nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"thrag.9740" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > @"ChronosCosmos.9450" said: > > > > > > > > I understand your concerns and I think that one idea will appeal to all of us. Implement practice mode for Raids. As it is now, there is no way to prepare as a beginner for a Raid other than the Raid itself. Don't make the Raid easier. Right now the problem is that people cannot find groups because they do not know how to raid. A practice mode fixes all of that. It would be very helpful to upcoming players if they went through the actions of the Raid in a practice mode. It will benefit the game a lot and get more people into Raiding. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What would your "practice mode" offer that the current raids do not? How would it be better? > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: Practice mode is there for players to understand the mechanics so that they can complete the normal raids to gain LI and KP. > > > > > > > > > > > > A practice mode would just act as a dumb down guide for players who have never done the raid. Most groups now require experience and a lot of it. As a beginner, you will never be able to begin a raid or find a group. What practice mode offers is that it will let players be able to go through the actions of the raid with other beginners or others who are looking to be better at the mechanics as well. Most people are hesitant to find a group because they are afraid of being a liability to the group. Most groups will kick players who do not have any LI and KP. Practice mode allows players who do not have LI and KP to band together to acquire experience. It will also let players know that Raiding isn't as difficult as others make it seem. The difficult part is gaining the LI and KP to find groups. Practice mode will expand the raiding community and make it less of a hassle to create groups or find players by making the raiding community larger. > > > > > > > > > > > > Edit: As for the practice mode itself: > > > > > > > > > > > > 1. It should only go through the mechanics of the raid and shouldn't reward or penalize players for doing it. > > > > > > 2. The bosses should deal less damage, but have the same mechanics as the raid. > > > > > > 3. Players will now understand which skills and traits to bring for the many different raids in GW2. > > > > > > 4. Experienced raiders also gain benefit from practice mode if they do not know the mechanics of any single raid. A lot of players are comfortable with a couple of raids and not all of them. It will also allow the testing of builds for raids without it being too much of a hassle. > > > > > > 5. Create and LFG for practice mode. > > > > > > 6. Practice mode will cost less gold because players won't have to use consumables to learn the mechanics. Some consumables cost 1g+ for 30 minutes. > > > > > > 7. It will indirectly benefit ArenaNet by creating longevity for the players which in time will increase their sales on their online shop. > > > > > > 8. It will expand the raiding community and decrease the amount of scrutiny between beginners and experienced players. > > > > > > 9. It will also make it so that more DPS classes are accepted because of the experience acquired because your DPS is a lot different in raids than against kittybot. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, that basically describes the easy mode we've been discussing, with the exception being that while I want it to be *usable* for practice as you describe it, I also want it to be a self-supporting game mode of its own, with rewards and everything. It would offer less rewards than normal raids, roughly 1/3 as much, but would allow players to progress *without* having to ever step foot in the actual raids. I feel that there is a value in a training mode, but that without rewards it will likely get underused, as players will quickly either move on to the actually rewarding mode, or they will give up entirely. > > > > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"thrag.9740" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > Correct, I do not accept raid-buying as a viable path toward obtaining the armor. Don't expect that to change any time soon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > > Yes, because those are my positions. I'm flexible about how to *achieve* those goals, I'm not flexible on the goals themselves. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Pick one > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ah I see, your not correctly comprehending what I am pointing out. I am not literally telling you to pick one. I am pointing out that you claim to be flexible in your means to achieve a goal, yet you choose to completely ignore a route to your goal which allows you to achieve raid rewards by playing any content you want. > > > > > > > > > > Are you talking cheating? No, I will not cheat to achieve the goal. It has to be a path to earn the rewards through direct gameplay, not paying someone else to play for me. "Flexible" doesn't mean throwing principles completely out the window. > > > > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > > > > > > > Possibly true, but like back when Dungeons had the "zerk warrior meta," there was still no issue finding non-meta groups. The "hardcorz speed farming" groups may exist, but they don't want lowbie newbs on their team anyway, so they would obviously want to advertise their group in a way that discourages those players from trying to join. If a "casual easy mode" player is looking for a group to join, it shouldn't be that hard to see which is which, and even though mistakes will be made, it's still better than no option at all. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > How is that cheating? Is it cheating if someone buy materials from TP? Is it cheating if someone pay someone to open specific boss? Is it cheating if someone is giben gold for opening his/her home instance to another? From my point it is all the same thing. You pay gold to player for something they did. Its less cheating then buying gems for real money. > > > > > > It's cheating if you're paying another player to play the game for you. Period. > > > > For me, it would be cheating too. I will get my kills and titles myself, or I won't get them. But that doesn't justify your "I don't want to play normal raids so anet pls pls pls nerf them for me and also give me the envoy armor". > > The players don't define the rules, the creators do, and Anet has been clear. How in the world the word cheating became subjective is beyond me. You have misunderstood the sentence. I'm not saying what is cheating and what's not. I'm saying that, for me, buying raids feels like cheating. It isn't, but in my moral system it feels like that. If I ever bought a kill I would feel like a cheater. Anet dictates the rules but no one can dictate how I feel about myself. Do you understand now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Easy envoy armor. For minimum effort. Whats next? Easy warbringer? Easy sublime armor skin? > > I don't know, do you want those? I don't see why not. > > Literally. Here's why: Instant/easy gratification destroys your drive to play. When you get everything in the game, there's nothing more to go for. The game is the same, but there's no reason for you to return there. You've done it all, you've got it all. Worse, you don't even want everything in the game, so this effect manifests when you get the subset of everything that you actually want. So that's why not. Every game needs to give its players goals to work toward, or they will go through it once and move on. This is perfectly valid, *but not for a MMO*. MMOs have a different business model which relies on having a big enough player population. And since you cannot rely on drawing new players at the same rate you did on launch, you have to find ways to keep them in your game. Hope this helps your understanding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > You want legendary armor for free (and yes, what you are proposing is basicaly free)? > > > > > > Nope. > > > > > > > Well i will not find it in this disscusion but I am sure you said that you want group of random players with random builds to be able to kill boss on 1 or 2 tries. I guess we agree on the fact that random player will play less perfectly then raider. If they should be able to clear then there cannot be a mechanic that wipe the squad for 1 mistake. Also there cannot be dps check. And if there is none preasure (nothing tgat can cause a wipe) then it is just a dps golem and you can kill golem by auto atacking. > > > > Agreed. And that is still not "free" because it still requires *effort.* It requires less focus, certainly, but that does not make it "free," at least no more "free" than the current raids are. I mean, technically every reward in the game is "free" in that you don't have to spend money for it, but if you are using the term to mean "no effort expended," then it would not apply to any raid mode I advocate for, and I find the use of the term unnecessarily prejudiced. I was part of cairn training and many players were failing mechanics so commander decided that expept druids everyone will use only aa chains. We killed him. After few seconds i let go my mouse and only thing i did (exept using special action to green) was sidestep teleports. When you remove greens because they are too punishing then you rly dont need mouse or spells. You should get envoy armor because you bothered to press d to sidestep teleport once in few seconds instead of afking. So much effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: >Instant/easy gratification destroys your drive to play. We're not talking "instant" gratification though, because these methods, even by my position, should take longer to earn than the existing ones. As for "easy gratification," the thing is, for people who are already raiding, they already have their method. For players who are not currently raiding, the rewards may as well not even exist. They are not a motivating factor because they are too far out of reach. It's fine to dangle a carrot just in front of a horse's nose, but there's no point dangling it half a mile away, he's just not going to chase that at all. This is about providing a method that is more in reach of a large swath of players not served by the current options. Again, if the original carrot is in reach for you, then that *should remain* the best option for getting it, not lease of which because you guys claim to actually *enjoy* playing that way, but also because it will be the "easiest" and most efficient route if it's a path you're suited to follow at all. tl;dr for the people that this mode would impact, "easy gratification" will always be better than "zero gratification." >When you get everything in the game, there's nothing more to go for. The game is the same, but there's no reason for you to return there. You've done it all, you've got it all. Ok, but who are you arguing against here, because any plan I've proposed would take players *longer* to reach that point than using their current options, so you're basically *supporting* my point if anything. > And since you cannot rely on drawing new players at the same rate you did on launch, you have to find ways to keep them in your game. And again, nothing about anything I support would reduce that. I'm *adding* reasons for people to play, *not* reducing them. We've already been over this before, so I don't know why you refuse to take in inconvenient information. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > I was part of cairn training and many players were failing mechanics so commander decided that expept druids everyone will use only aa chains. We killed him. After few seconds i let go my mouse and only thing i did (exept using special action to green) was sidestep teleports. > When you remove greens because they are too punishing then you rly dont need mouse or spells. So if that's possible now, then what, exactly, would be lost by making that option available more consistently? I'm all for guaranteeing that everyone has to be invested in the mechanics, my *only* goal is to reduce cases where individual screw-ups can crash an entire attempt completely. I believe that individual failures should cost time, not reset the whole thing from scratch. > You should get envoy armor because you bothered to press d to sidestep teleport once in few seconds instead of afking. So much effort. It's an amount of effort that ANet seems content with for the bulk of their game, and that the majority of players seem content with as well. Why is it that Envoy armor is the one skinset in the game that should be exempt from that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Feanor.2358 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > >Instant/easy gratification destroys your drive to play. > > We're not talking "instant" gratification though, because these methods, even by my position, should take longer to earn than the existing ones. The "/easy" part of my sentence which you thoroughly ignored is there for a reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"Feanor.2358" said: > > >Instant/easy gratification destroys your drive to play. > > > > We're not talking "instant" gratification though, because these methods, even by my position, should take longer to earn than the existing ones. > > The "/easy" part of my sentence which you thoroughly ignored is there for a reason. Um, I did a whole paragraph about it. I was just getting the easiest error out of the way first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > There are less then 20 bosses and you can kill all of them in less then 4 hours. I am playing more then 4 hours each week. That means that i kill some bosses multiple times per week because raids are fun and there is nothing else to do. > > > I think if easy raids were added to the game many raiders would do full clear of easy raids after normal full clear just because they have nothing to do and easy raids are free (for them) rewards but it is not mindless. Thats why i loved f40 farm, it was great for gold but your income was incresed if you mastered it and diference between 2 minutes runs and 3 minute runs was enormous. > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > They'd get no more rewards for doing easy + normal than for just normal, though, so there would be no point in farming. > > > > So then clear easy first and then do normal? I guess it would be way to complicated to introduce something that check if you already done normal/easy. Remember, how fractal tier rewards are done? with rewards split in tiers as well? It should be done that way, and then you have no reason to do lower difficulty when you can already do higher. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Also what about doing half bosses easy and other normal... What of it? If someone would be doing boss on easy and not on normal it's because they'd feel they are more likely to fail than succeed on normal. It's no loss for groups doing normal, because those groups would not want to group with those players anyway. Again, you would benefit from easy difficulty encounter only if you couldn't do the normal one. If you _could_ do normal, there would be no reason why you shouldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > There are less then 20 bosses and you can kill all of them in less then 4 hours. I am playing more then 4 hours each week. That means that i kill some bosses multiple times per week because raids are fun and there is nothing else to do. > > > > I think if easy raids were added to the game many raiders would do full clear of easy raids after normal full clear just because they have nothing to do and easy raids are free (for them) rewards but it is not mindless. Thats why i loved f40 farm, it was great for gold but your income was incresed if you mastered it and diference between 2 minutes runs and 3 minute runs was enormous. > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > They'd get no more rewards for doing easy + normal than for just normal, though, so there would be no point in farming. > > > > > > > So then clear easy first and then do normal? I guess it would be way to complicated to introduce something that check if you already done normal/easy. > Remember, how fractal tier rewards are done? with rewards split in tiers as well? It should be done that way, and then you have no reason to do lower difficulty when you can already do higher. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Also what about doing half bosses easy and other normal... > What of it? If someone would be doing boss on easy and not on normal it's because they'd feel they are more likely to fail than succeed on normal. It's no loss for groups doing normal, because those groups would not want to group with those players anyway. > Again, you would benefit from easy difficulty encounter only if you couldn't do the normal one. If you _could_ do normal, there would be no reason why you shouldn't. > > You have a point but then it would be dificulty tiers and anet said they dont want to do tiers in raids Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > There are less then 20 bosses and you can kill all of them in less then 4 hours. I am playing more then 4 hours each week. That means that i kill some bosses multiple times per week because raids are fun and there is nothing else to do. > > > > > I think if easy raids were added to the game many raiders would do full clear of easy raids after normal full clear just because they have nothing to do and easy raids are free (for them) rewards but it is not mindless. Thats why i loved f40 farm, it was great for gold but your income was incresed if you mastered it and diference between 2 minutes runs and 3 minute runs was enormous. > > > > > I predict that easy raids lfg would be filled with farm groups that would be much more toxic then normal raids because they would care only about the speed since it is not a raid but farm to them. > > > > They'd get no more rewards for doing easy + normal than for just normal, though, so there would be no point in farming. > > > > > > > > > > So then clear easy first and then do normal? I guess it would be way to complicated to introduce something that check if you already done normal/easy. > > Remember, how fractal tier rewards are done? with rewards split in tiers as well? It should be done that way, and then you have no reason to do lower difficulty when you can already do higher. > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > Also what about doing half bosses easy and other normal... > > What of it? If someone would be doing boss on easy and not on normal it's because they'd feel they are more likely to fail than succeed on normal. It's no loss for groups doing normal, because those groups would not want to group with those players anyway. > > Again, you would benefit from easy difficulty encounter only if you couldn't do the normal one. If you _could_ do normal, there would be no reason why you shouldn't. > > > > > > You have a point but then it would be dificulty tiers and anet said they dont want to do tiers in raids If we were talking about "what ANet wants to do" then there would be no point to speculation. If it was something they already wanted to do, it probably would be in already. We're talking about things that they *should* do, whether it's already their intention or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 There were a lot of things they didn't want that we have now (raids being one of them - they originally were very strongly against any instanced content for groups greater than 5). There were a number of things they once wanted that hopefully we'll never get (raising level cap, for example). Anet keeps changing their minds on many things quite often. Sometimes on their own, sometimes due to player feedback. It is very likely that the raids will eventually change in some way as well, even if we can't predict now in what way and how fast it might happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > I was part of cairn training and many players were failing mechanics so commander decided that expept druids everyone will use only aa chains. We killed him. After few seconds i let go my mouse and only thing i did (exept using special action to green) was sidestep teleports. > > When you remove greens because they are too punishing then you rly dont need mouse or spells. > > So if that's possible now, then what, exactly, would be lost by making that option available more consistently? I'm all for guaranteeing that everyone has to be invested in the mechanics, my *only* goal is to reduce cases where individual screw-ups can crash an entire attempt completely. I believe that individual failures should cost time, not reset the whole thing from scratch. > > > You should get envoy armor because you bothered to press d to sidestep teleport once in few seconds instead of afking. So much effort. > > It's an amount of effort that ANet seems content with for the bulk of their game, and that the majority of players seem content with as well. Why is it that Envoy armor is the one skinset in the game that should be exempt from that? It is possible now. I wonder why you cannot do it then. Its an amount of effort that anet think is apropriate fot other gamemodes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > I was part of cairn training and many players were failing mechanics so commander decided that expept druids everyone will use only aa chains. We killed him. After few seconds i let go my mouse and only thing i did (exept using special action to green) was sidestep teleports. > > > When you remove greens because they are too punishing then you rly dont need mouse or spells. > > > > So if that's possible now, then what, exactly, would be lost by making that option available more consistently? I'm all for guaranteeing that everyone has to be invested in the mechanics, my *only* goal is to reduce cases where individual screw-ups can crash an entire attempt completely. I believe that individual failures should cost time, not reset the whole thing from scratch. > > > > > You should get envoy armor because you bothered to press d to sidestep teleport once in few seconds instead of afking. So much effort. > > > > It's an amount of effort that ANet seems content with for the bulk of their game, and that the majority of players seem content with as well. Why is it that Envoy armor is the one skinset in the game that should be exempt from that? > > It is possible now. I wonder why you cannot do it then. > > Its an amount of effort that anet think is apropriate fot other gamemodes Well, but I mean that's my point. You're saying "oh, it's so easy now, you can just stumble in drunk and the boss explodes instantly because you're just too pretty" or whatever. Well ok, if that's the case, when what sort of "hard core challenge" are you even gatekeeping? Either the content is so hard that you really need to know what you're doing and be prepared and coordinated for it, or it isn't. If it is, then there are a lot of players that aren't interested in that sort of experience, and would really enjoy a much less demanding version of it. If it's not, when why bother fighting against an even easier version, because the horses are already out of the barn. Which is it, are raids "super easy" or at they "challenging content that can't be allowed to be watered down?" It can't be both at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > I was part of cairn training and many players were failing mechanics so commander decided that expept druids everyone will use only aa chains. We killed him. After few seconds i let go my mouse and only thing i did (exept using special action to green) was sidestep teleports. > > > > When you remove greens because they are too punishing then you rly dont need mouse or spells. > > > > > > So if that's possible now, then what, exactly, would be lost by making that option available more consistently? I'm all for guaranteeing that everyone has to be invested in the mechanics, my *only* goal is to reduce cases where individual screw-ups can crash an entire attempt completely. I believe that individual failures should cost time, not reset the whole thing from scratch. > > > > > > > You should get envoy armor because you bothered to press d to sidestep teleport once in few seconds instead of afking. So much effort. > > > > > > It's an amount of effort that ANet seems content with for the bulk of their game, and that the majority of players seem content with as well. Why is it that Envoy armor is the one skinset in the game that should be exempt from that? > > > > It is possible now. I wonder why you cannot do it then. > > > > Its an amount of effort that anet think is apropriate fot other gamemodes > > Well, but I mean that's my point. You're saying "oh, it's so easy now, you can just stumble in drunk and the boss explodes instantly because you're just too pretty" or whatever. Well ok, if that's the case, when what sort of hard core challenge" are you even gatekeeping? > > Either the content is so hard that you really need to know what you're doing and be prepared and coordinated for it, or it isn't. If it is, then there are a lot of players that aren't interested in that sort of experience, and would really enjoy a much less demanding version of it. If it's not, when why bother fighting against an even easier version, because the horses are already out of the barn. > > Which is it, are raids "super easy" or at they "challenging content that can't be allowed to be watered down?" It can't be both at once. They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. Thing get more interesting if you dont play it just to somehow clear but to clear with finese, cleanly and in decent speed. I personaly swap 4 diferent sets/traits in one raidwing just because I like to make maximal contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > > > > It's an amount of effort that ANet seems content with for the bulk of their game If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. Aurora - open world Veilrender - pof maps Ad infinitum - fractals Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw Mistward armor - open world..... I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > > > > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > > > > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? > > > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > Aurora - open world > Veilrender - pof maps > Ad infinitum - fractals > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > Mistward armor - open world..... > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. Yeah, aurora looks so good but when I think about all it requires I feel like... no, I won't do that, nope nope no, no. Same with HoT and PoF legendaries -I love some of them, but I'm not willing to spend endless hours doing metas for the amalgamated gemstones and OW events. At least the core legendaries can be crafted by doing some short events and spending a (smaller) quantity of gold. But here Ohoni is going to say that he agrees with giving those things alternate paths too, and that if we want them we should start a discussion about it, and that he will even support it. We don't want alternate paths tho, because we think it's fair that only those who play that content get that reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. Well I was more specifically referencing Butcher's point about "If envoy wasn't tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere." If envoy were available in *both* normal and easy mode raids, then why would normal mode require yet another absolute exclusive? Why couldn't it just be like CoF path 1 and CoF path 3 where both reward CoF tokens? > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Aurora - open world > Veilrender - pof maps > Ad infinitum - fractals > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > Mistward armor - open world..... > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. I'll be honest, I'm really kind of tired of this argument. "You can't get X, without doing Y, **and I'm fine with that,"** presumably the unsaid conclusion to that thought would be "and because **I'm** fine with it, you should be too." Well no, that doesn't track. If you're fine with something like that, then that's. . . fine. Whatever. You don't have to be bothered if you don't want to be bothered. But you *can* be bothered. It's ok for you to be bothered by something like that. It makes sense and is an equally valid response, and if you are bothered, if anyone is bothered, then they have the right to try to seek out alternatives. [You being "fine" with a situation](https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/this-is-fine-meme-625x350.jpg) does not somehow make it wrong for anyone else to [*not* be fine with it.](https://thenib.imgix.net/usq/16df25e7-709a-4b61-bdc4-560d7bd8cf3d/this-is-not-fine-tout.png) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > > > > > > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > > > > > > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? > > > > > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > > > Aurora - open world > > Veilrender - pof maps > > Ad infinitum - fractals > > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > > Mistward armor - open world..... > > > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. > > Yeah, aurora looks so good but when I think about all it requires I feel like... no, I won't do that, nope nope no, no. Same with HoT and PoF legendaries -I love some of them, but I'm not willing to spend endless hours doing metas for the amalgamated gemstones and OW events. At least the core legendaries can be crafted by doing some short events and spending a (smaller) quantity of gold. > > But here Ohoni is going to say that he agrees with giving those things alternate paths too, and that if we want them we should start a discussion about it, and that he will even support it. > > We don't want alternate paths tho, because we think it's fair that only those who play that content get that reward. I feel the same. I actualy crafted the shining blade. I had hot almost completed from getting hero points and wvw i "cheated" by joining squad, getting max participation and then afking for 10 minutes. Its not pretty but i found a way. Other components can be purchased for gold and since i can abuse tp i have enough gold. I didnt include core legendaries since they can be bought but gen.2 legendaries can be there too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > > > > > > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > > > > > > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? > > > > > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > > > Aurora - open world > > Veilrender - pof maps > > Ad infinitum - fractals > > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > > Mistward armor - open world..... > > > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. > > Yeah, aurora looks so good but when I think about all it requires I feel like... no, I won't do that, nope nope no, no. Same with HoT and PoF legendaries -I love some of them, but I'm not willing to spend endless hours doing metas for the amalgamated gemstones and OW events. At least the core legendaries can be crafted by doing some short events and spending a (smaller) quantity of gold. > > But here Ohoni is going to say that he agrees with giving those things alternate paths too, and that if we want them we should start a discussion about it, and that he will even support it. > > We don't want alternate paths tho, because we think it's fair that only those who play that content get that reward. You can craft amalgamated stones or buy them, you can buy the 15k elder wood planks + the mithril, the only actual thing you cant buy is the maguuma gift. Everything else is obtainable with gold. (except the first 4 Gen 2 legendaries) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > @"nia.4725" said: > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > > > > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > > > > > > > They are easy but not super easy. If you want to just get a kill you need usualy 3-5 sentences of explanation and you are prepared (if you are not using minstrell dps or something like that). Obviously some bosses are more dificult but some like VG, MO, escort and cairne require short explanation and 1-2 more experienced players (usualy tank/chrono and healer). Other bosses are more dificult and harder to get into but the easier should help you with that. I think that if it was any easier it would lost its defining feature. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, but why would that be a bad thing, given that not everyone *wants* what you consider to be a "defining feature," and players that do want it, such as yourself, would have no reason to participate in the alternate version? Who is harmed? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >If i reacted to this poorly i apologise. I ment that the kind of effort that anet wants for other parts of their game dont have to be same as effort needed for raids. Sorry if i said this poorly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ok, no offense taken, certainly. I just don't see the need for a hard line between "raids" and "not raids." Obviously, some players want to have a very serious level of challenge in the game, and raids (to whatever degree) seems to offer that. Other players don't care about that challenge factor, but want the other elements that are currently bundled under "raids." So why can't they take all the things about raids that *aren't" the "serious challenge" aspects, and then offer those at a level of difficulty consistent with the rest of the game's content? If that level of difficulty is considered "good enough" for *everything* in the game that isn't raids, then why can't it also be considered good enough for a *side version* of raid content for those that would enjoy that sort of thing? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As I said like 20 pages ago the reason why i want envoy armor to stay "locked" behind raids is this: Raids are dificult content yet mindless farms like silverwastes are more lucrative. If raider wants a legendary weapon he get it later than player that do silverwastes even when silverwaste/istan is much easier to do. Envoy represent something that silverwaste cannot get faster then a raider. If envoy wasnt tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere (lets call it envoy2.0 -> same problem) or more gold then from silverwastes and and that would mean incresing gold to more then ten times (since you can only get reward once a week) > > > > > > > > > > Maybe, but if there are easy mode raids, you couldn't get those in Silverwaste either, players would still have to spend their time farming the easy mode raids (again, *more* time than they'd spend farming the current raids). > > > > > > > > > > Bigger picture though, why should raids have something you can't get anywhere else? Why should raids be special? > > > > > > > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > > > > > Aurora - open world > > > Veilrender - pof maps > > > Ad infinitum - fractals > > > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > > > Mistward armor - open world..... > > > > > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. > > > > Yeah, aurora looks so good but when I think about all it requires I feel like... no, I won't do that, nope nope no, no. Same with HoT and PoF legendaries -I love some of them, but I'm not willing to spend endless hours doing metas for the amalgamated gemstones and OW events. At least the core legendaries can be crafted by doing some short events and spending a (smaller) quantity of gold. > > > > But here Ohoni is going to say that he agrees with giving those things alternate paths too, and that if we want them we should start a discussion about it, and that he will even support it. > > > > We don't want alternate paths tho, because we think it's fair that only those who play that content get that reward. > > You can craft amalgamated stones or buy them, you can buy the 15k elder wood planks + the mithril, the only actual thing you cant buy is the maguuma gift. Everything else is obtainable with gold. (except the first 4 Gen 2 legendaries) Gold isn't going to give me the thophies I need to get doing events for Nevermore, nor it's going to give me map currency to buy the tributes to the crown I need for the shards of the crown for The Shining Blade. You can buy shards with laurels (10 laurel for 3 shards), but it's such a small quantity that it would take ages to get all the shards needed. I know that I could buy a lot of mats tho. If you read carefully my post, I say "spending a **(smaller)** quantity of gold". The amount of gold needed to buy mats for those legendaries is absurd, and core legendaries are cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 15, 2018 Share Posted May 15, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > Raids are special and so is all that other content that has its own tied skins and rewards. It's not like raids are anything unique, Ohoni. There's plenty of other content that has things that can't be obtained anywhere else. > > > > The thing is that your opinion is that all things should be available in several paths, and we don't agree with you. There isn't much discussion here, since no one is going to change their opinion on the matter. > > Well I was more specifically referencing Butcher's point about "If envoy wasn't tied to raids then i want normal raids to provide something you cannot get elsewhere." If envoy were available in *both* normal and easy mode raids, then why would normal mode require yet another absolute exclusive? Why couldn't it just be like CoF path 1 and CoF path 3 where both reward CoF tokens? > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Aurora - open world > > Veilrender - pof maps > > Ad infinitum - fractals > > Wvw legendary beckpack - wvw > > Mistward armor - open world..... > > > > I will never get aurora (and i would want it) bacause i dont want to play open world. I dont complain. Its what it is, same as envoy. > > I'll be honest, I'm really kind of tired of this argument. "You can't get X, without doing Y, **and I'm fine with that,"** presumably the unsaid conclusion to that thought would be "and because **I'm** fine with it, you should be too." Well no, that doesn't track. If you're fine with something like that, then that's. . . fine. Whatever. You don't have to be bothered if you don't want to be bothered. But you *can* be bothered. It's ok for you to be bothered by something like that. It makes sense and is an equally valid response, and if you are bothered, if anyone is bothered, then they have the right to try to seek out alternatives. [You being "fine" with a situation](https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/this-is-fine-meme-625x350.jpg) does not somehow make it wrong for anyone else to [*not* be fine with it.](https://thenib.imgix.net/usq/16df25e7-709a-4b61-bdc4-560d7bd8cf3d/this-is-not-fine-tout.png) And the fact that you're not fine with something does not mean that thing is flawed or wrong. You're the one seeing the flames there. I do not see any fire in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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