Tyson.5160 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > > > > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > > > > > > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. > > > > > > Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. > > > > Yes, but you didn’t like the fact that obtaining Legendary Armor through an easy mode doesn’t take effort, however people are obviously buying from raid sellers. That was one of your points. So you could see some guy in Legendary Armor and he has bought the whole thing. This is already happening. > > > > Again, your not getting upset about it now, which concerns me. > > It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. How do you know this? Maybe somebody has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > > > > > > > > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. > > > > > > > > Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. > > > > > > Yes, but you didn’t like the fact that obtaining Legendary Armor through an easy mode doesn’t take effort, however people are obviously buying from raid sellers. That was one of your points. So you could see some guy in Legendary Armor and he has bought the whole thing. This is already happening. > > > > > > Again, your not getting upset about it now, which concerns me. > > > > It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. > > How do you know this? Maybe somebody has. > Pretty sure some people do. 15k Gold is not much gold to some people Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 20, 2018 Share Posted April 20, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I am presenting a reasonable argument here, and the best response you can come back with is "yesssss. . . but what if *instead* you were to be *un*reasonable?" Nothing you've said has been reasonable. You want the rewards from raiding on an easier difficulty. That's fantasy and isn't going to happen. No sane developer is going to even remotely consider it. Even if on the off chance they give in and create an easy mode it will have it's own subsection with its own achievements which in no way allow you to work toward legendary armor. So you want a mid ground, that's your mid ground. Suggesting anything else is unreasonable which is why people keep telling you such. It's why people showcase your own position as absurd and why we keep using equally ludicrous analogies because you refuse to see how bad your proposal is but somehow when we take it from 10 to 11 you suddenly fight back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: >Nothing you've said has been reasonable. Then why not present arguments against what I *said,* rather than having to *make up* positions for you to be outraged over? >You want the rewards from raiding on an easier difficulty. That's fantasy and isn't going to happen. Why not? You can get dungeon rewards from PvP, you can get LS rewards by spending log-in laurels, there's plenty of precedent for once-exclusive rewards being made available via alternate, often easier methods. >No sane developer is going to even remotely consider it. Then nobody needs you pointing that out. If there's no chance of them doing it, then there's nothing for you for worry about. >Even if on the off chance they give in and create an easy mode it will have it's own subsection with its own achievements which in no way allow you to work toward legendary armor. Maybe, but again, that would only be half a solution, and they would need to work out a *completely different* solution for how to get the Envoy armor to people who don't raid. It just seems like a wasted opportunity to me, it's like saying "well, we have all this food that'll go to waste if we don't cook it, and we have all those hungry people over there, so. . . let's cook up the food and then throw it in the trash, and *then* order take-out for all those hungry people!" >So you want a mid ground, that's your mid ground. Suggesting anything else is unreasonable which is why people keep telling you such. It's why people showcase your own position as absurd and why we keep using equally ludicrous analogies because you refuse to see how bad your proposal is but somehow when we take it from 10 to 11 you suddenly fight back. Well see, nobody *is* showcasing *my* positions as absurd. They *claim* that my position is absurd, but when pushed to back up that claim, to make a reasonable case as to *why* my position is "so absurd," the best they can do is to make up completely *new* positions for me to hold, and then claim that *those* are absurd. Well I'm sorry, but I have no control over not-me. If I were as wrong as you insist I am, then you could argue back against *me,* rather than against some abstract boogeyman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 On the plus side, I spoke with Ben on the pvp forums and they will be releasing a glorious armor skin in pvp that has FX on it. Much like the Mistforged Triumphant armor in wvw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > OR, ask the developers to improve their product. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That right here is your problem. You're asking them nothing of the sort. You're asking them to make the game more boring, all for the personal instant gratification. I wonder why it doesn't happen... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 months is instant gratification? That is almost the same amount of time it takes for a baby to develop. Guess that’s instant too, I suppose, who knew... > > > > > > > > > > > > Once again, it's not about the time, it's about the lack of effort. Players debating here, we've played for MUCH more than 7 months. It's safe to say we'll be playing in 7 months time as well. So if there is no effort involved, it's functionally equivalent to instant gratification. Change it to "easy gratification" if you like. Nitpicking doesn't change the essence of the request, or its consequences. It. Cannot. Happen. Simple as that. > > > > > > > > > > My problem is, everyone seems to be dodging the raid selling remark. Why? Why hasn’t the raid commmunity started a forum post saying no raiding selling! It takes away the effort of obtaining Legendary Armor! > > > > > > > > > > You guys don’t do that and it’s practically the same thing as we had previously discussed in this thread, yet no one seems to touch it. > > > > > > > > Because raid selling is a minor thing. Very few people sell raids, and not many buy either. These don't affect strongly even the raiders, let alone the playerbase at large. > > > > > > Yes, but you didn’t like the fact that obtaining Legendary Armor through an easy mode doesn’t take effort, however people are obviously buying from raid sellers. That was one of your points. So you could see some guy in Legendary Armor and he has bought the whole thing. This is already happening. > > > > > > Again, your not getting upset about it now, which concerns me. > > > > It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. > > How do you know this? Maybe somebody has. > Even if somebody has, it's an insignificant number of players. According to gw2efficiency, my current 13k wallet gold is higher than what 99% of the accounts have, and I'm fairly sure 13k would not be enough to buy your way from zero to the full *first* set. And then you should consider how big a part of your assets you'd want to spend on this. I doubt many people will answer "all of it". So you're looking for people with access to several tens of thousands gold, who are both interested in the Envoy set and unable to raid *at all*. I'm sure you can picture the Venn diagram yourself. In contrast, an easy mode access would be pretty much mass production. The situation would change from "maybe a handful of the sets you ever saw were bought" to "you occasionally see a set that was earned by actual raiding". It's a stark difference, isn't it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > >Nothing you've said has been reasonable. > > Then why not present arguments against what I *said,* rather than having to *make up* positions for you to be outraged over? > > >You want the rewards from raiding on an easier difficulty. That's fantasy and isn't going to happen. > > Why not? You can get dungeon rewards from PvP, you can get LS rewards by spending log-in laurels, there's plenty of precedent for once-exclusive rewards being made available via alternate, often easier methods. > > >No sane developer is going to even remotely consider it. > > Then nobody needs you pointing that out. If there's no chance of them doing it, then there's nothing for you for worry about. > > >Even if on the off chance they give in and create an easy mode it will have it's own subsection with its own achievements which in no way allow you to work toward legendary armor. > > Maybe, but again, that would only be half a solution, and they would need to work out a *completely different* solution for how to get the Envoy armor to people who don't raid. It just seems like a wasted opportunity to me, it's like saying "well, we have all this food that'll go to waste if we don't cook it, and we have all those hungry people over there, so. . . let's cook up the food and then throw it in the trash, and *then* order take-out for all those hungry people!" > > >So you want a mid ground, that's your mid ground. Suggesting anything else is unreasonable which is why people keep telling you such. It's why people showcase your own position as absurd and why we keep using equally ludicrous analogies because you refuse to see how bad your proposal is but somehow when we take it from 10 to 11 you suddenly fight back. > > Well see, nobody *is* showcasing *my* positions as absurd. They *claim* that my position is absurd, but when pushed to back up that claim, to make a reasonable case as to *why* my position is "so absurd," the best they can do is to make up completely *new* positions for me to hold, and then claim that *those* are absurd. Well I'm sorry, but I have no control over not-me. If I were as wrong as you insist I am, then you could argue back against *me,* rather than against some abstract boogeyman. We've gone over why you're wrong countless times. You refuse to listen. Unique rewards exist in every mode. Raiding was meant for people who desire a challenge You are not the target demographic and that's perfectly fine, even devs think so. Now then instead of being the change my mind meme guy how about being reasonable yourself before demanding others do so of you. You want a reasonable discussion argue from a reasonable position, not the most extremely biased and unqualified position you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Well, i tried to go out of my comfort zone and come up with something. I hope you know that before hot players were leaving because here was no endgame content and you are trying to make the highest of endgame content easier. > > That's actually a myth. Players were not "leaving before HoT because there was no endgame." There was plenty of endgame. Now some people left *relatively early* in GW2's lifespan because it didn't have the hardcore content they expected, but that's a natural part of MMOs, they find their level. People who were still around by HoT's launch were likely to keep sticking around a while, and just wanted to see *more* content, not *harder* content. > > >I dont know if you relise how many players will leave this game if they had nothing to work for when everything could be done multiple ways or with shorter time. > > Again, what I propose would not take shorter time, and adding multiple methods of unlocking things would not lead to players leaving sooner. All this would do it take items that are currently NEVER available to many players, and give them a path towards earning them, IF they put in the time and effort to do so. It's not *reducing* the goals in the game in any way, it's *increasing* the available goals for most players. > > >Well i think its great because that means if you comit to one gaemode you have reward for it. > > But what's the benefit to that? If you enjoy that game mode but don't care for that item, then you don't get anything great out of it. If you don't enjoy that game mode but want that item, then you won't be able to get it. It's better to reward players for playing the game modes they *enjoy* playing. > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > To chime in on the amount of time you need, you still need to get your provisioner tokens. Show of hands, who here has 300 of those? I started to farm for mine after I got all my li, worst part of the journey, far worse than any of the boss fights. > > And that part would remain in place. I don't have any, because I currently have no purpose for them, but if I had a purpose for them, I would start working towards them, same as you. > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > It is happening, but it's an exception. Besides, nobody buys it *all*, like I've said before. 150 LI is way too much to buy and it would cost a fortune. People who got enough for the armor actually raided and made their effort. > > Astral ran the numbers and it was actually less than a thousand bucks. More than I'd want to spend on a game, obviously, but a drop in the bucket in whale terms. I'm sure there are plenty of people who have done just that. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > If you want to "cheat" your legendary armor go for it and buy raids. I dont care. Everyone has that option. But dont expect me help you "cheat". > > Also raid selling legendary armor cost alot. That is huge investment and player that bought it shows that he rly wanted it. Players that want diferent path dont want it as much as those that are willing to raid for it or buy it now. > > So to you, "play well" OR "spend money" are equally valid ways of acquiring the armor, but "play just as long in an easier mode" is not equally valid as "spend money to be carried?" That's just. . . sad. > > > @"Malediktus.9250" said: > > > @"Laila Lightness.8742" said: > > > If easy mode it should give same reward as hard mode too make it fair challenge should be optional not more rewarding > > > > People go path of least resistance, it is pointless to have multiple diffculties with the same reward. Just like noone does CMs more than once unless they are selling or helping a good friend. > > And I actually agree on this. The easy mode *should* have the rewards scaled back so that hard mode is more *efficient.* There just shouldn't be any hard barriers of things that you can *never* earn via the easy mode. No they are not equal but they exist. For me Raid to get L.A. >> relise you cannot get it nornal way but you still need it so you buy it >> you dont want to raid for it but tge other way to get it is too high so you want to get it easier way than those 2. Also if it is 1000 bucks ( i asume you mean dolars) is using exchange rates month avarage salary in my country. If someone wants to throw it at legendary armor i wont have probkem with that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > Even if somebody has, it's an insignificant number of players. According to gw2efficiency, my current 13k wallet gold is higher than what 99% of the accounts have, and I'm fairly sure 13k would not be enough to buy your way from zero to the full first set. That may be true, but with a few important things to keep in mind. 1. A "casual whale," someone who plays casually but isn't afraid to pour money to get what they want, might not care enough to participate in GW2 Efficiency, which is more often a metric of gameplay achievement. I'm not sure what the bias would be for something like that. 2. A casual whale might only convert the money he needs, if it he intends to spend 15K gold on armor, he might not *have* 15k gold in his account, he might have way less than that, because he converted thousands, but then spent it. 3. #2 also would apply to any non-whales who do this sort of thing, they might be gold-poor but account-rich due to having spent what gold they have to get things, like raid runs. Not that WP buys raid runs, but he's frequently fairly cash poor, because he constantly spends it on things, but over the course of the game he's probably had 100K gold or more pass *through* his accounts. 4. Even setting all of that aside, if there are currently 183,920 accounts being tracked, even 1% of them would still be 1,839 accounts at that tier, and that could represent a *lot* of raid runs, if there is a market for such things. Apparent the top half-percenters are over 17K, and the top half-percent of "no-lifers" have over 30K in liquid gold alone. >In contrast, an easy mode access would be pretty much mass production. The situation would change from "maybe a handful of the sets you ever saw were bought" to "you occasionally see a set that was earned by actual raiding". It's a stark difference, isn't it? Sounds wonderful, think of how many more happy players would be running around in Legendary armor. I mean, even by your own estimation it would greatly improve things for the average player. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > Unique rewards exist in every mode. *Many* modes, but some have none, or offer alternate methods of earning them. Even so, of all the "unique rewards" in the game, raids have far in the way the highest ratio of "barrier of entry" vs. "interest to the average player," so no, "whataboutism" is not a compelling argument here. If other modes have unique rewards, that's reason to fix *that* problem, not a reason to *not* fix this one. >Raiding was meant for people who desire a challenge Sure, and the hard mode will continue to serve that function. This will be something else, intended for someone else. >You are not the target demographic and that's perfectly fine, even devs think so. Agreed. I'm the target demographic for the easy mode I'm advocating for. >Now then instead of being the change my mind meme guy how about being reasonable yourself before demanding others do so of you. I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. There's a saying for this phenomenon in my country: "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds of them!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > *Many* modes, but some have none, or offer alternate methods of earning them. Even so, of all the "unique rewards" in the game, raids have far in the way the highest ratio of "barrier of entry" vs. "interest to the average player," so no, "whataboutism" is not a compelling argument here. If other modes have unique rewards, that's reason to fix *that* problem, not a reason to *not* fix this one. > > Sure, and the hard mode will continue to serve that function. This will be something else, intended for someone else. > > Agreed. I'm the target demographic for the easy mode I'm advocating for. > > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. There's no whataboutism being used. That's a nice fallacious argument you're trying to present though. The standard of this games design shows up that the harder the challenge the greater the rewards. You want a lower challenge, you get less. It also shows us that every mode of play has unique rewards. There is no debate to be had here. You cannot get PvP Legendary armor anywhere other than PvP same for its backpiece. This is further evidenced by WvW and PvE having their own unique sets too. Welcome to game design, you not liking it is not a reason to change it. Your position hinges solely on your enjoyment to which all we can say is, that's not quantitative enough to make a change and is irrational at best. Your something else, is something else indeed. It's a waste of resources so that your innate greed or need for shiny can be fulfilled without putting in the effort others already have. You're not the target demographic for even an easy mode. There are people out there with legitimate gameplay concerns that dont revolve around your need for a new shiny armor. At then end of the day, all of your arguments come down to "Yes, but i need". How about No. Either you need an easy mode or you desire the rewards and should like a reasonable person earn them in the mode of play they exist in. I'm perfectly capable of saying an easy mode can exist, without the rewards. In fact i've said it twice in this thread alone. You just wont accept it being you have an irrational and illogical desire to have the shiny without working toward it like others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." Presumably they *enjoy* whatever it is that they do in the game, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that one of these things is playing raids. > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. > There's a saying for this phenomenon in my country: "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds of them!" Ha! Exactly, yeah. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > There's no whataboutism being used. That's a nice fallacious argument you're trying to present though. You said "Unique rewards exist in every mode," that is *literally* "whataboutism. It's trying to make the claim that because other modes jumped off a cliff, it's ok that raids do too. >The standard of this games design shows up that the harder the challenge the greater the rewards. You want a lower challenge, you get less. But that's not true at all. There are plenty of great rewards in this game that involve little or no challenge. Any idiot can get The Ascension, for example, and that's one of the "highest value" backpieces in the game. There's relatively little challenge in getting Legendary weapons either, any of them, especially if you go the TP route, but even if you earn every material, it's mostly just collection and grind. Actually almost none of the greatest rewards this game has to offer involve any sort of challenge. The highest challenge-related items, outside of raids, would be, what, the mini-Liadri and the Mad Kings Boots, maybe? The former is just a fairly meh mini, it's got nothing on my Stuffed Griffon mini, and the Mad Kings Boots are pretty standard exotic boots, you can craft your own pair if you want, and even before you could do that they were just generics. There is no evidence that challenge in *any* way correlates to reward quality. >It also shows us that every mode of play has unique rewards. There is no debate to be had here. And again, there are relatively few of those that are *truly* unique to a mode, and again, "whataboutism." Two wrong don't make a right, just because other modes have unique items doesn't mean that they should. >You cannot get PvP Legendary armor anywhere other than PvP same for its backpiece. This is further evidenced by WvW and PvE having their own unique sets too. PvP and WvW Legendary armors have no skins. They are functionally identical to each other, and functionally identical to the raid ones, just without getting a skin unlock for earning them. The only reason they aren't a single set of armor likely comes down to efficiency in coding how you acquire each of them, but it's like claiming that you can't earn CoF Dungeon armor in PvP and you can't earn CoF Dungeon *Track* armor in PvE. >Welcome to game design, you not liking it is not a reason to change it. Your position hinges solely on your enjoyment to which all we can say is, that's not quantitative enough to make a change and is irrational at best. Ok, so then what? >Your something else, is something else indeed. It's a waste of resources so that your innate greed or need for shiny can be fulfilled without putting in the effort others already have. And? It's a game, why shouldn't players want to have the things they want to have, and seek out ways to acquire them that they would enjoy doing? >You're not the target demographic for even an easy mode. There are people out there with legitimate gameplay concerns that dont revolve around your need for a new shiny armor. At then end of the day, all of your arguments come down to "Yes, but i need". How about No. Either you need an easy mode or you desire the rewards and should like a reasonable person earn them in the mode of play they exist in. I want both. I think you'll find that most players who want either would also want both. That's by no means an unreasonable position to hold. I want to play an easy mode, I also want to earn Envoy armor. What I do *not* want is to ever have to play more of the current difficulty of raids, because I will never enjoy that, and if I'm playing a game, then I should be enjoying myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, then I explore why that is, and try to correct it. This, right here, is the solution I've come to, and the solutions *you* so "helpfully* suggest, would not achieve that goal, so thank you, but no. >I'm perfectly capable of saying an easy mode can exist, without the rewards. In fact i've said it twice in this thread alone. And that's fine, but it only covers half the problem. It's like saying "you can have walls, but not a roof." If easy mode can exist, but without rewards, then you need to come up with a better solution for getting the rewards, without having to do the current raids. >You just wont accept it being you have an irrational and illogical desire to have the shiny without working toward it like others do. What's more irrational and illogical about holding *that* position, than it is to hold the position that *other* players should *not* be allowed to have those rewards unless they are willing to engage in content that they will not enjoy? I can't imagine how someone would believe the latter to be the *more* rational or logical position to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." Right. At the current conversion rate, it takes over 75k gems to buy 15k gold. 1000 euro for an armor skin? Yeah, I somehow don't think a statistically significant number of people would be willing to even consider that. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." > > Right. At the current conversion rate, it takes over 75k gems to buy 15k gold. 1000 euro for an armor skin? Yeah, I somehow don't think a statistically significant number of people would be willing to even consider that. :lol: Clearly you do not follow the mobile game market. At all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." Presumably they *enjoy* whatever it is that they do in the game, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that one of these things is playing raids. > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. > > There's a saying for this phenomenon in my country: "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds of them!" > > Ha! Exactly, yeah. > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > There's no whataboutism being used. That's a nice fallacious argument you're trying to present though. > > You said "Unique rewards exist in every mode," that is *literally* "whataboutism. It's trying to make the claim that because other modes jumped off a cliff, it's ok that raids do too. > > >The standard of this games design shows up that the harder the challenge the greater the rewards. You want a lower challenge, you get less. > > But that's not true at all. There are plenty of great rewards in this game that involve little or no challenge. Any idiot can get The Ascension, for example, and that's one of the "highest value" backpieces in the game. There's relatively little challenge in getting Legendary weapons either, any of them, especially if you go the TP route, but even if you earn every material, it's mostly just collection and grind. Actually almost none of the greatest rewards this game has to offer involve any sort of challenge. The highest challenge-related items, outside of raids, would be, what, the mini-Liadri and the Mad Kings Boots, maybe? The former is just a fairly meh mini, it's got nothing on my Stuffed Griffon mini, and the Mad Kings Boots are pretty standard exotic boots, you can craft your own pair if you want, and even before you could do that they were just generics. There is no evidence that challenge in *any* way correlates to reward quality. > > >It also shows us that every mode of play has unique rewards. There is no debate to be had here. > > And again, there are relatively few of those that are *truly* unique to a mode, and again, "whataboutism." Two wrong don't make a right, just because other modes have unique items doesn't mean that they should. > > >You cannot get PvP Legendary armor anywhere other than PvP same for its backpiece. This is further evidenced by WvW and PvE having their own unique sets too. > > PvP and WvW Legendary armors have no skins. They are functionally identical to each other, and functionally identical to the raid ones, just without getting a skin unlock for earning them. The only reason they aren't a single set of armor likely comes down to efficiency in coding how you acquire each of them, but it's like claiming that you can't earn CoF Dungeon armor in PvP and you can't earn CoF Dungeon *Track* armor in PvE. > > >Welcome to game design, you not liking it is not a reason to change it. Your position hinges solely on your enjoyment to which all we can say is, that's not quantitative enough to make a change and is irrational at best. > > Ok, so then what? > > >Your something else, is something else indeed. It's a waste of resources so that your innate greed or need for shiny can be fulfilled without putting in the effort others already have. > > And? It's a game, why shouldn't players want to have the things they want to have, and seek out ways to acquire them that they would enjoy doing? > > >You're not the target demographic for even an easy mode. There are people out there with legitimate gameplay concerns that dont revolve around your need for a new shiny armor. At then end of the day, all of your arguments come down to "Yes, but i need". How about No. Either you need an easy mode or you desire the rewards and should like a reasonable person earn them in the mode of play they exist in. > > I want both. I think you'll find that most players who want either would also want both. That's by no means an unreasonable position to hold. I want to play an easy mode, I also want to earn Envoy armor. What I do *not* want is to ever have to play more of the current difficulty of raids, because I will never enjoy that, and if I'm playing a game, then I should be enjoying myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, then I explore why that is, and try to correct it. This, right here, is the solution I've come to, and the solutions *you* so "helpfully* suggest, would not achieve that goal, so thank you, but no. > > >I'm perfectly capable of saying an easy mode can exist, without the rewards. In fact i've said it twice in this thread alone. > > And that's fine, but it only covers half the problem. It's like saying "you can have walls, but not a roof." If easy mode can exist, but without rewards, then you need to come up with a better solution for getting the rewards, without having to do the current raids. > > >You just wont accept it being you have an irrational and illogical desire to have the shiny without working toward it like others do. > > What's more irrational and illogical about holding *that* position, than it is to hold the position that *other* players should *not* be allowed to have those rewards unless they are willing to engage in content that they will not enjoy? I can't imagine how someone would believe the latter to be the *more* rational or logical position to take. This is not rasism. We dont exclude anyone from raidscand from legendary armor. The fact that you chosen not to do raids is on you. You were given an option to get legendary armor and you decided it is not worth your effort. Thats resonable. I myself decided that i will never craft core game legendary because i dont want to play core open world. And btw i could buy core legendary for gold same as you can buy raid armor for gold. We both have similar options even when we play diferently. The diference is that you decided that you want the reward but dont want to work for it. Example: new book cost 1000. I would like to read this book but is not worth 1000 for me so i dont buy it. Raid buyer is someone who cannot pay 1000 but makes a deal with book seller that he will work there free for half a year to get it. You also think that it is not worth 1000 gold for you so you orginase a protest so those books are sold at 200. Edit: there is no other half is not a problem because there is no problem to begin with. You want something but dont want to pay full price Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > > > > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." > > > > Right. At the current conversion rate, it takes over 75k gems to buy 15k gold. 1000 euro for an armor skin? Yeah, I somehow don't think a statistically significant number of people would be willing to even consider that. :lol: > > Clearly you do not follow the mobile game market. > > At all. I didn't know GW2 is a mobile game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Some people probably would like to make it one. Dreams just got ahead of reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." Presumably they *enjoy* whatever it is that they do in the game, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that one of these things is playing raids. > > > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. > > > There's a saying for this phenomenon in my country: "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds of them!" > > > > Ha! Exactly, yeah. > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > There's no whataboutism being used. That's a nice fallacious argument you're trying to present though. > > > > You said "Unique rewards exist in every mode," that is *literally* "whataboutism. It's trying to make the claim that because other modes jumped off a cliff, it's ok that raids do too. > > > > >The standard of this games design shows up that the harder the challenge the greater the rewards. You want a lower challenge, you get less. > > > > But that's not true at all. There are plenty of great rewards in this game that involve little or no challenge. Any idiot can get The Ascension, for example, and that's one of the "highest value" backpieces in the game. There's relatively little challenge in getting Legendary weapons either, any of them, especially if you go the TP route, but even if you earn every material, it's mostly just collection and grind. Actually almost none of the greatest rewards this game has to offer involve any sort of challenge. The highest challenge-related items, outside of raids, would be, what, the mini-Liadri and the Mad Kings Boots, maybe? The former is just a fairly meh mini, it's got nothing on my Stuffed Griffon mini, and the Mad Kings Boots are pretty standard exotic boots, you can craft your own pair if you want, and even before you could do that they were just generics. There is no evidence that challenge in *any* way correlates to reward quality. > > > > >It also shows us that every mode of play has unique rewards. There is no debate to be had here. > > > > And again, there are relatively few of those that are *truly* unique to a mode, and again, "whataboutism." Two wrong don't make a right, just because other modes have unique items doesn't mean that they should. > > > > >You cannot get PvP Legendary armor anywhere other than PvP same for its backpiece. This is further evidenced by WvW and PvE having their own unique sets too. > > > > PvP and WvW Legendary armors have no skins. They are functionally identical to each other, and functionally identical to the raid ones, just without getting a skin unlock for earning them. The only reason they aren't a single set of armor likely comes down to efficiency in coding how you acquire each of them, but it's like claiming that you can't earn CoF Dungeon armor in PvP and you can't earn CoF Dungeon *Track* armor in PvE. > > > > >Welcome to game design, you not liking it is not a reason to change it. Your position hinges solely on your enjoyment to which all we can say is, that's not quantitative enough to make a change and is irrational at best. > > > > Ok, so then what? > > > > >Your something else, is something else indeed. It's a waste of resources so that your innate greed or need for shiny can be fulfilled without putting in the effort others already have. > > > > And? It's a game, why shouldn't players want to have the things they want to have, and seek out ways to acquire them that they would enjoy doing? > > > > >You're not the target demographic for even an easy mode. There are people out there with legitimate gameplay concerns that dont revolve around your need for a new shiny armor. At then end of the day, all of your arguments come down to "Yes, but i need". How about No. Either you need an easy mode or you desire the rewards and should like a reasonable person earn them in the mode of play they exist in. > > > > I want both. I think you'll find that most players who want either would also want both. That's by no means an unreasonable position to hold. I want to play an easy mode, I also want to earn Envoy armor. What I do *not* want is to ever have to play more of the current difficulty of raids, because I will never enjoy that, and if I'm playing a game, then I should be enjoying myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, then I explore why that is, and try to correct it. This, right here, is the solution I've come to, and the solutions *you* so "helpfully* suggest, would not achieve that goal, so thank you, but no. > > > > >I'm perfectly capable of saying an easy mode can exist, without the rewards. In fact i've said it twice in this thread alone. > > > > And that's fine, but it only covers half the problem. It's like saying "you can have walls, but not a roof." If easy mode can exist, but without rewards, then you need to come up with a better solution for getting the rewards, without having to do the current raids. > > > > >You just wont accept it being you have an irrational and illogical desire to have the shiny without working toward it like others do. > > > > What's more irrational and illogical about holding *that* position, than it is to hold the position that *other* players should *not* be allowed to have those rewards unless they are willing to engage in content that they will not enjoy? I can't imagine how someone would believe the latter to be the *more* rational or logical position to take. > > This is not rasism. We dont exclude anyone from raidscand from legendary armor. The fact that you chosen not to do raids is on you. You were given an option to get legendary armor and you decided it is not worth your effort. Thats resonable. I myself decided that i will never craft core game legendary because i dont want to play core open world. > And btw i could buy core legendary for gold same as you can buy raid armor for gold. > > We both have similar options even when we play diferently. The diference is that you decided that you want the reward but dont want to work for it. > > Example: new book cost 1000. I would like to read this book but is not worth 1000 for me so i dont buy it. > Raid buyer is someone who cannot pay 1000 but makes a deal with book seller that he will work there free for half a year to get it. > You also think that it is not worth 1000 gold for you so you orginase a protest so those books are sold at 200. Actually the issue with raids is that the ONLY choice currently is a difficulty level that is designed for people who can spend long periods of **contiguous** play, thats not 'effort', that's about scheduling. A raider plays this type of raiding and gets the best reward rate for it because its the most difficult, that's fine, however there is absolutely no reason that you would not have a lower level of tuning in a different instance that does not require the same level level of contiguous gameplay, with adjusted reward rates that reflect the lower difficulty, e.g takes 2/2/x times longer to get similar rewards with slightly different skins. Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 Oh, and one more thing regarding the mobile games and money spent on skins. Anyone here thinking ANet sell their own gemstore skins at a much lower price than they could? If there are people like that, stop fooling yourselves. The standard price for an outfit is 700 gems. You can safely assume it is near the optimal price to generate most revenues, because that's what any marketing would try to do. The MMO wouldn't survive if its marketing was off by a factor of *one hundred*. So the price players are willing to pay is in that order of magnitude. And the outliers willing to pay 100x more are very, very few. And by the way, the same holds true for mobile games. You can have higher absolute numbers there, due to the larger customer bases. The percentages will still be extremely low. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CptAurellian.9537 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. The population who _could_ access raids already is 100% of those who have bought HoT and/or PoF. Pretty difficult to increase above 100%. Apart from that, the available statistics make it fairly obvious that any kind of niche content (fractals, PvD, PvP, certainly more) is not played by vast portions of the entire population. That's why it is niche content, by the way. Nevertheless it's highly important to bind sub-populations to the game who'd otherwise quit and not spend any money here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >This is not rasism. We dont exclude anyone from raidscand from legendary armor. The fact that you chosen not to do raids is on you. The fact that I choose not to raid *is* on me. Not question. The fact that I cannot possibly *enjoy* raids, as they are currently balanced, is something I can do nothing about. That is not a choice on my part, it's an immutable reality. So my only "choice" here is that I can either engage in an activity that I *will never enjoy,* or I can choose not to and never have access to armor skins that interest me. Well I'm sorry if I reject *both* of those options as being unsatisfactory, and request a third object, and will continue to do so, in perpetuity. >We both have similar options even when we play diferently. The diference is that you decided that you want the reward but dont want to work for it. No. That is a lie. I have said, *repeatedly,* that I am perfectly willing to work for it. That I *PREFER* working for it to just "buying" it. What I will *not* do it work for it *within* a game mode that I cannot enjoy. That is why I am asking for them to include a game mode that I *could* both work for it AND enjoy the experience. Again, agree, disagree, but please do not lie about my position again. >Example: new book cost 1000. I would like to read this book but is not worth 1000 for me so i dont buy it. >Raid buyer is someone who cannot pay 1000 but makes a deal with book seller that he will work there free for half a year to get it. >You also think that it is not worth 1000 gold for you so you orginase a protest so those books are sold at 200. That example doesn't really relate to anything I've said. My issue has never been with the *cost* of raid-buying. It is with the principle of the thing. I refuse to pay another player to carry me through content. If I'm existing in that content at all, I want to be carrying my own weight. If ANet were to offer the armor in the gem store for the same price as raid-buying, then I might consider that, at least well before I'd pay that to be carried through a raid. But to try and turn your example into something accurate to the situation, say the book does cost $1000, and the bookseller says that if I work there for free for half a year (which depending on the hours involved seems to be *way* below minimum wage), then he'd let me have the book. Well that's one option. But I would also have the option of working someplace else, maybe someplace I'd enjoy more, and get the $1000 that way, and have enough to buy the book. That's what I'm looking for, better options. >Edit: there is no other half is not a problem because there is no problem to begin with. You want something but dont want to pay full price Nope, that's a lie. I am perfectly willing to pay "full price," as in an identical amount of time and effort as any raider, I just want to "spend" that price in a place that I would enjoy as much as raiders enjoy raiding. > @"Feanor.2358" said: > I didn't know GW2 is a mobile game. You clearly have not heard of the Mount Adoption License. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Anyone here thinking ANet sell their own gemstore skins at a much lower price than they could? If there are people like that, stop fooling yourselves. The standard price for an outfit is 700 gems. They certainly could charge more, but it's obviously a balancing act. If you charge 700 gems for an item, then a certain number will buy it. If you charge 1400 for it, you make more per customer, but less will buy it, and so on. Figuring out the best price is trying to figure out the maximum audience, and then scaling the price to get as much as you can out of as many of them as possible, without driving too many away. I feel they've missed the mark in some cases, but they certainly could sell them at a higher price and *some* would still buy them. > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. > > The population who _could_ access raids already is 100% of those who have bought HoT and/or PoF. That's a semantics argument. The theoretical population is completely irrelevant, the only population that matters is the population that *wants* to play them in their current form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > "A casual whale" is also statistically insignificant number, by *definition*. So while the scenario you describe is technically possible, it doesn't change anything at all in regards to the point I made. > > > > > > Not particularly. People willing to spend a lot of money on a game do not necessarily correlate to people who are hardcore in terms of skill. If someone makes enough money to be able to drop thousands on a game, then they don't necessarily have a lot of free time to grind out resources or to "git gud." Presumably they *enjoy* whatever it is that they do in the game, but there's absolutely no reason to assume that one of these things is playing raids. > > > > > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > I've been reasonable this entire time. You just seem incapable of recognizing that because you're unwilling to see the argument from the other side. Anythign short of "leave things how they are" seems automatically "unreasonable" to you. > > > > There's a saying for this phenomenon in my country: "One wrong-way driver? Hundreds of them!" > > > > > > Ha! Exactly, yeah. > > > > > > > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > > > There's no whataboutism being used. That's a nice fallacious argument you're trying to present though. > > > > > > You said "Unique rewards exist in every mode," that is *literally* "whataboutism. It's trying to make the claim that because other modes jumped off a cliff, it's ok that raids do too. > > > > > > >The standard of this games design shows up that the harder the challenge the greater the rewards. You want a lower challenge, you get less. > > > > > > But that's not true at all. There are plenty of great rewards in this game that involve little or no challenge. Any idiot can get The Ascension, for example, and that's one of the "highest value" backpieces in the game. There's relatively little challenge in getting Legendary weapons either, any of them, especially if you go the TP route, but even if you earn every material, it's mostly just collection and grind. Actually almost none of the greatest rewards this game has to offer involve any sort of challenge. The highest challenge-related items, outside of raids, would be, what, the mini-Liadri and the Mad Kings Boots, maybe? The former is just a fairly meh mini, it's got nothing on my Stuffed Griffon mini, and the Mad Kings Boots are pretty standard exotic boots, you can craft your own pair if you want, and even before you could do that they were just generics. There is no evidence that challenge in *any* way correlates to reward quality. > > > > > > >It also shows us that every mode of play has unique rewards. There is no debate to be had here. > > > > > > And again, there are relatively few of those that are *truly* unique to a mode, and again, "whataboutism." Two wrong don't make a right, just because other modes have unique items doesn't mean that they should. > > > > > > >You cannot get PvP Legendary armor anywhere other than PvP same for its backpiece. This is further evidenced by WvW and PvE having their own unique sets too. > > > > > > PvP and WvW Legendary armors have no skins. They are functionally identical to each other, and functionally identical to the raid ones, just without getting a skin unlock for earning them. The only reason they aren't a single set of armor likely comes down to efficiency in coding how you acquire each of them, but it's like claiming that you can't earn CoF Dungeon armor in PvP and you can't earn CoF Dungeon *Track* armor in PvE. > > > > > > >Welcome to game design, you not liking it is not a reason to change it. Your position hinges solely on your enjoyment to which all we can say is, that's not quantitative enough to make a change and is irrational at best. > > > > > > Ok, so then what? > > > > > > >Your something else, is something else indeed. It's a waste of resources so that your innate greed or need for shiny can be fulfilled without putting in the effort others already have. > > > > > > And? It's a game, why shouldn't players want to have the things they want to have, and seek out ways to acquire them that they would enjoy doing? > > > > > > >You're not the target demographic for even an easy mode. There are people out there with legitimate gameplay concerns that dont revolve around your need for a new shiny armor. At then end of the day, all of your arguments come down to "Yes, but i need". How about No. Either you need an easy mode or you desire the rewards and should like a reasonable person earn them in the mode of play they exist in. > > > > > > I want both. I think you'll find that most players who want either would also want both. That's by no means an unreasonable position to hold. I want to play an easy mode, I also want to earn Envoy armor. What I do *not* want is to ever have to play more of the current difficulty of raids, because I will never enjoy that, and if I'm playing a game, then I should be enjoying myself. If I'm not enjoying myself, then I explore why that is, and try to correct it. This, right here, is the solution I've come to, and the solutions *you* so "helpfully* suggest, would not achieve that goal, so thank you, but no. > > > > > > >I'm perfectly capable of saying an easy mode can exist, without the rewards. In fact i've said it twice in this thread alone. > > > > > > And that's fine, but it only covers half the problem. It's like saying "you can have walls, but not a roof." If easy mode can exist, but without rewards, then you need to come up with a better solution for getting the rewards, without having to do the current raids. > > > > > > >You just wont accept it being you have an irrational and illogical desire to have the shiny without working toward it like others do. > > > > > > What's more irrational and illogical about holding *that* position, than it is to hold the position that *other* players should *not* be allowed to have those rewards unless they are willing to engage in content that they will not enjoy? I can't imagine how someone would believe the latter to be the *more* rational or logical position to take. > > > > This is not rasism. We dont exclude anyone from raidscand from legendary armor. The fact that you chosen not to do raids is on you. You were given an option to get legendary armor and you decided it is not worth your effort. Thats resonable. I myself decided that i will never craft core game legendary because i dont want to play core open world. > > And btw i could buy core legendary for gold same as you can buy raid armor for gold. > > > > We both have similar options even when we play diferently. The diference is that you decided that you want the reward but dont want to work for it. > > > > Example: new book cost 1000. I would like to read this book but is not worth 1000 for me so i dont buy it. > > Raid buyer is someone who cannot pay 1000 but makes a deal with book seller that he will work there free for half a year to get it. > > You also think that it is not worth 1000 gold for you so you orginase a protest so those books are sold at 200. > > Actually the issue with raids is that the ONLY choice currently is a difficulty level that is designed for people who can spend long periods of **contiguous** play, thats not 'effort', that's about scheduling. A raider plays this type of raiding and gets the best reward rate for it because its the most difficult, that's fine, however there is absolutely no reason that you would not have a lower level of tuning in a different instance that does not require the same level level of contiguous gameplay, with adjusted reward rates that reflect the lower difficulty, e.g takes 2/2/x times longer to get similar rewards with slightly different skins. Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >Anyone here thinking ANet sell their own gemstore skins at a much lower price than they could? If there are people like that, stop fooling yourselves. The standard price for an outfit is 700 gems. > > They certainly could charge more, but it's obviously a balancing act. If you charge 700 gems for an item, then a certain number will buy it. If you charge 1400 for it, you make more per customer, but less will buy it, and so on. Figuring out the best price is trying to figure out the maximum audience, and then scaling the price to get as much as you can out of as many of them as possible, without driving too many away. I feel they've missed the mark in some cases, but they certainly could sell them at a higher price and *some* would still buy them. > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. > > > > The population who _could_ access raids already is 100% of those who have bought HoT and/or PoF. > > That's a semantics argument. The theoretical population is completely irrelevant, the only population that matters is the population that *wants* to play them in their current form. 15 minutes ago i knew i had like 20 minutes before lunch so i started GW2, went to lfg, look through raids section and saw that one party at VG needs a chrono, jumped in killed the boss and went out. 10 minutes is very long time to play without break. I pity you Ohoni. Looks like you had to be very sad in your life because you dont apritiate what you have. I am sorry but it looks that way. I made peace with the fact that i will not get core legendary and my life went on. Looks like you cannot do that. Raid selling is the same as buying something from a TP in this case. I dont know if you enjoyed school all the time but you still went there. You were rewarded. If you want to be working as a dentist you have to study for it. Noone will hire you if you just finished kindergarden. And thats what you are asking for Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vesica tempestas.1563 Posted April 21, 2018 Share Posted April 21, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >Anyone here thinking ANet sell their own gemstore skins at a much lower price than they could? If there are people like that, stop fooling yourselves. The standard price for an outfit is 700 gems. > > They certainly could charge more, but it's obviously a balancing act. If you charge 700 gems for an item, then a certain number will buy it. If you charge 1400 for it, you make more per customer, but less will buy it, and so on. Figuring out the best price is trying to figure out the maximum audience, and then scaling the price to get as much as you can out of as many of them as possible, without driving too many away. I feel they've missed the mark in some cases, but they certainly could sell them at a higher price and *some* would still buy them. > > > @"CptAurellian.9537" said: > > > @"vesica tempestas.1563" said: > > > Especially when the % of the population who could access this content in a meaningful way would go from 5% to 100%, it would be crazy not to. > > > > The population who _could_ access raids already is 100% of those who have bought HoT and/or PoF. > > That's a semantics argument. The theoretical population is completely irrelevant, the only population that matters is the population that *wants* to play them in their current form. 5% is hardly semantic. Thats 95% of the population who would like to play instances but do not feel like the current raid model (wipe/rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote/wipe/rote) is for them. Evidence? well apart from common sense, you only need to look at EVERY other AAA mmorpg where the majority of the population play casual raids and VASTLY outnumber the niche that want the above style. This is an argument that is 10 years old given by the same people trying to selfishly deny content to the majority to keep something special just for themselves - not the mmorpg spirit and certainly not GW spirit where inclusivity has always been the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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