Please Overhaul Raids.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> The 20 man would allow for people to see the story, possibly assist with training, and I imagine would require limited dev time. A time gated stat swap armor using refined skin would probably keep people doing the 20 man version and would keep an elite version for the normal raids, just like WvW and soon to be PvP.

 

Stat-swappable refined skin from a 20-man sounds fine to me. Heck, if it doesn't require provisioner tokens I'd do that myself. :lol:

[Teamkiller.4315]

Ohoni could really learn a lesson from Tyson.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> The 20 man would allow for people to see the story, possibly assist with training, and I imagine would require limited dev time. A time gated stat swap armor using refined skin would probably keep people doing the 20 man version and would keep an elite version for the normal raids, just like WvW and soon to be PvP.

 

It probably won't be that easy though. Even if bosses were to have the same HP, people who are new to raids or just want to have a go for the story won't deal as much damage as normal raid-groups. That way, even if you have 20 people, stuff may take as long or even longer as normal raids. People also have to deal with mechanics and on some bosses, that means that you have even more liabilities that can screw up mechanics, making these 20-man-raids even more difficult than their 10-man-version already is. Besides: It's a lot harder to coordinate 20 people instead of 10 and even 10 people can already be problematic.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > The 20 man would allow for people to see the story, possibly assist with training, and I imagine would require limited dev time. A time gated stat swap armor using refined skin would probably keep people doing the 20 man version and would keep an elite version for the normal raids, just like WvW and soon to be PvP.

>

> It probably won't be that easy though. Even if bosses were to have the same HP, people who are new to raids or just want to have a go for the story won't deal as much damage as normal raid-groups. That way, even if you have 20 people, stuff may take as long or even longer as normal raids. People also have to deal with mechanics and on some bosses, that means that you have even more liabilities that can screw up mechanics, making these 20-man-raids even more difficult than their 10-man-version already is. Besides: It's a lot harder to coordinate 20 people instead of 10 and even 10 people can already be problematic.

 

But you can dedicate more players to mechanics and/or keeping your group alive. What you say is true, to an extent, but it will be much easier overall. And people will learn how to handle the fights.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> The 20 man would allow for people to see the story,

 

I disagree with this part. It's already hard enough to see the "story" in other parts of the game were people are rushing and skipping all the cutscenes, now with 20 players this is gonna get worse. Plus, this whole idea of 20-man raids has one major drawback, remember Arah story mode? Yes that un-rewarding part of the game that after players finished it never went to play it again. Further, finding 19 other people is gonna be way harder than finding 9 others.

 

If the developers, ever, want to show everyone the story of the Raids, they need to make it a solo experience, otherwise it will fail like Arah story mode. But I can agree that 20-man raids can solve some of the other issues with an easy mode just fine. I'm not convinced it's a good way to experience the story though.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > The 20 man would allow for people to see the story,

>

> I disagree with this part. It's already hard enough to see the "story" in other parts of the game were people are rushing and skipping all the cutscenes, now with 20 players this is gonna get worse. Plus, this whole idea of 20-man raids has one major drawback, remember Arah story mode? Yes that un-rewarding part of the game that after players finished it never went to play it again. Further, finding 19 other people is gonna be way harder than finding 9 others.

>

> If the developers, ever, want to show everyone the story of the Raids, they need to make it a solo experience, otherwise it will fail like Arah story mode. But I can agree that 20-man raids can solve some of the other issues with an easy mode just fine. I'm not convinced it's a good way to experience the story though.

 

Here comes the stat-swappable skin mentioned. So long as a strong incentive exists, people will return and groups will fill. The point isn't to make a "story mode" - which would indeed best be soloable, although this requires major reworks of the most fights - the point is to address a commonly raised argument.

[Sykper.6583]

I do agree that a 20 man would address a lot of issues. It also could be sort of a fun thing for even hardcore groups to do, and as long as the rewards are separate and exclusive for 20 man versus 10 man, I can admit it's possibly the simplest solution to this. We don't really know the amount of work it would take to open it to 20 though, but in theory I kind of like this idea.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> I do agree that a 20 man would address a lot of issues. It also could be sort of a fun thing for even hardcore groups to do, and as long as the rewards are separate and exclusive for 20 man versus 10 man, I can admit it's possibly the simplest solution to this. We don't really know the amount of work it would take to open it to 20 though, but in theory I kind of like this idea.

 

It would be much less than any other option. MUCH less.

[keramatzmode.1906]

The problems with raids is that it didnt introduce a "hard" content. It just offers a very different content than it did in core GW2. All core GW2 offers was DPS race, skipping mobs, with zero mechanics when fighting a boss. Unlike in other MMO, they taught you how to do your job, specifically like healing, DPS and tanking. These are taught at early levels, like dungeons and easy raids, WHICH then carried over to the endgame of very hard raids. Or even giving a "novice" raid where they train you how to play the roles with zero mechanics.

 

The problem became apparent when anet decides to be a hipster company they are in the beginning, trying to market their game as a game without holy trinty, which end up becoming a 4 zerk gear dudes with one PS warrior in every dungeon run. The game didn't teach you why a support is needed, because all you need back then was might and DPS. The game decided to give every profession a fair chance and skillsets to do DPS, support or tank, CC, whatever, but in the end, its DPS that matters most. Because that is how bosses are designed back then, with dodging attacks being the "damage mitigation" and killing the boss as fast as possible. Then leads to players getting mad for zero hardcore content, bosses that requires mechanics, or roles. The constant begging for an "endgame" since 2012.

 

Suddenly when HoT arrived, when raids are introduced, there are no set meta being introduced, giving the players a chance to make whatever composition they want. And it shows, where DPS are still the metric for the players because nobody cares about non-quantifiable effort by the players, who cares about your rez or heals or buffs, when DPS is used as the yardstick for "player skills". The hardstuck players are scared of accepting any "new ideas", thus rejecting them if it didn't follow qT or any other "meta" build as designated by the playerbase. Without any official explaination by the devs, whether every profession is viable or not, or what they can contribute. Without even acknowledging that Holy Trinity IS the answer of the whole PvE endgame, we are split in this weird balance on PvE.

 

The game did not teach you about one or two about tanking, about stacking might and things to support your team in an "instanced" content. And the devs didn't properly address, how is such content is run. Other MMO did not shy about telling their players of each class and jobs can provide in an instanced content, but GW2 decided to change numbers here and there and call it a day, without even attempting to acknowledge "Yes, you need a healer and this-that and this are the specializations you can use for your clear composition". There are no established metagame, and only special snowflake buffs can sit comfortably like Druid spirits, or Choronomancer alclarity. This just lead players frustration, whenever their profession became the under 30k DPS club, or its not Chronomancer or Druid.

 

its not about Raid itself is hard. Its just that player transition from earlygame to endgame, the game never teach you how to work together in the first place, since everything is soloable, and dungeons are braindead zerker gear pinatas. And suddenly you are presented a boss with mechanics (which are not the biggest problem imo), and healer did not understand how to use the party status bars to heal, and there is no concept of Tanking and how to kite the boss into different direction. Hell, there is not even any kind of Threat generation when tanking, when he game lazily uses toughness stats as aggro.

 

Anet need to revise their stance on developing the game and be honest to themselves, whether they want to make it a holy trinity or a role based profession, and make sure they are implemented, at least on early pre-raid content to make them learn how to use these roles. Because making everybody can do everything, will not work because you will never achieve the perfect balance and player preference in LFG, and ruins the enjoyment of gathering people for instanced content..

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > The 20 man would allow for people to see the story,

>

> I disagree with this part. It's already hard enough to see the "story" in other parts of the game were people are rushing and skipping all the cutscenes, now with 20 players this is gonna get worse. Plus, this whole idea of 20-man raids has one major drawback, remember Arah story mode? Yes that un-rewarding part of the game that after players finished it never went to play it again. Further, finding 19 other people is gonna be way harder than finding 9 others.

>

> If the developers, ever, want to show everyone the story of the Raids, they need to make it a solo experience, otherwise it will fail like Arah story mode. But I can agree that 20-man raids can solve some of the other issues with an easy mode just fine. I'm not convinced it's a good way to experience the story though.

 

I would imagine these things could fill up similar to Meta event maps, especially if there is a stat swap reward. I don’t think there would be an issue getting people. Also with that many people you could learn the fight in chunks and have dedicated people doing certain objectives.

[BillC.4521]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > Now tell me how much the difference on easy mode and normal mode rewards should be, so normal people wont ever consider farming on easy mode, since i see you know what people think, for 2nd legend armor people only need to farm LI, how many the difference should be? 3times 4 times longer? 5 times?

> >You just creating another problem here, stop wasting anet time.

>

> I'm thinking around 1/3 Li per boss kill. Maybe 1/4. Again, nobody could say whether an individual player might find it *worth* playing easy mode, the challenge was whether "the rewards/time ratios is better" in easy mode, and no, it would not be. Easy mode would be designed to take equal or more time to clear than normal mode, for several times less reward, particularly in terms of the more unique rewards. It would **never** be the most efficient path for any player who has normal mode "on farm." As to whether they value convenience over efficiency, that's their own business, and you have no right to be upset over their choices.

>

> >So you want easy raid as easy as scale 10 fotm? LoL

>

> Yes, I've been fairly clear about that. There's no point in making an easy mode if it's basically the same difficult as the normal mode and only people already inclined to do the normal mode would care to participate.

>

> >And many people will complain, why? Its the rewards for competitive scene, just like how envoy armor is for challenging content on pve.

>

> And like with raids, they would have no right to complain. They have no entitlement to the rewards they've been offered, and they certainly have no entitlement to keep other players from having those rewards unless *they* agree to let them go. It is better for even one player to get an item that *he* wants, than to make a thousand players happy that he *doesn't* have it. Players that can only be happy at the misfortune of others do not deserve to be rewarded.

>

> >LoL, there are plenty of people who hate your solution too in this thread. Why not together find solution where everyone happy then rather than forcing your solution on everyone and act as if everyone will be happy :)

>

> I'm all ears. I would love to find a solution that everyone can agree with, and will discuss any solution offered, but too often the proposed "solution" is just "shut up and be happy with the current state of things," or "how about this thing that does nothing you want it to, but that I would be fine with?" Again, if players can only be happy with what other players do *not* get, then making them happy doesn't really matter.

 

Since each boss gives you 1 li then 1 wing will give you 1 li on easy mode. Next

 

2 things confusing me here, first you want easy mode as easy as scale 10 on fotm, then you want easy mode have equal time or longer time than normal mode to clear. How do you want to achieve that? More health? But since the dmg and mechanic nerfed probably people still gonna do it so its still better than normal mode. And if i remember correctly most of your suggestion for easy mode that i read so far will only make easy mode have less time to clear. Well less dmg and less health from boss means people can just focus on their dps so boss still die faster. Now you contradict your own suggestion.

Please consider the meta class, build,and comp on your solution for easy mode. Since the problem now is about how to make easy mode less appealing to normal raider so none of each mode die. Just like what anet want to do with hard mode, they trying to find a way so normal mode wont die

 

I wont be upset if they choose to do easy mode. I will probably do easy mode myself. But people will be upset to anet just like what you did right now because their normal mode die and thats because easy mode more appealing to everyone

 

But here we are on this thread where people upset because anet decide to make challenging content for people who ask for it and locking an armor behind it.

And people who complain have the entitlement to get it without hardwork while the one who already have the armor dont have the entitlement to protect their hardwork. Might as well put legend armor on gemstore so everyone can buy it.

 

"Players that can only be happy at the misfortune of others do not deserve to be rewarded"

 

And player that want something without doing the hardwork dont deserved to be rewarded too

If you want something you need to work for it.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I think a combination of 20 man raids with a new token system, with a time gated acquisition of a stat swap armor even with the refined skin, would probably meet like 95% of the issues presented here.

I seriously doubt it, since getting a 10-man group is a problem for many already. Having a 20-man option would not help there even a bit.

 

 

 

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

> Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

> Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

> Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

> That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I think a combination of 20 man raids with a new token system, with a time gated acquisition of a stat swap armor even with the refined skin, would probably meet like 95% of the issues presented here.

> I seriously doubt it, since getting a 10-man group is a problem for many already. Having a 20-man option would not help there even a bit.

>

>

>

It would probably fill up similar to the HoT Metas or world bosses honestly, especially with a stat swap reward. You would have to have a currency other then LI though.

 

[BillC.4521]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

> Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

>

Why should i protest about that? Im only asking because based on your statement from before you pretty sure no one from exp group will do it and make normal mode die. But i guess theres a chance easy mode can kill normal mode then :)

 

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

> Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

> Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

>

Why should i ask other people for this when anet itself is the one who said it before. :)

 

 

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

> That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

 

And theres probability normal mode people can split again into easy mode which will left normal mode empty. Maybe because the rewards, their playtime change etc, who knows

>

>

>

>

 

 

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

 

Could be a good chunk of dev time to do that, while a 20 man would also fix this issue as well.

[ChronosCosmos.9450]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

>

> Could be a good chunk of dev time to do that, while a 20 man would also fix this issue as well.

 

Yeah that would work too. 20 man where you get less rewards and 10man where you get more. The 20 man raid would be more forgiving to newer players.

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

> Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

> Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

> Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

>

> > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

> That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

>

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > I think a combination of 20 man raids with a new token system, with a time gated acquisition of a stat swap armor even with the refined skin, would probably meet like 95% of the issues presented here.

> I seriously doubt it, since getting a 10-man group is a problem for many already. Having a 20-man option would not help there even a bit.

>

>

>

 

The only fractal CM harder than some raid bosses is the Shattered Observatory and, while it's difficult, I'd say it's only easier than Escort, Trio and Mursaat. Cairn if you want, too. But that's only a CM, not several.

 

I think that if easy mode was finally implemented, normal mode raiders would go there to:

 

a) see how the thing is and never come back

b) get the weekly rewards, filling the LFG with fast runs (potentially problematic for those who just want a chilled run; I think normal raiders would end up _flooding_

the LFG), then go back to normal mode

c) have a meme fiesta (honestly, I think a lot of us would laugh a lot at the cheesed mechanics)

d) meme-speedrun videos

 

[vesica tempestas.1563]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

> > Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

> >

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

> > Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

> >

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

> > Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

> >

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

> > That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

> >

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > I think a combination of 20 man raids with a new token system, with a time gated acquisition of a stat swap armor even with the refined skin, would probably meet like 95% of the issues presented here.

> > I seriously doubt it, since getting a 10-man group is a problem for many already. Having a 20-man option would not help there even a bit.

> >

> >

> >

>

> The only fractal CM harder than some raid bosses is the Shattered Observatory and, while it's difficult, I'd say it's only easier than Escort, Trio and Mursaat. Cairn if you want, too. But that's only a CM, not several.

>

> I think that if easy mode was finally implemented, normal mode raiders would go there to:

>

> a) see how the thing is and never come back

> b) get the weekly rewards, filling the LFG with fast runs (potentially problematic for those who just want a chilled run; I think normal raiders would end up _flooding_

> the LFG), then go back to normal mode

> c) have a meme fiesta (honestly, I think a lot of us would laugh a lot at the cheesed mechanics)

> d) meme-speedrun videos

>

 

a) cool, must be good then.

b) price we need to pay i guess for having content others can play, but maybe over time like dungeons the raiders will relax their sphincters a bit and chill out and enjoy the content (or return normal mode raids)

c,d) in other words free to do any build you like and have some fun.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

> >

> > Could be a good chunk of dev time to do that, while a 20 man would also fix this issue as well.

>

> Yeah that would work too. 20 man where you get less rewards and 10man where you get more. The 20 man raid would be more forgiving to newer players.

>

If you gave the 20 man a separate, yet desirable reward, people would go there. I made the suggestion of a stat swapping refined armor.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > so because you said it then no one from exp group will do it. okay.

> > Of course they could. So what? Do you protest that experienced fractal groups can blow through t1 with ease completely ignoring most of the encounter mechanics by overhealing and dps-ing through them? Does anyone have problem with that? Because i don't remember anyone making athread about it like ever.

> >

> Why should i protest about that? Im only asking because based on your statement from before you pretty sure no one from exp group will do it and make normal mode die. But i guess theres a chance easy mode can kill normal mode then :)

 

No more a chance than for T1 to kill t4. CMs are a greater danger to t4 than t1 ever was.

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > once again its still no effort mode, using the current meta build on easy makes it no effort, using their own build on easy mode still no effort too because their build will probably sustain or overhealing on easy mode and i believe in the long run they will improve and make its more time efficient and beating the rewards/time ratio on harder mode

> > Due to weekly lockout it would simply _not_ be possible to beat the reward/time ratio of normal mode.

> >

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > and they still keep doing it tho? by saying raid should be harder than fotm means its a progression right?

> > Depends on whom you ask. There was that one claim that fractals are a stepping stone to raids, but that was before CMs (and as you already noticed, CMs are harder than some raid encounters already). There was also a claim that fractals and raids are both an equal endgame content, one for 5-man groups, one for 10-man groups. And there's that old claim that "the whole game is the endgame".

> >

> Why should i ask other people for this when anet itself is the one who said it before. :)

All the claims i mentined _were_ from Anet. Just from different devs.

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> > > @"BillC.4521" said:

> > if its really that easy to introduce easy mode like what you said, then why hard mode still not here then, since from what i read people saying there wont be any impact to the community if easy mode is there :)

> > That's because, while the easy mode adds new people to the "raiders" numbers (those that weren't able to do normal mode), hard mode only divides that community (into those that can do hard, and those that cannot, and must do normal).

>

> And theres probability normal mode people can split again into easy mode which will left normal mode empty. Maybe because the rewards, their playtime change etc, who knows

They'd really have to dislike normal mode first for it to happen. They'd definitely not do it for efficiency. And other reasons (like the playtime change) would get them out of normal mode anyway.

 

Basically the only people from normal mode it would lose are those that _do not really want to be there_.

 

> @"nia.4725" said:

> I think that if easy mode was finally implemented, normal mode raiders would go there to:

>

> a) see how the thing is and never come back

> b) get the weekly rewards, filling the LFG with fast runs (potentially problematic for those who just want a chilled run; I think normal raiders would end up _flooding_

> the LFG), then go back to normal mode

> c) have a meme fiesta (honestly, I think a lot of us would laugh a lot at the cheesed mechanics)

> d) meme-speedrun videos

 

None of which is any danger to normal mode. And b) would likely be out, if we used the fractal method (where you get all the rewards up to the tier you completed, so you wouldn't feel the need to do lower ones as well).

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

>You should considering becoming a scarecrow, since you really like building straw men.

 

Sorry, no straw in that one I have *literally* heard people asking for harder raid content to be added, oh, and *of course* they insist that it offer better rewards than the current ones. I'd drag up several examples, but I'm far too lazy, if you're curious just check any of the threads with "hard" in the title. On this forum, at least, you might want to avoid that on other forums.

 

>I don't know why you keep calling them sins,

 

*I'm* not calling them that, it's an established thing. I shouldn't need to explain this. I even provided a link!

 

>But you're not. Plenty of people you've been arguing with are okay conceptually with an easy mode.

 

Ok, and that might cover *some* of what I'm talking about, so far as the easy mode they are "okay conceptually with" has anything to do with the version I'd like to play.

 

>You know that guy Feanor you've been arguing with for 20 pages or so? He went into the 20 man raid thread and said this:

 

Yes, and I've discussed that potential with him. I think a 20-man raid might be interesting, but I actually believe it would be harder to implement successfully than the type of mode I'm looking towards, and overall I don't think it would be the best solution for various reasons. There's an entire other thread about that though, so this isn't the best place to go into the details.

 

> [You refuse to accept that you currently can farm open world for the envoy armor; amass a ludicrous amount of gold at Istan; say 100 days for 20k, then buy the raids]

 

Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

 

>And you just have not budged one bit on them.

 

Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. I'm open to any proposal that will *achieve* those goals. I set reasonable, achievable goals at the start of this. I didn't "pre-spin" my argument for haggling. I didn't ask for $20 when I was willing to settle for $10, I just asked for $10 right out the gate and expect to walk away with $10.

 

>Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids?

 

Nope, because I have no veto power in what happens. If ANet wants to implement an easy mode that would be completely against everything I've said, then they will do so. I can't stop them, and wouldn't really want to, but whether they did that or not, I would continue to argue for them to improve it.

 

> @"BillC.4521" said:

> Since each boss gives you 1 li then 1 wing will give you 1 li on easy mode. Next

 

On average, yes, although since part of the point of easy mode is convenience it would not be a good idea to require you to complete the *entire* wing to get the reward, which is why we've been discussing some sort of "Legendary Splinter," which would drop 1:1 with Li, but you'd need to collect 3 or so of them to combine them into Lis.

 

>2 things confusing me here, first you want easy mode as easy as scale 10 on fotm, then you want easy mode have equal time or longer time than normal mode to clear. How do you want to achieve that? More health? But since the dmg and mechanic nerfed probably people still gonna do it so its still better than normal mode.

 

Again, we have been discussing this thing a LONG time. After a lot of discussion, the solutions I tend to favor involve nerfing the boss damage on things like OHKO attacks, so that the odds of *surviving to the end* of boss encounters are much higher, and removing all "timer" elements like range timers and destructible environments entirely, so that the match could theoretically last hours, and then just either leave the boss HP alone or raise the HP a bit. Since current groups are already maxed for DPS, and since the target groups of easy modes would tend towards tankier builds anyway, I would expect completion times the same or longer than the current ones, the primary difference is that completion would be much more likely.

 

>I wont be upset if they choose to do easy mode. I will probably do easy mode myself. But people will be upset to anet just like what you did right now because their normal mode die and thats because easy mode more appealing to everyone

 

People get upset about any change to the game, that doesn't mean that on balance the change is a bad one. This change would open raids up to a much larger portion of the game's population, and on balance, that's a good thing.

 

>But here we are on this thread where people upset because anet decide to make challenging content for people who ask for it and locking an armor behind it.

 

Because that is an exclusionary act, it's creating new content that is not approachable to most of the game's population. This would be *expanding* that audience, which is why it's a net positive. Basically more people are *better off* when it's done, rather than worse off.

 

>Might as well put legend armor on gemstore so everyone can buy it.

 

Not my preferred solution, but it would be better than leaving them as raid-exclusive.

 

>And player that want something without doing the hardwork dont deserved to be rewarded too

>If you want something you need to work for it.

 

It's a *game.* There's no such thing as "hard work" in a game, it's all just play. "are you having fun" is the ONLY virtue that matters.

 

> @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said:

> I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding.

 

What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better?

[thrag.9740]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

 

Pick one

 

[Teamkiller.4315]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> >You should considering becoming a scarecrow, since you really like building straw men.

> Sorry, no straw in that one I have *literally* heard people asking for harder raid content to be added, oh, and *of course* they insist that it offer better rewards than the current ones. I'd drag up several examples, but I'm far too lazy, if you're curious just check any of the threads with "hard" in the title. On this forum, at least, you might want to avoid that on other forums.

 

Ah, I see what the issue is. You have _so many_ critics that you've conflated them all into one megacritic, so you have no idea who said what, so you just assume everyone thinks the same exact things. Unfortunately it doesn't matter that you heard someone else argue for it, _I_ haven't argued for it, so you're guilty of committing a straw-man. Are you going to complain to merriam-webster so they can change the definition of a strawman? :lol:

 

> *I'm* not calling them that, it's an established thing. I shouldn't need to explain this. I even provided a link!

 

You're being extremely disingenuous by invoking irrelevant religious scripture when the context was ordinary and commonly observed human emotions.

 

> Yes, and I've discussed that potential with him. I think a 20-man raid might be interesting, but **I actually believe it would be harder to implement successfully**

> **I ACTUALLY believe it would be HARDER to implement successfully**

> **HARDER**

 

_Incredible_

 

> Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

 

Then I hope you're also not expecting your status of _No Envoy Armor_ to change anytime soon either :lol: .

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> >And you just have not budged one bit on them.

> Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. I'm open to any proposal that will *achieve* those goals. I set reasonable, achievable goals at the start of this. I didn't "pre-spin" my argument for haggling. I didn't ask for $20 when I was willing to settle for $10, I just asked for $10 right out the gate and expect to walk away with $10.

 

Yeah you just admitted you're not open to compromise, glad we got that sorted out.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> >Has it ever occurred to you that your extreme position is actually making easy mode raids more unlikely and ruining it for those people who actually want to see fair easy mode raids?

> Nope

 

What were those things you were accusing raiders of? Selfishness? Entitlement?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon.

>

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves.

>

> Pick one

>

 

Why?

 

> @"Teamkiller.4315" said:

> Ah, I see what the issue is. You have so many critics that you've conflated them all into one megacritic, so you have no idea who said what, so you just assume everyone thinks the same exact things.

 

More that I see no value in fighting individuals. I argue against *ideas,* wherever they come from. Just because you don't personally support hard mode, but it's fair to point out that many of those fighting against easy mode do, and they want even *better* rewards for the mode they want to play, like they're some sort of Zinc Saucier or something. I raised that point in response to your accusation that "i'm not good enough so make it easier" should not be considered valid feedback. The person I'm referring to may not be you personally, but he certainly does exist and participates in this thread, which is more than can be said for the "I just want everything for free" guy that everyone keeps referencing.

 

>You're being extremely disingenuous by invoking irrelevant religious scripture when the context was ordinary and commonly observed human emotions.

 

It's not so much scripture as relatively common human philosophical beliefs. Even outside of any specific orthodoxy, traits like Envy and Pride are typically considered negative ones that humans should *try* to avoid, and that should not be *rewarded.* Personally I was just amused that you *chose* to list two of them as if they were positive human virtues.

 

>>Yes, and I've discussed that potential with him. I think a 20-man raid might be interesting, but I actually believe it would be harder to implement successfully

 

>Incredible

 

I went into the details earlier with Feanor, but given the difficulties they had getting raid squads" working right, I do believe that raising the cap to 20 would cause its own technical issues that might take them more time to iron out. On top of that, having twenty people running around in encounters meant for 10, with enemy attacks and player effects that are meant to deal with ten potential targets, yes, I believe these would present hurdles that would make it difficult to implement. The easy mode version I favor would involve relatively modest tweaks to existing designs, and leave the team size and compositions alone, so I do believe that would be easier to implement. I may be wrong, but only someone with specific inside knowledge of the relevant systems could know for sure.

 

>Then I hope you're also not expecting your status of No Envoy Armor to change anytime soon either :lol: .

 

Perhaps not, but I'd rather do it right than to cheat my way to success.

 

>Yeah you just admitted you're not open to compromise, glad we got that sorted out.

 

Again, my "compromise position" was the one I offered at the start. I wasn't here to play games, ask for twice what I wanted so I could haggle it down to half that, I just presented a fair position and expect to walk away with that fair position. "Compromise" is not automatically a virtue. As I said, I'm willing to discuss all sorts of proposals as to *how* we can achieve those goals while keeping everyone as satisfied as possible, but I have never implied that I would be willing to abandon either of those goals, nor is there any reason why I should. They are both good goals that *should* be achieved.

 

>What were those things you were accusing raiders of? Selfishness? Entitlement?

 

Yes, and I stand by that assessment.