ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >If someone come to me and ask WHY they cannot carry their weight and WHAT should they do to not be a burden I will explain to him what to focus on, some tricks both with setting and in game that makes it easier..... But player that doesnt want this kind of help but instead want from me to do it for him will not get my help. Thats a rule I set to myself when i first encountered someone that needed help and i live by it since. > > Right, which is why I'm not asking for help from you or any other player, I'm asking for an alternate mode where such help would not be needed. > > >Also raids are teambased content. Its idea is that everyone need to carry each other. And you have to adapt, both during actual raid and when joining. For example if you see your dps is low then you go for slow cc/updraft on gorseval. And when you know you have problems in raids its better to pick sb3 instead of weaver. > > Right, which is why the existing raids just aren't suitable for a lot of people that play this game, and there should be an alternate version that is less demanding. > > >>This is why real world "hard work" examples really make absolutely no sense in a game analogy, because the primary reason people get *paid* in the real world is not "because they worked hard," it's because "they accomplished a *task* that *someone* was willing to pay to have it done." > > >Someone=Anet > >money=Envoy armor > >task=legendary armor achievment > > > Right, but the problem with that scenario is, ANet doesn't benefit from players clearing raids. It's not like a factory where every time someone completes a raid, ANet makes $5, so it's worth their interest to pay that worker $3 so that they'll do it. Whether a hundred raid instances are cleared in a day, or zero, ANet makes the same amount of money. **They have no financial interest in players doing any specific task.** > > What they *do* have an interest in is *player engagement,* In players *spending time in the game,* and *enjoying* that time spent in the game. This fact remains true whether that player enjoys raiding, or farming moas. So long as the player is having fun, he is "doing it right." If, at any point, the player is *not* having fun, then he is *doing it wrong,* and ANet would have made a mistake in creating a system that would incentivize that player to engage in that activity. > > To a factory, they don't care whether the worker is having fun, they only care how many products he finishes per shift. For a game, it's the opposite, they have no reason to care about player productivity, they only need to care how that might lead to engagement and enjoyment. > > >If Anet decides that envoy should be given for free i will respect that ad adapt. But i guess there might be some players that would (rightfuly) feel coned by this and that would reflect on their future investments in the game. > > As was the case with many other similar decisions that this game has made over the years, and that other games have made as well? I do know people that left the game because raids were introduced, should they be removed to try and get them back? > > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > >I shortened your quotes. Sorry in advance if that does offend you. You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay. > > It's all relative. I don't mind that people don't learn "the basic gameplay" as you think of it, and they shouldn't either, so long as they are enjoying themselves. I like systems that give you plenty of options, but that don't *require* that you make masterful advantage of them. If people do figure out a way to min-max their way to a really powerful state, that's fine, but I don't want that to be a necessary part of the process. It take the fun out of having options when there's only one "correct" answer. > > I accept that it's "too easy" *for you,* I just don't except that this is somehow a bad thing. > > >How much whining have we had in the forums because the Eater of Souls fight was too hard, > > To be fair, it was pretty tricky, depending on build. I got through it on the first try, but it was likely more luck than not that I avoided his worst attacks and had a decent build for him (I had a DD, so I was able to Steal to breakbar him, and/or dodge super far away if he tried to heal off me). He had some very serious damaging attacks if you didn't know how to handle him, and I can understand people's annoyance with him. It wasn't entirely that as a standalone encounter he was way too hard, but it did make sense within the *context* of him being a boss at the end of a relatively long story chapter, *after* a previous boss fight, and blocking progression into the story. If he'd been some optional boss that you only had to fight if you wanted to fight him, I doubt many would have complained, or even if he was just in a much shorter story step that was easier to ditch and pick up later, but within the context he was presented, I think that the more casual players had every reason to be upset with the specific challenges involved. > > >So: How about making the main game a bit more difficult to teach people how to carry their own weight (which MMORPGs should do in the first place)? > > Or, just accept that they don't want to be molded into little machines, and just present opportunities for them to enjoy themselves, at whatever skill level they bring to the table? > > > @"Cerioth.7062" said: > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > > "too easy" for whom? Remember, difficulty _is_ relative. > > > > And I think THIS is the key to this whole conversation. _Difficulty is relative._ Even if you make easy mode raids, it is still going to be TOO difficult, TOO repetitive, TOO hard to understand or whatever to some people. Learning to ds these game modes how they were originally intended is the healthiest solution. > > "Too some people?" Sure, probably. It's impossible to please everyone. But we can't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. If 90% of players raided regularly, I couldn't justify having an easy mode just to try and satisfy the other 10%. But all data we've been able to find indicate that less than 25%, likely *far* less than 25% raid regularly, so it stands to reason that they could do *better* in satisfying players. The goal with an easy mode would not be "a mode that *everyone* would enjoy," the goal would just be "a mode that *many* players that fall more towards the 'easy' side of the game would enjoy." It would be pegged at a difficulty level that should be consistent with content that most players have completed, and therefore that most players should be comfortable with, and yeah, some players would still find it "too hard," but even so, the chances that ten of them would wind up on the same PUG would be fairly low, and having even a decent number of better players should be able to carry them through it. > > That's the nice thing about raids, with solo you're on your own, and with dungeons 1-2 bad players make up a large chunk of the party to compensate for, but with ten people, if it's balanced to be fairly easy, then the odds are that the average group skill level will still be fairly high relative to the content. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >I wasnt saying that you want it free. I was saying what if they make it free. > > *But,* nobody is asking for that, so why speculate? > > > @"Sarrs.4831" said: > > It still kinda tickles me that the argument keeps swinging back to wanting the rewards rather than the actual merits of the content. > > Again, it's *always* been about both, but typically when the argument *does* swing back to rewards, it's because some gatekeeper is saying "but you *obviously* can't have rewards. . ." > > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > I've never in all my years of gaming have run into something like an 'Elitist Casual' (if you understand what I am getting at) until GW2. If there's any downside to offering the most open MMO experience to the most wide range of audiences, it is bringing in players who honestly shouldn't be playing an MMO but instead a Single-player game since they clearly cannot cooperate with others in any slight amount of coordination. I can admire Arenanet for what they have done, but this is a good example of what happens when you make more than 90% of an MMO game a 'soloish' experience. > > Honestly, your problem here is in not understanding _why GW2 **works.**_ I've been playing MMOs since the 90s, I loved the massive, expansive worlds they contained (relative to other games at the times), and I loved being *around* other players, but I never enjoying "partying," I never enjoyed having to actually group up with other players, form a formal alliance, just to tackle content. I enjoyed being in the same space as the other players, fighting enemies alongside them as they came up, but I liked to come and go as I pleased. Obviously, in some games this worked better than others, with various systems that would penalize working together if not in a formal group, or make doing so pointless, and in many cases making a lot of content impossible to solo. GW2 did the best job so far of actually *embracing* the playstyle I'd been chasing for over a decade, and I'm convinced that it was a major factor in its success. It was the best game at allowing you to play *with* other players, without forcing you to formally group up or directly coordinate your actions (for most content). > > I just think there are a lot of people coming at this game from other MMOs, and expecting GW2 to be more *like* those other MMOs, without appreciating that so much of what they consider to be a "bug," is actually some of the most core *features* of the game. Ok. Anet does make money of me playing raids bevause i wouldnt play the game if raids were not added - less expansions sold. Lets say there are 10% of comunity raiding. Do you honestly thing that at least 20 percent of non raiders want to rakd but cannot because its too hard? I dont want to sound dissrespectful but i think from those that doesnt raid, eirher they will in the future or they habe 0 intention of doing that. I get that someone want just to turn brain off after work and just mindlessly wander around. But I think that those that think that raids are too hard just simply dont want to try. I refuse to belive that it is too hard for someone to do (exept someone dissabled). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Ok. Anet does make money of me playing raids bevause i wouldnt play the game if raids were not added - less expansions sold. Just as they make money from me *not* playing raids. My point was, they don't make money *per* raid completed, if you like raids, they want you playing raids. If I don't like raids, they want *equally* as much for me to *not* be playing raids. That's my point here, in actual work, they have an incentive for employees to complete "content" whether those employees enjoy it or not. In a game, they have NO such incentive, their only incentive is to encourage players to play what *they* enjoy playing. This is why the hard work should be rewarded, laziness should not" "protestant work ethic" argument simply NEVER applies to gaming in ANY form. > Lets say there are 10% of comunity raiding. Do you honestly thing that at least 20 percent of non raiders want to rakd but cannot because its too hard? Yes. More than that, most likely. > I dont want to sound dissrespectful but i think from those that doesnt raid, eirher they will in the future or they habe 0 intention of doing that. IF they are left in their current form, I would totally agree. I think most players *never* want to play raids *as they are today,* just as most people will never want to complete a marathon, or eat 5-alarm ghost pepper chili, or climb a tall mountain. IF, however, a much easier, more casual, more accessible version were added, the "jog around the block", or "moderately spicy chili," or "climb a moderate hiking path" route, then I believe the audience broadens considerably, there would be way more people who would actually *enjoy* that sort of content. > I refuse to belive that it is too hard for someone to do (exept someone dissabled). It's not that it's "too hard to do," it's that it's "too hard to go through the steps necessary to do it." The people who "don't want to raid," don't want to spend hours on fruitless "training raids." They don't want to spend long blocks of time pruning out the players needed for a "meta build" without weak links. They don't want to have to use voice coms, or pre-schedule hours-long raid sessions at set time blocks. They don't want to have to find and master a meta build, accumulate the gear to support it, etc. Basically they don't want to do all the things you'd need to do to meaningfully contribute to the existing raids. But an easy mode wouldn't require that. An easy mode would allow you to just roll in, joining an existing LFG (with no preconditions), or make your own and expect it to be filled adequately in minutes, hop into the map, clear the boss within a half hour or less, and then get on with your life. And yes, experienced raiders might be able to pull that off too, sometimes, but this would allow players to do this *without* the dozens of hours it would take to reach that level of convenience. So again, it's not that players could *never* clear the existing raids, it's that they *do not want to do the things they would need to do,* but they would eb up for the easier, less demanding version. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Ok. Anet does make money of me playing raids bevause i wouldnt play the game if raids were not added - less expansions sold. > > Just as they make money from me *not* playing raids. My point was, they don't make money *per* raid completed, if you like raids, they want you playing raids. If I don't like raids, they want *equally* as much for me to *not* be playing raids. That's my point here, in actual work, they have an incentive for employees to complete "content" whether those employees enjoy it or not. In a game, they have NO such incentive, their only incentive is to encourage players to play what *they* enjoy playing. This is why the hard work should be rewarded, laziness should not" "protestant work ethic" argument simply NEVER applies to gaming in ANY form. > > > Lets say there are 10% of comunity raiding. Do you honestly thing that at least 20 percent of non raiders want to rakd but cannot because its too hard? > > Yes. More than that, most likely. > > > I dont want to sound dissrespectful but i think from those that doesnt raid, eirher they will in the future or they habe 0 intention of doing that. > > IF they are left in their current form, I would totally agree. I think most players *never* want to play raids *as they are today,* just as most people will never want to complete a marathon, or eat 5-alarm ghost pepper chili, or climb a tall mountain. IF, however, a much easier, more casual, more accessible version were added, the "jog around the block", or "moderately spicy chili," or "climb a moderate hiking path" route, then I believe the audience broadens considerably, there would be way more people who would actually *enjoy* that sort of content. > > > I refuse to belive that it is too hard for someone to do (exept someone dissabled). > > It's not that it's "too hard to do," it's that it's "too hard to go through the steps necessary to do it." > > The people who "don't want to raid," don't want to spend hours on fruitless "training raids." They don't want to spend long blocks of time pruning out the players needed for a "meta build" without weak links. They don't want to have to use voice coms, or pre-schedule hours-long raid sessions at set time blocks. They don't want to have to find and master a meta build, accumulate the gear to support it, etc. Basically they don't want to do all the things you'd need to do to meaningfully contribute to the existing raids. > > But an easy mode wouldn't require that. > > An easy mode would allow you to just roll in, joining an existing LFG (with no preconditions), or make your own and expect it to be filled adequately in minutes, hop into the map, clear the boss within a half hour or less, and then get on with your life. And yes, experienced raiders might be able to pull that off too, sometimes, but this would allow players to do this *without* the dozens of hours it would take to reach that level of convenience. > > So again, it's not that players could *never* clear the existing raids, it's that they *do not want to do the things they would need to do,* but they would eb up for the easier, less demanding version. They doesnt make money from you not playing raids. They make money from you playing other parts of gw2. If raids were not in game you would still be playing. Their profit from you as a player has 0 connection to raids. My rrason to playing has 100% connection to raids. If there was easier way to get to raids (its not as hard as someone might think but still hard) do you think that you/other players that have problem with raids now would try it or they would still require easier encounters? And you dont need training for hours. On some bosses (like mo, escort..) you need 10 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: >They doesnt make money from you not playing raids. They make money from you playing other parts of gw2. If raids were not in game you would still be playing. Their profit from you as a player has 0 connection to raids. My rrason to playing has 100% connection to raids. Again, I think you are missing my point here, but I'm struggling to come up with a simpler way of explaining it for you. My point is just [they do not benefit directly from anyone completing a raid], therefore [raids are not a commodity worthy of "payment"], and therefore ["work ethic" is not a concept that can be applied to whether or not you have completed a raid]. The rewards from raids are a gift that they give players, not something players are owed, and players who do other activities are in no way owed *less* than players who spent their time raiding. >If there was easier way to get to raids (its not as hard as someone might think but still hard) do you think that you/other players that have problem with raids now would try it or they would still require easier encounters? I listed a set of reasons why people do not raid, the stack of inconveniences that cause non-raiders to say "nope, not interested in that mess," and moving on. If you could present a system in which those conveniences are not a factor, then sure, that'd be fine. I just don't see it as likely. Let's give a simple checklist, if you can manage to take the existing raid encounters, and successfully negate these considerations: * The player needs to be able to log in any time of day or week, different times each time if they prefer, and yet still find raid groups that will accept them, and have a better than even chance of completing the encounter. * In most cases, time between log-in and an encounter completion would be under an hour, and in many cases under 30 minutes. * Any rules players would need to follow could be easily communicated via chat in a relatively short period of time. * Either [a player or two making simple mistakes would not lead to a complete wipe and reset of the encounter] OR [it is guaranteed that no players in the squad would ever make such mistakes (or very rarely, at least)]. * The player either [does not need to have a meta build set-up or meta gear] OR [acquiring a meta build and meta gear is free and effortless (like PvP Medallion swapping)] * The player does not need any 3rd party software or hardware, such as DPS meters or voice chat software. * The player is not limited to only *some* of the encounters, *all* raid encounters would meet all of these conditions successfully, allowing them to progress through them in any order they'd like. If those conditions could be met for thousands of players at a time, then sure, I think the existing raids could work fine. But if the question is "If players could easily find a raid group, but chances are it would fail," or "they could maybe do some of the encounters, but couldn't expect to do all of them that conveniently," then it wouldn't be enough to draw in the casual players. That isn't the experience they are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > >They doesnt make money from you not playing raids. They make money from you playing other parts of gw2. If raids were not in game you would still be playing. Their profit from you as a player has 0 connection to raids. My rrason to playing has 100% connection to raids. > > Again, I think you are missing my point here, but I'm struggling to come up with a simpler way of explaining it for you. > > My point is just [they do not benefit directly from anyone completing a raid], therefore [raids are not a commodity worthy of "payment"], and therefore ["work ethic" is not a concept that can be applied to whether or not you have completed a raid]. The rewards from raids are a gift that they give players, not something players are owed, and players who do other activities are in no way owed *less* than players who spent their time raiding. > > >If there was easier way to get to raids (its not as hard as someone might think but still hard) do you think that you/other players that have problem with raids now would try it or they would still require easier encounters? > > I listed a set of reasons why people do not raid, the stack of inconveniences that cause non-raiders to say "nope, not interested in that mess," and moving on. If you could present a system in which those conveniences are not a factor, then sure, that'd be fine. I just don't see it as likely. Let's give a simple checklist, if you can manage to take the existing raid encounters, and successfully negate these considerations: > > * The player needs to be able to log in any time of day or week, different times each time if they prefer, and yet still find raid groups that will accept them, and have a better than even chance of completing the encounter. > * In most cases, time between log-in and an encounter completion would be under an hour, and in many cases under 30 minutes. > * Any rules players would need to follow could be easily communicated via chat in a relatively short period of time. > * Either [a player or two making simple mistakes would not lead to a complete wipe and reset of the encounter] OR [it is guaranteed that no players in the squad would ever make such mistakes (or very rarely, at least)]. > * The player either [does not need to have a meta build set-up or meta gear] OR [acquiring a meta build and meta gear is free and effortless (like PvP Medallion swapping)] > * The player does not need any 3rd party software or hardware, such as DPS meters or voice chat software. > * The player is not limited to only *some* of the encounters, *all* raid encounters would meet all of these conditions successfully, allowing them to progress through them in any order they'd like. > > If those conditions could be met for thousands of players at a time, then sure, I think the existing raids could work fine. But if the question is "If players could easily find a raid group, but chances are it would fail," or "they could maybe do some of the encounters, but couldn't expect to do all of them that conveniently," then it wouldn't be enough to draw in the casual players. That isn't the experience they are looking for. Yea, this cannot be done in exostong raids. Some of those points can be done (or are already done) but few just cannot. They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. If raids are not in game -> i am not playing -> anet cannot make money from me. Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward. They already have you as a potential money source and it is not connected to raids. Chamges to raids will most likely not make yoz pay more/less. If they change raids to open world level then you will stop playing once openworld is not fun for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. Yes, obviously, I never disputed this point, it can stop being brought up. My point was just that the "work ethic" does not apply here, because completing a raid is not "work," it is "play." Your "play" is not more important or valid than anyone else's play. I'm not making an argument against raids being in the game, or against you playing them, I am making an argument against them being "more worthy" than other activities. >Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward. Raids should still offer a high *quantity* of loot, given the level of time and engagement that goes into clearing them. I would be fine with them raising the existing amount a bit if necessary. But beyond that, if players need additional incentives to raid, if they don't *want* to raid unless they get things that nobody else can get, then they aren't worth bothering over. Let them not raid. >If they change raids to open world level then you will stop playing once openworld is not fun for you. I don't expect that I would play them *forever,* but I would play them for a while, and new players would rotate in and out over time. Since they would be more casual in nature, you would have more casual drop-ins. The overall population playing them at any given time would likely stay higher than the population currently raiding (*on top of* the people still doing the normal mode raids). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. > > Yes, obviously, I never disputed this point, it can stop being brought up. My point was just that the "work ethic" does not apply here, because completing a raid is not "work," it is "play." Your "play" is not more important or valid than anyone else's play. > > I'm not making an argument against raids being in the game, or against you playing them, I am making an argument against them being "more worthy" than other activities. > > >Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward. > > Raids should still offer a high *quantity* of loot, given the level of time and engagement that goes into clearing them. I would be fine with them raising the existing amount a bit if necessary. But beyond that, if players need additional incentives to raid, if they don't *want* to raid unless they get things that nobody else can get, then they aren't worth bothering over. Let them not raid. > > >If they change raids to open world level then you will stop playing once openworld is not fun for you. > > I don't expect that I would play them *forever,* but I would play them for a while, and new players would rotate in and out over time. Since they would be more casual in nature, you would have more casual drop-ins. The overall population playing them at any given time would likely stay higher than the population currently raiding (*on top of* the people still doing the normal mode raids). Btw do you play fractals? And what tier of fractal dificulty would be right for easy raid in your oppinion. There are players that want to raid but if it is not rewarding enough they might do something else if they need gold. And the other thing might not be fun for them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Btw do you play fractals? And what tier of fractal dificulty would be right for easy raid in your oppinion. I don't currently, but I have in the past. My current target would be tier 10, but that's mainly because I haven't bothered investing in AR, so potentially higher tiers would also be fine. Not likely anywhere past the halfway point, of course. Remember, the idea is not to make it "just a tiny bit less difficult than the current raids," what would even be the point of bothering? The goal is to make them *very noticeably easier,* to appeal to a much larger audience. > There are players that want to raid but if it is not rewarding enough they might do something else if they need gold. And the other thing might not be fun for them Yeah. but that's true of everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. > > Yes, obviously, I never disputed this point, it can stop being brought up. My point was just that the "work ethic" does not apply here, because completing a raid is not "work," it is "play." Your "play" is not more important or valid than anyone else's play. > > I'm not making an argument against raids being in the game, or against you playing them, I am making an argument against them being "more worthy" than other activities. > > >Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward. > > Raids should still offer a high *quantity* of loot, given the level of time and engagement that goes into clearing them. I would be fine with them raising the existing amount a bit if necessary. But beyond that, if players need additional incentives to raid, if they don't *want* to raid unless they get things that nobody else can get, then they aren't worth bothering over. Let them not raid. > > >If they change raids to open world level then you will stop playing once openworld is not fun for you. > > I don't expect that I would play them *forever,* but I would play them for a while, and new players would rotate in and out over time. Since they would be more casual in nature, you would have more casual drop-ins. The overall population playing them at any given time would likely stay higher than the population currently raiding (*on top of* the people still doing the normal mode raids). Raids aren't more worthy, better or superior than other activities and I don't think many of us have said that. They're just a different activity, an activity designed to be a greater challenge aimed for those players who want something more difficult. And something more difficult does not mean something more worthy. However though, raiding requires a greater effort than many other activities in GW2. It requires a greater amount of time, a greater effort to learn and play. You can do OW playing however you want, you can do OW doing a perfect DPS rotation or autoattacking, but you don't have that choice in raids. And anet should reward that greater effort accordingly, that's why we got the Envoy armor. You could say that OW still deserves a legendary armor and I may or may not agree with you, that's a different discussion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Btw do you play fractals? And what tier of fractal dificulty would be right for easy raid in your oppinion. > > I don't currently, but I have in the past. My current target would be tier 10, but that's mainly because I haven't bothered investing in AR, so potentially higher tiers would also be fine. Not likely anywhere past the halfway point, of course. Remember, the idea is not to make it "just a tiny bit less difficult than the current raids," what would even be the point of bothering? The goal is to make them *very noticeably easier,* to appeal to a much larger audience. > > > There are players that want to raid but if it is not rewarding enough they might do something else if they need gold. And the other thing might not be fun for them > > Yeah. but that's true of everything. Tiers are 1-4. I guess you ment as hard as fractal lvl 10? I will continue to talk to you just because i remembered when i started playing fractals with 400 ap and thought that it was hard. **** This. I was trying but this is it. I dont know why i was even listening. OW dificulty is 95+% of the game and you want to invade the only 1 part of pve that actualy require braincells to complete and change it to your crazy standards. And you think that just because there are more casual then elitists in the game you have a right to change it. There are 5% raiders and raids are 5% percent of the game. The rest have rest of the game to sleep in. No raider asked to make your part of the game raid dificulty. We gave some ideas to make raids easier accesible to begginer/not as hardcore players but all you do is say i dont want this and that. Well you know what, if you dont want that JUST DONT DO IT. To other non raiders i apologise. I dont have any problem with you and I am willing to disscuse inteligent ideas with you. Most of you said some valid points. I will just stop reacting to posts made by this lunatic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > Raids aren't more worthy, better or superior than other activities and I don't think many of us have said that. Ehhhhh, that's a tough claim to make. I'm not accusing you personally of anything in this regard, but there are plenty of people in these threads that have expressed positions along the lines of "any other content, no matter how much of it you do, cannot add up to even a single raid completion," or "people who have completed the raid deserve something to show off [how much better they are than everyone who hasn't]," or "if you don't raid, then you don't *deserve* 'raid rewards.'" You can speak for yourself, but others have spoken on this as well. >However though, raiding requires a greater effort than many other activities in GW2. It requires a greater amount of time, a greater effort to learn and play. And that's why I believe that it can provide a higher *quantity* of reward, something worth the time, something worth the added attention. I'm just saying, there shouldn't be anything that you can acquire from 100 hours of raiding that you couldn't acquire from, say, 200-300 hours of doing something else. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Tiers are 1-4. I guess you ment as hard as fractal lvl 10? Yes, that's what I meant. As I said,l I haven't actually done Fractal stuff in a while, because all the interesting stuff they've added seems to be at an AR level I won't have. and like I said, it's possible that higher levels would be fine too, I just haven't had personal experience with them due to the AR requirements, so I'm in no position to judge. >**** This. I was trying but this is it. I dont know why i was even listening. OW dificulty is 95+% of the game and you want to invade the only 1 part of pve that actualy require braincells to complete and change it to your crazy standards. Again, I want to leave the existing raids *entirely alone,* or perhaps even add to them by buffing their reward payouts. If you like the raids, keep doing them. All I'm fighting for is a *new* mode, an alternative that *you* will **never** have any reason to enter, but that I believe tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands would enjoy participating in. >Well you know what, if you dont want that JUST DONT DO IT. Unfortunately, while I don't want to do them in their current form, and have been quite up front about that, I DO want to play them in a more casual, easy mode experience, and I do want a path towards the rewards currently locked behind raids. "Just don't do it" is not a path that would leave me happy any more than "just do it" would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Ehhhhh, that's a tough claim to make. I'm not accusing you personally of anything in this regard, but there are plenty of people in these threads that have expressed positions along the lines of "any other content, no matter how much of it you do, cannot add up to even a single raid completion," or "people who have completed the raid deserve something to show off [how much better they are than everyone who hasn't]," or "if you don't raid, then you don't *deserve* 'raid rewards.'" You can speak for yourself, but others have spoken on this as well. Well, there are some nuances here that can make correct/incorrect these sentences (in my opinion). _people who have completed the raid deserve something to show off [how much better they are than everyone who hasn't]_ Yeah, people who have completed the raid deserve something to show off. But not to _show off huw much better they are_, but to _show off that they have completed the raid_. Some people here might need to compare themselves to others, but those are quite often the true elitists that no one wants to see in their squad. I honestly don't care about showing off and even less about comparing myself to other players, and my only opinion about the Envoy armor is that it's ugly and that it doesn't even mean that the player is good. You can get your first set with 150LI only, and honestly? 150LI does not mean that a player is experienced in raids. There are a lof of people that have the Envoy and haven't even killed certain bosses. I have friends that have the Envoy and have killed certain bosses required for the Envoy less than 5 times. So well, we could say it's to show off... but it really does not mean anything. If a player feels superior to others just because they have the Envoy... xDDDDDDD I mean, having the Envoy only means that you're rich. Yes, if you don't raid you don't deserve raid rewards. If you don't do WvW you don't deserve WvW rewards, either. There isn't a lof of possible discussion about this, I believe that rewards tied to content are fair and good and you don't and none of us is going to change their opinion about it. You could say "but it's unfair that the PvE legen armor is tied to raids!" and okay, I could be a little more open about this and tell you that yes, OW could have a legen armor, but in that case that legen armor should be different from the Envoy, because the Envoy is for raids just like the Triumphant Hero is for WvW and the Glorious Hero is for PvP. However this creates another problem: if you were to get another armor for PvE, which type of content should it require? Just OW? Fractals, like legendary weapons and the Envoy itself? If it requires fractals someone will complain that they don't like fractals and that they should have a way to get it just by doing OW. If they don't, fractal players who don't enjoy OW will complain that they don't like OW and that thy should have a way to get it just by doing fractals. What I mean with this is that you will never please everyone. Then you could say something that you have already said: but anet should try to make _as many people happy as possible_, and that means that the requirements for the legendary armor should be low (in terms of fractal tiers required, for example) so that it can appeal and be reached by the majority of players. But does anet want that? I'm not quite sure. I mean, anet has interest in getting players progressing through content tiers. If you make everything available in a low tier, then why would players actually try to get into higher tiers? This aspect of game design is very interesting, in my opinion. There will be surely lots of different opinions about it, and I don't think there's only 1 correct way of designing a reward system. I think it depends on a variety of things you, nor me nor anyone but Anet, knows for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: >Yeah, people who have completed the raid deserve something to show off. But not to show off huw much better they are, but to show off that they have completed the raid. Why do you believe that anyone would have cared that you had completed the raid, if you did not believe it was some form of accomplishment? Now, I agree that it is completely laughable that they think anyone would be impressed that they had completed a bunch of raids, I'm just saying that this is *their* justification for why they need exclusive access to Envoy armor. > if you were to get another armor for PvE, which type of content should it require? Just OW? Fractals, like legendary weapons and the Envoy itself? What I would like to see is more truly ala-carte reward systems. Don't require that you MUST do A, B, and C to get a reward, let people do *any* combination of [A-D] + [E-H]+[i-N]+[O-Z], like you need to accumulate a set of ingredients, but each ingredient can be found in multiple locations in the game, similar to how with Legendary Weapons you can get dungeon tokens from dungeons OR from PvP tracks, OR through WvW tracks. If someone wants to only do Fractals? Fine. Only raid? Fine. Only OW? Fine. Mix and Match? Also fine. As for "requiring fractals," I don't have a problem with that either, so long as it's limited to only the floors that don't require AR. Anything above that should be opt-in. >I mean, anet has interest in getting players progressing through content tiers. No they don't. They only have an interest in players progressing through as many tiers as they enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Raizel.8175" said: > >I shortened your quotes. Sorry in advance if that does offend you. You can't honestly tell me with a straight face that the main game is not too easy when people don't even learn basic gameplay. > > It's all relative. I don't mind that people don't learn "the basic gameplay" as you think of it, and they shouldn't either, so long as they are enjoying themselves. I like systems that give you plenty of options, but that don't *require* that you make masterful advantage of them. If people do figure out a way to min-max their way to a really powerful state, that's fine, but I don't want that to be a necessary part of the process. It take the fun out of having options when there's only one "correct" answer. You have no idea how MMORPGs usually work, do you? It's not relative. There always is a set minimum that comes down to basic gameplay. People at least have to know the basics to enable some form of reasonable group-oriented gameplay or your game won't work as MMORPG. That's also the problem GW2 has. Raids are the perfect example that the game is unable to teach the basics, else (1) raids wouldn't be as niche as they're and (2) we wouldn't have such stupendous entry-requirements. > >So: How about making the main game a bit more difficult to teach people how to carry their own weight (which MMORPGs should do in the first place)? > > Or, just accept that they don't want to be molded into little machines, and just present opportunities for them to enjoy themselves, at whatever skill level they bring to the table? We are not talking about some sort of tryhard-gameplay you brought into the discussion in the first place. We are talking about basic gameplay - nothing more, nothing less. This is a MMORPG. People need to be able to expect that other people know basic stuff, else a game can't work as MMORPG. > > @"Sykper.6583" said: > > I've never in all my years of gaming have run into something like an 'Elitist Casual' (if you understand what I am getting at) until GW2. If there's any downside to offering the most open MMO experience to the most wide range of audiences, it is bringing in players who honestly shouldn't be playing an MMO but instead a Single-player game since they clearly cannot cooperate with others in any slight amount of coordination. I can admire Arenanet for what they have done, but this is a good example of what happens when you make more than 90% of an MMO game a 'soloish' experience. > > Honestly, your problem here is in not understanding _why GW2 **works.**_ I've been playing MMOs since the 90s, I loved the massive, expansive worlds they contained (relative to other games at the times), and I loved being *around* other players, but I never enjoying "partying," I never enjoyed having to actually group up with other players, form a formal alliance, just to tackle content. I enjoyed being in the same space as the other players, fighting enemies alongside them as they came up, but I liked to come and go as I pleased. Obviously, in some games this worked better than others, with various systems that would penalize working together if not in a formal group, or make doing so pointless, and in many cases making a lot of content impossible to solo. GW2 did the best job so far of actually *embracing* the playstyle I'd been chasing for over a decade, and I'm convinced that it was a major factor in its success. It was the best game at allowing you to play *with* other players, without forcing you to formally group up or directly coordinate your actions (for most content). Again, in my opinion, Vanilla-GW2 is not a real full-fledged MMORPG. It's still too much of a single-player-experience with optional multiplayer just like GW1 was. It seems that ANet also realized that and focused more on actual MMORPG-content like raids and fractals. The (conceptual) damage to the game was already done though and up to this day, GW2 still really doesn't work well as MMORPG. It's a good game, but a bad MMORPG. GW2 works because most rewards and content caters to the singleplayer-audience and is so easy that it's open for everyone. Together with the B2P-aspect and the horizontal gear-progression, you have a potentially large audience for you game with which you can reel in quite a lot of money. On a superficial level, this probably looks fine, but if you look more closely, you see a lot of cracks in the facade. The biggest (but only one of many) of these cracks is raiding-content, because people just can't have Envoy Armor the easy way. While GW2 works, it's far from being healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sykper.6583 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 There's nothing that raids aren't doing right now in game that isn't already being done elsewhere. As Arenanet has continued to deliver new content on any stage, or revamped rewards, they've also decisively tied exclusive rewards to those systems. Raids having exclusive rewards is **no different than PvP having Glorious Armor, or WvW having Triumphant or Mist Weapons.** All other things aside, Raiding as an activity is in line with other components that make GW2 great. The simple addition of Raiding does **NOT** and has **NOT** hurt the image of GW2 being a casual game as they've continued to support and add more open world and story content for the game several times larger in scale. All the above is fine. There's literally nothing wrong with having a wide arrange of activities on different difficulty or playstyle specific routines. If there's ANYTHING that's actually imbalanced here, both PvP and WvW don't have ENOUGH exclusive skins tied to them but dedicated players in those game-modes actually have other focuses than just looks, PvPers would rather just focus on trying to avoid the 'dead game mode' memes and WvW is still waiting on a literal revamp of their entire world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > Why do you believe that anyone would have cared that you had completed the raid, if you did not believe it was some form of accomplishment? Now, I agree that it is completely laughable that they think anyone would be impressed that they had completed a bunch of raids, I'm just saying that this is *their* justification for why they need exclusive access to Envoy armor. I don't think anyone cares. But _I_ care. I don't need to show off for others. I'll give you an example. I have the Demon's Demise/Silent Savior titles and I use them in some of my characters: my druid, because it's the character that really deserves to wear the title (since I did all CMs with her), my offensive chrono (because it fits her), my revenant (because her healing equipment is all Deimos themed therefore having the Demon's demise makes all the sense in the world) and my healing chrono (Silent Savior, because this is what she does). Does anyone care about me having those titles? I don't know, I don't think so and I don't care. But I care about the titles, because I am proud of the effort I did to get them. So I use them, I "show off". > What I would like to see is more truly ala-carte reward systems. Don't require that you MUST do A, B, and C to get a reward, let people do *any* combination of [A-D] + [E-H]+[i-N]+[O-Z], like you need to accumulate a set of ingredients, but each ingredient can be found in multiple locations in the game, similar to how with Legendary Weapons you can get dungeon tokens from dungeons OR from PvP tracks, OR through WvW tracks. If someone wants to only do Fractals? Fine. Only raid? Fine. Only OW? Fine. Mix and Match? Also fine. Conceptually it's a cool idea and even raiders would benefit of it. I mean, I absolutely hate OW requirements for legendary weapons and I would love to be able to get those legendaries by playing exclusively what I want to play, but I'm not sure it's healthy for the game. You think it is, I know. But, me, I'm not sure. As I already said this depends on the strategy Anet has and only Anet knows how they want to reward, who they want to reward and in which amount. I could try to explain more about why I think it's desirable to get players involved in higher content tiers but I don't think I have enough knowledge of game design to be able to discuss this matter much further. I'd need to have a chat with my game design teacher or read some books. > No they don't. They only have an interest in players progressing through as many tiers as they enjoy. You don't know that. You can't know that unless you're working at Anet. I said it already, game design is not a single option being correct and you don't know which option is Anet's. Are you a game designer at Arenanet? No? Then you don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raizel.8175 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"nia.4725" said: > Conceptually it's a cool idea and even raiders would benefit of it. I mean, I absolutely hate OW requirements for legendary weapons and I would love to be able to get those legendaries by playing exclusively what I want to play, but I'm not sure it's healthy for the game. You think it is, I know. But, me, I'm not sure. As I already said this depends on the strategy Anet has and only Anet knows how they want to reward, who they want to reward and in which amount. I could try to explain more about why I think it's desirable to get players involved in higher content tiers but I don't think I have enough knowledge of game design to be able to discuss this matter much further. I'd need to have a chat with my game design teacher or read some books. It's not healthy. You have to incentivize doing certain content in order to fill that content with life. Many people are still doing HoT-metas for their exclusive rewards. Nobody is doing events like Serpent's Ire though. If it wouldn't matter what you're doing, we'd end up with the majority of people brainlessly grinding RIBA/CF or Istan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nia.4725 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: > > @"nia.4725" said: > > Conceptually it's a cool idea and even raiders would benefit of it. I mean, I absolutely hate OW requirements for legendary weapons and I would love to be able to get those legendaries by playing exclusively what I want to play, but I'm not sure it's healthy for the game. You think it is, I know. But, me, I'm not sure. As I already said this depends on the strategy Anet has and only Anet knows how they want to reward, who they want to reward and in which amount. I could try to explain more about why I think it's desirable to get players involved in higher content tiers but I don't think I have enough knowledge of game design to be able to discuss this matter much further. I'd need to have a chat with my game design teacher or read some books. > > It's not healthy. > > You have to incentivize doing certain content in order to fill that content with life. Many people are still doing HoT-metas for their exclusive rewards. Nobody is doing events like Serpent's Ire though. If it wouldn't matter what you're doing, we'd end up with the majority of people brainlessly grinding RIBA/CF or Istan. Yup that's what I think. It would depopulate certain activities and maps. We could say that "then those activities and maps aren't worth developing", but I don't think it's a valid statement and, even though the game designer needs to know what their playerbase wants and plays, that doesn't mean that only those things well populated are worth. All game companies must have an idea of what they want to do with their game, they can't sell themselves completely to the playerbase desires. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astralporing.1957 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Btw do you know a player that left because raids were added (and why are raids bad for the game) Yes. I do. More than one. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. > If raids are not in game -> i am not playing -> anet cannot make money from me. **Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward**. In that case they're more interested in the reward than raids, and would likely just play other content giving that reward. Players interested in the content just want the rewards to not be _worse_ than in their alternatives. Those being better is a nice extra, but is not necessary to keep them playing. Basically to keep players genuinely interested in raids in the game, all you need to offer is a reward level that's comparable to other types of content, so they do not feel they are losing out by raiding. > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > Btw do you play fractals? And what tier of fractal dificulty would be right for easy raid in your oppinion. Old t4 (by saying "old" i mean before all the recent changes and new fractals like Nightmare, Shattered, Oasis. I guess swamp in the current, reworked version would do, as the highest level of difficulty). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Raizel.8175" said: >You have no idea how MMORPGs usually work, do you? I've played dozens of them, but I've never been super serious about any of them, never been a hardcore endgame player or anything. Again, maybe other games work like that, it doesn't mean that GW2 would be *improved* by being like that too. If you prefer how those other games did it, well, I'm sure they'd take you back. >People at least have to know the basics to enable some form of reasonable group-oriented gameplay or your game won't work as MMORPG. Utter nonsense. You're establishing your own qualifications as to "what an MMORPG *must* be." All an MMORPG *must* be is a game that allows thousands of players to interact in large numbers (even if only in hubs), and that allows for some degree of story and character progression. Everything else is entirely optional, and different MMORPGs adopt different principles as they see fit. It's like you're insisting that "every MMORPG must have elves, therefore any game without elves can't qualify as an MMORPG." It's a completely arbitrary and inaccurate baseline. >Again, in my opinion, Vanilla-GW2 is not a real full-fledged MMORPG. Yes, but as we've established, your opinion is wrong. >It's a good game, but a bad MMORPG. Again though, only by using a flawed definition of what an MMORPG *must* be. > @"Sykper.6583" said: > Raids having exclusive rewards is no different than PvP having Glorious Armor, or WvW having Triumphant or Mist Weapons. Two wrongs don't make a right. Neither do three. > @"nia.4725" said: >I don't think anyone cares. But I care. I don't need to show off for others. I'll give you an example. I have the Demon's Demise/Silent Savior titles and I use them in some of my characters: my druid, because it's the character that really deserves to wear the title (since I did all CMs with her), my offensive chrono (because it fits her), my revenant (because her healing equipment is all Deimos themed therefore having the Demon's demise makes all the sense in the world) and my healing chrono (Silent Savior, because this is what she does). Does anyone care about me having those titles? I don't know, I don't think so and I don't care. But I care about the titles, because I am proud of the effort I did to get them. So I use them, I "show off". I can get that, but can't you be happy even if other people have those titles, because you know what *you* did to earn them? I got things like the Fervid Censer or Sclerite backpiece from doing the LWs1 content they were attached to. Now players can get them for laurels. Does that mean I don't fondly remember the activities *I* did to earn *mine?* Hell no. You know what you did to earn what you got, and nobody can take that away from you for earning it some other way. >You don't know that. You can't know that unless you're working at Anet. I can't know what they *want* to happen. If they'd *like* for players to advance to higher tiers, then that's their business. I'm just saying, they have no *actual benefit* to players advancing to higher tiers, the only benefit to players advancing to higher tiers is if they *enjoy* being at those higher tiers. > @"Raizel.8175" said: >Nobody is doing events like Serpent's Ire though. But doesn't Serpent's Ire have certain unique rewards? That defeats your argument that unique rewards make or break an activity. The reason people don't run Serpent's Ire (from what I hear), is that some of the encounter stages are too touchy, too prone to fail states even if most of the players are trying their best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 You know, casual elitism exists as well. It is just as frustrating (if not more), plus it is enough to make any person with baseline common sense lose his temper. You like content? Play it. You dont like content? Dont play it. Asking for a Legendary Armor set from open world, is one thing. Asking for the same skin people have put hundreds of hours of effort to acquire, is selfish. New leggy set? Sure. Easy envoy armor? Nah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ButcherofMalakir.4067 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Astralporing.1957" said: > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Btw do you know a player that left because raids were added (and why are raids bad for the game) > Yes. I do. More than one. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > They do not benefit directly from anyone compketing a raid but if someone complete raid -> he is playing -> he can make anet money. > > If raids are not in game -> i am not playing -> anet cannot make money from me. **Some players might not raid if there is not a huge reward**. > In that case they're more interested in the reward than raids, and would likely just play other content giving that reward. Players interested in the content just want the rewards to not be _worse_ than in their alternatives. Those being better is a nice extra, but is not necessary to keep them playing. > > Basically to keep players genuinely interested in raids in the game, all you need to offer is a reward level that's comparable to other types of content, so they do not feel they are losing out by raiding. > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said: > > Btw do you play fractals? And what tier of fractal dificulty would be right for easy raid in your oppinion. > Old t4 (by saying "old" i mean before all the recent changes and new fractals like Nightmare, Shattered, Oasis. I guess swamp in the current, reworked version would do, as the highest level of difficulty). > > I am playing raids because it is fun for me. I clear many bosses multiple times per week even wjen i am not rewarded for it. On the other hand i used to hardcore farm fractal 40. I liked the fact that it was good gold but it was based on my skill and teamworl with others. I havent played fo a month after they changed it. Not because new fractal is bad. And dont get me wrong the nerf was well deserved. But because silverwastes farm wasnt touched. I enjoyed the new fractal but when i played fractals i had a bitter taste that anet decided that farm thet require skill is bad for the game but farm that doesnt need skill and provide slightly lower income (and only lower if yoi tryhardes f40 farm) is healthy for the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > Asking for a Legendary Armor set from open world, is one thing. Asking for the same skin people have put hundreds of hours of effort to acquire, is selfish. Why, when it would take hundreds of hours of effort to acquire it for the easy mode too? and no, casual players asking for new content that they enjoy is not "casual elitism." "Elitism" doesn't mean "things I don't like." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamkiller.4315 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 Is it currently possible to get the fractal legendary backpiece only playing t1s? :thinking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voltekka.2375 Posted May 17, 2018 Share Posted May 17, 2018 > @"Ohoni.6057" said: > > @"Voltekka.2375" said: > > Asking for a Legendary Armor set from open world, is one thing. Asking for the same skin people have put hundreds of hours of effort to acquire, is selfish. > > Why, when it would take hundreds of hours of effort to acquire it for the easy mode too? > > and no, casual players asking for new content that they enjoy is not "casual elitism." "Elitism" doesn't mean "things I don't like." > > You know, I hope, that fractal 10 boss takes 2mins to kill, and youre saying that easy mode will require hundreds of hours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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