yann.1946 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > >Let's be fair here you're not really starting from a middleground position. > >If you disagree please tell me wat the extreme positions are. > > The extreme positions to the left of me would be things that you accuse us of constantly, but that we do *not* actually believe, such as: > * Legendary armor mailed to every player > * Easy mode as the ONLY option for raiding > * No raids at all! > * Easy modes with the exact *same* amount of rewards as hard mode. > > The extreme positions to the right of me are: > * No easy mode at all > * If there is an easy mode, it will offer no rewards, making it non-viable out the gate, mwhaha. . . haha. > I have nog accused anyone of anything zo please keep it a little civil. > >Multiple people have already stated they wouldn't mind under certain conditions. Who are the ones not budging? > > Typically the "conditions" they offer are ones that violate the entire point of having easy mode, such as "no Envoy armor, ever," or even "no loot worth playing over at all." > Maybe you're point of easy mode. But their are quite a lot of people who would disagree. I agree the no loot is stupid tho > My position has two hard lines to it: > 1. It must provide a path to Envoy armor, although this path can be slower and involve more repetitions than the current model, short of being punitive. > 2. It must have difficulty equivalent to dungeon and living story content, something a random, untrained pug can be reasonably expected to complete. > > Beyond that, I'm pretty flexible. I feel that the hard mode should be allowed to remain intact and continue to be developed as it has been. I've agreed that perhaps the baseline rewards for existing raids should be *raised* to make them more attractive once easy mode is an option. I've agreed that there could perhaps be a unique signifier for people who have completed the existing raids, like a unique title, nametag flair, or trophy item, similar to Twice Told Legend, something that is *not* a weapon or armor skin, but that they can use to display their achievement to others. I've agreed that the path to Envoy armor via easy mode could be longer to complete than the existing path, even though everyone will be starting it two years later than those who had been playing hard mode. > So basicly because you deel you have budged enough IT are the raiders who are not budging? > I could choose to argue that the game would be better off without raiding at all, and there's plenty to support that position, but I choose to believe that we can reach a solution in which both sides can get what we want, and the only thing either side would lose would be "the other side isn't allowed to get what they want." You could and would be easily proven wrong. It's not because you ley between extremes that you have a middleground position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > Again, the easy mode might be more boring for you. That's fine, you will NEVER have any reason to participate in it. For those that would, however, it would not make the game more boring *to them,* and that's the point. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >I started playing after raids and f2p was added. Friends were trying to get me to game but they couldt tell me anything that interested me in endgame. Some time after game went f2p and i heard about dragonstand and raids i tried it and fell in love with combat and style of teamplay. > > Well, then keep in mind that the game had a much larger population before you got here. I want you to feel welcome, but I also need you to understand that hundreds of thousands, if not millions of other players *actually enjoy* the gameplay elements that you are taking a kitten on. > > >I didnt understand what you were trying to say in second part but my idea is: you can get precursor from easy raids. Its just not for kill but for example kill under time, kill when you were not downed, kill when you were not ported on vg and so on. When everything hit only for 50% you can focus on this and even if you fail you get rewards from the boss. > > Do you believe that it would be easier for players to achieve those milestones than it would be for them to be carried by a hard mode raid group? If not, then what would be the point? > > >You dont get Li but you can get it from normal escort (every day there is escort run in lfg) or any other boss if you want to speed things up. Time depends on how many bosses you want to try in normal mode > > Who would benefit by having them run escort for a couple years to get their LI, rather than running the wider variety of easy mode missions, which they would get bored of less quickly? > > I'd like you to ask yourself, are these suggestions that you believe would make those players have a fun time, or are these suggestions intended to *punish* them for not enjoying the version you currently play? I believe it would be fun. I also belive it would be easier to achieve those milestones. Raids are hard because you have to focus on more then one thing. Its much easier to focus on one thing (like not get ported) when you dont have to worry about other mechanics that much since they hit for less and also about dps since boss has less hp. And you said that normal raiders should have the armor quicker. Do you think that every raider clear every boss every week? Some bosses are only based on mechanics. If you already did VG, MO and escort on easy you can do it on normal -> 3 li every week. If you do full clear every week yoi need 2 months now. Pls tell me you want that quicker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >You wastly overestimate the content from raids for one playthrought. > > I don't think it would just be one playthrough. I think that if the rewards were appropriate, players would want to farm it at least as much as they farm the LS maps. It would be something that most players would complete at least a dozen or more times between releases, likely more. > The appropriate rewards for raids at open world level would be so low nobody would play it more than once. Especially if you need to create a proper group first. Or the rewards are overtuned. Path of least resistance. Maybe you should start considering it. > >People complain already that LS is too slow, slowing it down further would be one of the worst things to happen. > > Again, if it was a *significant* slowdown, like the post HoT one? Sure. But I **do not believe for half a second** that easy mode raids would require a *significant* slowdown. I fully believe that any slowdown that occurred would be imperceptible to the average player, it would mean that the patch was finished on a Wednesday rather than a Monday the week before the patch goes out, or maybe that they'd have to push it back a week or two, tops. I know some of you disagree, but I can't run on that faulty premise. > Your believes don't matter. Things don't behave differently because you think they should. If content is already perceived as slow every slowdown is significant. You actually run on the faulty premise that it doesn't take much ressources. Even Gaile Gray said half a year ago you need to stop assuming anything in that direction. > > Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly. > > I hadn't really considered a daily cap, but one thing they could do is have a split cap. Make it so that the "grand prize," the really interesting thing people would be going for, would have a weekly cap to it, but you could still complete the raid daily to get a decent amount of loot out of it for the limited time invested. That way, the really casual players could stick to one weekly clear (and without speeding up Envoy armor access), while players who were really having fun with it could still do it as one of their daily things and feel their time was well spent. It wouldn't be *so* good that they'd be incapable of resisting it. > Yes you already had. It was your solution to populate it the whole week. It gets really annoying that you continue to forget your own ideas. > >The content is available right now for them. There is nothing that stops them from entering it besides their own decision. Content that is already present doesn't become magically new if you paint it green instead of yellow. > > You can never advance this topic until you give up on that position. Just understand that however much you want to believe this to be true, *it is not true.* I don't want to advance towards easy mode. I don't want this game to focus more on raids or instanced content in general. I would rather like to see more content like Derelict Delve in Desert Highlands than faster fractals/raids. Maybe take a loot into low level fractals and see what happens if the playerbase of a content gets better at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > >You wastly overestimate the content from raids for one playthrought. > > > > I don't think it would just be one playthrough. I think that if the rewards were appropriate, players would want to farm it at least as much as they farm the LS maps. It would be something that most players would complete at least a dozen or more times between releases, likely more. > > > The appropriate rewards for raids at open world level would be so low nobody would play it more than once. Especially if you need to create a proper group first. Or the rewards are overtuned. Path of least resistance. Maybe you should start considering it. > > >People complain already that LS is too slow, slowing it down further would be one of the worst things to happen. > > > > Again, if it was a *significant* slowdown, like the post HoT one? Sure. But I **do not believe for half a second** that easy mode raids would require a *significant* slowdown. I fully believe that any slowdown that occurred would be imperceptible to the average player, it would mean that the patch was finished on a Wednesday rather than a Monday the week before the patch goes out, or maybe that they'd have to push it back a week or two, tops. I know some of you disagree, but I can't run on that faulty premise. > > > Your believes don't matter. Things don't behave differently because you think they should. > If content is already perceived as slow every slowdown is significant. > You actually run on the faulty premise that it doesn't take much ressources. Even Gaile Gray said half a year ago you need to stop assuming anything in that direction. > > > Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly. > > > > I hadn't really considered a daily cap, but one thing they could do is have a split cap. Make it so that the "grand prize," the really interesting thing people would be going for, would have a weekly cap to it, but you could still complete the raid daily to get a decent amount of loot out of it for the limited time invested. That way, the really casual players could stick to one weekly clear (and without speeding up Envoy armor access), while players who were really having fun with it could still do it as one of their daily things and feel their time was well spent. It wouldn't be *so* good that they'd be incapable of resisting it. > > > Yes you already had. It was your solution to populate it the whole week. It gets really annoying that you continue to forget your own ideas. > > >The content is available right now for them. There is nothing that stops them from entering it besides their own decision. Content that is already present doesn't become magically new if you paint it green instead of yellow. > > > > You can never advance this topic until you give up on that position. Just understand that however much you want to believe this to be true, *it is not true.* > > I don't want to advance towards easy mode. I don't want this game to focus more on raids or instanced content in general. I would rather like to see more content like Derelict Delve in Desert Highlands than faster fractals/raids. > Maybe take a loot into low level fractals and see what happens if the playerbase of a content gets better at it. Sorry Miellyn, I’m getting confused by your stance. You just want Raids to stay as they are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > >You wastly overestimate the content from raids for one playthrought. > > > > I don't think it would just be one playthrough. I think that if the rewards were appropriate, players would want to farm it at least as much as they farm the LS maps. It would be something that most players would complete at least a dozen or more times between releases, likely more. > > > The appropriate rewards for raids at open world level would be so low nobody would play it more than once. Especially if you need to create a proper group first. Or the rewards are overtuned. Path of least resistance. Maybe you should start considering it. If they could acquire insights then they would, much like people do fractal dailies etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"yann.1946" said: > Maybe you're point of easy mode. But their are quite a lot of people who would disagree. I agree the no loot is stupid tho I see it as killing two birds with one stone. Making an easy mode without Envoy armor would serve *some* purpose, so long as the basic rewards would be enough to justify farming it, but I don't think it would be played heavily, and it would still leave the problem of *how* to get Envoy armor into the hands of those with no interest in hard mode raiding. Seems wasteful to only fix half the problem. >So basicly because you deel you have budged enough IT are the raiders who are not budging? Exactly. I don't believe in pointless haggling, if I feel that $5 is a fair price, I see no point in going "$1" . . ."$10" . . . "$3" . . ."$7" . . . "$5!" . . . . . ."deal!" I'm just going to come out with $5 form the start, a position that I view as a fair result balanced between our interests. Likewise, however, it means that if I come out with $5, I'm not going to give you $7 just so we can claim to have "met in the middle." $7 was never a fair price for that deal. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >I believe it would be fun. I also belive it would be easier to achieve those milestones. Raids are hard because you have to focus on more then one thing. Its much easier to focus on one thing (like not get ported) when you dont have to worry about other mechanics that much since they hit for less and also about dps since boss has less hp. Yeah, but we've also seen from other events that such goals can have toxic impacts, in which some players are ignoring the victory conditions to chase the bonuses, and either cause the whole thing to fail or at least put an extra burden on everyone else. And then you could swing that the other way and say *everyone* needs to meet the condition for any of them to clear it," in which case you get back into the toxic situation where one player making a mistake ruins it for everyone. It just doesn't lead to positive outcomes in group content. >And you said that normal raiders should have the armor quicker. Quicker, yes, but the path should be open *entirely* without entering the non-easy raid. >Do you think that every raider clear every boss every week? Some bosses are only based on mechanics. If you already did VG, MO and escort on easy you can do it on normal -> 3 li every week. >If you do full clear every week yoi need 2 months now. Pls tell me you want that quicker Well remember we discussed easy mode offering *less* than one LI per clear, so whatever the minimum you'd need to get it from full clears of the existing raids each week, in easy mode it should take several times that many full clears, and take about as long to do (so most easy mode players wouldn't fully clear every encounter every week either). If a player wants to combine some easy mode and some normal mode runs in his week, that's fine, but if he just wants to stick to easy, that should work too. > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >The appropriate rewards for raids at open world level would be so low nobody would play it more than once. You have a tautology problem there, if the rewards are so low that nobody would repeat it, then the rewards would not be appropriate to the task. And again, if "rewards appropriate to make easy mode desirable" would make them more than what raids currently offer, then the solution would be to raise the current raid rewards to offset that, not to cap the easy mode at what raids currently offer. >Your believes don't matter. Things don't behave differently because you think they should. The same applies to your position in the matter. We're both just doing the best we can with the information available to us. >Yes you already had. It was your solution to populate it the whole week. It gets really annoying that you continue to forget your own ideas. Well, if you were already aware of that, then why would *you* say "Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly?" I'm just trying to address your concerns, if you know they've already been adequately addressed then why raise them again? >I don't want to advance towards easy mode. I don't want this game to focus more on raids or instanced content in general. I would rather like to see more content like Derelict Delve in Desert Highlands than faster fractals/raids. Why not both? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"yann.1946" said: > > Maybe you're point of easy mode. But their are quite a lot of people who would disagree. I agree the no loot is stupid tho > > I see it as killing two birds with one stone. Making an easy mode without Envoy armor would serve *some* purpose, so long as the basic rewards would be enough to justify farming it, but I don't think it would be played heavily, and it would still leave the problem of *how* to get Envoy armor into the hands of those with no interest in hard mode raiding. Seems wasteful to only fix half the problem. > > >So basicly because you deel you have budged enough IT are the raiders who are not budging? > > Exactly. I don't believe in pointless haggling, if I feel that $5 is a fair price, I see no point in going "$1" . . ."$10" . . . "$3" . . ."$7" . . . "$5!" . . . . . ."deal!" I'm just going to come out with $5 form the start, a position that I view as a fair result balanced between our interests. Likewise, however, it means that if I come out with $5, I'm not going to give you $7 just so we can claim to have "met in the middle." $7 was never a fair price for that deal. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >I believe it would be fun. I also belive it would be easier to achieve those milestones. Raids are hard because you have to focus on more then one thing. Its much easier to focus on one thing (like not get ported) when you dont have to worry about other mechanics that much since they hit for less and also about dps since boss has less hp. > > Yeah, but we've also seen from other events that such goals can have toxic impacts, in which some players are ignoring the victory conditions to chase the bonuses, and either cause the whole thing to fail or at least put an extra burden on everyone else. And then you could swing that the other way and say *everyone* needs to meet the condition for any of them to clear it," in which case you get back into the toxic situation where one player making a mistake ruins it for everyone. It just doesn't lead to positive outcomes in group content. > > >And you said that normal raiders should have the armor quicker. > > Quicker, yes, but the path should be open *entirely* without entering the non-easy raid. > > >Do you think that every raider clear every boss every week? Some bosses are only based on mechanics. If you already did VG, MO and escort on easy you can do it on normal -> 3 li every week. > >If you do full clear every week yoi need 2 months now. Pls tell me you want that quicker > > Well remember we discussed easy mode offering *less* than one LI per clear, so whatever the minimum you'd need to get it from full clears of the existing raids each week, in easy mode it should take several times that many full clears, and take about as long to do (so most easy mode players wouldn't fully clear every encounter every week either). If a player wants to combine some easy mode and some normal mode runs in his week, that's fine, but if he just wants to stick to easy, that should work too. > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >The appropriate rewards for raids at open world level would be so low nobody would play it more than once. > > You have a tautology problem there, if the rewards are so low that nobody would repeat it, then the rewards would not be appropriate to the task. And again, if "rewards appropriate to make easy mode desirable" would make them more than what raids currently offer, then the solution would be to raise the current raid rewards to offset that, not to cap the easy mode at what raids currently offer. > > >Your believes don't matter. Things don't behave differently because you think they should. > > The same applies to your position in the matter. We're both just doing the best we can with the information available to us. > > >Yes you already had. It was your solution to populate it the whole week. It gets really annoying that you continue to forget your own ideas. > > Well, if you were already aware of that, then why would *you* say "Daily cap instead of weekly is the opposite of casual friendly?" I'm just trying to address your concerns, if you know they've already been adequately addressed then why raise them again? > > >I don't want to advance towards easy mode. I don't want this game to focus more on raids or instanced content in general. I would rather like to see more content like Derelict Delve in Desert Highlands than faster fractals/raids. > > Why not both? > > How does mission kill a boss and dont die goes against killing the boss? Also i guess you havent seen how some encounters looks like. I will explain what escort is. You take npc and walk with him to the end of a road. Kill some adds on the way and at the end kill something that is boss only by name. Story missions are not harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > How does mission kill a boss and dont die goes against killing the boss? If you have a personal objective "never get teleported," then you might be focused too much on "never get teleported," and miss catching a green circle, miss doing your best DPS, miss numerous little tasks that could contribute to the overall success of the attempt. These things are not necessarily always a bad idea, but they can be problematic in group content. >Also i guess you havent seen how some encounters looks like. I will explain what escort is. You take npc and walk with him to the end of a road. Kill some adds on the way and at the end kill something that is boss only by name. Story missions are not harder. Yeah, I'm not saying they would be, but if the escorts are the *only* way for easy mode players to get LIs, then they would *have* to do those specific missions all the time, while hard mode players could do any encounters they wanted. If the easy mode encounters exist, then why can't they provide progress in LIs (again, less per encounter than the current model). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. That. . . makes zero sense. You do understand that "instant" is not a function of effort, right? It's like saying that "this food is so good, it's practically light speed!" or "that apple is so red, it's almost frozen!" >Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Word choice matters. "Easy gratification" would be accurate, yes, that's exactly what we're asking for. >Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. Why not? It used to cost $60 to play the base Tryia game, and now it costs zero. Things change. It. Can. Happen. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > It ends up the same. You still want to get the highest reward in the game for basically no other effort than logging in. It can't happen. > > > > > > Again, *literally* **nobody** is saying that. > > Except everyone who wants easy mode to be able to get the standard raid rewards. As already mentioned, comparing playing any content to require "no other effort than logging in" is an attempt at misrepresentation so bad it's really hard to treat you seriously after using it. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > >(buying raids is just that - it lowers difficulty to zero, but significantly increases the time. If that's okay, then anything in between should be okay as well) > > It actually *reduces* the time involved considerably, since you can buy gems with cash. Untrue. Even if you buy it outright, it will still take you at minimum the same time it would take for a dedicated raider (you do need to do those raid runs after all, buying them won't let you skip them, it will just get you carried through them) . If you dont's spend cash on it, it may obviously take more time. (of course, it doesn't factor in the training time - you _do_ skip on that). > @"yann.1946" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > Additionally, from what I've been reading, people aren't so much looking for a middle ground to meet, as they are digging themselves in their positions and demanding others to proclaim that they are right. > > > > Agreed, this is why I just cut the nonsense and start from a middleground position. The problem is that the raider crowd seems completely uninterested in budging even an inch. > > Let's be fair here you're not really starting from a middleground position. Aren't we? Easy mode is already middle ground. The hardline equivalent position on my side would be to have raids nerfed till most players will feel comfortable with difficulty. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. That's not how it works. It would be only if the effort would have been put into something the player would do anyway. It's however 7 months of _additional_ effort. Effort that player would not have done otherwise. On the other hand, if someone likes raids and would be raiding even without that armor, then the armor _doesn't_ require from him any additional effort. Wouldn't that be "effortless gratification" then? (by the way, i have already covered why i consider the argument "time doesn't matter" to be wrong, so i won't be going over it again) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laila Lightness.8742 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 If easy mode it should give same reward as hard mode too make it fair challenge should be optional not more rewarding Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Well, i tried to go out of my comfort zone and come up with something. I hope you know that before hot players were leaving because here was no endgame content and you are trying to make the highest of endgame content easier. I dont know if you relise how many players will leave this game if they had nothing to work for when everything could be done multiple ways or with shorter time. And thats what you esentialy want. You say that its bad that legendary armor is locked behind raids, ad infinitum behind fractals T4 and aurora behind LS3. Well i think its great because that means if you comit to one gaemode you have reward for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 To chime in on the amount of time you need, you still need to get your provisioner tokens. Show of hands, who here has 300 of those? I started to farm for mine after I got all my li, worst part of the journey, far worse than any of the boss fights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. > That's not how it works. It would be only if the effort would have been put into something the player would do anyway. It's however 7 months of _additional_ effort. Effort that player would not have done otherwise. On the other hand, if someone likes raids and would be raiding even without that armor, then the armor _doesn't_ require from him any additional effort. Wouldn't that be "effortless gratification" then? > > (by the way, i have already covered why i consider the argument "time doesn't matter" to be wrong, so i won't be going over it again) > > So just go for the already existing gratification if you think it might be effortless. :) Also, it is exactly how it works. Wanna know where you went wrong? In the "additional" part. Why would it be additional? You can simply switch one activity with another, equally not requiring any real effort on your side. The difference with actual raids being precisely why it's not effortless gratification - because it pushes you further than the existing content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > To chime in on the amount of time you need, you still need to get your provisioner tokens. Show of hands, who here has 300 of those? I started to farm for mine after I got all my li, worst part of the journey, far worse than any of the boss fights. Just back at 0 after finishing my second set, but yes, the tokens are the worst part of the journey. Nothing more than a pointless timegate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. > > Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. Yes, but you didn’t like the fact that obtaining Legendary Armor through an easy mode doesn’t take effort, however people are obviously buying from raid sellers. That was one of your points. So you could see some guy in Legendary Armor and he has bought the whole thing. This is already happening. Again, your not getting upset about it now, which concerns me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > > > > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. > > > > Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. > > Yes, but you didn’t like the fact that obtaining Legendary Armor through an easy mode doesn’t take effort, however people are obviously buying from raid sellers. That was one of your points. So you could see some guy in Legendary Armor and he has bought the whole thing. This is already happening. > > Again, your not getting upset about it now, which concerns me. It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 If you want to "cheat" your legendary armor go for it and buy raids. I dont care. Everyone has that option. But dont expect me help you "cheat". Also raid selling legendary armor cost alot. That is huge investment and player that bought it shows that he rly wanted it. Players that want diferent path dont want it as much as those that are willing to raid for it or buy it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shikaru.7618 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 Honestly I wouldn't mind easy mode raids as long as the rewards were balanced around people who partake in easy mode. It's taken them 2.5 years to not kill Sabetha so spending 2.5 years grinding easy mode Sabetha to equate to a normal mode clear sounds fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > If easy mode it should give same reward as hard mode too make it fair challenge should be optional not more rewarding People go path of least resistance, it is pointless to have multiple diffculties with the same reward. Just like noone does CMs more than once unless they are selling or helping a good friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Well, i tried to go out of my comfort zone and come up with something. I hope you know that before hot players were leaving because here was no endgame content and you are trying to make the highest of endgame content easier. That's actually a myth. Players were not "leaving before HoT because there was no endgame." There was plenty of endgame. Now some people left *relatively early* in GW2's lifespan because it didn't have the hardcore content they expected, but that's a natural part of MMOs, they find their level. People who were still around by HoT's launch were likely to keep sticking around a while, and just wanted to see *more* content, not *harder* content. >I dont know if you relise how many players will leave this game if they had nothing to work for when everything could be done multiple ways or with shorter time. Again, what I propose would not take shorter time, and adding multiple methods of unlocking things would not lead to players leaving sooner. All this would do it take items that are currently NEVER available to many players, and give them a path towards earning them, IF they put in the time and effort to do so. It's not *reducing* the goals in the game in any way, it's *increasing* the available goals for most players. >Well i think its great because that means if you comit to one gaemode you have reward for it. But what's the benefit to that? If you enjoy that game mode but don't care for that item, then you don't get anything great out of it. If you don't enjoy that game mode but want that item, then you won't be able to get it. It's better to reward players for playing the game modes they *enjoy* playing. > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > To chime in on the amount of time you need, you still need to get your provisioner tokens. Show of hands, who here has 300 of those? I started to farm for mine after I got all my li, worst part of the journey, far worse than any of the boss fights. And that part would remain in place. I don't have any, because I currently have no purpose for them, but if I had a purpose for them, I would start working towards them, same as you. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. Astral ran the numbers and it was actually less than a thousand bucks. More than I'd want to spend on a game, obviously, but a drop in the bucket in whale terms. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have done just that. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > If you want to "cheat" your legendary armor go for it and buy raids. I dont care. Everyone has that option. But dont expect me help you "cheat". > Also raid selling legendary armor cost alot. That is huge investment and player that bought it shows that he rly wanted it. Players that want diferent path dont want it as much as those that are willing to raid for it or buy it now. So to you, "play well" OR "spend money" are equally valid ways of acquiring the armor, but "play just as long in an easier mode" is not equally valid as "spend money to be carried?" That's just. . . sad. > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > If easy mode it should give same reward as hard mode too make it fair challenge should be optional not more rewarding > > People go path of least resistance, it is pointless to have multiple diffculties with the same reward. Just like noone does CMs more than once unless they are selling or helping a good friend. And I actually agree on this. The easy mode *should* have the rewards scaled back so that hard mode is more *efficient.* There just shouldn't be any hard barriers of things that you can *never* earn via the easy mode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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