usnedward.9023 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Haleydawn.3764" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > Admitting you follow a religious POV that willingly isolates passages from academic texts that appear to support their claims, while deliberately excluding context and conclusions to the contrary really undermines your whole point. > Wuuuut? lol. Nothing to do with religion as I was making a point. Let's do this another way so I do not offend you with ASSUMED religion. I have an apple and there is a hole in it. One would think instantly it must have been a worm but ignore that it had fallen to the ground and there was a board nearby with a nail poking a little bit out of it. Could be either worm or nail. Take the apple apart to shreds and no worm. Doesn't mean the worm didn't do it. HOWEVER it still amazes me the religious intolerance of people just by your statement alone. But to be clear let's stick to the topic as I am not going to be entertaining religion here as I was trying to make a point that obviously hit a nerve :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach. > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > Wrong. CheatEngine has those terms simply to protect them from legal action against them via game development companies. It's so they can simply say "We told them not to. Sue the guy who broke our policy, not us. We didn't break your game." I'd agree with you, except that you started with 'Wrong'. Doesn't matter that they did it just to protect themselves, Cheat Engine isn't designed for breaking the GW2 ToS because their terms of use forbid using any features that break the GW2 ToS (which when used to interact with GW2 is probably most) -- since users aren't allowed to use those features that break the GW2 ToS, Cheat Engine is basically Notepad as far as interaction with GW2 is concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnedward.9023 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodi.5849 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? Thats simply not true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach. > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > Wrong. CheatEngine has those terms simply to protect them from legal action against them via game development companies. It's so they can simply say "We told them not to. Sue the guy who broke our policy, not us. We didn't break your game." > > I'd agree with you, except that you started with 'Wrong'. Doesn't matter that they did it just to protect themselves, Cheat Engine isn't designed for breaking the GW2 ToS because their terms of use forbid using any features that break the GW2 ToS (which when used to interact with GW2 is probably most) -- since users aren't allowed to use those features that break the GW2 ToS, Cheat Engine is basically Notepad as far as interaction with GW2 is concerned. Again, only for legal reasons for Cheat Engine's defense. As yes, I used the word "wrong," as that is the correct word to utilize in English to describe something that someone has stated as being incorrect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from there forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? Yea, I know. There was a C&D from ESA. I very much do **not** expect that people abide by that ToS, but its convenient for a reason why Cheat Engine is only a tool, and that any ToS violation comes from how the tool gets used. --- > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach. > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > > > Wrong. CheatEngine has those terms simply to protect them from legal action against them via game development companies. It's so they can simply say "We told them not to. Sue the guy who broke our policy, not us. We didn't break your game." > > > > I'd agree with you, except that you started with 'Wrong'. Doesn't matter that they did it just to protect themselves, Cheat Engine isn't designed for breaking the GW2 ToS because their terms of use forbid using any features that break the GW2 ToS (which when used to interact with GW2 is probably most) -- since users aren't allowed to use those features that break the GW2 ToS, Cheat Engine is basically Notepad as far as interaction with GW2 is concerned. > > Again, only for legal reasons for Cheat Engine's defense. > > As yes, I used the word "wrong," as that is the correct word to utilize in English to describe something that someone has stated as being incorrect. Touché. Anyway, point is, they have those ToS in place, regardless of the reason behind them getting them (protecting themselves from legal action). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vai Satriani.2736 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Hmmm so i have Cheat Engine installed on my PC.I have mine installed from 2015(on the day i built my system). I have used it regularly on my single player game,never used it on any online game and GW2. I didn't get banned.So i don't know how people claim that they got banned if they have CE and even though they never use it for GW2. Just my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
usnedward.9023 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > Thats simply not true Where I got my INFO: https://zerolives.com/article/trgskQ6z/major-video-game-publishers-target-memory-scanner-cheat-engine-with-questionable-copyright-infringement-notices (remember...the "official" forums not to be misconstrued for what they did after that. It's a legal thing) Your evidence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > Thats simply not true Yes, clearly that's not true. The makers of CHEAT Engine clearly don't want users using their program for cheating. That's why they named it CHEAT Engine... Because naming it "All-in-one Memory Mapping, Debugging and Hexdecimal" Engine would have been sloppy, and CHEAT Engine clearly tells the user "You shouldn't use this for cheating." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodi.5849 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > > > Thats simply not true > > Where I got my INFO: https://zerolives.com/article/trgskQ6z/major-video-game-publishers-target-memory-scanner-cheat-engine-with-questionable-copyright-infringement-notices (remember...the "official" forums not to be misconstrued for what they did after that. It's a legal thing) > > Your evidence? That was a copyright infringement and both parties came to an agreement. You post no evidence :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Vai Satriani.2736" said: > Hmmm so i have Cheat Engine installed on my PC.I have mine installed from 2015(on the day i built my system). > > I have used it regularly on my single player game,never used it on any online game and GW2. > > I didn't get banned.So i don't know how people claim that they got banned if they have CE and even though they never use it for GW2. > > Just my 2 cents. The claim is that people who have CE running but not in use with GW2 are getting banned (ex: logging in for dailies while a single player game with CE is still going in the background). The checks ANet had for CE just checked if it was running, they didn't do anything to determine what CE was being used for in the data that the GW2 client sent back to ANet, hence the claims (which may or may not be true depending on how much you believe in people being inherently good). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Healix.5819 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > Yes, clearly that's not true. The makers of CHEAT Engine clearly don't want users using their program for cheating. That's why they named it CHEAT Engine... Because naming it "All-in-one Memory Mapping, Debugging and Hexdecimal" Engine would have been sloppy, and CHEAT Engine clearly tells the user "You shouldn't use this for cheating." That's exactly why they did it. CE is not for serious cheating. If it were, it would have never been caught up in this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojar.1495 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > > > > > Thats simply not true > > > > Where I got my INFO: https://zerolives.com/article/trgskQ6z/major-video-game-publishers-target-memory-scanner-cheat-engine-with-questionable-copyright-infringement-notices (remember...the "official" forums not to be misconstrued for what they did after that. It's a legal thing) > > > > Your evidence? > > That was a copyright infringement and both parties came to an agreement. You post no evidence :) > You must be really fun at parties.... CHEAT Engine. CHEAT Engine. You do see it, right? Give you a hint... C. H. E. A. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vai Satriani.2736 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > @"Vai Satriani.2736" said: > > Hmmm so i have Cheat Engine installed on my PC.I have mine installed from 2015(on the day i built my system). > > > > I have used it regularly on my single player game,never used it on any online game and GW2. > > > > I didn't get banned.So i don't know how people claim that they got banned if they have CE and even though they never use it for GW2. > > > > Just my 2 cents. > > The claim is that people who have CE running and in use for a single player game are getting banned (ex: logging in for dailies while the single player game with CE is still going in the background). The checks ANet had for CE just checked if it was running, they didn't do anything to determine what CE was being used for in the data that the GW2 client sent back to ANet, hence the claims (which may or may not be true depending on how much you believe in people being inherently good). Ah i see.I'm glad i never use it that way then. Well all i can say is this. Good luck to you guys who are truly wrongfully(is this a word??english is not my 1st language :P) banned,i hope your appeal goes well. and for the one who really cheated.Good riddance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > > > > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > > > > > > > Thats simply not true > > > > > > Where I got my INFO: https://zerolives.com/article/trgskQ6z/major-video-game-publishers-target-memory-scanner-cheat-engine-with-questionable-copyright-infringement-notices (remember...the "official" forums not to be misconstrued for what they did after that. It's a legal thing) > > > > > > Your evidence? > > > > That was a copyright infringement and both parties came to an agreement. You post no evidence :) > > > > You must be really fun at parties.... > > CHEAT Engine. CHEAT Engine. You do see it, right? Give you a hint... C. H. E. A. T. Creative Handy Ethical Angelic Tool? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodi.5849 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > @"usnedward.9023" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah.... > > > > > > > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules? > > > > > > > > > > > > Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way. > > > > > > > > > > > > Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine. > > > > > > > > > > You do know why cheatengine has a harder ToS? There were many complaints lodged against them for their hacking ability ways and they removed ALL tables and sharing of tables for programs and games from their forums and servers and this is why the legal mumble jumble. It was not always what you seem it to be. So CE forbids you to use features to modify data and you think people will abide by that when they cannot abide by a seemingly simpler ToS from ANET that says DO NOT USE STUFF THAT INTERFERES WITH OUR PROGRAM? > > > > > > > > Thats simply not true > > > > > > Where I got my INFO: https://zerolives.com/article/trgskQ6z/major-video-game-publishers-target-memory-scanner-cheat-engine-with-questionable-copyright-infringement-notices (remember...the "official" forums not to be misconstrued for what they did after that. It's a legal thing) > > > > > > Your evidence? > > > > That was a copyright infringement and both parties came to an agreement. You post no evidence :) > > > > You must be really fun at parties.... > > CHEAT Engine. CHEAT Engine. You do see it, right? Give you a hint... C. H. E. A. T. We have already had this discussion multiple times and you are not really listening or adding anything to it at this point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightlark.4029 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 This was originally going to be a response to a post by @"Shikigami.4013" but that kind turned into more of a twisting the English language debate. If it isn't obvious, my opinion is that CE has enough legitimate uses that on its own, it is not a violation of the GW2 ToS to have it running and using it for another purpose that is unrelated to GW2. I recommend not reading the following if you don't like extreme optimism regarding the good intent of people who make certain tools. If a lawyer wants to analyze the GW2 ToS, I'd be interested in reading whatever analysis they put together regarding how the ToS would hold up in the eyes of the law (USA). Beyond that, I doubt I'll be swayed by further discussion, though I'll probably read responses, but I think this will be my last post in this topic that is mostly "serious". --- > 8© Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game; Cheat Engine is not software related to "the Game", it is a tool that was designed without any regard for this game, and was not designed to change or modify operation of "the Game", therefore it does not fall under 8© since that is specifically calling out software related to "the Game". Cheat Engine is designed to be a more general purpose tool. > 8(d) Use, or provide others with, any “hack,” “cheat,” “exploit” or “mod”; Similar to the point for 8©, Cheat Engine on its own is not a "hack", "cheat", "mod", or "exploit" for GW2, since it is a more general-purpose tool that can be used for good or bad. It is all about how it gets used that would take it from being a tool to something else. That rules out Cheat Engine from violating 8(d) from the ToS, since on its own, Cheat Engine is only a tool that can be used for good purposes like malware analysis -- unless someone specifically decides to use it as a "hack", "cheat", "exploit", or "mod" for any game (interestingly, ANet did not mention GW2 in this part of the ToS, which in means that using a "hack" for Minesweeper would violate the ToS, or any "mod" for a game on Steam Workshop). On its website, Cheat Engine describes itself as a "tool", and as containing a variety of "tools"; it doesn't describes itself as a "cheat", "hack", "exploit", or "mod", other than using the word in its name. > 8(i) Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to: Now we get to 8(i) which is about obtaining data related to the operation of the game -- Cheat Engine can be used to get about the operation of a game as one of its primary functions, however, that section says "use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game", which means that if you are using Cheat Engine for other purposes (including cheating in an unrelated game), you are not using Cheat Engine to "use, obtain or provide data related to the operation of **the Game**", because, well, the data you're getting is from an unrelated game. Cheat Engine doesn't even fall under the first example for section 8(i), which is "software that reads areas of computer memory or storage devices related to the Game" -- while it can definitely read memory, that example is specifically saying areas of computer memory or storage related to **the Game**. So, as long as you don't point Cheat Engine at memory owned by GW2, you have not violated the ToS. Even better, by not attaching Cheat Engine to GW2 to read memory, you are not only within the GW2 ToS, you are also staying within the "ToS" for Cheat Engine! In their FAQ, they state: "No, you may only use cheat engine for legal activities. If the license agreement of a game says to not disassemble it, then do not use ce's disassembler features! (Unless you live in a place like Europe where the law precedes license agreements and where you have the right to reverse engineer all software for personal use)". In this case, I don't think ANet has properly enforced section 8 of their ToS -- they had a check for a tool that was running that does not violate their ToS unless used in a specific manner (ex: just because you have a gun, doesn't mean you need to shoot someone with it), and did not do their due diligence in also having checks to make sure that program was being used in a manner that violates their ToS before banning people. If they did have proper checks, they would have also had a check that sent them information on whether Cheat Engine was attached to the GW2 process or not. And that is why they could have very easily had false positives with some (albeit a very small minority of) innocent people who had Cheat Engine running but not being used with "the Game". Anyway, there's my attempt at analyzing the relevant sections of the ToS, and how Cheat Engine on its own does not violate those sections of the ToS, until you use the tool in a manner that interacts with "the Game" (or as a "cheat" in another game since the wording in 8(d) is very open, though there are still uses for Cheat Engine as a tool that don't violate a very broad interpretation of 8(d)), along with a small thing on how false positives can exist as a result of the checks that ANet added to detect it being lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony.3207 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 Please lock or delete this whole entire thread. 750 posts of useless arguing. The most important thing is that - when you clicked accept on the terms of service - you created a legal binding with anet and in that binding it says.. Anet can ban your account for reasons...or no reasons at all. So this entire thread is useless. Doesn't matter whether you had cheat engine running in the back ground but not using it. anet can ban you for no reason and that's legal the moment you clicked ok to make a legal binding. And even if you're in Europe ....arenet net made special laws for Europe so they wouldn't get in trouble. And after the new law comes in effect you would have to spend thousands of euro to hire 4 good lawyers to fight a large video game company. A useless case for a waste of money. The only thing you'll get is an account band and your 50$ back. Good riddance. Some people are so ignorant it makes me wonder how they survived for so long. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zohane.7208 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Nightlark.4029" said: > --snip-- > > 8© Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game; > Cheat Engine is not software related to "the Game", it is a tool that was designed without any regard for this game, and was not designed to change or modify operation of "the Game", therefore it does not fall under 8© since that is specifically calling out software related to "the Game". Cheat Engine is designed to be a more general purpose tool. > --snip-- > While I don't know any more about CheatEngine than I've read in this thread, it seems to me that it's designed to change or modify operation of *any* program, including GW2-64.exe. Therefore it's at least reasonable to argue that the quoted section of the ToS applies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrizzFreston.5290 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said: > > > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period. > > > > > > > > > > > > end of story. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can > > > > > > > > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation. > > > > > > > > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people. > > > > > > > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2? > > > > > > > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it! > > > > > > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused > > > > Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service. > > > > You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > > > Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent." > >You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :) I find it comical you as a consumer yourself are saying that like it would be a good thing. You should protect your rights not give them up because you like a certain company. Whether right or wrong whether innocent or guilty, ArenaNet can deny you access based on whatever they see fit. They are the ones who instructed the bouncer at the door not to let you in. You have the right to stand and wait at the door and even flash your membership card, but at the end of the day you're not getting in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twoodi.5849 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said: > > > > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > end of story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation. > > > > > > > > > > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people. > > > > > > > > > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2? > > > > > > > > > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it! > > > > > > > > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused > > > > > > Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service. > > > > > > You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > > > > > Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent." > > >You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > > > I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :) I find it comical you as a consumer yourself are saying that like it would be a good thing. You should protect your rights not give them up because you like a certain company. > > Whether right or wrong whether innocent or guilty, ArenaNet can deny you access based on whatever they see fit. They are the ones who instructed the bouncer at the door not to let you in. You have the right to stand and wait at the door and even flash your membership card, but at the end of the day you're not getting in. Yes and i think it's not ethically okay to do that. It also has legal repercussions, companies cannot do whatever they want because their T&C says so. Again why are you so eager to give up your rights as a consumer? Stop pretending you would be perfectly fine with ANET banning your account because they felt like it. > From Chris clearlys AMA on reddit (Guy in charge of anti cheat at arenanet) > My path to game security actually started on the other end with bot and cheat creation for a number of popular online games back in the early 2000s. A hobby turned into a profitable venture that expanded well beyond what I thought it would be originally. Chances are if you wanted to buy something for a popular online action RPG back then you would likely run into my infrastructure at some point. Using your logic the guy in charge of anti-cheat at arenanet (chris cleary) should be banned from the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > @"FrizzFreston.5290" said: > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said: > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said: > > > > > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > end of story. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes you can > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people. > > > > > > > > > > > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2? > > > > > > > > > > > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it! > > > > > > > > > > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused > > > > > > > > Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service. > > > > > > > > You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > > > > > > > Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent." > > > >You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you. > > > > > > I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :) I find it comical you as a consumer yourself are saying that like it would be a good thing. You should protect your rights not give them up because you like a certain company. > > > > Whether right or wrong whether innocent or guilty, ArenaNet can deny you access based on whatever they see fit. They are the ones who instructed the bouncer at the door not to let you in. You have the right to stand and wait at the door and even flash your membership card, but at the end of the day you're not getting in. > > Yes and i think it's not ethically okay to do that. It also has legal repercussions, companies cannot do whatever they want because their T&C says so. Again why are you so eager to give up your rights as a consumer? > > Stop pretending you would be perfectly fine with ANET banning your account because they felt like it. > > > > > > From Chris clearlys AMA on reddit (Guy in charge of anti cheat at arenanet) > > My path to game security actually started on the other end with bot and cheat creation for a number of popular online games back in the early 2000s. A hobby turned into a profitable venture that expanded well beyond what I thought it would be originally. Chances are if you wanted to buy something for a popular online action RPG back then you would likely run into my infrastructure at some point. > > Using your logic the guy in charge of being against cheaters should be banned from the game So if you decided hacking would be fine so all consumers can keep their rights then they agreed on a contract and so you know minute you are online your privacy is non existant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Anthony.3207" said: > Please lock or delete this whole entire thread. > > 750 posts of useless arguing. > > The most important thing is that - when you clicked accept on the terms of service - you created a legal binding with anet and in that binding it says.. > > Anet can ban your account for reasons...or no reasons at all. > > So this entire thread is useless. Doesn't matter whether you had cheat engine running in the back ground but not using it. anet can ban you for no reason and that's legal the moment you clicked ok to make a legal binding. > > And even if you're in Europe ....arenet net made special laws for Europe so they wouldn't get in trouble. > > And after the new law comes in effect you would have to spend thousands of euro to hire 4 good lawyers to fight a large video game company. A useless case for a waste of money. The only thing you'll get is an account band and your 50$ back. > > Good riddance. Some people are so ignorant it makes me wonder how they survived for so long. A large portion of those posts is related to the gather and storing of information from those that has not been suspended or been accused of any wrong doing. Anet has now stored information about who has backdoors installed on their computers, who got bank software, or is running company software along side with guild wars 2. This kind of information is likely not going to cause any harm in Anets hand but if they got hacked and it leaked, then what? Who is responsible for any fallout if that information get into the wrong hands? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ratche.6204 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"BolkovonHarnfeldt.1372" said: > > @"ratche.6204" said: > > > @"Nezekan.2671" said: > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jerks.3172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jerks.3172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jerks.3172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jerks.3172" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If ANet was sloppy, then those players running any cheat program while playing an MMO were equally as sloppy. Either way you slice it, caught is caught and hardly makes those players innocent. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody has argued otherwise, but until after they were suspended they were not told or aware that you were not allowed to run cheat engine at the time as guild wars 2. Nobody was caught doing anything wrong because cheat engine is not inherently bad > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, that's not even close to correct. Anyone that plays this game agrees to the terms and it's pretty clear 3rd party software is not allowed. They don't need to be told more than that; there is an expectation for a level of maturity and responsibility on the players part to understand what rules, restrictions and limits are involved when they sign up for this game service. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're mindset is irresponsible ... so if you aren't caught doing something, it's not wrong? I can see you have very little reason to be listened to at this point. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If i recall how to use cheat engine, you had to inject it into a program before it can do anything. If its a program that can potentially cheat but they haven't got any evidence on the player cheating they need to just flag the account and do further investigation not ban with no remorse. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You almost make it sound like Anet doesn't own the accounts that they took action on and need to PROVE to the player why they were banned. That's amusing to say the least. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I mean, what further investigation do you think should be done ... have a bunch of Anet employees sit around and watch the account in question play the game and hope they cheat? You do realize that's highly impractical no? All these calls for 'further investigation' makes it sound like you think the outcome woudl be different? makes it sound like you even have a clue of what they did and didn't do ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Except you don't. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It's called hiring GM's with invisible mode on and watch the suspected players. Games like WoW, and many other do this why cant Anet do it? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Because they're busy creating content for a very hungry community desperate for it? The ironic part is I had a GM watch me solo a champion in the core game years ago before any expansion. I have no doubt players reported me for hacking because I repeatedly soloed the champion for loot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Exchange went like this: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GM: How's it going? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me: Good. You? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GM: Good. Mind if I watch you? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Me: No worries. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Five minutes later. . . . > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > GM: Have a nice day. ;) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But, seriously, you can't expect GMs to watch all people all the time. It's just not effective. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is a prime example of a GM wasting their time. I'm not saying GM should watch all players. Just players that are flagged for suspicion of hacking. They should NEVER reveal they are watching you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Um . . . you asked for GMs to do this, and then you say they're wasting time doing it. So . . . which one is it now? Besides, that wasn't the point of me telling you that story. :) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm asking GM's to investigate flagged accounts not showing up and go "Mind if i watch you" Of course people will either log off or stop cheating completely if they had a GM show up. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My account was flagged, the GM watched me while invisible, then he announced himself to see if my behavior would change . . . and it didn't. He did exactly what you're asking them to do. Let's not rewrite history. You asked for GMs to _watch_ players for suspicious activity. Done and done. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Doesn't get clearer than that as far as what you're asking. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes but in this case they didn't and that is why people are complaining > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Really? You expected a nice personal greeting from a GM asking you if it would be OK for you stop cheating? Obviously, that 'personal touch' wasn't a very practical approach in this situation, so expecting it was a little silly. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No i want ANET to do what they usually do which is investigate accounts that are flagged individually and gather evidence > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You have no idea if they didn't do that. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Yes we do and i have quoted them many times admitting so > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1516 accounts were suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs > > > > > > > > > > > > That doesn't say how they did it. You simply don't know. You're whole argument for not being banned is based on the fact that you don't know the details of how people were caught. BRILLIANT! GL with that appeal. Personally I don't think that's going to get you very far because frankly, it's not very relevant. I doesn't matter. There is no due process here; this isn't an episode of 'Law and Order'. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have some way, people were detected, DONE. > > > > > > > > > > Yes we know this as they admitted > > > > > > 1516 accounts were suspended because we detected that the accounts were running Guild Wars 2 at the same time as one or more of the following programs > > > > > > > > > > ANETs customer service is usually fair in most cases and they will actually evaluate peoples accounts and look into them when they are appealing bans. Something that ANET should actually do before banning people and not ban them based on assumptions which is what people like myself are complaining about. That and the fact at first they originally said nobody would be allowed to appeal their bans something that they backtracked on. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nobody is asking for a free pass, people who know they are innocent just want a fair chance and to have a GM look into their accounts individually. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Saying "well they can do what they want its their game" is not very useful and i'm not sure why fellow consumers are throwing away their rights to defend a company. > > > > > > > > > > Either way i hope you all enjoy the rest of your weekend > > > > > > > > I don't see how that's an 'admission' of not having data, proof or evidence of the violation. The violation is running 3rd party software ... they detected it. I'm not sure how it's more complicated than that. > > > > > > Cheat engine is NOT a cheating program despite the name, it can be used for many other things. You can create viruses with notepad, why people who had a notepad open are not banned? You can hack GW2 servers with coding programs, why are those not banned? They are even more dangerous than any cheating tool. > > > > > > Cheat engine is a modding tool for people who use it on single player games. Its free, its flexible and very easy to learn. Instead of constantly visiting sites like Nexus to get mods, and sometimes not even finding what you are looking for, you can change your game however you like. NOT A SINGLE COMPANY who produces single player games has a problem with this and none even try to protect their game against it. The most prominent use of it is probably Dragon Age Inquisition in witch people even used it to fix bugs. > > > > "Cheat engine is not a cheating program" > > > > You do realize how silly that sounds right? > > > > "Guild Wars" is a game in which wars between guilds don't really take place. > You do realize how silly that sounds, right? ;) Actually if you know game lore, it's not really silly at all, or the same thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belorn.2659 Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 > @"Shikigami.4013" said: > > @"Belorn.2659" said: > > > @"Anthony.7630" said: > > > Your worried about a mmo video game called guild wars 2 is spying on your computer ? > > > Spying is everywhere man. Cortana from windows 10 spies on you. So does avast antivirus and other anti viruse softwares. Also google chrome tracks all your search engines on your android or your computers. > > > > > > Android phones are not any better than iphones. Both apple and google / and even amazon take all your information and spy on you. > > > > > > Also email accounts track your messages and know what you're doing sending and searching / buying. > > > > > > The best way to be untrackable is to move to africa and use no technologies and stay away from governments and authorities. Oh and your ID tag for being a citizen tracks you. > > > > > > That's what is happening in 2018. The modernization and global collection / tracking of human data. > > > > And this is good and we should celebrate that a game developer do this, because...? > > > > There is a lot of bad things happening in the world. I would prefer that a game company avoid doing harm when there is no reason to do it and a very easy solution to do harm reduction. Do not store data that is not related to the cheat tools. Delete it any unrelated data that got caught by the spyware code. Reassure your players that information won't be suddenly leaked because the data is permanently deleted. > > They don't even know who you are. How would they leak anything that could harm you if they have no personal info about you anyway? All purchases are handled by DigitalRiver, which is a company that is not connected to ArenaNet in any other way than handling the commercial transactions for them. ArenaNet knows that you are Belorn.2659 and an email address you used to sign up (which is probably hosted anonymously because people concerned that much about their privacy would likely not use an email that is publicly tied to their realworld identity). When you purchase something, DigitalRiver handles your data and just notifies ArenaNet in an automated process if the payment was successful or not. They do not send your 20 Dollar to ArenaNet with a note attached saying "These 20 dollar come from John Doe, age 22, living in randomstreet 123, randomtown who used the credit card with the numer 1234-4321-1234-4321 to pay. > > Is a gameaccount name and the name of a process found running on your pc too much information for your taste so that you fear you could be "harmed" if the hypothetical fact that Belorn.2659 used a program called cheat engine on his PC in march 2018, would leak to the internet? Maybe you could tell us what exactly you are afraid of that could happen. If they only store the information about cheat engine and those program listed then we don't have a problem. If they are storing IP addresses along side which machine has banking software installed, or has backdoors running, or has company specific control software, then guess who would be very interesting to have that leaked so that those users can be targeted explicitly. Even better, have the email address attached so they can launch some spearfish spam emails, like those that Anet themselves accidentally clicked on a few years ago. Imagine that you got access to a list of all Google, Apple and Microsoft employees who happen to run gw2 on their work machine, together with their complete process list. I am sure that no such computer will have old software with know bugs in them that is just waiting to be exploited. The easiest test to see if this information is sensitive is just ask anet developers to publish the same information about their own computers. I would eat my hat if their security staff would allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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