Chrono isn't That OP, Anet Plz Don't Destroy it

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > > > > > @"shadowpass.4236" said:

> > > > > > > > The damage is also a huge problem. As is the survivability and cc. Also the boon duration. On top of having portal.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The CS suggestion is pretty awful as well.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I could do a 16k attack every 20s you know to avoid that attack, you can look for it’s tells and win by avoiding the strongest attacks.

> > > > > > > If I could do a 10k attack, then repeat it if you dodged, followed by another if you dodged the second that’s where these things get out of control.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > It’s the same reason why coalescence of ruin is completely broken in WvW, the damage now is fine as it won’t oneshot you if you have a bit of health padding but at 4s cool down you just spam it to kill people.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Tell that to Gazelle's Charge. The skill could do 4k base damage every 20 seconds, or 20k with a lot of setup and a specific build and the damage got nerfed by 50% in less than a month.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Meanwhile Chronos can do equivalent damage repeatedly while ccing and maintaining permanent boon uptime while being tankier and more mobile than other classes, and they have portal.

> > > > >

> > > > > Gazelles charge was a FGS type effect issue if I remember correctly where it would hit multiple times doing large amounts of damage.

> > > > >

> > > > > Not sure why you bring it up to be honest other than you play ranger and possibly a little salty over losing the one shot as my entire point was about multiple high damage sources being on too short a cool down. The issue with Chrono being that it can reduce the cool downs on its skills and double up on them while having a baseline double up on skill use mechanic. If you have issue with the way Gazelle was nerfed or whatever then make your own thread and ask for attention to be brought to it and a fix you think is better.

> > > >

> > > > Why is everyone on the internet so obsessed with getting people mad? It's a bit silly.

> > > >

> > > > The multiple hits all landed at the same time. In your own words, doing 75-100% of someone's health in a single attack is perfectly fine as long as you can't spam it. Gazelle's Charge was a single attack that did: **"16k damage every 20s. You knew how to avoid the attack, because you could look for its tells and dodge it."**

> > > >

> > > > Yet Anet nerfed it heavily and quickly despite it being not able to be spammed. If this skill alone received a 50% damage nerf, and mesmer has access to skills that do just as much damage, multiple times. They should realistically ALL receive 70% damage nerfs MINIMUM to bring them down to a respectable level.

> > > >

> > > > Disenchanter should only remove 2 boons. Defender shouldn't do damage at all.

> > >

> > > But I’m not complaining about Gazelles charge and this thread isn’t about Gazelles or ranger. If anything all you are doing is reinforcing what many mesmer players have been saying recently and that is that the real issues of these incredibly strong skills should be tackled rather than straight up damage nerfs.

> >

> > No, but the comparison is valid.

> >

> > You stated:

> >

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > The damage isn’t a problem, the cool down manipulation is.

> >

> > Yet I contested that BOTH are an issue. The Gazelle damage nerf was just an example I gave of a similar situation in which a high damaging skill received an extremely heavy reduction. However, this applies even more so to mesmer because it can do MORE damage, whilst simultaneously retaining a higher effectiveness in nearly every other aspec

> >

>

> No singular mesmer skill is doing anything close to the damage of your gazelle example, it is a combination of multiple skills and traits causing this.

> A gazelle no matter what ranger build you use could have hit for 20k, whether it be core, druid or SB, **on a singular skill**.

> Core mesmer will not have any singular phantasm skill come close.

> Mirage will not have any singular phantasm skill come close.

> Therefore the problem is that these skills are being used more frequently than their cool downs balance them by so the targets should be what enables this.

> This is why I said what I said, the problem isn’t the damage, the problem is what enables the skills to be used more frequently.

>

> Two wrongs don’t make a right.

 

Of course no phantasm skill will come close to doing that kind of damage because that number is made up lol.

IT WAS A BUG! Its not intended unlike your mesmer phantasm skills which are intended and hitting hard several times via cd manipulation.

That bug got fixed when scourges shades got fixed (Long ago when condi mirage was performing way too hard) Gazelle no longer hits any where near that amount of damage.

Dont use bugged skills that dont exists in the game anymore justify how hard current non bugged skills actually do hit because of being over tuned and traits.

[Odik.4587]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

This bug did like 60-70k damage ? And where you found that anyone said its should stay as it is ?

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> This bug did like 60-70k damage ? And where you found that anyone said its should stay as it is ?

 

I never said that it should stay that way. But it was without a doubt a bug and it was fixed. When skills are over performing HARD! and they are not bugged no doubt they should also be fixed.

**My whole point is**

Its not a good argument at any point to compare a bugged skill to a non bugged skill as a reason to justify that that or those skills do not hit hard.

[Odik.4587]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > This bug did like 60-70k damage ? And where you found that anyone said its should stay as it is ?

>

> I never said that it should stay that way. But it was without a doubt a bug and it was fixed. When skills are over performing HARD! and they are not bugged no doubt they should also be fixed.

> **My whole point is**

> Its not a good argument at any point to compare a bugged skill to a non bugged skill as a reason to justify that that or those skills do not hit hard.

 

I meant : who said this phantasms should stay as it is ?

Gazelle damage was overtuned because they literally needed to bring you to 90% with smokescale and execute you with quickness charge. And because its killed you through downedstate its brought much more attention obviously ( its much more complicated for them to decide how to solve this problem)

[apharma.3741]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

>

> Of course no phantasm skill will come close to doing that kind of damage because that number is made up lol.

> IT WAS A BUG! Its not intended unlike your mesmer phantasm skills which are intended and hitting hard several times via cd manipulation.

> That bug got fixed when scourges shades got fixed (Long ago when condi mirage was performing way too hard) Gazelle no longer hits any where near that amount of damage.

> Dont use bugged skills that dont exists in the game anymore justify how hard current non bugged skills actually do hit because of being over tuned and traits.

 

I wasn’t using it as any justification, I didn’t even bring it up in the first place, go read through the responses. I’ve been saying repeatedly that the problem is the cool down manipulation, in particular SotE, CP and CS. Some of the skills do hit hard but they also have 1s casts as well as the opportunity to dodge the attack which is why I wouldn’t touch the damage before sorting out the cool down manipulation aspect as you can’t accurately gauge if it’s overperforming by itself or not.

 

I guess you could by not using them, but I haven’t seen anyone doing that, probably because they’re not that strong without all the CD manipulation. You’re literally telling me exactly what I’ve been saying since the first time I commented.

[mortrialus.3062]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> >

> > Of course no phantasm skill will come close to doing that kind of damage because that number is made up lol.

> > IT WAS A BUG! Its not intended unlike your mesmer phantasm skills which are intended and hitting hard several times via cd manipulation.

> > That bug got fixed when scourges shades got fixed (Long ago when condi mirage was performing way too hard) Gazelle no longer hits any where near that amount of damage.

> > Dont use bugged skills that dont exists in the game anymore justify how hard current non bugged skills actually do hit because of being over tuned and traits.

>

> I wasn’t using it as any justification, I didn’t even bring it up in the first place, go read through the responses. I’ve been saying repeatedly that the problem is the cool down manipulation, in particular SotE, CP and CS. Some of the skills do hit hard but they also have 1s casts as well as the opportunity to dodge the attack which is why I wouldn’t touch the damage before sorting out the cool down manipulation aspect as you can’t accurately gauge if it’s overperforming by itself or not.

>

> I guess you could by not using them, but I haven’t seen anyone doing that, probably because they’re not that strong without all the CD manipulation. You’re literally telling me exactly what I’ve been saying since the first time I commented.

 

This. Maybe Echo of Memory is potentially doing too much damage. It certainly is a meaty hit at about 4k-6k. I think it's an interesting skill to play around in the absence of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. It has a very clear tell with the giant clock bubble around the Chronomancer when active. It also has a very predictable 1.5 second duration which gives the skill and the phantasm a very predictable wind up. If you don't block the skill they only get one block and one phantasm. If you are dodging or Line of Sighting when the phantasm is summoning it'll completely prevent the phantasm from spawning. And the phantasms attack itself can be dodged.

 

There's a lot of real counter play to this skill. All around great skill in my opinion, this is exactly what we should want to see from big skills, not instant cast garbage like Jaunt back when the confusion was worth something like 3k damage on the old Carrion Ineptitude build.

 

But when Chronomancers are summoning 4-8 of the things not even including Continuum Split it's out of control.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > This bug did like 60-70k damage ? And where you found that anyone said its should stay as it is ?

> >

> > I never said that it should stay that way. But it was without a doubt a bug and it was fixed. When skills are over performing HARD! and they are not bugged no doubt they should also be fixed.

> > **My whole point is**

> > Its not a good argument at any point to compare a bugged skill to a non bugged skill as a reason to justify that that or those skills do not hit hard.

>

> I meant : who said this phantasms should stay as it is ?

> Gazelle damage was overtuned because they literally needed to bring you to 90% with smokescale and execute you with quickness charge. And because its killed you through downedstate its brought much more attention obviously ( its much more complicated for them to decide how to solve this problem)

 

Why are we even still talking about the darn gazelle we have already established that it was a bug which no longer exist.

But yes its more complicated because of how much they did at once to solve mesmer problems

 

You know if anet actually just put some effort into revamping the other professions I doubt mesmer would be getting as much hate right now.

But because anet chose not to do that everyone thats not a mesmer player feels left out. I mean after all why should one profession get a rework to 50% of its base mechanics and not the others. That could be where alot of this hate stimulates from too >.>

[apharma.3741]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > >

> > > Of course no phantasm skill will come close to doing that kind of damage because that number is made up lol.

> > > IT WAS A BUG! Its not intended unlike your mesmer phantasm skills which are intended and hitting hard several times via cd manipulation.

> > > That bug got fixed when scourges shades got fixed (Long ago when condi mirage was performing way too hard) Gazelle no longer hits any where near that amount of damage.

> > > Dont use bugged skills that dont exists in the game anymore justify how hard current non bugged skills actually do hit because of being over tuned and traits.

> >

> > I wasn’t using it as any justification, I didn’t even bring it up in the first place, go read through the responses. I’ve been saying repeatedly that the problem is the cool down manipulation, in particular SotE, CP and CS. Some of the skills do hit hard but they also have 1s casts as well as the opportunity to dodge the attack which is why I wouldn’t touch the damage before sorting out the cool down manipulation aspect as you can’t accurately gauge if it’s overperforming by itself or not.

> >

> > I guess you could by not using them, but I haven’t seen anyone doing that, probably because they’re not that strong without all the CD manipulation. You’re literally telling me exactly what I’ve been saying since the first time I commented.

>

> This. Maybe Echo of Memory is potentially doing too much damage. It certainly is a meaty hit at about 4k-6k. I think it's an interesting skill to play around in the absence of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. It has a very clear tell with the giant clock bubble around the Chronomancer when active. It also has a very predictable 1.5 second duration which gives the skill and the phantasm a very predictable wind up. If you don't block the skill they only get one block and one phantasm. If you are dodging or Line of Sighting when the phantasm is summoning it'll completely prevent the phantasm from spawning. And the phantasms attack itself can be dodged.

>

> There's a lot of real counter play to this skill. All around great skill in my opinion, this is exactly what we should want to see from big skills, not instant cast garbage like Jaunt back when the confusion was worth something like 3k damage on the old Carrion Ineptitude build.

>

> But when Chronomancers are summoning 4-8 of the things not even including Continuum Split it's out of control.

 

Precisely.

[ZDragon.3046]

> @"mortrialus.3062" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > >

> > > Of course no phantasm skill will come close to doing that kind of damage because that number is made up lol.

> > > IT WAS A BUG! Its not intended unlike your mesmer phantasm skills which are intended and hitting hard several times via cd manipulation.

> > > That bug got fixed when scourges shades got fixed (Long ago when condi mirage was performing way too hard) Gazelle no longer hits any where near that amount of damage.

> > > Dont use bugged skills that dont exists in the game anymore justify how hard current non bugged skills actually do hit because of being over tuned and traits.

> >

> > I wasn’t using it as any justification, I didn’t even bring it up in the first place, go read through the responses. I’ve been saying repeatedly that the problem is the cool down manipulation, in particular SotE, CP and CS. Some of the skills do hit hard but they also have 1s casts as well as the opportunity to dodge the attack which is why I wouldn’t touch the damage before sorting out the cool down manipulation aspect as you can’t accurately gauge if it’s overperforming by itself or not.

> >

> > I guess you could by not using them, but I haven’t seen anyone doing that, probably because they’re not that strong without all the CD manipulation. You’re literally telling me exactly what I’ve been saying since the first time I commented.

>

> This. Maybe Echo of Memory is potentially doing too much damage. It certainly is a meaty hit at about 4k-6k. I think it's an interesting skill to play around in the absence of Chronophantasma and Signet of the Ether. It has a very clear tell with the giant clock bubble around the Chronomancer when active. It also has a very predictable 1.5 second duration which gives the skill and the phantasm a very predictable wind up. If you don't block the skill they only get one block and one phantasm. If you are dodging or Line of Sighting when the phantasm is summoning it'll completely prevent the phantasm from spawning. And the phantasms attack itself can be dodged.

>

> There's a lot of real counter play to this skill. All around great skill in my opinion, this is exactly what we should want to see from big skills, not instant cast garbage like Jaunt back when the confusion was worth something like 3k damage on the old Carrion Ineptitude build.

>

> But when Chronomancers are summoning 4-8 of the things not even including Continuum Split it's out of control.

 

I think without chrono pahntasma that skill is actually nearly fine. Because it also inflicts slow though the damage is high for such a strong soft cc. IF the slow was not applied the damage would be ok it has obvious tell and counter play. If the slow remains the damage should be dropped maybe from 2 to 4 k ish.

 

The double use for 1 cd and instant refresh on said cooldowns is insane.

[Enigmoid.1264]

> @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > @"Enigmoid.1264" said:

> > > @"OriOri.8724" said:

> > > Threads like this do absolutely nothing to help mesmer get balanced, but they sure do seem to contribute to the growing kitten of people asking for the wrong nerfs to the class. Nerfs that don't fix any underlying issues at all.

> >

> > The simple answer is that Mesmer needs far more nerfs than anyone really thinks - especially the specific (not all) Mesmer mains who think that changing a few traits will somehow 'fix' the class. Their proposed nerfs generally do not fix the class and appear to be based on reducing Mesmer from Zeus God level to Heracles Demigod level - still incredibly OP. In the vast majority of cases these 'nerfs' include buffs as well and will not remove the class from its S+++ tier level - it will still be far stronger than its competition.

> >

> > Look at all the nerfs Scourge had since PoF launched, how many times people cried that due to nerfs it was dead and it still dominates hard in PvP and WvW (I realize that this is the PvP subforum but changes to mesmer are going to affect other gamemodes so I will briefly try to touch on them). Look at all the nerfs Holo had including the 25% damage reduction on photon at PoF launch. Still pretty strong. Spellbreaker is still a decent build. All of these took multiple waves of nerfs to bring them into line. Nobody wants this mesmer train to last the 6+ months it is taking Anet to fix scourge. Multiple classes and specializations still need buffs (Revenant and Elementalist) and don't have a meta build to their name. With this said, Anet should focus on balancing mesmer properly, not little by little nerfing it, cause it could take easily 6+ months to fix this class and the playerbase is going to revolt. Try to balance mesmer not gut it but a little overnerfing is better than undernerfing.

> >

> > The issue is not limited to Chronophantasma or Signet of the Ether. Mesmer is massively overperforming on all levels across the board (talking PvP, WvW, and PvE) and needs more than a couple trait and weapon changes to bring it in line. Mesmer pretty much requires a massive trait nerf to be anything close to reasonable - look at the absurdity that is chaos. There simply are not any significant weak points to current mesmer builds. High damage while running defensive traitlines. Able to dodge while channeling skills or stomping at basically 0 cost (other classes can do this but they have to take a tradeoff). Excessively tanky (lots of access to vigor and protection, distortion).

> >

> > Honestly the issue beyond CS, CP, and Ether phantasm spam is that traits simply don't have necessary cooldowns, are dependent on conditions that are far too spamable/general, or are uncapped such that while the average benefit from that trait is in line the maximal benefit is completely nuts. Here are a couple examples.

> >

> > Illusionary Defense: 5% damage reduction for 5 seconds when summoning an illusion. 5 stack max. Adept.

> > First this condition is very easy to fufill. Mesmer is always summoning illusions and this trait basically operates as a passive. This is not a conditional trait in that it only works under a particular circumstance (i.e. Light Density Amplifier: reduced damage **while in photon forge**) - this trait always operates at effective 100% uptime (Geomancer's Defence: 10% damage reduction from foes within 360 range. Not always useful.) and does not require you to significantly modify your playstyle (Putrid Defense: take 10% less damage from poisoned foes. This requires you to poison your enemy.) to gain a benefit. This is not a trait that gives any negative effects (Light Density Amplifier: gain extra heat). This is a trait where the maximum benefit is significantly higher than almost every other damage reduction trait in the game (Resilience of Shadows is also 25% but in stealth). This trait is consistent, strong, has no negatives, and is easy to use. Yes it does require you to be summoning illusions but it will generally be active to some level almost constantly and more importantly you will have high stacks while executing a burst (can be up for a long time when using CS + Ether). This is one of the best DR traits in the game and it is **Adept**.

> >

> > Chaotic Persistance: 3% boon and condition duration for every boon you have on you.

> > The issue here is how massive this can scale. With a significant number of boons this outscales any other concentration trait in the game but it also provides condition duration as well. With boonspam the way it it this trait is very overpowered. It also lies in a boon heavy traitline.

> >

> > Evasive Mirror: Gain mirror (2s) after a successful evasion. 1.5 s cd.

> > On mirage this is really quite strong and can shut down ranged builds. Not always taken but with the vigor mirage gets and the longer doges (more likely to evade an attack) this is an awful lot of projectile hate off of a single trait.

> >

> > Mirage Mantle: Gain Protection (2s) when mirage cloak ends.

> > Why does mirage with its innate class design need so much protection? This is a lot of protection as well coming off a single trait.

> >

> > Phantasmal Haste: Phantasms spawn with quickness (3s), gain quickness when you spawn a phantasm.

> > The is no ICD on this trait making it very abusable in conjunction with CS and Ether. Huge issue dealing with huge numbers of phantasms with this trait. Lots of quickness uptime.

> >

> > Bountiful Disillusionment: Gain boons on shatter. Gain 5s stability on shatter. No ICD

> > This is a lot of easy stability for a slippery class and one who can dodge while attacking. Also needs to be nerfed because of PvE due to the excessive boonshare (Chrono already has enough). The fact that stability is gained on any shatter and the mesmer doesn't need to have any clones out makes it a very strong get-out-of-jail free card.

> >

> > The strength and overpoweredness of mesmer is not just from CS + CP + Ether, its not just that the traits have a lot of synergy, its that the traits themselves are very strong especially when complementing class mechanics.

> >

> > Mesmer needs a significant across the board haircut. This is not just limited to PvP either. End game PvE revolves around the Mesmer.

>

> This is a well thought out post, but you don't seem to quite grasp how much nerfing the synergy between CP and SotE will do in terms of reigning the class in. Are those the only things on mesmer that are overperforming? No, but they overshadow everything else by so much that they need to be the top priority to fix. That is why we are focusing on them. Besides, they nerf a whole lot of other things along with them. For example, imagine if just SotE active effect and CP were changed. No resetting phantasm CDs, and CP changed so that a phantasm attacks twice, instead of summoning a new phantasm after it attacks:

>

> * Instantly, cut down on the number of possible phantasms summoned by more than half (closer to 3/4). Already this is a pretty solid nerf, but I agree that its not enough. However, still a solid nerf for mesmer and chronomancer, but most importantly, it carries a chain reaction

> * Phantasmal haste procs nearly 3/4 less often than it did prior to this change, massively reducing our access to quickness via said trait. Can we still maintain high quickness uptime? Yes, especially as a chrono. However, we can no longer do that with just 1 trait, which means we have to increase our investment if we want quickness, which lowers the investment we can put in other places

> * Compounding power gains a ramp up time. What I mean is that we can no longer get 4 stacks of compounding power from a single skill use. Significant nerf? Not really. But at least we would have to do something to reach max stacks, unlike now.

> * Phantasmal force becomes 1/2 - 2/3 less effective as it is now. This makes it significantly harder for a mesmer or chrono to stack high might on themselves. Right now, with Avenger/Warlock/traited berserker and CP, a single skill use (technically 2 for avenger, but insignificant detail) will generate 12 personal might on ourselves in PvE, 8 personal might in PvP/WvW. With just the changes listed to SotE and CP, this will drop down to 6 might in PvE, and 4 in PvP/WvW from this single skill. When you take this into consideration of all of our phantasm generation, this is a huge nerf to this might generation trait, which in turn is a pretty large nerf to our damage output across the board.

> * Sharper images - Not truly significant, but fewer phantasms out means fewer illusions scoring critical hits, means fewer bleeds stacked on you. Again, not significant, but it will be nerfed if SotE and CP are addressed

> * Sympathetic Visage - Again, its proccing significantly less, so it will be cleansing fewer conditions from the mesmer. Significant nerf? I think its more than some people would give credit, makes it harder for us to run a build without a dedicated condi cleanse skill

> * Mental Defense loses its reset from SotE. Cuts our ability to use this trait in half, which again just compounds the effects of the other effects

> * PoM will proc significantly less often than it does now. Reduces our ability to keep perma boons up, by quite a bit, along with that note that, under the example change to CP given, PoM will never share quickness or aegis with us, as those would time out on the phantasms before they complete their second attack. So on top of proccing less often, it would also never give us aegis or quickness.

>

> Now, on top of all of that, the change to SotE would also cut our clone generation from phantasm skills, leading to weaker shatters overall, which would, of course, also nerf the effect of every single shatter related trait in the game.

>

> Are there other things that need nerfing with mesmer and our elites? Yes, absolutely. We aren't denying that. You rightfully pointed out illusionary defense, you also forgot shatter storm and a few other traits. But that doesn't change the fact that changing SotE and CP will have a massive cascading nerf effect on the rest of core mesmer, and hence also on chrono and mirage. You, and many many other people on the forum, don't seem to understand just how big of a nerf will come from just that 1 skill and 1 trait being changed. No, its not enough, its also much bigger of an effect than you give it credit though.

 

Again. People, especially those who main mesmer, do not understand the sheer number of nerfs it will take to bring this class down to a reasonable level. Firebrand and Scourge have got nerf after nerf since the launch of PoF. Despite all the necro and firebrand mains complaining that their class was **finished** scourge and firebrand are still something like 75% of WvW.

 

There is literally a thread on the mesmer forums asking for buffs. Looking at the suggestions (yours and others), I can only hope Anet knows how out of touch some players are. This the the literal god tier class in PvP and WvW and has solid dps and god support builds in PvE (PvE revolves around the chrono) and looking at that thread a person would think that mesmer needed some love.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/35350/mesmer-buffs#latest

 

> * Phantasmal haste procs nearly 3/4 less often than it did prior to this change, massively reducing our access to quickness via said trait. Can we still maintain high quickness uptime? Yes, especially as a chrono. **However, we can no longer do that with just 1 trait**, which means we have to increase our investment if we want quickness, which lowers the investment we can put in other places

 

Do you realize how crazy that sounds? You aren't supposed to have quickness for free. Even nerfed with CP and Ether changes this is still a very very solid trait that is well ahead of things like the warrior's "gain 4s of quickness when striking an enemy with less than 50% health, 15s ICD". Considering this trait used to not give quickness at all there is absolutely no reason to complain. This trait could easily take the CP and Ether nerf and be nerfed to only give 1s of quickness and still be very strong (i.e. you would have quickness during burst which is the important thing). Yes you and **ANY** class should significantly have to increase your investment in quickness if you want it to any significant extent. This is the whole issue with mesmer - its doing everything at once and doing everything well.

 

> * Compounding power gains a ramp up time. What I mean is that we can no longer get 4 stacks of compounding power from a single skill use. Significant nerf? Not really. But at least we would have to do something to reach max stacks, unlike now.

 

You should have to do something to reach max stacks. Max stacks is +15% damage, +15% condition damage, one of the larger damage modifiers in the game. If you could reach max stacks trivially this trait would be OP. This trait is absolutely fine with CP and Ether nerfs, perhaps overturned as it is (it is both power and condition damage).

 

> * Phantasmal force becomes 1/2 - 2/3 less effective as it is now. This makes it significantly harder for a mesmer or chrono to stack high might on themselves. Right now, with Avenger/Warlock/traited berserker and CP, a single skill use (technically 2 for avenger, but insignificant detail) will generate 12 personal might on ourselves in PvE, 8 personal might in PvP/WvW. With just the changes listed to SotE and CP, this will drop down to 6 might in PvE, and 4 in PvP/WvW from this single skill. When you take this into consideration of all of our phantasm generation, this is a huge nerf to this might generation trait, which in turn is a pretty large nerf to our damage output across the board.

 

That is an absolutely fine nerf. With CP and Ether gone this is a balanced trait.

 

> * Sharper images - Not truly significant, but fewer phantasms out means fewer illusions scoring critical hits, means fewer bleeds stacked on you. Again, not significant, but it will be nerfed if SotE and CP are addressed

 

Agree. But this is an odd trait and more often used in PvE.

 

> * Sympathetic Visage - Again, its proccing significantly less, so it will be cleansing fewer conditions from the mesmer. Significant nerf? I think its more than some people would give credit, makes it harder for us to run a build without a dedicated condi cleanse skill

 

If you want cleanse then do as everyone else does and make compromises on your builds for cleanse.

 

> * Mental Defense loses its reset from SotE. Cuts our ability to use this trait in half, which again just compounds the effects of the other effects

 

Fair enough.

 

> * PoM will proc significantly less often than it does now. Reduces our ability to keep perma boons up, by quite a bit, along with that note that, under the example change to CP given, PoM will never share quickness or aegis with us, as those would time out on the phantasms before they complete their second attack. So on top of proccing less often, it would also never give us aegis or quickness.

 

You should not have perma boons without significant investment. Even with CP and Ether nerfs it is still a very strong trait when combined with things like bountiful disillusionment. PoM can still share any boon, it just depends on when the boon is applied and when the phantasm becomes a clone. It becomes less of an individual trait but remains very powerful in a team fight (i.e. firebrand gives AOE stab/aegis/retal but its a 3v3 or 2v2 fight so it hits your phantasm which shortly becomes a clone and gives you boons).

 

Other issues such as high protection uptime on mirage, high mirror uptime, lots of stability, chaos chrono still need to be addressed.

 

I think there is a bit of a design issue with mesmer. To try and keep abilities/skils at an ok power level for core and mirage skills and abilities can't be completely useless. Yet having CS, Alacrity, and Signet of the Ether means that skills can be used far more frequently than balanced around. Having a long cooldown hurts core/mirage but makes chrono broken. The solution would involve reworking signet of the ether so that it does not affect cooldowns in any way. CS is very difficult to balance around not sure what to do here. Other classes should have access to alacrity - its a boon now and this would help balance PvE (I am not going into PvE mesmer balance but its obvious that chono needs a TON of nerfs as the mesmer rework only buffed the most over performing build in PvE. The support duo of chrono and druid is not healthy for the game long term - We had an expansion launch and there has been no change on this duo, making the game feel stale).

 

The other design issue is the lack of direct damage modifiers. Mesmer has a couple but still less than other classes. To balance around this base weapon/phantasm damage is relatively high and the few damage modifiers that mesmers gets are quite large. This means that mesmer can grab defensive traits/abilities without dramatically affecting its damage output. Look at most chrono builds which take mostly defensive traits yet still deal very significant damage. The solution here would be to drop damage globally across weapons and phantasms by some (significant) amount and put many more damage modifiers in clearly offensive traitlines. This would preserve PvE while toning down the damage in competitive modes or at least give the mesmer a choice between glass and defensive. Incidentally this is also why ele sucks in PvP; it has too many damage modifiers so base damage is low (disregard staff at look at other weapons such as sword, **weapon damage** (not considering utilities) is beyond abysmal considering how difficult and unreliable it is to hit anything), meaning that when ele has to give up those offensive traits for defensive traits it hits like a noodle. The sustain to damage tradeoff isn't there on elementalist and so it doesn't have a reasonable damage to sustain ratio and either dies almost immediately or tanks and can't kill anything. Ele could be helped by the exact opposite 'fix' for mesmer: add about ~20% base weapon damage and throw out ~3 +10%/+5% damage modifiers. Not trying to go off topic just pointing this out.

 

Ultimately nerfing CP and Ether would not fix one of the underlying issues with mesmer which is the damage to sustain ratio. Chrono/mirage were strong before the last two patches; the mesmer rework was a very strong buff to the class and the passives nerf patch hit other classes far harder. Nerfs beyond CP and Ether are absolutely needed.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4. Anything except this is worthless as their trait lines are so deep in power that any nerfed traits can easily be replaced by an equally OP trait.

> > >

> > > Sufficient nerfs would be along the lines of reducing the damage of the utility phantasms and addressing overperforming traits and skills. Shatters do not belong to either of those categories, especially F2-4.

> >

> > All those f1-f4 skills are extremely strong. Across the board nerfs to all of them would bring some balance. I would suggest cast times on all those skills to add some counter play. If this is not possible with the skill splits then probably just double the cooldowns of all these skills would be appropriate. Other changes would be needed alongside f1-f4 nerfs though. As these nerfs alone would still leave mesmer too strong.

>

> Are you joking? Like actually are you joking?

>

> So not only do you want to nerf their effect into irrelevance, you want to add cast times to them and/or completely DOUBLE the cooldown. Of course they'd leave mesmer too strong as those nerfs don't target the actual issues whatsoever.

>

> What profession mechanics would you like to nerf next? Give revenants a cast time on switching legends? Give all Engi Toolbelt skills a cast time? Double the cooldown of Guardian F2 and F3?

 

The profession skills are too good. So they should be nerfed. The F1 in particular is obscenely overpowered.

 

Blurred frenzy evade up time must be nerfed. F1 must be nerfed. Several traits must be nerfed and greatsword dps must be nerfed. That would be a good starting point. Enough? No chance. But a good emergency nerf until further nerfs can happen

[apharma.3741]

@"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

 

I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4. Anything except this is worthless as their trait lines are so deep in power that any nerfed traits can easily be replaced by an equally OP trait.

> > > >

> > > > Sufficient nerfs would be along the lines of reducing the damage of the utility phantasms and addressing overperforming traits and skills. Shatters do not belong to either of those categories, especially F2-4.

> > >

> > > All those f1-f4 skills are extremely strong. Across the board nerfs to all of them would bring some balance. I would suggest cast times on all those skills to add some counter play. If this is not possible with the skill splits then probably just double the cooldowns of all these skills would be appropriate. Other changes would be needed alongside f1-f4 nerfs though. As these nerfs alone would still leave mesmer too strong.

> >

> > Are you joking? Like actually are you joking?

> >

> > So not only do you want to nerf their effect into irrelevance, you want to add cast times to them and/or completely DOUBLE the cooldown. Of course they'd leave mesmer too strong as those nerfs don't target the actual issues whatsoever.

> >

> > What profession mechanics would you like to nerf next? Give revenants a cast time on switching legends? Give all Engi Toolbelt skills a cast time? Double the cooldown of Guardian F2 and F3?

>

> The profession skills are too good. So they should be nerfed. The F1 in particular is obscenely overpowered.

>

> Blurred frenzy evade up time must be nerfed. F1 must be nerfed. Several traits must be nerfed and greatsword dps must be nerfed. That would be a good starting point. Enough? No chance. But a good emergency nerf until further nerfs can happen

 

That guy never been worth reading ,amount of absurd coming from him is over the top . More nerfs on GS ahahahaha XD

>@Enigmoid.1264

>Max stacks is +15% damage, +15% condition damage

tldr that wall but its 10% damage,150 condi damage max.

 

[Odik.4587]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> @"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

>

> I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

 

Instead of buffs you got discussion about QoL changes... feelsbad ...

[Enigmoid.1264]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> @"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

>

> I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

 

Yeah I know that. QoL changes are good but many of those suggestions are just straight up buffs.

 

@"Odik.4587"

Whoops.

[Lordrosicky.5813]

> @"Odik.4587" said:

> > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4. Anything except this is worthless as their trait lines are so deep in power that any nerfed traits can easily be replaced by an equally OP trait.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sufficient nerfs would be along the lines of reducing the damage of the utility phantasms and addressing overperforming traits and skills. Shatters do not belong to either of those categories, especially F2-4.

> > > >

> > > > All those f1-f4 skills are extremely strong. Across the board nerfs to all of them would bring some balance. I would suggest cast times on all those skills to add some counter play. If this is not possible with the skill splits then probably just double the cooldowns of all these skills would be appropriate. Other changes would be needed alongside f1-f4 nerfs though. As these nerfs alone would still leave mesmer too strong.

> > >

> > > Are you joking? Like actually are you joking?

> > >

> > > So not only do you want to nerf their effect into irrelevance, you want to add cast times to them and/or completely DOUBLE the cooldown. Of course they'd leave mesmer too strong as those nerfs don't target the actual issues whatsoever.

> > >

> > > What profession mechanics would you like to nerf next? Give revenants a cast time on switching legends? Give all Engi Toolbelt skills a cast time? Double the cooldown of Guardian F2 and F3?

> >

> > The profession skills are too good. So they should be nerfed. The F1 in particular is obscenely overpowered.

> >

> > Blurred frenzy evade up time must be nerfed. F1 must be nerfed. Several traits must be nerfed and greatsword dps must be nerfed. That would be a good starting point. Enough? No chance. But a good emergency nerf until further nerfs can happen

>

> That guy never been worth reading ,amount of absurd coming from him is over the top . More nerfs on GS ahahahaha XD

> >@Enigmoid.1264

> >Max stacks is +15% damage, +15% condition damage

> tldr that wall but its 10% damage,150 condi damage max.

>

 

I really wonder those who play mesmer and dont think it is way way way too good. Like it isn't a little too good. It is way too good. This is basically a l2p issue I think. Mesmer's who cannot dominate pvp and wvw must be SOOOO bad. Anyone who plays mesmer and doesn't dominate must be doing so badly.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Enigmoid.1264" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

> >

> > I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

>

> Yeah I know that. QoL changes are good but many of those suggestions are just straight up buffs.

>

> @"Odik.4587"

> Whoops.

 

Yeah I won’t pretend everything is QoL changes and some did post straight up buffs but things like halving timewarps duration and cool down wouldn’t increase its power but give useable elites that aren’t on hilariously long cool downs because right now on core mesmer it’s horrible to play anything that isn’t abusing phantasms.

[Odik.4587]

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

 

> I really wonder those who play mesmer and dont think it is way way way too good. Like it isn't a little too good. It is way too good. This is basically a l2p issue I think. Mesmer's who cannot dominate pvp and wvw must be SOOOO bad. Anyone who plays mesmer and doesn't dominate must be doing so badly.

 

You are exactly right , people that being farmed by GS shatter mesmer should really l2p. I'm all with you ,so go ahead ;)

[Enigmoid.1264]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> > @"Enigmoid.1264" said:

> > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

> > >

> > > I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

> >

> > Yeah I know that. QoL changes are good but many of those suggestions are just straight up buffs.

> >

> > @"Odik.4587"

> > Whoops.

>

> Yeah I won’t pretend everything is QoL changes and some did post straight up buffs but things like halving timewarps duration and cool down wouldn’t increase its power but give useable elites that aren’t on hilariously long cool downs because right now on core mesmer it’s horrible to play anything that isn’t abusing phantasms.

 

But it does increase its power. Part of timewarp is playing around 1) its cooldown and 2) its duration. This would dramatically increase its power because it could be more easily placed (don't have to worry about people moving out of it or the fight ending so its effective uptime would be increased). Furthermore this is not taking into account CS. Right now at 180s CD and continuum split having a 105 s cooldown (ignore alacrity) I can TW during CS and have it during the next cs (105s effective cooldown). If I use timewarp when CS is not up I sacrifice it during the next CS and its effective cooldown is massively increased.

 

Having the CD and duration means that I can use this skill between CS. I can CS, TW, end CS, wait some time for quickness to run out and then TW again. My effective quickness uptime is increased (have it when I need it), and I can re-position the field during a single fight. Furthermore if I use the skill out of CS then it is much more likely to be up for the next CS (you don't use CS off cooldown) - you aren't tied to the CS cooldown. Either way, it is a significant buff to chrono, more so than core mesmer.

 

Timewarp has a long cooldown because it is 10 person. It is a very powerful skill in general, perhaps not so in PvP, but it should not be buffed unless it is reduced to 5 man.

 

Many classes have much worse elites, hilariously long cooldowns and no way to circumvent those cooldowns like mesmer does with CS and alacrity. Look at how bad elementalist elites (even the expansion ones) are.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

It's only not OP to rangers, and that's only if they run sic'em as they can usually wipe the Mesmer out with ease. The Mesmer counters far to many classes and builds. OP you're probably best to look at it from another classes point of view. In fact, delete your Mesmer and play another class and see exactly how you fair against them. You will in fact see they need some heavy toning doing, and by heavy I mean HEAVY.

[Razor.6392]

Remember when this guy made the same thread for condi mirage?

[EnderzShadow.2506]

> @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > @"Odik.4587" said:

> > > > > @"ZDragon.3046" said:

> > > > This bug did like 60-70k damage ? And where you found that anyone said its should stay as it is ?

> > >

> > > I never said that it should stay that way. But it was without a doubt a bug and it was fixed. When skills are over performing HARD! and they are not bugged no doubt they should also be fixed.

> > > **My whole point is**

> > > Its not a good argument at any point to compare a bugged skill to a non bugged skill as a reason to justify that that or those skills do not hit hard.

> >

> > I meant : who said this phantasms should stay as it is ?

> > Gazelle damage was overtuned because they literally needed to bring you to 90% with smokescale and execute you with quickness charge. And because its killed you through downedstate its brought much more attention obviously ( its much more complicated for them to decide how to solve this problem)

>

> Why are we even still talking about the darn gazelle we have already established that it was a bug which no longer exist.

> But yes its more complicated because of how much they did at once to solve mesmer problems

>

> You know if anet actually just put some effort into revamping the other professions I doubt mesmer would be getting as much hate right now.

> But because anet chose not to do that everyone thats not a mesmer player feels left out. I mean after all why should one profession get a rework to 50% of its base mechanics and not the others. That could be where alot of this hate stimulates from too >.>

 

The gazelle was a comparison. It's not that difficult to understand.

 

Revamping other professions.

Let's just think about that for a second. You are suggesting that all the classes be balanced around the mesmer.

You don't think that maybe it would be a whole lot easier to just fix the problem (the mesmer)?

 

Why would you fix everything but the problem?

[apharma.3741]

> @"Enigmoid.1264" said:

> > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > @"Enigmoid.1264" said:

> > > > @"apharma.3741" said:

> > > > @"Enigmoid.1264" As the person that made the mesmer buffs thread I will tell you the intention. It was made as bit of fun, I honestly thought it would trigger people more and get rage but for some reason it’s mostly been a discussion on skill redesigns and changes that wouldn’t be buffs and more like QoL changes.

> > > >

> > > > I guess the joke backfired in the best way possible.

> > >

> > > Yeah I know that. QoL changes are good but many of those suggestions are just straight up buffs.

> > >

> > > @"Odik.4587"

> > > Whoops.

> >

> > Yeah I won’t pretend everything is QoL changes and some did post straight up buffs but things like halving timewarps duration and cool down wouldn’t increase its power but give useable elites that aren’t on hilariously long cool downs because right now on core mesmer it’s horrible to play anything that isn’t abusing phantasms.

>

> But it does increase its power. Part of timewarp is playing around 1) its cooldown and 2) its duration. This would dramatically increase its power because it could be more easily placed (don't have to worry about people moving out of it or the fight ending so its effective uptime would be increased). Furthermore this is not taking into account CS. Right now at 180s CD and continuum split having a 105 s cooldown (ignore alacrity) I can TW during CS and have it during the next cs (105s effective cooldown). If I use timewarp when CS is not up I sacrifice it during the next CS and its effective cooldown is massively increased.

>

> Having the CD and duration means that I can use this skill between CS. I can CS, TW, end CS, wait some time for quickness to run out and then TW again. My effective quickness uptime is increased (have it when I need it), and I can re-position the field during a single fight. Furthermore if I use the skill out of CS then it is much more likely to be up for the next CS (you don't use CS off cooldown) - you aren't tied to the CS cooldown. Either way, it is a significant buff to chrono, more so than core mesmer.

>

> Timewarp has a long cooldown because it is 10 person. It is a very powerful skill in general, perhaps not so in PvP, but it should not be buffed unless it is reduced to 5 man.

>

> Many classes have much worse elites, hilariously long cooldowns and no way to circumvent those cooldowns like mesmer does with CS and alacrity. Look at how bad elementalist elites (even the expansion ones) are.

 

If you cast a 10s TW only in CS you get 10s of quickness every 105s

Halving the duration and CD of TW means you’d get 5s of quickness in CS, use it outside to get 5s more somewhere else however you aren’t getting more quickness with chrono. If you used it within 15s of your last CS it matches up with CS again to repeat the cycle. Halving the duration and cool down of time warp has no effect on chronos other than being able to split where they apply it.

 

It would however offer core Mesmer some desperately needed choice for elites as it has 3 elites, 2 of which are on 3 minute cool downs meaning you generally play with no elite 90% of the time in PvP and WvW your only choice usually is MI unless you want to throw down TW on a group fight for it to be rendered useless by people walking out of it.

 

The only class with worse elites on its core is ele, possibly necro though plague lands is insane when traited.

[Derm.4932]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Derm.4932" said:

> > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > > @"Derm.4932" said:

> > > > > @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > > > > > @"Derm.4932" said:

> > > > > > > @"Yukio blaster.9082" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Derm.4932" said:

> > > > > > > > Nah, nerf the hell out of it. The last time we had a spec as broken as current chrono was...minstrel chrono. Nobody wants the class to be useless but it's current state requires significant nerfs, and it's far better to over-nerf and force Mesmer players to move builds than under-nerf such that Mesmer still remains in the same position until the next balance patch. If the latter happens PvP will see a big die off just as it did during the bunker chrono days. Even if Mesmer is moved out of meta due to nerfs(hugely unlikely) it's far better than the current scenario. Mesmer has been meta FOREVER while most other classes have to wait their turn. It's ridiculous how a class can persist in the meta for this long. While we're at it don't forget Mirage because it's almost as broken for different reasons.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I will tell you why Mesmer is Meta Forever, because it Got diversity Builds its a success from Anet you can see in sPVP more than 5 Mesmer builds around 3 of them Are meta and that's Amazing it's like 3 more viable classes extra in the game .so don't expect Anet to destroy there masterpiece .

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So you don't think it's a problem that Mesmer has multiple Meta builds (and I say meta but let's be real here, current chrono AND mirage are far superior to other meta builds) while other classes are lucky if they have just one? Or are you just memeing? I honestly can't tell anymore given the kitten I've read from Mesmers defending their class.

> > > > >

> > > > > Mesmer having multiple META builds is a good thing.

> > > > >

> > > > > Instead of destroying that, why not make it the benchmark for all classes?

> > > > > I would love the privilege to use any trait line for Elementalist and a selection of viable builds available at my fingertips.

> > > > > The possibilities if they invested the same rework into Revenant too.

> > > >

> > > > Because it's far easier to tone down chrono and Mirage than boost everything else up, and because powercreep is a real problem. You think Mesmer having many meta specs is a good thing but their specs are literally pushing every other side node spec out. We just had an entire patch toning everything down and it was considered good except for the relative buff to mesmers. If everything was boosted to the level of current chrono this game would be a massive meme.

> > >

> > > That's the stupidest argument ever, no offence .

> >

> > That is coming from someone who wrote

> >

> > >I will tell you why Mesmer is Meta Forever, because it Got diversity Builds its a success from Anet you can see in sPVP more than 5 Mesmer builds around 3 of them Are meta and that's Amazing it's like 3 more viable classes extra in the game .so don't expect Anet to destroy there masterpiece .

> >

> > omegalul. You mesmer mains are literally a meme now. No other profession mains go this out of their way to defend a blatantly broken class. Yet you wonder why people are calling for it to be gutted.

>

> you know what's a meme? asking Anet to give us more viable builds but then telling them when they deliver that they should destroy it.

> Mesmer mains make insightful suggestions on what to nerf due to their experience and knowledge rather than saying it's blatantly broken too.

>

> My favorite is Tempest followed up closely by Weaver but on both those specs I always feel like I have to take water or take Air/Arcane synergy... It would be great if Elementalist got the same love as Mesmer, Air and Earth could be fun ya know?... I think it would be great if all classes got the mesmer rework.

>

 

Do you legitimately think that Mesmer is at it's current level of multiple viable builds because "build diversity"? If I made every single thief attack do 1000000 damage all of a sudden every conceivable thief build would be viable, but only because massive powercreep, not build diversity. If Anet boosted every class to Mesmer level would exactly do you think would happen? That every PvP game's pipedream of every class having multiple viable specs would finally come true? You don't think that games have tried that before? Here's what would happen, as it DOES happen in virtually every single competitive game that does what you want to do: Anet releases a patch that buffs everything to mesmer level. Oh shit, all of a sudden those viable Mesmer specs aren't that viable anymore, because they don't absolutely destroy other specs anymore. What have you accomplished besides powercreep? Do you honestly think that by boosting all these classes to mesmer level that it would preserve it's build viability? The only reason why it has multiple meta builds is because every single one of them is absolutely, positively, vastly superior to anything from any other class. In a fair balance state everyone will congregate to the strongest build in their class period. And that is the best Anet should hope for.

 

> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>

> **A question for you: What would you rather?**

>

> - Anet pushes out another 9 new elite specs with the expansion and spends another year balancing them. (our current cycle going since HoT drop)

 

**How about they give us 9 new elite specs that aren't blatant powercreeps?** PoF specs were vastly superior to HoT specs all around. That's not a coincidence. **Why don't they actually listen to the community?** Everyone was saying how busted Mesmer was going to be before the patch was released. **Why don't they do smaller, more focused balance patches more often?** Instead of making us wait 3 months for a general balance update, release a hotfix for Mesmer. Problem solved.

 

If they did ANY one of these this problem would be avoided in the first place.

 

> or

> - Anet works on the current specs, providing small to large reworks depending on the class to give them all better build diversity and more defining roles?

>

 

Defining roles? This is a joke right? Mesmer is everything BUT defined. Mirage literally has almost everything. Great offense, top tier sustain in a 1v1, and best mobility in the game all in the same spec.

 

[EpicTurtle.8571]

> @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said:

> > > > > @"Lordrosicky.5813" said:

> > > > > The only way to nerf mesmer is to nerf f1-f4. Anything except this is worthless as their trait lines are so deep in power that any nerfed traits can easily be replaced by an equally OP trait.

> > > >

> > > > Sufficient nerfs would be along the lines of reducing the damage of the utility phantasms and addressing overperforming traits and skills. Shatters do not belong to either of those categories, especially F2-4.

> > >

> > > All those f1-f4 skills are extremely strong. Across the board nerfs to all of them would bring some balance. I would suggest cast times on all those skills to add some counter play. If this is not possible with the skill splits then probably just double the cooldowns of all these skills would be appropriate. Other changes would be needed alongside f1-f4 nerfs though. As these nerfs alone would still leave mesmer too strong.

> >

> > Are you joking? Like actually are you joking?

> >

> > So not only do you want to nerf their effect into irrelevance, you want to add cast times to them and/or completely DOUBLE the cooldown. Of course they'd leave mesmer too strong as those nerfs don't target the actual issues whatsoever.

> >

> > What profession mechanics would you like to nerf next? Give revenants a cast time on switching legends? Give all Engi Toolbelt skills a cast time? Double the cooldown of Guardian F2 and F3?

>

> The profession skills are too good. So they should be nerfed. The F1 in particular is obscenely overpowered.

>

> Blurred frenzy evade up time must be nerfed. F1 must be nerfed. Several traits must be nerfed and greatsword dps must be nerfed. That would be a good starting point. Enough? No chance. But a good emergency nerf until further nerfs can happen

 

This has been top keks, thank you. Let's nerf ele F1-F4 next, it's absurd that they just get 5 skills for each profession skill they have. Next let's nerf Revenant profession mechanics, it's absolutely absurd that they just get 6 utilities, 2 heals and 2 elites all at the same time.

 

I can't remember the last time anyone was up the walls about Cry of Frustration or Diversion tbh. And the only reason people don't like Distortion is because people don't like anything Mesmer related. Are you going to also reduce the evade time of Pistol Whip since it's spammable?? Be more specific than 'several traits' and get off the shatter nerf train of thought because that's not getting through to anyone.