Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Shikigami.4013]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > @"Shikigami.4013" said:

> > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > Great, so you'd be fine if ANet just banned you for having a web browser tab open with a news article whose headline says "big company got **HACKED** and lost a bunch of user data", because the window title has the word "hack" in it.

> >

> > We can talk about that when it happens. But it will not. Because all those hypothetical scenarios of what horrible things might happen to completely innocent people are nonsense.

> >

> >

> Except that those hypothetical scenarios of what horrible things might happen to completely innocent people are not nonsense, because they happened to some of the people that had Cheat Engine open. It is a tool with many features, yes typically used for cheating (its developers don't endorse use in multiplayer games, only single player games), but like all tools, it also legitimate business purposes. The way ANet detected Cheat Engine was the equivalent of banning based on you having a browser tab open with the word "hack" in it. Sure, you could have had that browser tab open to learn how to "hack" a game like Guild Wars, but there are thousands of other reasons why that browser tab could have been open.

>

> Also, a lot of people have a tendency (myself included), to leave light-weight programs open in the background for long periods of time, even when not actively using them. Combine the legitimate uses for Cheat Engine (or any debugger) with that tendency, and you have false positives.

 

You and others can argue as much as they want, because there is always a correct and logical explanation of why you are wrong, while you and others come up with more and more hypothetical stuff that is meaningless. ArenaNet disallows the usage of software which can be used to cheat. I am tired of constantly searching this whole thread for the posts where things were already proven/explained, but the section of the user agreement or ToS that said you may not use software that can be used to modify the game was already posted. Yes, it says you are not allowed to run software that CAN do it, not you are not allowed to actually use that software to do it. So all people caught running cheat engine while playing GW2 are not innocent because innocence means not having done something against the rules. Running cheat engine is against the rules, they did run cheat engine, they were accused of running cheat engine. End of story, no false positive because people are guilty of what you were accused of.

 

ArenaNet does not disallow reading any webpages, no matter what their title or content may be. I could read cheater forums (like some people already admitted doing) and I will still be innocent, because reading any webpage will never be against ArenaNet's rules.

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > People stating that cheatengine is not a "cheating" tool is incorrect. You use to read memory AND you can change that memory if you know what are you doing on the client side amongst other uses. It's not an easy process but a process none the less that COULD be used to modify the client side in memory. So like you stated, if people have it they are most undoubtedly cheating. There is no purpose to run it if you are not using it.

> Uh... you obviously aren't in the field of computer security. Other uses for Cheat Engine that aren't cheating are a debugger for figuring out why a program is broken, and seeing what malware is doing.

>

> I don't think I need to point out that your last 2 lines are false -- however, even if you are using it for cheating, you could be using it to cheat in a single player game and never use it to cheat in GW2. Again, the check ANet did for simply seeing if Cheat Engine was running is overly broad -- at minimum they should have included a check to see if an open handle to GW2 was being used by Cheat Engine.

 

You are correct that the program is used for legit purposes. You are lying to yourself if you do not believe that it can be used to create cheats in GW2. I do not use it and can only speak on the research I have done since this topic became hot and past use like many years ago for stupid PC games. Doesn't necessarily have to be cheating live but used to create a cheat via a program or dll. Speed hacks, teleport hacks and things of this nature could be a reason it is included. . If there were no way to cheat with it in GW2 then why is it a listed program..... You don't think their devs are smart enough to know or not know this? Here is some info and note I am suggesting CLIENT side only:

 

(Psst.... I have an idea...go try it on your account and let us know ;) )

**_Usie of cheatengine in 99.9% of the newer MMOs out today, you wont be able to hack things like your stats (HP, MP, Strength, Agility, etc.) as they are all handled server sided.

 

There are other things that sometimes land up being unsynced from the server/client because it is too much on the server to handle. Stuff such as your characters position (x,y,z), movement speed, and such. All in all it depends on the MMO itself, each have their code different than another, so you may be able to hack your stats on one, but not another.

 

For example, putting a popular MMO into perspective, World of Warcraft; you can:

- Edit / alter your characters position X/Y/Z

- Edit / alter your characters speed.

- Edit / alter your characters animation state, (swim anywhere etc.)

 

And so on. Just think outside of the box when you start looking for things. _**

_________________

[Nightlark.4029]

> @"Shikigami.4013" said:

> You and others can argue as much as they want, because there is always a correct and logical explanation of why you are wrong, while you and others come up with more and more hypothetical stuff that is meaningless. ArenaNet disallows the usage of software which can be used to cheat. I am tired of constantly searching this whole thread for the posts where things were already proven/explained, but the section of the user agreement or ToS that said you may not use software that can be used to modify the game was already posted. Yes, it says you are not allowed to run software that CAN do it, not you are not allowed to actually use that software to do it. So all people caught running cheat engine while playing GW2 are not innocent because innocence means not having done something against the rules. Running cheat engine is against the rules, they did run cheat engine, they were accused of running cheat engine. End of story, no false positive because people are guilty of what you were accused of.

 

The ToS says you are not allowed to **use** software -- you're obviously interpreting use in the broadest possible sense of running the software. However, the ToS states things like: "Use, or provide others with, any software related to the Game, including any automation software (a.k.a. “bot”) or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game". If you're running Cheat Engine for a purpose other than cheating in GW2, then it is pretty obvious that Cheat Engine does not relate to "the Game", which is what the ToS is forbidding. As a further point for Cheat Engine (being used for other purposes) being outside the scope of the ToS, keep in mind that this is the ToS for GW2/ArenaNet -- if the software isn't interacting with "the Game" (GW2) in any way, that pretty clearly should not be considered a ToS violation.

 

> ArenaNet does not disallow reading any webpages, no matter what their title or content may be. I could read cheater forums (like some people already admitted doing) and I will still be innocent, because reading any webpage will never be against ArenaNet's rules.

Except that there is section 8(i) in the ToS! That section states that you may not "Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to..." -- therefore, you would be in violation of the ToS and could be banned. In fact, by reading any of the posts that talk about the hashing of processes and modules, you are obtaining data related to the operation of the Game and are in violation of their ToS.

 

Then again I'm not a lawyer and neither are you, so maybe we should just agree to disagree on this -- I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will change your opinion that anything ArenaNet puts in the ToS goes with the strictest possible interpretation.

 

---

 

Edit to reply to the other post:

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > People stating that cheatengine is not a "cheating" tool is incorrect. You use to read memory AND you can change that memory if you know what are you doing on the client side amongst other uses. It's not an easy process but a process none the less that COULD be used to modify the client side in memory. So like you stated, if people have it they are most undoubtedly cheating. There is no purpose to run it if you are not using it.

> > Uh... you obviously aren't in the field of computer security. Other uses for Cheat Engine that aren't cheating are a debugger for figuring out why a program is broken, and seeing what malware is doing.

> >

> > I don't think I need to point out that your last 2 lines are false -- however, even if you are using it for cheating, you could be using it to cheat in a single player game and never use it to cheat in GW2. Again, the check ANet did for simply seeing if Cheat Engine was running is overly broad -- at minimum they should have included a check to see if an open handle to GW2 was being used by Cheat Engine.

>

> You are correct that the program is used for legit purposes. You are lying to yourself if you do not believe that it can be used to create cheats in GW2. I do not use it and can only speak on the research I have done since this topic became hot and past use like many years ago for stupid PC games. Doesn't necessarily have to be cheating live but used to create a cheat via a program or dll. Speed hacks, teleport hacks and things of this nature could be a reason it is included. . If there were no way to cheat with it in GW2 then why is it a listed program..... You don't think their devs are smart enough to know or not know this? Here is some info and note I am suggesting CLIENT side only:

>

> (Psst.... I have an idea...go try it on your account and let us know ;) )

> **_Usie of cheatengine in 99.9% of the newer MMOs out today, you wont be able to hack things like your stats (HP, MP, Strength, Agility, etc.) as they are all handled server sided.

>

> There are other things that sometimes land up being unsynced from the server/client because it is too much on the server to handle. Stuff such as your characters position (x,y,z), movement speed, and such. All in all it depends on the MMO itself, each have their code different than another, so you may be able to hack your stats on one, but not another.

>

> For example, putting a popular MMO into perspective, World of Warcraft; you can:

> - Edit / alter your characters position X/Y/Z

> - Edit / alter your characters speed.

> - Edit / alter your characters animation state, (swim anywhere etc.)

>

> And so on. Just think outside of the box when you start looking for things. _**

> _________________

 

I'm very much aware that it is still possible create cheats with it in GW2, despite the server being authoritative over many things. I don't need a lecture on what is possible, I've contributed to some of the 3rd party mods that are out there (that either fell under the approved category, or that ceased development upon request). From the way their devs implemented the check for Cheat Engine, they are not smart enough -- they should have had a check to see if GW2 was open in Cheat Engine rather than the far-reaching check for Cheat Engine as a running process -- and as for not cheating live, sure, but someone could be using Visual Studio to create a cheat via a program or dll. The simple fact that Cheat Engine is running is not proof of using it to cheat for GW2.

 

 

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

>

> or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game".

 

Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah....

Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol

 

 

 

[Nightlark.4029]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> >

> > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game".

>

> Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah....

> Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol

>

But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything).

[Shikigami.4013]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > ArenaNet does not disallow reading any webpages, no matter what their title or content may be. I could read cheater forums (like some people already admitted doing) and I will still be innocent, because reading any webpage will never be against ArenaNet's rules.

> Except that there is section 8(i) in the ToS! That section states that you may not "Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to..." -- therefore, you would be in violation of the ToS and could be banned. In fact, by reading any of the posts that talk about the hashing of processes and modules, you are obtaining data related to the operation of the Game and are in violation of their ToS.

>

> Then again I'm not a lawyer and neither are you, so maybe we should just agree to disagree on this -- I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will change your opinion that anything ArenaNet puts in the ToS goes with the strictest possible interpretation.

>

You do not need to be a lawyer to understand that "data related to operation of the Game" is data that the game uses to function, not "data" (information) that someone posts on the internet to tell people how the game works. It is just one more of your hypothetical and unrealistic scenarios, where you twist words to reach the horrible outcome that you are so fond of: Poor innocent people being in danger because of evil ArenaNet.

 

No, I am not breaching the ToS by reading an article someone wrote about how something works. "Data related to the operation of the game" very obviously means data that the GW2 client uses to run on your PC, which is why all of the "including but not limited to" points very clearly refer to game client data and communication with the game servers, memory used by the game client or methods to interact with the game client or the game servers. Just because it is not limited to the very specific points mentioned, it is still limited to the general area of "Data related to the operation of the game" which does not include what Joe Schmnoe may post on a webpage.

 

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Shikigami.4013" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > ArenaNet does not disallow reading any webpages, no matter what their title or content may be. I could read cheater forums (like some people already admitted doing) and I will still be innocent, because reading any webpage will never be against ArenaNet's rules.

> > Except that there is section 8(i) in the ToS! That section states that you may not "Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to..." -- therefore, you would be in violation of the ToS and could be banned. In fact, by reading any of the posts that talk about the hashing of processes and modules, you are obtaining data related to the operation of the Game and are in violation of their ToS.

> >

> > Then again I'm not a lawyer and neither are you, so maybe we should just agree to disagree on this -- I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will change your opinion that anything ArenaNet puts in the ToS goes with the strictest possible interpretation.

> >

> You do not need to be a lawyer to understand that "data related to operation of the Game" is data that the game uses to function, not "data" (information) that someone posts on the internet to tell people how the game works. It is just one more of your hypothetical and unrealistic scenarios, where you twist words to reach the horrible outcome that you are so fond of: Poor innocent people being in danger because of evil ArenaNet.

>

> No, I am not breaching the ToS by reading an article someone wrote about how something works. "Data related to the operation of the game" very obviously means data that the GW2 client uses to run on your PC, which is why all of the "including but not limited to" points very clearly refer to game client data and communication with the game servers, memory used by the game client or methods to interact with the game client or the game servers. Just because it is not limited to the very specific points mentioned, it is still limited to the general area of "Data related to the operation of the game" which does not include what Joe Schmnoe may post on a webpage.

>

 

Information is data.

Information about the game and its operation is related to the game.

Reading information is obtaining the data it represents.

 

In the English language reading information about something's operation is obtaining data related to its operation.

 

If your contention is that ANet is using a language other than English, which merely resembles English, then OK. Otherwise, you are mistaken.

[Sojourner.4621]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No they installed spyware on March 6th and removed it on March 27th on all our computers.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You need to do your research and come back when you understand the entire situation

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It was not spyware, it was only checking processes running along with GW2. It scanned for nothing more. It collected no personal information, no location data, no passwords. It is not tracking what web sites you went too. Many MMO's run programs like this to check for cheats and hacks.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No it opened each file and read it then sent it back to Anet servers.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > That is the definition of spyware

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Read the link to the reddit post

> > > > > > > > Read it, yes.

> > > > > > > > It sends a list of hashed values, a hash is destructive and you can't get the original content back.

> > > > > > > > No "private" information, just a guess of what processes were used, which is required to detect a list of software they don't want you to use.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Stop posting misinformation

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > They will then go through all processes and get their file names. Those file names are then fed into the very same hash function as before at 0x6F4E90, which will open the respective files, read all their content, create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash, which are then, again, stored in a list for later use.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivially to reverse

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Do you even read what you post?

> > > > > > "create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash"

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Seriously.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivial to reverse

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > A hash IS destructive, you will NOT get the value back. If you believe that I really hope you're not working in any job related with IT.

> > > > Encryption, compression, now you get the stuff back, but those are different things.

> > > >

> > > > Now, yes, they need the hash of "cheat engine" so that they can compare it with their own hash of "Cheat Engine" and conclude you are using it. That's why it's possible to figure out what processes are running. That's the whole point of this process, that they can detect if you're using something they don't want you to be using.

> > >

> > > Yes they are but they were unsalted which means you can still match it to databases and see what program it was and sending all that info across the internet is not okay. Hence why blizzards and others use a local database on the users system. It's a lazy "anti-cheat" considering its trivial to compile your own version, something as small as a 1 byte difference means it wont be detected.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > It is getting old. A method that catches 90% of the cheaters is still better than nothing. Salting this kind of information would be a waste of CPU time and energy.

>

> For you maybe ethically/morally but i prefer a system where 0 innocent people get punished.

>

> Like i said for the other programs that were created purely to cheat in GW2, sure they had no legitimate reason to be running those programs. But with Cheat engine the world isn't so black and white and as far as i am aware it's impossible to use it to cheat in GW2 as cheat engine cannot edit server side data.

>

> The official cheat engine forums themselves don't even allow users to post tables/tutorials for multiplayer games.

>

>

 

That doesn't mean it isn't possible... GW2 relies heavily on the CLIENT side instance for things like positional data in order to combat latency, particularly for things that require split second timing like activating your glider just before you hit the ground. That means that the common "teleport hack" (there are also examples of it being used as a flying hack) can be done by using cheat engine to adjust the positional data that is being sent to the GW2 servers, causing your character to move to places that would otherwise not be possible. Most things are strictly server side, in particular actual character and inventory data, but positional data is largely client side. Cheat Engine can be and is used to manipulate this data before it is sent out (You can actually find examples on youtube of people doing this FOR GW2).

[Shikigami.4013]

> @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > @"Shikigami.4013" said:

> > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > > ArenaNet does not disallow reading any webpages, no matter what their title or content may be. I could read cheater forums (like some people already admitted doing) and I will still be innocent, because reading any webpage will never be against ArenaNet's rules.

> > > Except that there is section 8(i) in the ToS! That section states that you may not "Use, obtain or provide data related to operation of the Game, including but not limited to..." -- therefore, you would be in violation of the ToS and could be banned. In fact, by reading any of the posts that talk about the hashing of processes and modules, you are obtaining data related to the operation of the Game and are in violation of their ToS.

> > >

> > > Then again I'm not a lawyer and neither are you, so maybe we should just agree to disagree on this -- I'm pretty sure nothing I can say will change your opinion that anything ArenaNet puts in the ToS goes with the strictest possible interpretation.

> > >

> > You do not need to be a lawyer to understand that "data related to operation of the Game" is data that the game uses to function, not "data" (information) that someone posts on the internet to tell people how the game works. It is just one more of your hypothetical and unrealistic scenarios, where you twist words to reach the horrible outcome that you are so fond of: Poor innocent people being in danger because of evil ArenaNet.

> >

> > No, I am not breaching the ToS by reading an article someone wrote about how something works. "Data related to the operation of the game" very obviously means data that the GW2 client uses to run on your PC, which is why all of the "including but not limited to" points very clearly refer to game client data and communication with the game servers, memory used by the game client or methods to interact with the game client or the game servers. Just because it is not limited to the very specific points mentioned, it is still limited to the general area of "Data related to the operation of the game" which does not include what Joe Schmnoe may post on a webpage.

> >

>

> Information is data.

> Information about the game and its operation is related to the game.

> Reading information is obtaining the data it represents.

>

> In the English language reading information about something's operation is obtaining data related to its operation.

>

> If your contention is that ANet is using a language other than English, which merely resembles English, then OK. Otherwise, you are mistaken.

 

You can twist the meaning of "data", "related" and "obtaining" all you want but it will be just another person creating a scenario that does not exist. The section of the ToS was not made to forbid people to read webpages, but to forbid them the obtaining of data that is related to the operation of the game client like the contents of your PCs memory or the data that the game clients sends and receives to/from game servers. Common sense is required to understand this, twisting words can fool fools, not people with common sense.

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No they installed spyware on March 6th and removed it on March 27th on all our computers.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You need to do your research and come back when you understand the entire situation

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It was not spyware, it was only checking processes running along with GW2. It scanned for nothing more. It collected no personal information, no location data, no passwords. It is not tracking what web sites you went too. Many MMO's run programs like this to check for cheats and hacks.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No it opened each file and read it then sent it back to Anet servers.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That is the definition of spyware

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Read the link to the reddit post

> > > > > > > > > Read it, yes.

> > > > > > > > > It sends a list of hashed values, a hash is destructive and you can't get the original content back.

> > > > > > > > > No "private" information, just a guess of what processes were used, which is required to detect a list of software they don't want you to use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stop posting misinformation

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They will then go through all processes and get their file names. Those file names are then fed into the very same hash function as before at 0x6F4E90, which will open the respective files, read all their content, create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash, which are then, again, stored in a list for later use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivially to reverse

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you even read what you post?

> > > > > > > "create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Seriously.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivial to reverse

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > A hash IS destructive, you will NOT get the value back. If you believe that I really hope you're not working in any job related with IT.

> > > > > Encryption, compression, now you get the stuff back, but those are different things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, yes, they need the hash of "cheat engine" so that they can compare it with their own hash of "Cheat Engine" and conclude you are using it. That's why it's possible to figure out what processes are running. That's the whole point of this process, that they can detect if you're using something they don't want you to be using.

> > > >

> > > > Yes they are but they were unsalted which means you can still match it to databases and see what program it was and sending all that info across the internet is not okay. Hence why blizzards and others use a local database on the users system. It's a lazy "anti-cheat" considering its trivial to compile your own version, something as small as a 1 byte difference means it wont be detected.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > It is getting old. A method that catches 90% of the cheaters is still better than nothing. Salting this kind of information would be a waste of CPU time and energy.

> > Generating the list of hashes repeatedly is the thing that is a waste of CPU time and energy. Adding a salt would be such a small amount of additional overhead that it might as well be unmeasurable. Sure, catching 90% of the cheaters is good, but not when you have a significant number of false positives and refuse to overturn them with appeals.

>

> But there are no false positives. If you cheat in one game you are prone to cheating and should be kept out of online games.

> Also the hashing is nothing to a modern CPU, so if it happens let's say every 5min or so it will cosnume like 0.01% of your CPU time.

> I just run a benchmark and my CPU can handle hashing 11.7 GB data per second of simple algorithms like MD5.

> Even the most complex algorithms my benchmark tool has still reach 1 GB of data hashed per second.

 

As someone that has learned how to program stuff WITHOUT wasting resources, Im very aware how to go about something like this in an efficient way. The person that wrote that snippet of code didnt.

 

As to your generalization about cheaters and how they should all be punished without proven guilty (no matter if they actually cheated or not). How does Anet even know that someone cheats in another game? Because a debugger is opened and a game is running? Conjecture! That would also make everyone running the majority of mouse software a macro-user.

 

You got a c/++/# compiler running on your system? Fishy, could be you are writing a cheat -> suspended

You got mouse software installed? Shady, could be used to create macros -> suspended

You got an autoit or ahk script running? Suspect, could be used to cheat OR for macroing -> banned

You use VMware? Suspicious, you obviously have something to hide -> banned

You got wireshark installed? Obviously you are trying to reverse engineer network traffic -> banned

You searched the internet for cheating? Well, you are practically proven guilty already -> banned

 

All those things have one thing in common: conjecture. And thats exactly what Anet did there with CheatEngine. And what you do when agreeing with Anets methods.

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No they installed spyware on March 6th and removed it on March 27th on all our computers.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You need to do your research and come back when you understand the entire situation

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It was not spyware, it was only checking processes running along with GW2. It scanned for nothing more. It collected no personal information, no location data, no passwords. It is not tracking what web sites you went too. Many MMO's run programs like this to check for cheats and hacks.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No it opened each file and read it then sent it back to Anet servers.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That is the definition of spyware

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Read the link to the reddit post

> > > > > > > > > Read it, yes.

> > > > > > > > > It sends a list of hashed values, a hash is destructive and you can't get the original content back.

> > > > > > > > > No "private" information, just a guess of what processes were used, which is required to detect a list of software they don't want you to use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stop posting misinformation

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They will then go through all processes and get their file names. Those file names are then fed into the very same hash function as before at 0x6F4E90, which will open the respective files, read all their content, create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash, which are then, again, stored in a list for later use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivially to reverse

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you even read what you post?

> > > > > > > "create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Seriously.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivial to reverse

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > A hash IS destructive, you will NOT get the value back. If you believe that I really hope you're not working in any job related with IT.

> > > > > Encryption, compression, now you get the stuff back, but those are different things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, yes, they need the hash of "cheat engine" so that they can compare it with their own hash of "Cheat Engine" and conclude you are using it. That's why it's possible to figure out what processes are running. That's the whole point of this process, that they can detect if you're using something they don't want you to be using.

> > > >

> > > > Yes they are but they were unsalted which means you can still match it to databases and see what program it was and sending all that info across the internet is not okay. Hence why blizzards and others use a local database on the users system. It's a lazy "anti-cheat" considering its trivial to compile your own version, something as small as a 1 byte difference means it wont be detected.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > It is getting old. A method that catches 90% of the cheaters is still better than nothing. Salting this kind of information would be a waste of CPU time and energy.

> >

> > For you maybe ethically/morally but i prefer a system where 0 innocent people get punished.

> >

> > Like i said for the other programs that were created purely to cheat in GW2, sure they had no legitimate reason to be running those programs. But with Cheat engine the world isn't so black and white and as far as i am aware it's impossible to use it to cheat in GW2 as cheat engine cannot edit server side data.

> >

> > The official cheat engine forums themselves don't even allow users to post tables/tutorials for multiplayer games.

> >

> >

>

> That doesn't mean it isn't possible... GW2 relies heavily on the CLIENT side instance for things like positional data in order to combat latency, particularly for things that require split second timing like activating your glider just before you hit the ground. That means that the common "teleport hack" (there are also examples of it being used as a flying hack) can be done by using cheat engine to adjust the positional data that is being sent to the GW2 servers, causing your character to move to places that would otherwise not be possible. Most things are strictly server side, in particular actual character and inventory data, but positional data is largely client side. Cheat Engine can be and is used to manipulate this data before it is sent out (You can actually find examples on youtube of people doing this FOR GW2).

 

Those videos are fake.

 

Again it would've been very easy for ANET to detect if cheat engine was being used maliciously with GW2. They didn't bother doing this and still have no evidence people were using it maliciously.

 

> I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

 

 

[Yasi.9065]

> @"Sojourner.4621" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No they installed spyware on March 6th and removed it on March 27th on all our computers.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You need to do your research and come back when you understand the entire situation

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It was not spyware, it was only checking processes running along with GW2. It scanned for nothing more. It collected no personal information, no location data, no passwords. It is not tracking what web sites you went too. Many MMO's run programs like this to check for cheats and hacks.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No it opened each file and read it then sent it back to Anet servers.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > That is the definition of spyware

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Read the link to the reddit post

> > > > > > > > > Read it, yes.

> > > > > > > > > It sends a list of hashed values, a hash is destructive and you can't get the original content back.

> > > > > > > > > No "private" information, just a guess of what processes were used, which is required to detect a list of software they don't want you to use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stop posting misinformation

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > They will then go through all processes and get their file names. Those file names are then fed into the very same hash function as before at 0x6F4E90, which will open the respective files, read all their content, create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash, which are then, again, stored in a list for later use.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivially to reverse

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Do you even read what you post?

> > > > > > > "create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash"

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Seriously.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivial to reverse

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > A hash IS destructive, you will NOT get the value back. If you believe that I really hope you're not working in any job related with IT.

> > > > > Encryption, compression, now you get the stuff back, but those are different things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Now, yes, they need the hash of "cheat engine" so that they can compare it with their own hash of "Cheat Engine" and conclude you are using it. That's why it's possible to figure out what processes are running. That's the whole point of this process, that they can detect if you're using something they don't want you to be using.

> > > >

> > > > Yes they are but they were unsalted which means you can still match it to databases and see what program it was and sending all that info across the internet is not okay. Hence why blizzards and others use a local database on the users system. It's a lazy "anti-cheat" considering its trivial to compile your own version, something as small as a 1 byte difference means it wont be detected.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > It is getting old. A method that catches 90% of the cheaters is still better than nothing. Salting this kind of information would be a waste of CPU time and energy.

> >

> > For you maybe ethically/morally but i prefer a system where 0 innocent people get punished.

> >

> > Like i said for the other programs that were created purely to cheat in GW2, sure they had no legitimate reason to be running those programs. But with Cheat engine the world isn't so black and white and as far as i am aware it's impossible to use it to cheat in GW2 as cheat engine cannot edit server side data.

> >

> > The official cheat engine forums themselves don't even allow users to post tables/tutorials for multiplayer games.

> >

> >

>

> That doesn't mean it isn't possible... GW2 relies heavily on the CLIENT side instance for things like positional data in order to combat latency, particularly for things that require split second timing like activating your glider just before you hit the ground. That means that the common "teleport hack" (there are also examples of it being used as a flying hack) can be done by using cheat engine to adjust the positional data that is being sent to the GW2 servers, causing your character to move to places that would otherwise not be possible. Most things are strictly server side, in particular actual character and inventory data, but positional data is largely client side. Cheat Engine can be and is used to manipulate this data before it is sent out (You can actually find examples on youtube of people doing this FOR GW2).

 

And still you could implement methods to detect this client manipulation serverside. Of course, it would mean higher server costs, more money spent on developers and less profit. So of course, the approach Anet took is the better way /sarcasm off.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Yasi.9065" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"Deihnyx.6318" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"starhunter.6015" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No they installed spyware on March 6th and removed it on March 27th on all our computers.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You need to do your research and come back when you understand the entire situation

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It was not spyware, it was only checking processes running along with GW2. It scanned for nothing more. It collected no personal information, no location data, no passwords. It is not tracking what web sites you went too. Many MMO's run programs like this to check for cheats and hacks.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No it opened each file and read it then sent it back to Anet servers.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > That is the definition of spyware

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Read the link to the reddit post

> > > > > > > > > > Read it, yes.

> > > > > > > > > > It sends a list of hashed values, a hash is destructive and you can't get the original content back.

> > > > > > > > > > No "private" information, just a guess of what processes were used, which is required to detect a list of software they don't want you to use.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Stop posting misinformation

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > They will then go through all processes and get their file names. Those file names are then fed into the very same hash function as before at 0x6F4E90, which will open the respective files, read all their content, create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash, which are then, again, stored in a list for later use.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivially to reverse

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Do you even read what you post?

> > > > > > > > "create a MD5 hash of it and returns said hash"

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Seriously.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > While the list is submitted in form of hashes, those hashes are not salted, so they are trivial to reverse

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > A hash IS destructive, you will NOT get the value back. If you believe that I really hope you're not working in any job related with IT.

> > > > > > Encryption, compression, now you get the stuff back, but those are different things.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Now, yes, they need the hash of "cheat engine" so that they can compare it with their own hash of "Cheat Engine" and conclude you are using it. That's why it's possible to figure out what processes are running. That's the whole point of this process, that they can detect if you're using something they don't want you to be using.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes they are but they were unsalted which means you can still match it to databases and see what program it was and sending all that info across the internet is not okay. Hence why blizzards and others use a local database on the users system. It's a lazy "anti-cheat" considering its trivial to compile your own version, something as small as a 1 byte difference means it wont be detected.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > It is getting old. A method that catches 90% of the cheaters is still better than nothing. Salting this kind of information would be a waste of CPU time and energy.

> > > Generating the list of hashes repeatedly is the thing that is a waste of CPU time and energy. Adding a salt would be such a small amount of additional overhead that it might as well be unmeasurable. Sure, catching 90% of the cheaters is good, but not when you have a significant number of false positives and refuse to overturn them with appeals.

> >

> > But there are no false positives. If you cheat in one game you are prone to cheating and should be kept out of online games.

> > Also the hashing is nothing to a modern CPU, so if it happens let's say every 5min or so it will cosnume like 0.01% of your CPU time.

> > I just run a benchmark and my CPU can handle hashing 11.7 GB data per second of simple algorithms like MD5.

> > Even the most complex algorithms my benchmark tool has still reach 1 GB of data hashed per second.

>

> As someone that has learned how to program stuff WITHOUT wasting resources, Im very aware how to go about something like this in an efficient way. The person that wrote that snippet of code didnt.

>

> As to your generalization about cheaters and how they should all be punished without proven guilty (no matter if they actually cheated or not). How does Anet even know that someone cheats in another game? Because a debugger is opened and a game is running? Conjecture! That would also make everyone running the majority of mouse software a macro-user.

>

> You got a c/++/# compiler running on your system? Fishy, could be you are writing a cheat -> suspended

> You got mouse software installed? Shady, could be used to create macros -> suspended

> You got an autoit or ahk script running? Suspect, could be used to cheat OR for macroing -> banned

> You use VMware? Suspicious, you obviously have something to hide -> banned

> You got wireshark installed? Obviously you are trying to reverse engineer network traffic -> banned

> You searched the internet for cheating? Well, you are practically proven guilty already -> banned

>

> All those things have one thing in common: conjecture. And thats exactly what Anet did there with CheatEngine. And what you do when agreeing with Anets methods.

 

This whole discussion looks like a big fight

In the case CE idea so can we say same on the rest too

And if you agree to the TERMs of agreement it means what it said you agreed too their terms same like with itunes most people will never read it

[usnedward.9023]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > >

> > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game".

> >

> > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah....

> > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol

> >

> But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything).

 

Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules?

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> >

> > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> >

> > end of story.

> >

> > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

>

> Yes you can

>

> > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

>

> ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

 

You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

 

Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> > >

> > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> > >

> > > end of story.

> > >

> > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

> >

> > Yes you can

> >

> > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

> >

> > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

>

> You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

>

> Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

 

The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> > > >

> > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> > > >

> > > > end of story.

> > > >

> > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

> > >

> > > Yes you can

> > >

> > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

> > >

> > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

> >

> > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

> >

> > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

>

> The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused

 

Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service.

 

You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

 

Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent."

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules?

 

Admitting you follow a religious POV that willingly isolates passages from academic texts that appear to support their claims, while deliberately excluding context and conclusions to the contrary really undermines your whole point.

 

[Shikigami.4013]

Except ArenaNet does not need proof. You already know it but you are too deep into your crusade against them to acknowledge this. Instead you choose to ignore all the posts where people have correctly stated and/or proven that ArenaNet can suspend or ban anyone they want to without proof of anything.

[Twoodi.5849]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> > > > >

> > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> > > > >

> > > > > end of story.

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

> > > >

> > > > Yes you can

> > > >

> > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

> > > >

> > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

> > >

> > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

> > >

> > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

> >

> > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused

>

> Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service.

>

> You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

>

> Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent."

>You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

 

I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :) I find it comical you as a consumer yourself are saying that like it would be a good thing. You should protect your rights not give them up because you like a certain company.

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > end of story.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes you can

> > > > >

> > > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

> > > > >

> > > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

> > > >

> > > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

> > > >

> > > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

> > >

> > > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused

> >

> > Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service.

> >

> > You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

> >

> > Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent."

> >You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

>

> I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :)

 

Want to bet? Go setup shop.in Lions Arch and scream obsenities in map chat. See how fast your right to free speech evaporates away. You have NO RIGHTS. And if you'd like to take it to court to invalidate their ToS/UA, feel free. They'll refund you and then permanently ban you from the service. So go for it!

[Nightlark.4029]

> @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > >

> > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game".

> > >

> > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah....

> > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol

> > >

> > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything).

>

> Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules?

 

Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach -- at least for PR it seems that way.

 

Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine.

[Mr Quikeh.5461]

If Anet has this capability, which they do clearly. Why not leave it in place? Why remove it at all? Why was it (in this instance) added then removed. Degradation of a personal it system by anyone (at least in the uk) regardless of purpose is a bad move, only has to be one person

[Sojar.1495]

> @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > > @"usnedward.9023" said:

> > > > > @"Nightlark.4029" said:

> > > > >

> > > > > or software designed to change or modify operation of the Game".

> > > >

> > > > Hits the nail on the head. Did you not read it before you posted it? DESIGNED TO...blah blah....

> > > > Cheatengine can do this by by design by reading memory thus giving hackers the ability to cheat in one form or another.... lol

> > > >

> > > But Cheat Engine is not designed for "the Game", so when used for other purposes, it is not "software related to the Game". You're taking a very dangerous and far reaching interpretation of the ToS (which ANet intentionally wrote to be vague and open enough to cover everything).

> >

> > Or are they taking the dangerous approach? The point is not that cheatengine was designed for GW2 but is designed in the sense it can modify the game in some shape or form and to me appears to be enough to break the ToS agreement. You see it differently and that's fine. I see the earth as 6000 to 10,000 years old and the same evidence used people see it as millions to billions. We are not all going to agree but just be nice when spreading your point of view :) It's a legal thing in both our eyes and ANETs. I doubt someone is going to try and sue ANET over this and I am sure there were or are going to be back charges but that is an inst- ban of account right there. I could easily back charge around 75 bucks as I doubt I will be back to play but why would I knowing I broke the rules?

>

> Very much a legal thing. ANet might be taking a dangerous approach.

> Interesting thing is that Cheat Engine has some "terms" of use that are better than ANet -- they say to only use Cheat Engine for legal things, and avoid features that break license agreements, which means even though it has features that can be used to change or modify operation of the Game, the Cheat Engine terms don't allow using those features with Guild Wars 2. Considering they have that term of use, running Cheat Engine would not be a violation of the ToS, because the Cheat Engine agreement forbids using the features that could change or modify (or obtain data) with GW2 since using those features would be illegal, meaning that it is designed to change or modify operation of other games/programs but not change or modify operation of GW2 (since that is not allowed by the Cheat Engine "terms" of use). In fact, anyone using Cheat Engine to change or modify or obtain data in GW2 is not only violating the ToS with ANet, they are also violating the "terms" of use for Cheat Engine.

 

Wrong. CheatEngine has those terms simply to protect them from legal action against them via game development companies. It's so they can simply say "We told them not to. Sue the guy who broke our policy, not us. We didn't break your game."

[Shikigami.4013]

> @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > @"Sojar.1495" said:

> > > > > > @"Twoodi.5849" said:

> > > > > > > @"trueanimus.4085" said:

> > > > > > > all i can say is good riddance. if you had the program running, any of them, at the same time the GW2.exe was going, you cant prove that you werent using it just like they cant prove you were.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The point is... if you had those cheat programs running, you either knew how to cheat and didnt, or you were straight up cheating period.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > end of story.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Thank you anet for finally showing some concern

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes you can

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > I already outlined one way they could have used to determine whether or not the Cheat Engine process is attached to the Guild Wars 2 process by simply checking the handles the Cheat Engine process has open. So there are definitely ways to figure it out. It would take less than 15 minutes to implement and can be done in probably less than 20 lines of code as well. So this is not at all some kind of technical limitation.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ANET were just sloppy, made assumptions and banned innocent people.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can prove you had Cheat Engine running multiple times in tandem with GW2, and did not use it for cheating in GW2?

> > > > >

> > > > > Well then,, post your proof. I'll wait. Calling your bluff here and now. So, prove it!

> > > >

> > > > The burden of proof is on the accuser not the accused

> > >

> > > Wrong again. This isn't the public justice system. This is a private service.

> > >

> > > You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

> > >

> > > Also, still waiting on that proof, which you so confidently stated was able to be provided by the "innocent."

> > >You have no rights. No free speech. No right to freedom. No rights except what ANET grants you.

> >

> > I have all of my rights as i live in the EU :)

>

> Want to bet? Go setup shop.in Lions Arch and scream obsenities in map chat. See how fast your right to free speech evaporates away. You have NO RIGHTS. And if you'd like to take it to court to invalidate their ToS/UA, feel free. They'll refund you and then permanently ban you from the service. So go for it!

 

He does not even need to take it to court. He can just tell them that he does not accept the user agreement because he lives in the EU and and considers it "not legally binding". And they can just tell him "Fine, when there is no valid user agreement between us, you never received the right to access our game servers" and close his account. :)