Please Overhaul Raids.

[Vinceman.4572]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> The arguments against easy mode raids:

>

> 1. It would be an issue if they got same skins as hard mode : thats an obvious given, you would expect normal mode to have different unique skins, both sides want that.

> 2. It would take dev resource away from existing raids: Nope, only 8 devs or so needed to build all the existing raids. Based on this logic you would need only a couple of the other 400 devs to implement easy mode raids which is simply a reconfigured hard mode instance.

> 3. Its not proven people want easier mode raids: Yes it is, apart from common sense (a raid is just an instance) , we can see from other AAA mmorpgs that easy mode raids are MASSIVELY more popular hard mode raids.

> 4. Easy mode raids should not have legendary skins. Wrong, its no different to wvw and pvp, same extended timelines, so hard mode has the advantage of efficiency (as well as their own unique skins)

>

> So, make sure gear is unique and its a gimme, win win for all. The only other arguments are based on selfish intent that should have no home in a mmorpg like GW2 that aims to be casual friendly and inclusive.

 

I don't know how much of this thread (and of others) you have read but even the strongest debaters here have stated that they agree with an easy mode under certain circumstances.

To 1. If that's ok for most of the players they/we are all in for easy mode raids. According to your "both sides want that.", this is not crystal clear. Especially not if you have read the posts of Ohoni.

 

To 2. They/we have already said it's entirely ok if dev resources are not taken away from the actual raid development meaning you have to take them from LS development and therefore increasing the release cycle there. Really, that's no problem for us! On a personal note besides the story I hate those releases more and more because it's only a focus on gathering AP. The replay value is small if we factor things out like farming & acquiring achievements/points.

 

To 3. We don't have numbers about people wanting easy modes. Other AAA MMORPGs have a raid focus in their game. Their story evolves/lives around them that's why they need to bring in all the players otherwise they'll lose their base. But yeah, not an argument for me to not build an easy mode in GW2. I couldn't care less.

 

To 4. Comparable to 1. If Anet would design a different leggy armor for PvE it would be a great thing I suppose. It even needn't to be easy mode linked. An open world collection would also be fine for me (doesn't mean no easy mode ^^)

 

The only thing that has to be taken into account of is the reward balance between easy mode and normal mode raids. If you have a look at the actual rewards and balance an easy mode against those you'll would get too few stuff from them to guarantee that players play an easy mode more than once a.k.a. not wasting game resources. I think the normal mode rewards have to be increased and then there's nothing for me to speak against an easy mode. Still, my only exception is: No envoy armor skins outside of normal mode raids and other raid skins for the easy mode as well.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

>'shrug' If such an oddball exists who has bought his entire envoy armor, that's at least a sign of dedication and perseverance. Skill, probably less so. But still, throwing 10-15k gold at something is a feat in itself.

 

So. . .

 

Clearing the normal raids through your own strength? Good.

 

Clearing the raids with a credit card? Equally as good.

 

Clearing the easier raids through your own strength? Entitled brats.

 

*That* tracks. 8{

 

>While we are at it, could we change one little word in this discussion? When current raids already are easymodes, the stuff demanded by some people should realistically be called "infantile mode". Precise wording is always helpful.

 

You know what the best way to highlight that you're a very mature person in the discussion? . . . Yeah, I assumed not.

 

> @"Linken.6345" said:

>Maybe you should talk with Ohoni.6057 you both want easy mode raids but differ heavily on the rewards said easy mode should give.

 

Everyone wants different things in life. We don't have to agree on every detail of what we each want.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

>

 

One out of many more. Statistically insignificant. See what I mean?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

> >

>

> One out of many more. Statistically insignificant. See what I mean?

 

I said *at least* one, it could be every single person you've seen in Envoy armor that you don't know for a fact earned it. I'm starting to question whether you know how "statistically insignificant" works. It doesn't just refer to a valid point that upsets you.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

> > >

> >

> > One out of many more. Statistically insignificant. See what I mean?

>

> I said *at least* one, it could be every single person you've seen in Envoy armor that you don't know for a fact earned it. I'm starting to question whether you know how "statistically insignificant" works. It doesn't just refer to a valid point that upsets you.

 

Also the random quantum fluctuations could end up arranging the particles next to me in a stunningly beautiful woman who falls in love with me immediately. The chances for both are about the same.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

> > > >

> > >

> > > One out of many more. Statistically insignificant. See what I mean?

> >

> > I said *at least* one, it could be every single person you've seen in Envoy armor that you don't know for a fact earned it. I'm starting to question whether you know how "statistically insignificant" works. It doesn't just refer to a valid point that upsets you.

>

> Also the random quantum fluctuations could end up arranging the particles next to me in a stunningly beautiful woman who falls in love with me immediately. The chances for both are about the same.

 

That is just a disturbing misunderstanding of statistical odds. Do you *genuinely* believe that the two situations are equally likely? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you, which I guarantee is equally likely to be both owned by me and worth well more than I'd sell it for.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Raids are ment to be challange. If raids get easy mode why dont we get hard mode for literaly everything else in the game?

I think that players that chose to do harder content should be rewarded. And our reward is Legendary armor. Other rewards in raids have no value, especialy compared to fractals.

And for my examples. My kc example was my 3rd try of kc. And that VG was arounfd 8th. Obviously my first try wasnt as smoth but after first try where i saw the mechanics next one are much better. Some bosses (MO cairn, VG, escot...) are maximum 2 tries after you already cleared them.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Raids are ment to be challange. If raids get easy mode why dont we get hard mode for literaly everything else in the game?

> I think that players that chose to do harder content should be rewarded. And our reward is Legendary armor. Other rewards in raids have no value, especialy compared to fractals.

> And for my examples. My kc example was my 3rd try of kc. And that VG was arounfd 8th. Obviously my first try wasnt as smoth but after first try where i saw the mechanics next one are much better. Some bosses (MO cairn, VG, escot...) are maximum 2 tries after you already cleared them.

 

raid awards should indeed be unique legendary armor that is recognisable so players get sense of accomplishment and respect from other players.

 

Easy mode would have different legendary armor, looks different enough from above armor and takes much much longer to gather, same as wvw and pvp. Job done.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Raids are ment to be challange. If raids get easy mode why dont we get hard mode for literaly everything else in the game?

 

Philosophically? No reason why not. Sure.

 

Realistically? Because not enough people would want that to justify the effort, a claim that cannot be made against easy mode raids.

 

>I think that players that chose to do harder content should be rewarded.

 

Why?

 

There's an old joke, goes like this. Man pulls into a gas station and asks for a quart of oil. Guy working there says "ok, we've got $5 oil, $10 oil, and $15 oil," the man says "the $10 oil's fine." Worker goes back behind the station, and the man is curious and follows, and sees just one big drum of oil that the worker's pulling from. "Hey, I thought you had three different types!" "Well, some people like their $5 oil, and some their $10 oil, and some the $15, it's all the same to me."

 

You seem to like hard content. That's great, because you've found something you enjoy. But not everyone does. Why do you believe that you're more entitled to rewards for playing how *you* enjoy playing, than someone who enjoys more casual content more? Why is it fair for him to get less reward for playing how he enjoys?

 

Players who enjoy harder content often point to "work" as a justification, but obviously that wouldn't apply. People don't get paid for working harder, some of the hardest jobs out there pay less than some of the easiest. People get paid more for working jobs that are more *in demand,* jobs where the supply of workers willing and able to do it are lower than the demand for those workers. They don't get paid because the work they do is difficult, they get paid because the work *needs to get done.*

 

Nothing *needs* to get done in a game.

 

Games are there to make every customer happy. Games don't care whether anyone raids, games care whether players are *enjoying themselves.* if nobody raids, but everyone is happy, mission accomplished. If players are raiding, but are not *enjoying* themselves as they do so, then the game has failed. Therefore, there is no reason for the developers to give incentives for players to do hard content, only for them to give incentives for players to do they content *they* enjoy.

 

If you *want* to be rewarded more for doing hard content, that's natural, people are selfish creatures, but you are not *entitled* to it, and your desire to be rewarded more for doing harder content does not counteract another player's desire to be rewarded more for doing casual content, nor is it any more valid in any way.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Raids are ment to be challange. If raids get easy mode why dont we get hard mode for literaly everything else in the game?

>

> Philosophically? No reason why not. Sure.

>

> Realistically? Because not enough people would want that to justify the effort, a claim that cannot be made against easy mode raids.

>

> >I think that players that chose to do harder content should be rewarded.

>

> Why?

>

> There's an old joke, goes like this. Man pulls into a gas station and asks for a quart of oil. Guy working there says "ok, we've got $5 oil, $10 oil, and $15 oil," the man says "the $10 oil's fine." Worker goes back behind the station, and the man is curious and follows, and sees just one big drum of oil that the worker's pulling from. "Hey, I thought you had three different types!" "Well, some people like their $5 oil, and some their $10 oil, and some the $15, it's all the same to me."

>

> You seem to like hard content. That's great, because you've found something you enjoy. But not everyone does. Why do you believe that you're more entitled to rewards for playing how *you* enjoy playing, than someone who enjoys more casual content more? Why is it fair for him to get less reward for playing how he enjoys?

>

> Players who enjoy harder content often point to "work" as a justification, but obviously that wouldn't apply. People don't get paid for working harder, some of the hardest jobs out there pay less than some of the easiest. People get paid more for working jobs that are more *in demand,* jobs where the supply of workers willing and able to do it are lower than the demand for those workers. They don't get paid because the work they do is difficult, they get paid because the work *needs to get done.*

>

> Nothing *needs* to get done in a game.

>

> Games are there to make every customer happy. Games don't care whether anyone raids, games care whether players are *enjoying themselves.* if nobody raids, but everyone is happy, mission accomplished. If players are raiding, but are not *enjoying* themselves as they do so, then the game has failed. Therefore, there is no reason for the developers to give incentives for players to do hard content, only for them to give incentives for players to do they content *they* enjoy.

>

> If you *want* to be rewarded more for doing hard content, that's natural, people are selfish creatures, but you are not *entitled* to it, and your desire to be rewarded more for doing harder content does not counteract another player's desire to be rewarded more for doing casual content, nor is it any more valid in any way.

 

agree 100%, as an additional point I think its reasonable to say that easy mode rewards would take much much longer and ofc has different skins, I think that feels fair and intuitive.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Raids are ment to be challange. If raids get easy mode why dont we get hard mode for literaly everything else in the game?

> >

> > Philosophically? No reason why not. Sure.

> >

> > Realistically? Because not enough people would want that to justify the effort, a claim that cannot be made against easy mode raids.

> >

> > >I think that players that chose to do harder content should be rewarded.

> >

> > Why?

> >

> > There's an old joke, goes like this. Man pulls into a gas station and asks for a quart of oil. Guy working there says "ok, we've got $5 oil, $10 oil, and $15 oil," the man says "the $10 oil's fine." Worker goes back behind the station, and the man is curious and follows, and sees just one big drum of oil that the worker's pulling from. "Hey, I thought you had three different types!" "Well, some people like their $5 oil, and some their $10 oil, and some the $15, it's all the same to me."

> >

> > You seem to like hard content. That's great, because you've found something you enjoy. But not everyone does. Why do you believe that you're more entitled to rewards for playing how *you* enjoy playing, than someone who enjoys more casual content more? Why is it fair for him to get less reward for playing how he enjoys?

> >

> > Players who enjoy harder content often point to "work" as a justification, but obviously that wouldn't apply. People don't get paid for working harder, some of the hardest jobs out there pay less than some of the easiest. People get paid more for working jobs that are more *in demand,* jobs where the supply of workers willing and able to do it are lower than the demand for those workers. They don't get paid because the work they do is difficult, they get paid because the work *needs to get done.*

> >

> > Nothing *needs* to get done in a game.

> >

> > Games are there to make every customer happy. Games don't care whether anyone raids, games care whether players are *enjoying themselves.* if nobody raids, but everyone is happy, mission accomplished. If players are raiding, but are not *enjoying* themselves as they do so, then the game has failed. Therefore, there is no reason for the developers to give incentives for players to do hard content, only for them to give incentives for players to do they content *they* enjoy.

> >

> > If you *want* to be rewarded more for doing hard content, that's natural, people are selfish creatures, but you are not *entitled* to it, and your desire to be rewarded more for doing harder content does not counteract another player's desire to be rewarded more for doing casual content, nor is it any more valid in any way.

>

> agree 100%, as an additional point I think its reasonable to say that easy mode rewards would take much much longer and ofc has different skins, I think that feels fair and intuitive.

 

Hers another one, I sometimes play really really complex board games, and sometimes i play simple games. The reward i get from both is pleasure, The complex one is not the 'best' here its just offers a different type of experience.

 

[Dzjudz.9142]

Ohoni what raids would be easy enough for you to consider 'easy mode' that could earn you legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 2.0 who comes along and says the 'easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'super easy mode' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 3.0 who then comes along and says 'super easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'log in to receive legendary armor' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And so on.

 

There's obviously no easy way to balance raids around the whole population of Guild Wars 2. For some people the current raids are already very easy (for example my guild can low man every single challenge in raids, including Dhuum CM, and some bosses we can 6 man or lower). For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it. For some people raids are too hard. However, when I have a guildie who plays with one arm and who is able to clear the bosses as chronomancer, I have to wonder who those people are.

 

I can't get The Ascension because I don't play PvP because I don't like it. I don't want an 'easy mode' PvP for me to earn it.

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> Ohoni what raids would be easy enough for you to consider 'easy mode' that could earn you legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 2.0 who comes along and says the 'easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'super easy mode' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 3.0 who then comes along and says 'super easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'log in to receive legendary armor' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And so on.

>

> There's obviously no easy way to balance raids around the whole population of Guild Wars 2. For some people the current raids are already very easy (for example my guild can low man every single challenge in raids, including Dhuum CM, and some bosses we can 6 man or lower). For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it. For some people raids are too hard. However, when I have a guildie who plays with one arm and who is able to clear the bosses as chronomancer, I have to wonder who those people are.

>

> I can't get The Ascension because I don't play PvP because I don't like it. I don't want an 'easy mode' PvP for me to earn it.

 

again, there's a reason why normal mode raids are MASSIVELY more successful than hard mode in every other AAA mmorpg, and its no coincidence the majority of players don't like the current raid format. To put it simple existing raids drive the following rote gameplay style: practice a single strategy/wipe/practice a single strategy/wipe/and on and on and on. Some of us have been playing that styles since the beginning of the century, it gets dull after a while trust me. We do however enjoy 10 man instances that are more relaxed, there's a lot of fun there and its puggable. Re rewards, your forgetting time and skins are all unique per 'skill' scenario. easy = 10 times more time effort v hard etc etc solves the issues you refer to (that's what we do for wvw/pvp etc)

 

Another way to look at it is this, if you love PVE but don't love the existing niche style of raiding then you have no way of gaining legendary armor through PVE. That's a failing, and its a failing affecting the majority of the player base.

[Dzjudz.9142]

> @"vesica tempestas.1563" said:

> > @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> > Ohoni what raids would be easy enough for you to consider 'easy mode' that could earn you legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 2.0 who comes along and says the 'easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'super easy mode' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 3.0 who then comes along and says 'super easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'log in to receive legendary armor' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And so on.

> >

> > There's obviously no easy way to balance raids around the whole population of Guild Wars 2. For some people the current raids are already very easy (for example my guild can low man every single challenge in raids, including Dhuum CM, and some bosses we can 6 man or lower). For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it. For some people raids are too hard. However, when I have a guildie who plays with one arm and who is able to clear the bosses as chronomancer, I have to wonder who those people are.

> >

> > I can't get The Ascension because I don't play PvP because I don't like it. I don't want an 'easy mode' PvP for me to earn it.

>

> again, there's a reason why normal mode raids are MASSIVELY more successful than hard mode in every other AAA mmorpg, and its no coincidence the majority of players don't like the current raid format. To put it simple existing raids drive the following rote gameplay style: practice a single strategy/wipe/practice a single strategy/wipe/and on and on and on. Some of us have been playing that styles since the beginning of the century, it gets dull after a while trust me. We do however enjoy 10 man instances that are more relaxed, there's a lot of fun there and its puggable. Re rewards, your forgetting time and skins are all unique per 'skill' scenario. easy = 10 times more time effort v hard etc etc solves the issues you refer to (that's what we do for wvw/pvp etc)

>

> Another way to look at it is this, if you love PVE but don't love the existing niche style of raiding then you have no way of gaining legendary armor through PVE. That's a failing, and its a failing affecting the majority of the player base.

 

That didn't actually answer any of my questions. Also, I would argue that GW2 currently doesn't even have 'hard mode' raids.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> Ohoni what raids would be easy enough for you to consider 'easy mode' that could earn you legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 2.0 who comes along and says the 'easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'super easy mode' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 3.0 who then comes along and says 'super easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'log in to receive legendary armor' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And so on.

 

I would say that's a slippery slope argument.

 

To pretend for a moment that the question was asked in good faith, my benchmark for "easy mode" is that it would be something that a random pug of 10 strangers, with no voice chat, no previous experience in the encounter, no meta builds or coordinated team comps, etc., would stand a pretty decent chance of beating the encounter on their first or second try. If at least a few of the members had some previous experience or had checked a guide and knew the basic mechanics, then the odds of clearing it would shoot way up. The difficulty would be balanced against other content in the game, such as dungeons and story missions, and therefore should be suitable to the overwhelming majority of the players.

 

As for the hypothetical "Ohoni 2.0+" types, they are irrelevant. The current raids are only played by what appears to be around a 1/4 of the game's population, likely well less than that. This easy mode's goal would be to open it up to the overwhelming majority of players, making it something that 90%+ could reasonably complete on their own, and the remaining 10% could be carried along without being an unnecessary burden on the rest. Nobody should end up left out. *IF* any other people felt it was still too hard, then I'm sorry, but *enough* people would have already been satisfied that it would be unfeasible to accommodate them. This isn't about pleasing everyone, because that's impossible, it would be about pleasing *the overwhelming majority of players,* which *is* achievable.

 

>For some people the current raids are already very easy (for example my guild can low man every single challenge in raids, including Dhuum CM, and some bosses we can 6 man or lower).

 

For those players, they are already covered by the existing raids. No action needs to be taken there.

 

>For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it.

 

That is objectively untrue, since most people do not participate in raids.

 

>For some people raids are too hard. However, when I have a guildie who plays with one arm and who is able to clear the bosses as chronomancer, I have to wonder who those people are.

 

People with two arms who aren't as skilled, or just not as interested in difficult content as your friend. Don't insult your friend by assuming anyone with two arms should automatically be superior to him.

 

>I can't get The Ascension because I don't play PvP because I don't like it. I don't want an 'easy mode' PvP for me to earn it.

 

That's fine, if that's what makes you happy, but if another player did want an "easy mode" PvP to be able to earn it, or wanted some other method of acquiring it, then that's fine too. You being fine with something doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong for not being fine with it.

[Dzjudz.9142]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> > Ohoni what raids would be easy enough for you to consider 'easy mode' that could earn you legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 2.0 who comes along and says the 'easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'super easy mode' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And what would you say to Ohoni 3.0 who then comes along and says 'super easy mode' raids are too difficult and demands 'log in to receive legendary armor' raids that could earn him legendary armor? And so on.

>

> I would say that's a slippery slope argument.

 

Yes of course it's a slippery slope argument, it's supposed to mirror your argument.

 

> To pretend for a moment that the question was asked in good faith, my benchmark for "easy mode" is that it would be something that a random pug of 10 strangers, with no voice chat, no previous experience in the encounter, no meta builds or coordinated team comps, etc., would stand a pretty decent chance of beating the encounter on their first or second try. If at least a few of the members had some previous experience or had checked a guide and knew the basic mechanics, then the odds of clearing it would shoot way up. The difficulty would be balanced against other content in the game, such as dungeons and story missions, and therefore should be suitable to the overwhelming majority of the players.

 

Random 10 people can complete on their first try? That would have to involve absolutely zero wipe mechanics, zero down mechanics, zero strategical decisionmaking, zero support mechanics, etc. It would have to be laughably easy without any challenge.

 

> As for the hypothetical "Ohoni 2.0+" types, they are irrelevant. The current raids are only played by what appears to be around a 1/4 of the game's population, likely well less than that. This easy mode's goal would be to open it up to the overwhelming majority of players, making it something that 90%+ could reasonably complete on their own, and the remaining 10% could be carried along without being an unnecessary burden on the rest. Nobody should end up left out. *IF* any other people felt it was still too hard, then I'm sorry, but *enough* people would have already been satisfied that it would be unfeasible to accommodate them. This isn't about pleasing everyone, because that's impossible, it would be about pleasing *the overwhelming majority of players,* which *is* achievable.

 

I mean, you are pulling numbers out of thin air. I get that you are feeling left out with the current state of raids, but I and others will tell you that it's already the case that nobody has to feel left out because raids are easily learned and trained with training discords/groups, or even training LFGs. Remember, that's how we all got started! It's all much easier now with a wealth of knowledge about every boss and every mechanic and the availability of expert training guilds/discords.

 

> >For some people the current raids are already very easy (for example my guild can low man every single challenge in raids, including Dhuum CM, and some bosses we can 6 man or lower).

>

> For those players, they are already covered by the existing raids. No action needs to be taken there.

 

I'm using that as an argument that regular raids are very

 

> >For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it.

>

> That is objectively untrue, since most people do not participate in raids.

 

I guess I should have specified "most people participating"

 

> >For some people raids are too hard. However, when I have a guildie who plays with one arm and who is able to clear the bosses as chronomancer, I have to wonder who those people are.

>

> People with two arms who aren't as skilled, or just not as interested in difficult content as your friend. Don't insult your friend by assuming anyone with two arms should automatically be superior to him.

 

No insult intended, she knows she has limited limb functionality I'm sure.

 

> >I can't get The Ascension because I don't play PvP because I don't like it. I don't want an 'easy mode' PvP for me to earn it.

>

> That's fine, if that's what makes you happy, but if another player did want an "easy mode" PvP to be able to earn it, or wanted some other method of acquiring it, then that's fine too. You being fine with something doesn't mean that everyone else is wrong for not being fine with it.

 

And I guess it's the same idea, you're fine for wanting no-effort raids, but it's also fine for devs not wasting their time with this slippery slope.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

> > >

> > > Not true at all.

> > >

> > > Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> > > With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

> > > Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

> > >

> >

> > This happens in pugs anyways, what the point?

>

> Raids aren't designed as an activity for Pugs. Not sure why that's even being used as a defense.

Because your argument is _meant_ for pug groups only. Statics won't be queuing anyway, because they already have a group.

But if pugs don't matter, and statics won't queue, there's no reason you should be worrying at all.

 

> They are however designed so that 10 people who want to work together can do so an reasonably improve and get kills. That's the social aspect that gets removed by swapping to a purely automated system.

Statics won't be requeuing because if they want to work together they won't be using that feature in the first place.

 

It's a feature for pugs only. And you just said you aren't concerned with them at all.

 

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> No, there aren't. There are users you are buying select encounters or achievements. Nobody here said "I've bought all my 150 LIs".

As i mentioned, there are guilds that created special discount packages for "all achieves + 150 li" exactly because there _were_ buyers. And enough of them it was simpler to make a discount package for it instead of haggling with them individually (which they initially did).

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > And again, just because someone *has* Envoy armor does not current mean that they earned it. Chances are that at least one person you've seen in Envoy armor bought it.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > One out of many more. Statistically insignificant. See what I mean?

> > >

> > > I said *at least* one, it could be every single person you've seen in Envoy armor that you don't know for a fact earned it. I'm starting to question whether you know how "statistically insignificant" works. It doesn't just refer to a valid point that upsets you.

> >

> > Also the random quantum fluctuations could end up arranging the particles next to me in a stunningly beautiful woman who falls in love with me immediately. The chances for both are about the same.

>

> That is just a disturbing misunderstanding of statistical odds. Do you *genuinely* believe that the two situations are equally likely? If so, I've got a bridge to sell you, which I guarantee is equally likely to be both owned by me and worth well more than I'd sell it for.

 

The probability of each situation happening in real life is exactly zero. 0 = 0, so there.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > > > The only reason they don't want easier grouping options and possibly easier difficulty of raids, is because they enjoy being able to lord their accomplishments over others, but when we break down what they have achieved it actually isn't much, so really it's more about ego insecurities more then anything else.

> > > >

> > > > Not true at all.

> > > >

> > > > Automation takes out any reasons to stick with a group with things go belly up. This alone is a good reason to not have it.

> > > > With the current system players are at least invested enough when joining groups that they don't up and leave at the first sign of it not working.

> > > > Swapping to automation removes that and the social aspect of being invested and improving as a group because why bother since you have a 50/50 chance of getting a better group in the next queue.

> > > >

> > >

> > > This happens in pugs anyways, what the point?

> >

> > Raids aren't designed as an activity for Pugs. Not sure why that's even being used as a defense.

> Because your argument is _meant_ for pug groups only. Statics won't be queuing anyway, because they already have a group.

> But if pugs don't matter, and statics won't queue, there's no reason you should be worrying at all.

 

It may surprise you, but statics change all the time despite being "static" in name. People have real life to attend, they miss raid schedules or sometimes drop out of team completely. You're engaging in absolutes and unrealistic assumptions here.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > No, there aren't. There are users you are buying select encounters or achievements. Nobody here said "I've bought all my 150 LIs".

> As i mentioned, there are guilds that created special discount packages for "all achieves + 150 li" exactly because there _were_ buyers. And enough of them it was simpler to make a discount package for it instead of haggling with them individually (which they initially did).

>

 

Or they did it to capture a market niche because their original one grew too competitive and not as lucrative? I never saw an ad like this and I never contacted a raid seller in the first place, so I genuinely don't know. *If* they drive the price low enough to be affordable for a considerable amount of non-raiders, then your point would be valid and they'd be undermining the value and meaning of the envoy.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> Yes of course it's a slippery slope argument, it's supposed to mirror your argument.

 

But I'm not making a slippery slope argument, so how would it in any way "mirror" mine?

 

>Random 10 people can complete on their first try? That would have to involve absolutely zero wipe mechanics, zero down mechanics, zero strategical decisionmaking, zero support mechanics, etc. It would have to be laughably easy without any challenge.

 

Again, "balanced verses the content in the rest of the game." If you believe that the rest of the game is "way easy" then this would be too, but a lot of people seem to enjoy "the rest of the game." A general rule of thumb is that nothing would auto-down or auto-defeat you, such mechanics would be converted to just deal significant damage instead, and timer-based "fail states" would be removed.

 

Again, the *point* is for them to be easy, so it should come as no surprise when it succeeds at this.

 

>I mean, you are pulling numbers out of thin air.

 

No, I'm basing it on the data available to us, in that every player poll taken on this forum or the subreddit, which by all accounts would bias *in favor of* raiding rather than against it, indicate that less than 25% of players raid regularly or ever, and on sites like Efficiency relatively few players have Envoy armor. If you have data that indicates that "For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it," please provide it.

 

>but I and others will tell you that it's already the case that nobody has to feel left out because raids are easily learned and trained with training discords/groups, or even training LFGs.

 

I think you're misunderstanding that most people don't *want* to do that. I have no doubt that I could complete raids if I were willing to go "through the indoctrination" to do so. I just know for a fact that I would enjoy none of that process, I have no interest in it. I don't just want to "make it through" the existing raids, I want to *enjoy* myself, and I could never enjoy that. What I would enjoy is the easier experience I described above, where I can just roll up and get it done, no training necessary.

 

>I'm using that as an argument that regular raids are very

 

Are you arguing that all encounters can meet the conditions I described above for what an "easy mode raid" would entail? If not, then however easy they are for you, they are not easy enough.

 

>I guess I should have specified "most people participating"

 

They can do better than just "most people participating."

 

> And I guess it's the same idea, you're fine for wanting no-effort raids, but it's also fine for devs not wasting their time with this slippery slope.

 

Again, there is no slippery slope here. One tier of easier difficulty. One step. No slope.

 

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The probability of each situation happening in real life is exactly zero. 0 = 0, so there.

 

Again, I'm more and more convinced that you don't understand how statistics work. Maybe stop making examples that involve "statistics." It's. . . not helping.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> It may surprise you, but statics change all the time despite being "static" in name. People have real life to attend, they miss raid schedules or sometimes drop out of team completely. You're engaging in absolutes and unrealistic assumptions here.

Oh, i know, but statics are still being created using different methods than pugs. And people trying to join a static don't do that for just a few fights.

Besides, the advantage of statics over pugs is so great that noone would willingly go from a static to a pug unless said static was beyond hopeless.

 

The fact remains: the queue system would be for pugs and pugs alone.

 

 

 

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > It may surprise you, but statics change all the time despite being "static" in name. People have real life to attend, they miss raid schedules or sometimes drop out of team completely. You're engaging in absolutes and unrealistic assumptions here.

> Oh, i know, but statics are still being created using different methods than pugs. And people trying to join a static don't do that for just a few fights.

> Besides, the advantage of statics over pugs is so great that noone would willingly go from a static to a pug unless said static was beyond hopeless.

>

> The fact remains: the queue system would be for pugs and pugs alone.

>

>

>

>

>

 

It's not about creating statics or filling them. We often pug just to fill the number, and many statics do just that. You can't just wave that away and say it doesn't concern the statics, it does.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > The probability of each situation happening in real life is exactly zero. 0 = 0, so there.

>

> Again, I'm more and more convinced that you don't understand how statistics work. Maybe stop making examples that involve "statistics." It's. . . not helping.

 

In this case it is not a question of statistics, it's an impossibility.

[Linken.6345]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Dzjudz.9142" said:

> > Yes of course it's a slippery slope argument, it's supposed to mirror your argument.

>

> But I'm not making a slippery slope argument, so how would it in any way "mirror" mine?

>

> >Random 10 people can complete on their first try? That would have to involve absolutely zero wipe mechanics, zero down mechanics, zero strategical decisionmaking, zero support mechanics, etc. It would have to be laughably easy without any challenge.

>

> Again, "balanced verses the content in the rest of the game." If you believe that the rest of the game is "way easy" then this would be too, but a lot of people seem to enjoy "the rest of the game." A general rule of thumb is that nothing would auto-down or auto-defeat you, such mechanics would be converted to just deal significant damage instead, and timer-based "fail states" would be removed.

>

> Again, the *point* is for them to be easy, so it should come as no surprise when it succeeds at this.

>

> >I mean, you are pulling numbers out of thin air.

>

> No, I'm basing it on the data available to us, in that every player poll taken on this forum or the subreddit, which by all accounts would bias *in favor of* raiding rather than against it, indicate that less than 25% of players raid regularly or ever, and on sites like Efficiency relatively few players have Envoy armor. If you have data that indicates that "For most people the raids pose a fun challenge which rewards them for overcoming it," please provide it.

>

> >but I and others will tell you that it's already the case that nobody has to feel left out because raids are easily learned and trained with training discords/groups, or even training LFGs.

>

> I think you're misunderstanding that most people don't *want* to do that. I have no doubt that I could complete raids if I were willing to go "through the indoctrination" to do so. I just know for a fact that I would enjoy none of that process, I have no interest in it. I don't just want to "make it through" the existing raids, I want to *enjoy* myself, and I could never enjoy that. What I would enjoy is the easier experience I described above, where I can just roll up and get it done, no training necessary.

>

> >I'm using that as an argument that regular raids are very

>

> Are you arguing that all encounters can meet the conditions I described above for what an "easy mode raid" would entail? If not, then however easy they are for you, they are not easy enough.

>

> >I guess I should have specified "most people participating"

>

> They can do better than just "most people participating."

>

> > And I guess it's the same idea, you're fine for wanting no-effort raids, but it's also fine for devs not wasting their time with this slippery slope.

>

> Again, there is no slippery slope here. One tier of easier difficulty. One step. No slope.

>

>

>

a slipery slope have a start point he/she is argueing that your position is the starting point of that slope.