid and firebrand bunker on both point respectively. When the rest of us (4) were trying to secure one of the other two, we had to deal with 5 total enemies. That's right, i said 5. against our 4, because the thief refused to add a helping hand. He decided to spend his alone time on far to yell at people for not getting the other points when in reality he was uncontested the whole game.

>

> We were down like 200-100 or something by this point, i told him to start contributing more than camping a point that he can't hold on his own if contested. So he keep running onto points by himself against two opposing players. While this is going on, the other team caps far and so our guard goes to take it back since he is nearby. At this point, our thief pops off with anger saying "Don't go FAR you idiot, I told you to leave that to me!" while hes been dancing on home for the past 5 minutes trying to fight outnumbered fights by himself, never grouping up.

>

> Now you might say, Scott, aren't you contradicting yourself by wanting this person to do more than cap far but also wanting him not to be at home getting his kitten kicked by a mesmer and another dude? No, I have no problem with capping far. But once that is done you need to still be a threatening presence or good players will just sit on points and kill you when you return or just take the point from you. But why am I mad for him leaving far and trying to help at home? well, because he was knowingly walking into 1v2's by himself while teammates were dead and complaining about us not helping him. He wasn't +1'ing a fight, he was starting outnumbered fights complaining that we weren't running into certain death. Instead he should work rotations around in ways that help drag enemies off of their points, but should also join in fights that even like a 1v1 or 2v2. But he never did that. And he was unable to kill or hold a point. He had the mobility to cap far on his own when it was uncontested but he was unable to handle being contested at all and for that reason a liability.

>

> I ended up playing with a member from the opposing team after the match and he also acknowledged his remorse for me having to play with him. He was doing a lot of map chat complaining, hoping that people would recognize that him, the thief, was not the reason for the loss. A lot of bad players do this, they overly complain and try to even convince the opposing team by using map chat, that they were playing amazingly and want recognition for it, while the rest of the team was "trash". With this said, I'm not saying I'm god at pvp nor extremely good. I'm gold 3 kitten, so I'm relatively average but I also understand that its a team game. We are ranked in the same ranking for a reason most of the time. If the team is losing, their is always something more "I' can do, and I should also try to motivate or give some direction to teammates who may be fumbling around. Sometimes you get a match where the majority of players on your team are hardcountered by something. Sometimes another player on the opposing team is just extremely good. But you can't blame others for yourself not being a good team player or leader.

 

Well there's a clusterfuck of stuff going on there. I was going to comment point by point but there's just too much.

 

Bottom line, going off your own comments even there's a lot of stuff the thief was correct about, and also stuff he was not correct about, and the same goes for the rest of your team. Ultimately, there are a number of serious mistakes here, and it sounds like both the thief and the rest of the team were terrible, and that the only thing I can see the thief definitively being wrong on is running his mouth to his own teammates. If someone else started on his case first, I can maybe justify it, but if not, then it's on him. Rule #1 is never attack your own teammates. Attacking the other team is OK and even sometimes desirable, but attacking your own team is pretty much always GG.

 

Also, how fucked up does your organization have to be in order for the GUARDIAN to be rotating far? I'm with the thief on that one.