Account suspension discussion [merged]

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > What do you think insulting me is going to do, make me cower in subservience and hold out my wallet to ANet? Warden by Blizzard is public and open, nothing to hide there; ANet was sneaky and under handed that is my problem and it is on them to bring me back into the fold. I've dropped Cable Providers and Cell Phone Carriers for less.

>

> Er. So drop Anet/GW2? No one is stopping you....and if you were one of the ones banned for 6 months, hey, you have a head start? I really so no issue here.

>

 

I haven't logged in for almost two weeks, spent my disposable income on another game buying an upcoming expansion while renewing a membership. Meanwhile my ticket to support demanding answers has been collecting dust for almost a week. I'm sure ANet isn't to concerned, I guess they pay their bills with Wonka Bars.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

Reckless? I invite ANet to check my computer for any program that may allow me to cheat with their game. Because I did when I clicked "I agree" before I was allowed to play this game.

 

The only action that was 'reckless' is from those who clicked the agreement without knowing what they were doing. Methodology does not give cheaters a pass. As much as some may want to discuss it. Reason for suspension is the topic.

 

Not the methods as to how it happened.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > > Be a decent human being and respect your fellow gamers, don't cheat, and don't run programs that allow you to cheat while playing this game. Never read any EULA, but I've never been banned from a game in the over twenty years I've been playing games . . . online or otherwise. You know why? Because I use common sense.

> > > >

> > > > Don't let people fool you. They know what they're doing. This sudden outrage of ignorance is nothing but performance. The rules aren't the problem. The problem is the people trying to make others jump through hoops in some poor man's attempt to look innocent and discredit those who caught them doing something shady.

> > > >

> > > > They'll discuss everything and anything . . . except what _they_ did wrong. Personal responsibility prevents us from having to make excuses for poor decisions. And this is not only true for online gaming, but for life in general.

> > > >

> > > > And if anyone is in doubt about what can and cannot be done in a game? Ask. Developers and the community will be more than happy to say.

> > >

> > > I did not cheat, I was not banned. I find it insulting that you lump all dissenters in the same category.

> >

> > I find it equally interesting that you responded since I called no one out specifically.

>

> No you just generally all labeled us together, you might as well have said 'you people'.

 

When you find me saying that, you will be correct. Otherwise, you're dangerously close to putting words in my mouth in your attempts to deflect. I suggest you consider any further responses carefully.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > > > Be a decent human being and respect your fellow gamers, don't cheat, and don't run programs that allow you to cheat while playing this game. Never read any EULA, but I've never been banned from a game in the over twenty years I've been playing games . . . online or otherwise. You know why? Because I use common sense.

> > > > >

> > > > > Don't let people fool you. They know what they're doing. This sudden outrage of ignorance is nothing but performance. The rules aren't the problem. The problem is the people trying to make others jump through hoops in some poor man's attempt to look innocent and discredit those who caught them doing something shady.

> > > > >

> > > > > They'll discuss everything and anything . . . except what _they_ did wrong. Personal responsibility prevents us from having to make excuses for poor decisions. And this is not only true for online gaming, but for life in general.

> > > > >

> > > > > And if anyone is in doubt about what can and cannot be done in a game? Ask. Developers and the community will be more than happy to say.

> > > >

> > > > I did not cheat, I was not banned. I find it insulting that you lump all dissenters in the same category.

> > >

> > > I find it equally interesting that you responded since I called no one out specifically.

> >

> > No you just generally all labeled us together, you might as well have said 'you people'.

>

> When you find me saying that, you will be correct. Otherwise, you're dangerously close to putting words in my mouth in your attempts to deflect. I suggest your consider any further responses carefully.

 

With all due respect, if you had not made that generalization in the first place I wouldn't have said anything. You are correct that I could have been less salty while addressing what I perceived.

 

Was that careful enough, I attempted to dial it back and be more amiable?

 

I am known for being grouchy unfortunately.

 

I apologize, I know we've seen eye to eye on many topics in the past, such as Raids.

[GreyWolf.8670]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

> > >

> > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2?

> > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

> > >

> > > I thank you all for participating

> > >

> >

> > Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.

> > But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

>

> Minors can not sign contracts.

 

Yes they can, the contract just wouldn't be valid. Invalid EULA agreement = account closure.

[mrstealth.6701]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Ardenwolfe.8590" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Galaa.8475" said:

> > > > Dang! yall still on this? what's done is done. time to move on and get along lil doggy. this horse is dead. the ship has sailed. the sun has set. GET OVER IT ALL READY KIDDO'S!

> > >

> > > Anet hasn't addressed the issue of installing spyware on our computers.

> >

> > In the meantime, would you like to return to the original topic of why certain players were suspended from the game?

>

> It's related, since said banning was caused by a reckless dredging tool.

 

The only thing I'd consider wreckless is banning for CheatEngine running without taking anything else into consideration.

 

I'd say the tool itself would only qualify if the current thinking was debunked, and it was found to have been sending Anet the full list of running processes.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"GreyWolf.8670" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

> > > >

> > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2?

> > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

> > > >

> > > > I thank you all for participating

> > > >

> > >

> > > Doesn't matter, go read the User Agreement and you'll figure out why.

> > > But seeing as you haven't and won't all the while retaining some fantasy land idea that Anet is some big bad evil cooperation for using the tools at its disposal everything you say is moot.

> >

> > Minors can not sign contracts.

>

> Yes they can, the contract just wouldn't be valid. Invalid EULA agreement = account closure.

 

That sentence was just a contradiction, you see you can not have a game with a rating for minors and then expect them to sign a contract that they are not legally bound to since it violates contract law. Further more I'm not sure if you can lay out 2 different sets of legal obligations for different customers because I'm not so sure that would hold up in court if an adult claimed a minor customer had better terms and stated the practice was discriminatory against his cultural sub group. In most Human Resources rules I've seen Ageism is considered a form of discrimination which can be argued in a Civil Court (other wise why cover their back sides by putting into Human Resources Handbooks).

 

A game with a rating that was earned for Teens can not legally expect a minor to sign a contract since A)Minors can not sign contracts and B ) The game can not be rated for Teens if you expect a minor to sign a contract they can not legally sign.

 

If you can not legally get a minor to sign a contract then you can not expect an adult to have to agree to a different set of criteria in a contract of their own in the same property because that falls under Ageism which is discrimination. A company can not discriminate against employees already due to Ageism so one might assume they couldn't legally do that to their customers either.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

If I have come off as short to any one recently I apologize, I know I've already ruffled some one's feathers I've normally seen eye to eye with; trying to keep it low key.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> If you can not legally get a minor to sign a contract then you can not expect an adult to have to agree to a different set of criteria in a contract of their own in the same property because that falls under Ageism which is discrimination. A company can not discriminate against employees already due to Ageism so one might assume they couldn't legally do that to their customers either.

 

**Section 9**.a) By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are (1... 2...) 3) a minor age 13-17 **who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9© below**. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE.

 

The 'contract', UA, is *the same* for everyone.

Whether that minor sought permission or not, since the 'contract' is signed by said minor, it is the assumption of ArenaNet through it's UA, that access is being allowed to the minor WITH a responsible adults permission. The minor that LIES to gain access whether a parent/guardian authorises to do so, has fraudulently gained access.

 

C)i) You acknowledge, and further agree, that **each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT”** they are entering into an agreement **with Your consent and on Your behalf;**

ii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf;

iii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” **You (parent/guardian/human responsible) are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor.**

 

The childs account, is by law not owned by the child, it is owned by the responsible adult who takes care of said child.

 

 

This is my favourite bit though;

9)C)iv) **the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible** under **all the provisions of this agreement**. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and **further agreed** that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes **both the adult at least 18 years of age** and otherwise legally **competent to read, understand and accept** the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, **as well as the minor** age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game;

 

The UA when it comes to the game/company accessing minors, is also very clear. And since, account access is only granted upon agreement with the above, any repercussions are of the responsible adult, NOT that the 'contract' is invalid.

 

 

Reading is FUN. Try it, soak it in.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > If you can not legally get a minor to sign a contract then you can not expect an adult to have to agree to a different set of criteria in a contract of their own in the same property because that falls under Ageism which is discrimination. A company can not discriminate against employees already due to Ageism so one might assume they couldn't legally do that to their customers either.

>

> **Section 9**.a) By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are (1... 2...) 3) a minor age 13-17 **who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9© below**. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE.

>

> The 'contract', UA, is *the same* for everyone.

> Whether that minor sought permission or not, since the 'contract' is signed by said minor, the minor LIES to gain access whether a parent/guardian authorises to do so, therefore, the minor in question, has fraudulently gained access.

>

> C)i) You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf;

> ii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf;

> iii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” **You (parent/guardian/human responsible) are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor.**

>

> The childs account, is by law not owned by the child, it is owned by the responsible adult who takes care of said child.

>

>

> This is my favourite bit though;

> 9)C)iv) **the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible** under **all the provisions of this agreement**. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and **further agreed** that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes **both the adult at least 18 years of age** and otherwise legally **competent to read, understand and accept** the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, **as well as the minor** age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game;

>

> The UA when it comes to the game/company accessing minors, is also very clear. And since, account access is only granted upon agreement with the above, any repercussions are of the responsible adult, NOT that the 'contract' is invalid.

 

You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

 

You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

[RebelliousChyld.6427]

In the TOS and the EULA - it states that if one is of a minor, they must have an adult/parent/or guardian who agrees to the terms of use as the child themselves cannot agree to them. And this is not the only game that does that, this is not the only company that does that, this is not the only area of consumerism that does this. A parent signs for medical treatment of their child, signs for them not only to get their license, but also to put their name on car insurance, and even to get a job at the applicable age if they are indeed, a minor.

 

So, as I do have a teenager, it is my duty to take responsibility for his actions, which is why they have said clause in the TOS and the EULA in the first place. Because they are indeed, a minor. So in this regard if my child played Guild Wars (which they do not), and they had a program that pinged positive on the scan for cheating, they would not be held accountable - I would be. The outcome would indeed be the same, they would be banned, but it would be because I as an adult did not enforce my due diligence to ensure they were not doing something like cheating. And in fact, if they were to play GW2, get banned for cheating, and I found out about it? They would also be banned from the PC for quite a while until they could show themselves to be responsible enough to play a game fairly.

 

But here are some of my thoughts on this ban that happened - I am not a tech person, but these are simply my thoughts on this, a theory if you will.

 

1. They added a process to a patch that scanned specifically for a string/hash that is synonymous with specific programs.

2. This information was sent back to Guild Wars 2 going "hey...hey guys...Guys... this person has this program running. Take a look would ya?"

3. Those who are in this department go and take a look, seeing if they could find any information out. Maybe there was a report that coincided with these actions, this time, and this date perhaps of this person playing and doing something questionable. Maybe they followed this player around in inviso mode to see what they were doing.

4. They come to the conclusion that something seemed wonky and report back "yea, this looks legit. Unfortunately, we know we have to do."

5. After several weeks of research and data collection - the process in the patch is removed and the bans were handed out.

 

Why do I think it happened this way?

 

Because it took several weeks of them doing this, not just an overnight thing. But a time for research to be collected. Because as someone who has an insight to business (but not technology) the last thing a company wants to do is go "nope, sorry, we don't really want your business, sucks to be you." Because that's not the way business or consumerism works. I know that the statement of appeals were not going to be handed out seems really scary. But that also means that perhaps there is something out there that makes them certain it was not a false positive. This is a company that looks at not only making money, but also making an environment sound for everyone. And for those whom have had a rare false positive (as I recall reading about someone who had CE running to translate e-books), the ban had been lifted. So it does mean that there is due diligence being done, in the background.

 

Will ANET make a statement on this? I am more than certain they will.

 

But no doubt they are being inundated with support tickets, even though they told people they would not be accepting appeals.

 

However, in the long run, we as players of this game, accepted that there would be the possibility of them taking a peek at the things that interact with their game, their product, their property. After all, we're just renting it so to speak. And just as landlords are allowed to go into their properties for inspection, so is ANET allowed to do their own. (Yes, I know, most landlords have to give advance warning before entering. But this is a base example, not an in-depth legality one. Because if it is in a contract that the landlord can enter at any time while the occupant is home, then it's binding.) And in fact, up until now, I always assumed that they were indeed doing this. And I am okay with that. Why? Because it's their job to do so, just as it's my job as a consumer to -not- try to cheat.

 

I'm not an ANET apologist, but I am a realist, a consumer, and an adult. I trust in the fact that this company has taken the protocols of security seriously, especially in light of all the security breaches that have indeed happened in the recent past. And seeing as I'm not getting anymore Junkmail/spam/targetted ads or anything of that like than I ever have before... Nor have I been pinged by any financial institution that my information is not secure, I remain steadfast in this belief.

 

I'm not here to attack nor belittle another person's belief. Those are your beliefs, and these are mine.

 

Take my 2 copper for what you will.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

>

> You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

 

This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

[Laila Lightness.8742]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > If you can not legally get a minor to sign a contract then you can not expect an adult to have to agree to a different set of criteria in a contract of their own in the same property because that falls under Ageism which is discrimination. A company can not discriminate against employees already due to Ageism so one might assume they couldn't legally do that to their customers either.

> >

> > **Section 9**.a) By clicking “I ACCEPT” You warrant and represent that You are (1... 2...) 3) a minor age 13-17 **who has been authorized to click “I ACCEPT” under the provisions of Section 9© below**. YOU ARE HEREBY FOREWARNED THAT ArenaNet MAY, IN ITS REASONABLE DISCRETION, EXERCISE ITS SECTION 3(b) RIGHT TO TERMINATE BASED ON FAILURE TO COMPLY WITH THE CRITERIA ABOVE.

> >

> > The 'contract', UA, is *the same* for everyone.

> > Whether that minor sought permission or not, since the 'contract' is signed by said minor, the minor LIES to gain access whether a parent/guardian authorises to do so, therefore, the minor in question, has fraudulently gained access.

> >

> > C)i) You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” they are entering into an agreement with Your consent and on Your behalf;

> > ii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” You are responsible for all the provisions they have agreed to on Your behalf;

> > iii)You acknowledge, and further agree, that each and every time that minor clicks “I ACCEPT” **You (parent/guardian/human responsible) are legally responsible for all actions of that minor, including but not limited to any payments, damages and/or liabilities related to the actions of that minor.**

> >

> > The childs account, is by law not owned by the child, it is owned by the responsible adult who takes care of said child.

> >

> >

> > This is my favourite bit though;

> > 9)C)iv) **the fact that both the adult and the minor are jointly and severally responsible** under **all the provisions of this agreement**. Accordingly, it is acknowledged and **further agreed** that the definition of “You” under this agreement includes **both the adult at least 18 years of age** and otherwise legally **competent to read, understand and accept** the provisions of this agreement on behalf of themselves, **as well as the minor** age 13-17 for whom the adult is legally permitted to allow access to the Game;

> >

> > The UA when it comes to the game/company accessing minors, is also very clear. And since, account access is only granted upon agreement with the above, any repercussions are of the responsible adult, NOT that the 'contract' is invalid.

>

> You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

>

> You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

 

M rating is 17+ basicly still minor for legal it has to have A rating wich is illegal and by that logic minors cant be suspended ore banned if caught cheating also they would have a free pass to do what ever they want

[mrstealth.6701]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> >

> > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

>

> This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

 

I don't know about other countries/agencies, but the ESRB does not have the power to enforce their ratings on stores. Most will still not sell a rated M game to someone under 17, but they are under no legal obligation to follow that guideline.

 

http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.aspx

[Laila Lightness.8742]

Its stating clear if minor dont seek permission for the terms of agreement and service they lie thats is not on anets then children lies ore skip reading its there andyou should not click on box that you done something without doing so

And for cheat engine they cant see hooks for they would need a real spyware to go in deeper anet did is basic kinda and clumsy but atleast . With the no apeal thingy just read thread the support can barly manage as its think of 1500 probly more tickets of apealson an already over burdened support

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > >

> > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> >

> > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

>

> I don't know about other countries/agencies, but the ESRB does not have the power to enforce their ratings on stores. Most will still not sell a rated M game to someone under 17, but they are under no legal obligation to follow that guideline.

>

> http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.aspx

 

Yes we have established esrb ratings are guidelines.

We also are aware, any new user after purchase whom does not agree to the UA, including the parts where a minor is required permission of their responsible adult (parent/guardian), is entitled to a full refund within 30 days of that purchase.

What is your point? Because it seems like a huge tangent to the content of my actual posts.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> >

> > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

>

> This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

 

That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

I just want to know from ANet what data they took off my machine, I don't want to hear it from Arm Chair Anet. I've paid them well over a $1,000 in Gems, I think I've earned that courtesy. Call me entitled if you want, as long as you call ANet entitled for expecting us to spend money in the Gem Store.

[Haleydawn.3764]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > >

> > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> >

> > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

>

> That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law.

 

You really think Anet would be around this long if there was that big gaping hole in the legality of their marketing/advertising? Methinks not.

I’ve said my 2, for this topic, enjoy the merry-go-round the rest of you!

[mrstealth.6701]

> @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > > >

> > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> > >

> > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

> >

> > I don't know about other countries/agencies, but the ESRB does not have the power to enforce their ratings on stores. Most will still not sell a rated M game to someone under 17, but they are under no legal obligation to follow that guideline.

> >

> > http://www.esrb.org/ratings/faq.aspx

>

> Yes we have established esrb ratings are guidelines.

> We also are aware, any new user after purchase whom does not agree to the UA, including the parts where a minor is required permission of their responsible adult (parent/guardian), is entitled to a full refund within 30 days of that purchase.

> What is your point? Because it seems like a huge tangent to the content of my actual posts.

 

Maybe I should have just replied to/quoted Oldirtbeard.9834, but your post was relating additional information regarding theirs.

 

My point was that the game rating doesn't really matter at all here, even regarding what you posted.

[Ashen.2907]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > @"Ashen.2907" said:

> > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > @"Obtena.7952" said:

> > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > @"mrstealth.6701" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Also no one has brought up a VERY important fact about the legality of what they did.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > What is the ESRB rating of GW2?

> > > > > > > > > > > > Did you verify you are of the age of consent before agreeing to the ToS/EULA?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > I thank you all for participating

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > I see everyone is ignoring this post b/c they know where it'll go huh?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Let's go

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Anyone?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It would probably only end up accounts being terminated because the person that agreed to the ToS was not legally able to to so. The ToS itself lays out the requirements for valid entry into the terms of the agreement. If anyone were to suffer any legal consequences, it would almost certainly be the parent/guardian of the minor.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The game is marketed to underage people. This means that you do not have to be 18 to purchase GW2 and install it onto your computer.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > The company then installs spyware onto the underage & unable to give consent person stating they are legally able to b/c they got consent.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Get where I'm going now?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The parent/guardian is legally responsible for the actions of their child. They permitted them to buy the game, install it, and agree to the ToS. Not being aware of what the child is doing does not absolve them of that responsibility, it makes them negligent.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes but they went by the ESRB rating which was marketed to the underage child. Again start looking at your argument against other crimes against children. Having a child sign a ToS/EULA won't absolve the criminal who targeted the child. Read their privacy statement and then come back

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Sorry ... what 'underage' children are you refering to? GW2 is rated TEEN, that's 13 YO. Are we going to add 'marketing' to your list of abused words now as well? How is Anet marketing GW2 to children under 13, getting them to buy, install and play the game ... all without their (negligent) parent's knowledge?

> > > > >

> > > > > A 13 year old is an underage child. Do you honestly think a 13 year old is able to give consent?!!??!!!

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Nope. A 13 year old cannot give consent and so, unless their parent agreed to the ToS for them, they were never allowed to access the game servers. If the 13 year old agreed to the ToS, he committed an act of fraud.

> > >

> > > Nope he's legally allowed to buy the game. There is no fraud since the game is marketed to him. Again if Kool Aid decided to put grain alcohol into their beverages and continued to sell it to kids they'd be in real trouble even if they made the child sign a contract stating they are of age. I'm not saying Anet is giving alcohol to children or if it's nearly as severe...i'm simply saying you can't market to that age group and hope the consent sticks.

> > >

> > > It's real simple.

> >

> > The act of signing a contract is an affirmation that one is legally permitted to enter into the contract. By signing the contract the hypothetical 13 year old is claiming that he is not a minor a d so is engaging in a fraudelent act.

> >

> > Marketing is irrelevant to whether or not a minor is allowed to sign a contract.

>

> Apple iTunes class action lawsuit 2011

 

Not particularly relevant.

 

Did your hypothetical 13 year old have permission to play GW2 or did they engage in fraudulent activity in order to access tbe server's without the owner's permission?

 

[RebelliousChyld.6427]

> @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > >

> > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> >

> > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

>

> That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law.

 

Actually....

 

It is, however, mentioned on the box.

 

The dust cover and the case itself.

 

it reads:

 

**Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.**

 

It also says inside with the installation manual that:

 

**Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.**

 

So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game.

[Jinks.2057]

> @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said:

> > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > > >

> > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> > >

> > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

> >

> > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law.

>

> Actually....

>

> It is, however, mentioned on the box.

>

> The dust cover and the case itself.

>

> it reads:

>

> **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.**

>

> It also says inside with the installation manual that:

>

> **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.**

>

> So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game.

 

You just lost the case for Arenanet

 

It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement

 

Thanks for the work on finding your box

[RebelliousChyld.6427]

> @"Jinks.2057" said:

> > @"RebelliousChyld.6427" said:

> > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > @"Haleydawn.3764" said:

> > > > > @"Oldirtbeard.9834" said:

> > > > > You can't be rated for Teen while expecting a minor to sign something they can not legally sign, GW2 should be rated M for Mature just by having a contract as should all MMOs.

> > > > >

> > > > > You can write up all sorts of funny BS and call it a contract but if it violates any one's rights, even if it is a minority group such as children then it makes the contract null and void, that is Contract Law 101. I still have my intro to Law book kicking around I'm sure, had a Legal Dictionary as well at one point.

> > > >

> > > > This would be true if the UA *didn't* have a section that required users under a certain age to **obtain consent**. Under that (The UA not having a section described above) circumstance, it would be thrown out of court because a parent could claim they never gave permission, as it wasn't set out in the UA to the minor that permission to access minors was a requirement. But since Anet HAS got a section requiring minors require permission, it is not an invalid contract.

> > >

> > > That wasn't on the box, therefore deceptive advertising, another violation of law.

> >

> > Actually....

> >

> > It is, however, mentioned on the box.

> >

> > The dust cover and the case itself.

> >

> > it reads:

> >

> > **Warning: Not valid for purchase if opened. Not valid for resale by prior owner. Acceptance of certain agreements is required. Internet connection is required and players are responsible for all applicable internet fees. Children under the age of 13 are not permitted to play.**

> >

> > It also says inside with the installation manual that:

> >

> > **Acceptance of the User Agreement ("UA", persistent internet connection, account registration [13+ to Register] required to access Gameplay. USs and Disclosures can be found at http://US.NCSOFt.COM/EN/Legal/User-agreements/.**

> >

> > So, yes, in fact, it is stated on the box there is indeed a notice for the need of acceptance of certain agreements to play the game.

>

> You just lost the case for Arenanet congratulations

>

> It's worse since it says you can be 13 years old to register and sign the agreement

>

> Thanks for the work on finding your box

 

No work to it, I keep all of my gaming stuff together.

 

And no, I didn't...

 

Because of the simple fact in those User Agreements it's stated that yes, you can play this at age of 13....

 

But you have to have a parent/guardian/adult to agree to the term limits.

 

So in fact, while you are trying to grasp any sort of glimmer of hope that you might be right, and try to poke holes into this to fit into your paradigm, you are completely mistaken. Because.... **AGAIN** a minor cannot enter, a responsible party that is an adult **can** on behalf of the minor. And if for any reason it is found out that an adult did **not** agree to the terms, then the account is invalid and void, and banned therein.

 

And that the TOS/EULA/UA is available to someone BEFORE installing. So to say that there is no warning UNTIL you go to open up the game and install is wrong. to say that it lost the case for AN is wrong.

 

[Deihnyx.6318]

Jinks, you have a problem with ToS and privacy in general. That's your right but it's got nothing to do with Anet at that point.

Every single thing you've been coming up these past few days are things that could apply to any service online. This doesn't belong here and it's far from the actual topic of the thread.