maddoctor.2738 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > Your comparing Apple's and oranges, there are a lot of people who want to raid and are complaining that they can't for various reasons, no other difficulty options or ease in grouping. Nobody is really complaining that they are being blocked from playing dungeons for these same reasons. And I'm saying that the lower difficulty of dungeons and the multiple scales of Fractals didn't in reality increase the amount of players running that content as much as you might think, increased it yes, but didn't make it something the majority (or as you said "everyone") runs. Which makes me question if those people actually want to Raid in the first place and not simply want the Envoy armor. After all dungeon skins are available from press-1 pvp farm maps so they don't even have to deal with dungeons to get the dungeon rewards, so there is no reason to complain they can't beat the dungeons, is there? If there was a pvp track that awarded Envoy armor we wouldn't be having this discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 6, 2018 Author Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Your comparing Apple's and oranges, there are a lot of people who want to raid and are complaining that they can't for various reasons, no other difficulty options or ease in grouping. Nobody is really complaining that they are being blocked from playing dungeons for these same reasons. > > And I'm saying that the lower difficulty of dungeons and the multiple scales of Fractals didn't in reality increase the amount of players running that content as much as you might think, increased it yes, but didn't make it something the majority (or as you said "everyone") runs. Which makes me question if those people actually want to Raid in the first place and not simply want the Envoy armor. After all dungeon skins are available from press-1 pvp farm maps so they don't even have to deal with dungeons to get the dungeon rewards, so there is no reason to complain they can't beat the dungeons, is there? If there was a pvp track that awarded Envoy armor we wouldn't be having this discussion. I think what your seeing with that is that it's 6 year old content and that's why nobody plays it. And the rewards aren't very good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Your comparing Apple's and oranges, there are a lot of people who want to raid and are complaining that they can't for various reasons, no other difficulty options or ease in grouping. Nobody is really complaining that they are being blocked from playing dungeons for these same reasons. > > And I'm saying that the lower difficulty of dungeons and the multiple scales of Fractals didn't in reality increase the amount of players running that content as much as you might think, increased it yes, but didn't make it something the majority (or as you said "everyone") runs. Which makes me question if those people actually want to Raid in the first place and not simply want the Envoy armor. After all dungeon skins are available from press-1 pvp farm maps so they don't even have to deal with dungeons to get the dungeon rewards, so there is no reason to complain they can't beat the dungeons, is there? If there was a pvp track that awarded Envoy armor we wouldn't be having this discussion. People clearly want the rewards as well it brings people back into the content, rather then abandoning it once they cleared the content, which likely what is happening with dungeons or fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: Mmm maaaybe? I mean. I think that's not entirely clear. Raiders are too used to skipping mechanics by DPSing, to the point that in some bosses skipping mechanics "is meta". Like no-updraft Gorseval. For these you need DPS, but you can have bad DPS and do Gorse with updrafts. Would that apply to all bosses? I'm not really sure, honestly. I don't know. We're constantly taking shorcuts, overhealing damage mechanics etc so it would be difficult to answer that question. Some bosses do need DPS, like Mursaat, but I've never gone beyond a certain point of the fight because of that DPS so I'm not sure if it would fail with very bad dps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumpin Lumpix.6108 Posted May 6, 2018 Author Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: Yes but what if u want to wear cleric or soldiers, you can still clear a dungeon with that but not a raid, so you still need specific builds Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > > > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: > > Mmm maaaybe? I mean. I think that's not entirely clear. Raiders are too used to skipping mechanics by DPSing, to the point that in some bosses skipping mechanics "is meta". Like no-updraft Gorseval. For these you need DPS, but you can have bad DPS and do Gorse with updrafts. Would that apply to all bosses? I'm not really sure, honestly. I don't know. We're constantly taking shorcuts, overhealing damage mechanics etc so it would be difficult to answer that question. Some bosses do need DPS, like Mursaat, but I've never gone beyond a certain point of the fight because of that DPS so I'm not sure if it would fail with very bad dps. Have you ever played more traditional MMORPGs with newly released endgame-content, which people have to clear first for gear which only then makes said content faceroll? I have. If you go for the hard-mode there, you can't do stuff like low-manning because you need damage. People have to be good in order to clear that stuff, meaning they have to be somewhat in the 90th percentile of their class (if you want to make a comparison to GW2). At one of the last Gorse's I did, only one person even hit the 50th percentile and we still made it just fine with the usual updraft at the end. That's by no way a real dps-check. ...and seriously, by design GW2 can't even implement real dps-checks 'cause the difference in dps-potentials is utterly bonkers. Stuff is good the way it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Your comparing Apple's and oranges, there are a lot of people who want to raid and are complaining that they can't for various reasons, no other difficulty options or ease in grouping. Nobody is really complaining that they are being blocked from playing dungeons for these same reasons. > > And I'm saying that the lower difficulty of dungeons and the multiple scales of Fractals didn't in reality increase the amount of players running that content as much as you might think, increased it yes, but didn't make it something the majority (or as you said "everyone") runs. That (as we have already noticed) depends on specific dungeon and path. AC? over 60%. And i am sure that if we went for specific paths, not for whole completed dungeons, the numbers would jump up again. Perhaps significantly. After all, TA up/up was really popular, but at the same time Fd/up had the lowest participation rates, lower than Arah. And after it got removed, aetherpath that replaced it wasn't all that popular either. Remember, you're comparing whole dungeons to single raid bosses, when a better comparison would be to compare paths with bosses or whole dungeons with wings. > Which makes me question if those people actually want to Raid in the first place and not simply want the Envoy armor. Some people definitely just want envoy armor. In fact, some of them are already raiding (and possibly not finding that fun, which may negatively impact their fun factor of this game) > After all dungeon skins are available from press-1 pvp farm maps so they don't even have to deal with dungeons to get the dungeon rewards, so there is no reason to complain they can't beat the dungeons, is there? If there was a pvp track that awarded Envoy armor we wouldn't be having this discussion. Definitely it would decrease the fervor of the discussion, and on both sides (because, let's be honest, most of the voices against easy mode are about envoy armor as well). Whether it would decrease it to the level where we wouldn't see new people starting new threads on weekly basis, i have no idea. At least some of them are really about difficulty and/or raid toxicity, not about rewards. Also, there's still that AC popularity phenomenon. People _were_ running it, and all paths, and there were a lot of them. Your theory pretty much ignores that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerioth.7062 Posted May 6, 2018 Share Posted May 6, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > > > > > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: > > > > Mmm maaaybe? I mean. I think that's not entirely clear. Raiders are too used to skipping mechanics by DPSing, to the point that in some bosses skipping mechanics "is meta". Like no-updraft Gorseval. For these you need DPS, but you can have bad DPS and do Gorse with updrafts. Would that apply to all bosses? I'm not really sure, honestly. I don't know. We're constantly taking shorcuts, overhealing damage mechanics etc so it would be difficult to answer that question. Some bosses do need DPS, like Mursaat, but I've never gone beyond a certain point of the fight because of that DPS so I'm not sure if it would fail with very bad dps. > > Have you ever played more traditional MMORPGs with newly released endgame-content, which people have to clear first for gear which only then makes said content faceroll? I have. If you go for the hard-mode there, you can't do stuff like low-manning because you need damage. People have to be good in order to clear that stuff, meaning they have to be somewhat in the 90th percentile of their class (if you want to make a comparison to GW2). At one of the last Gorse's I did, only one person even hit the 50th percentile and we still made it just fine with the usual updraft at the end. That's by no way a real dps-check. ...and seriously, by design GW2 can't even implement real dps-checks 'cause the difference in dps-potentials is utterly bonkers. Stuff is good the way it is. It's the no-updraft Gors that is a DPS check, not updraft Gors. Other good DPS check examples are KC and Xera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > Yeah, I met those players in pug runs on Sloth. At first it needs hours to start because dps players don't want to pick a shroom, secondly they eat terrible, thirdly they tank horribly, fourthly they lay poison into the group and fifthly they collect all the coconuts if the chronos are not preventing it. But of course, 5 min ez pz first try, gg no re! > > I would laugh about it if it wouldn't be so sad. So you point out that it's a very complicated situation with a lot that could go wrong and could ruin the run. Don't you believe that some players might not *enjoy* that, and that if there were a version where the "going wrong" didn't steamroll so spectacularly, they would enjoy that more? Do you believe these players just *shouldn't* enjoy the game? > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. They do. There is no one that cannot reasonable clear dungeons or low tier Fractals, at least no one that can manage the rest of the game. Maybe they don't pull 100% of their share, but they can at least clear the content without being a complete dead weight. >So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. Why? Why don't I solve the problem I'd like to solve first, and *then* work on the problem you'd like solved? I'd be perfectly willing to help you with that one, but it's not my own priority because I don't see it as being so needy. >It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. Why not? 10-man content has ten people in it, who can distribute the workload more easily. Each person has much less responsibility for the outcome than 5-man content. You guys have often pointed out how 150-man content is some of the most accessible content available, so why should 10-man content be somehow less accessible than 5? >Yes yes but if you check some statistical data it shows that besides having scales and being too easy not everyone runs them. It should make you wonder, no? The goal isn't to make it so that everyone runs them. The goal is to make it more accessible to those who *want* to run them. > If there was a pvp track that awarded Envoy armor we wouldn't be having this discussion. Well, why don't we try it and find out? I think I have enough saved up PvP reward potions to handle that one. Personally I would prefer a PvE reward track though, just in case I run out. I REALLY don't want to do any more PvP. > @"Raizel.8175" said: > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: Low DPS can still minimally clear the content, but high DPS makes it less likely that you'll be killed in the process. I'm dealing with this situation in a mobile game I played, a boss they recently added has a six minute timer, but is much easier to kill on my character that can beat her in two minutes than on my characters that take the full six minutes to wear her down, because she has less chances to deal one-hit kills. >Have you ever played more traditional MMORPGs with newly released endgame-content, which people have to clear first for gear which only then makes said content faceroll? I have. If you go for the hard-mode there, you can't do stuff like low-manning because you need damage. People have to be good in order to clear that stuff, meaning they have to be somewhat in the 90th percentile of their class (if you want to make a comparison to GW2). But the difference there is that players eventually "catch up" to the content. Yes, if you try to do the hardest possible stuff the instant it comes out, it is very hard and high-demand, and it should be, and I fully defend it remaining so in GW2. But in those other games, if a player is willing to patiently wait six months, or even just a few months, the older content can become trivially easy to clear, and he can get everything it has to offer. That doesn't happen yet in GW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vinceman.4572 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > Yeah, I met those players in pug runs on Sloth. At first it needs hours to start because dps players don't want to pick a shroom, secondly they eat terrible, thirdly they tank horribly, fourthly they lay poison into the group and fifthly they collect all the coconuts if the chronos are not preventing it. But of course, 5 min ez pz first try, gg no re! > So you point out that it's a very complicated situation with a lot that could go wrong and could ruin the run. Don't you believe that some players might not *enjoy* that, and that if there were a version where the "going wrong" didn't steamroll so spectacularly, they would enjoy that more? No, it was only an answer to his ridiculous phrases. I mean just reading the last page made us laugh in discord yesterday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Vinceman.4572" said: > > > Yeah, I met those players in pug runs on Sloth. At first it needs hours to start because dps players don't want to pick a shroom, secondly they eat terrible, thirdly they tank horribly, fourthly they lay poison into the group and fifthly they collect all the coconuts if the chronos are not preventing it. But of course, 5 min ez pz first try, gg no re! > > > So you point out that it's a very complicated situation with a lot that could go wrong and could ruin the run. Don't you believe that some players might not *enjoy* that, and that if there were a version where the "going wrong" didn't steamroll so spectacularly, they would enjoy that more? > > No, it was only an answer to his ridiculous phrases. I mean just reading the last page made us laugh in discord yesterday. Ok. and what does that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. Again, it is true in t4 and cms. Just because t1 is a faceroll and nobody cares about it doesn't extend the same attitude in *all* fractals. The problem would remain, just as it is present in t4/cm. People overrate their skill and will try to enter the groups where skill, build and composition matter. And they'll get kicked, because they're inexperienced and they'll fail. Just like it happens in fractals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > No. That's a flat lie. Hard modes are as hard to implement as easy modes and take around the same time. > > Based on what? > > You guys are genuinely confusing me on this one, I do not understand how someone could *honestly* claim that position. It flies in the face of all common sense. Hard modes and easy modes need tuning. Both need a rework or addition of mechanics. But easy mode also needs a defined audience which is pretty clear for a hard mode. You still lack the proof that an easy mode is easy and fast to implement. > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Also, there's still that AC popularity phenomenon. People _were_ running it, and all paths, and there were a lot of them. Your theory pretty much ignores that. > That is really easy to explain. AC is the first dungeon and one of the easiest after the rework years ago. Many people will run it and see that dungeons are not for them and never play any other during the leveling time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Why don't I solve the problem I'd like to solve first, and *then* work on the problem you'd like solved? I'd be perfectly willing to help you with that one, but it's not my own priority because I don't see it as being so needy. 5-man content is entry level instanced content while 10-man content is higher tier instanced content. Do you really expect 10-man content to be more popular than 5-man content? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > > No. That's a flat lie. Hard modes are as hard to implement as easy modes and take around the same time. > > > > Based on what? > > > > You guys are genuinely confusing me on this one, I do not understand how someone could *honestly* claim that position. It flies in the face of all common sense. > > Hard modes and easy modes need tuning. Both need a rework or addition of mechanics. But easy mode also needs a defined audience which is pretty clear for a hard mode. > You still lack the proof that an easy mode is easy and fast to implement. > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > Also, there's still that AC popularity phenomenon. People _were_ running it, and all paths, and there were a lot of them. Your theory pretty much ignores that. > > > That is really easy to explain. AC is the first dungeon and one of the easiest after the rework years ago. Many people will run it and see that dungeons are not for them and never play any other during the leveling time. Actually, i would be seriously surprised if TA up or CoF p1 were run any less. The difference (as i see it) is that for AC the difficulty is mostly constant on all 3 paths, so people generally did all 3, while in other dungeons there's always that one "harder path" people tend to avoid, thus lowering the amount of players that have the whole dungeon cleared. It's not that significantly less people were running TA than AC. It's that less people were running _aetherpath_. Basically, what it's happening is like checking escort popularity by seeing the percentage of players that completed the whole wing. So, also KC and _Xera_. And now suddenly the numbers drop by over a half. That's only my guess, of course (although i feel reasonably sure it's true), which is why i mentioned before i'd really like to see individual path completion statistics. Too bad gw2efficiency doesn't have that option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > Actually, i would be seriously surprised if TA up or CoF p1 were run any less. The difference (as i see it) is that for AC the difficulty is mostly constant on all 3 paths, so people generally did all 3, while in other dungeons there's always that one "harder path" people tend to avoid, thus lowering the amount of players that have the whole dungeon cleared. Actually having paths of varied difficulty is a great thing to measure who went to that dungeon to over-farm the easiest route, and who went there for the dungeon/content itself. And besides, people running one path out of the entire dungeon doesn't help easy mode raids the least bit, it's like you are saying they will be running one of the wings only and not all the easy raids. > Also, there's still that AC popularity phenomenon. People _were_ running it, and all paths, and there were a lot of them. Your theory pretty much ignores that. AC is the entry dungeon, it can be used to level up your characters and it is the easiest to overwhelm by over-gearing it. It was created for level 30 rare gear for crying out loud. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said: > > > > > > > > > Raids need to accommodate everyone > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This is interesting, do dungeons and fractals also need to accommodate everyone? Because at this moment they do not in fact do that. > > > > > > > > So before Raids accommodate everyone, why don't you propose an overhaul of Dungeons and Fractals first, so that entry level instanced content can accommodate everyone. It wouldn't make much sense for the 10-player challenging instanced content to be made to accommodate everyone, while the 5-man entry level instanced content does not. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > They have fractal scales and dungeons are so easy that they are at the most minimum threshold they can be, so nobody complains, elite specs make them even easier, and most importantly you don't need certain setups, builds or skill rotations for them and the bosses have no enrage timers. > > > > > > > > > > > > You'd be surprised, but where difficulties exist, we *do* care about group composition and builds. Dungeons are abandoned and a cakewalk, that's why nobody cares. But people actively playing fractals? They play t4 and cms, they ask for specific builds and they ask for killproof. With exactly the same intent - to get a smooth clear instead of relentless clown fiesta. > > > > > > > > > > Your taking about scale 100 fractals, nobody does this on scale 1, and nobody does this on vanilla dungeons. So they have a baseline for vanilla dungeons that is so easy you don't need a lower difficulty option, there are no enrage timers so you could beat it in full nomads. All optimal builds do is make speed runs quicker but they are not necessary. This is not possible I in raids, since if enough die or you don't dps hard enough (specific spec/build + skill level) the boss timer will run out and you will wipe. None of this is true in any dungeons or fractals. > > > > > > > > I kinda disagree. Raids are mostly about mechanics and not about dps. ANet can't even make them about dps anyways with the crap-balancing between dps-specs. I think that a reasonable build and a decent gear are sufficient for dps. s: > > > > > > Mmm maaaybe? I mean. I think that's not entirely clear. Raiders are too used to skipping mechanics by DPSing, to the point that in some bosses skipping mechanics "is meta". Like no-updraft Gorseval. For these you need DPS, but you can have bad DPS and do Gorse with updrafts. Would that apply to all bosses? I'm not really sure, honestly. I don't know. We're constantly taking shorcuts, overhealing damage mechanics etc so it would be difficult to answer that question. Some bosses do need DPS, like Mursaat, but I've never gone beyond a certain point of the fight because of that DPS so I'm not sure if it would fail with very bad dps. > > > > Have you ever played more traditional MMORPGs with newly released endgame-content, which people have to clear first for gear which only then makes said content faceroll? I have. If you go for the hard-mode there, you can't do stuff like low-manning because you need damage. People have to be good in order to clear that stuff, meaning they have to be somewhat in the 90th percentile of their class (if you want to make a comparison to GW2). At one of the last Gorse's I did, only one person even hit the 50th percentile and we still made it just fine with the usual updraft at the end. That's by no way a real dps-check. ...and seriously, by design GW2 can't even implement real dps-checks 'cause the difference in dps-potentials is utterly bonkers. Stuff is good the way it is. > > It's the no-updraft Gors that is a DPS check, not updraft Gors. Other good DPS check examples are KC and Xera. It's still not something the typical MMO-player would consider to be a real dps-check since it won't make you go *boom* me dead when you have to use a single updraft. Honestly, the Enrage Timers are like really really lenient in GW2 and it's probably good that way considering what a mess the game is conceptually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Miellyn.6847" said: >Hard modes and easy modes need tuning. Both need a rework or addition of mechanics. But easy mode also needs a defined audience which is pretty clear for a hard mode. >You still lack the proof that an easy mode is easy and fast to implement. There is no reason to believe that there is more of an audience for hard mode than easy mode. Of the poll *on the raid forums,* which logic would significantly skew towards raiders, "easy only" and "hard only" are neck and neck, and "both" beats either by 40%. If there is an audience for one, there is at least an audience for the other, and the need for an easy mode is more significant, since those players are currently left out entirely, whereas "hard mode please" players at least have the current raids to play, and CMs on several of them. I'm sure you'll protest "but easy mode people can just play the current raids!" but we're both aware that's an unsatisfactory answer and always will be, so why even bother? As for difficulty of implementation, I went over my reasoning. Every amount of work that would go into an easy mode would also have to go into a hard mode, so at minimum they would take an equal amount of work, whatever amount that happens to be. But then, *on top of that,* the needs of hard mode would be significantly higher, since it would need to have tighter tolerances, it would need to be "entertainingly challenging," without just being stupid and cheap. Basically fans of a hard mode would be far more likely to be disappointed in a lame version of hard mode, than easy mode fans would be of a lame version of easy mode, because what they're looking for is more precise. It would require design iteration and testing that would be unnecessary for an easy mode because easy mode players wouldn't be bothered. So easy mode might be a lot more work than I expect. Whether it is or not, hard mode would be a lot more work *on top of that.* > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > Why don't I solve the problem I'd like to solve first, and *then* work on the problem you'd like solved? I'd be perfectly willing to help you with that one, but it's not my own priority because I don't see it as being so needy. > > 5-man content is entry level instanced content while 10-man content is higher tier instanced content. Do you really expect 10-man content to be more popular than 5-man content? I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so. > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so. > > > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population. > I don't agree, but what if that were true? If the small population that raids is enough to justify the significant efforts that went into creating the raids and all that goes with them, then why wouldn't even a smaller population justify producing an easy mode that would take a fraction of the total effort? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > > That is really easy to explain. AC is the first dungeon and one of the easiest after the rework years ago. Many people will run it and see that dungeons are not for them and never play any other during the leveling time. > Actually, i would be seriously surprised if TA up or CoF p1 were run any less. The difference (as i see it) is that for AC the difficulty is mostly constant on all 3 paths, so people generally did all 3, while in other dungeons there's always that one "harder path" people tend to avoid, thus lowering the amount of players that have the whole dungeon cleared. > It's not that significantly less people were running TA than AC. It's that less people were running _aetherpath_. > > Basically, what it's happening is like checking escort popularity by seeing the percentage of players that completed the whole wing. So, also KC and _Xera_. And now suddenly the numbers drop by over a half. > > That's only my guess, of course (although i feel reasonably sure it's true), which is why i mentioned before i'd really like to see individual path completion statistics. Too bad gw2efficiency doesn't have that option. Than you should read the numbers posted as answer for you in the other thread. AC is the only dungeon above 60% while all other dungeons are below 50%. Between AC and TA are over 15% participation, that's far from not significant. The only reason AC is so high is the fact that it is the first dungeon. Instanced content is not liked by the majority of players in GW2. > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Miellyn.6847" said: > >Hard modes and easy modes need tuning. Both need a rework or addition of mechanics. But easy mode also needs a defined audience which is pretty clear for a hard mode. > >You still lack the proof that an easy mode is easy and fast to implement. > > There is no reason to believe that there is more of an audience for hard mode than easy mode. Of the poll *on the raid forums,* which logic would significantly skew towards raiders, "easy only" and "hard only" are neck and neck, and "both" beats either by 40%. If there is an audience for one, there is at least an audience for the other, and the need for an easy mode is more significant, since those players are currently left out entirely, whereas "hard mode please" players at least have the current raids to play, and CMs on several of them. I'm sure you'll protest "but easy mode people can just play the current raids!" but we're both aware that's an unsatisfactory answer and always will be, so why even bother? > That has nothing to do with the subject. > As for difficulty of implementation, I went over my reasoning. Every amount of work that would go into an easy mode would also have to go into a hard mode, so at minimum they would take an equal amount of work, whatever amount that happens to be. But then, *on top of that,* the needs of hard mode would be significantly higher, since it would need to have tighter tolerances, it would need to be "entertainingly challenging," without just being stupid and cheap. Basically fans of a hard mode would be far more likely to be disappointed in a lame version of hard mode, than easy mode fans would be of a lame version of easy mode, because what they're looking for is more precise. It would require design iteration and testing that would be unnecessary for an easy mode because easy mode players wouldn't be bothered. > > So easy mode might be a lot more work than I expect. Whether it is or not, hard mode would be a lot more work *on top of that.* Easy modes need a extremly careful balance between difficulty and rewards. Easy content is hit or miss. Either people play it for rewards afterwards or one time for the experience. We have enough overrewarding content already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maddoctor.2738 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > I don't agree, but what if that were true? If the small population that raids is enough to justify the significant efforts that went into creating the raids and all that goes with them, then why wouldn't even a smaller population justify producing an easy mode that would take a fraction of the total effort? You should read this: Splintering the community is a huge issue. More importantly, this phrase: > Two different play modes will send all of the "elite" players to CM, leaving "normal" mode as less desirable. I'm sure you can easily adapt this to an easy mode instead. You can say that the easy mode won't apply to the raiding player base but that would be untrue. It will be based on the rewards given with this easy mode. So not only the population that will benefit from easy modes is tiny, but it will also affect another part of the population negatively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so. > > > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population. is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be? > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > Actually, i would be seriously surprised if TA up or CoF p1 were run any less. The difference (as i see it) is that for AC the difficulty is mostly constant on all 3 paths, so people generally did all 3, while in other dungeons there's always that one "harder path" people tend to avoid, thus lowering the amount of players that have the whole dungeon cleared. > > Actually having paths of varied difficulty is a great thing to measure who went to that dungeon to over-farm the easiest route, and who went there for the dungeon/content itself. > And besides, people running one path out of the entire dungeon doesn't help easy mode raids the least bit, it's like you are saying they will be running one of the wings only and not all the easy raids. Yes, some would do only easy bosses. Just like some people do only easy bosses even now. You would have people doing all bosses in normal mode, people doing easy bosses in normal, and the rest in easy mode, and people doing as much as they can in easy. That would mean the number of people doing each boss (whn counting normal and easy mode together) would increase. By how much, that would depend on specifics of the easy mode, but the numbers on at least some dungeons suggest that there still _is_ a significant population that potentially might be harnessed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miellyn.6847 Posted May 7, 2018 Share Posted May 7, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"maddoctor.2738" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > I don't think it matters whether it is or not. My concern is that players who want to raid at a more casual level have options to do so. > > > > > > > And my concern is that the amount of players that applies to is very small, even smaller than the raiding population. > is it? Wouldn't that depend a lot on how easy the easy mode would be? No. It first depends on the players left that don't play raids and and play instanced content in general. It doesn't matter how easy it gets if people don't play instances at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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