Please Overhaul Raids.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

Time is precious and getting older you notice that more and more. When I was mid 20 I didn't have any problems to invest time in raiding, failing like 3 hours twice a week. Today, I don't have that much time anymore, you have to work, you invest a lot of time with other being and other hobbies. Still you don't want to miss out this content, hence a more accessible mode would be welcomed. I really appreciated the LFR in WoW (and I played since vanilla).

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> Time is precious and getting older you notice that more and more. When I was mid 20 I didn't have any problems to invest time in raiding, failing like 3 hours twice a week. Today, I don't have that much time anymore, you have to work, you invest a lot of time with other being and other hobbies. Still you don't want to miss out this content, hence a more accessible mode would be welcomed. I really appreciated the LFR in WoW (and I played since vanilla).

 

Raids in WoW are around 50% of the content after expansions hit and progress the main story. In GW2 not so much. You will always miss out content. Either you have no time or interest.

[ProtoGunner.4953]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > Time is precious and getting older you notice that more and more. When I was mid 20 I didn't have any problems to invest time in raiding, failing like 3 hours twice a week. Today, I don't have that much time anymore, you have to work, you invest a lot of time with other being and other hobbies. Still you don't want to miss out this content, hence a more accessible mode would be welcomed. I really appreciated the LFR in WoW (and I played since vanilla).

>

> Raids in WoW are around 50% of the content after expansions hit and progress the main story. In GW2 not so much. You will always miss out content. Either you have no time or interest.

 

This is still no argument to miss it out. What is the problem if everyone or at least most people can do this content?

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said:

> > > Time is precious and getting older you notice that more and more. When I was mid 20 I didn't have any problems to invest time in raiding, failing like 3 hours twice a week. Today, I don't have that much time anymore, you have to work, you invest a lot of time with other being and other hobbies. Still you don't want to miss out this content, hence a more accessible mode would be welcomed. I really appreciated the LFR in WoW (and I played since vanilla).

> >

> > Raids in WoW are around 50% of the content after expansions hit and progress the main story. In GW2 not so much. You will always miss out content. Either you have no time or interest.

>

> This is still no argument to miss it out. What is the problem if everyone or at least most people can do this content?

 

1. Limited ressources. ArenaNet is not Blizzard. The time between wings is already pretty long. If you delay it further you risk loosing the current playerbase for raids. If you shift ressources from LS to raids you risk loosing people from open world. People also complain that LS releases take too long. The ressources are really thin spread.

2. Different focus. GW2 is open world focused, not on instanced content. So open world content has priority.

3. The data we have suggests that not even 50% of the player base ever played dungeons. 'Most' players will likely never play it.

4. Replayability. You can't offer gear upgrades as vertical progression doesn't exist. So you either offer something unique like legendary armor which would be better in open world for a larger audience or overtune the quantity of rewars which will destroy the economy even further.

 

Also the popularity of LFR comes from automatic matchmaking in combination with the difficulty, not the difficulty alone. ArenaNet already said years ago for dungeons that they don't like automatic grouping for PvE content.

[Ayra Lightbringer.2874]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team.

 

But there is absolutely no need for a meta team. My group outhealed greens on Vale Guardian with Core Elementalists in a Core Build Raid a few weeks ago. Other groups have killed Bosses like MO without Weapons at all, or completed whole clears with gear not worth more than 5 gold per player. Noone forces you to play Meta to clear Raidbosses, and most bosses are really easy to learn and kill. If you want to change raids make them harder, as many groups already cut through all CMs except Dhuum like a knife cuts through butter. They are already easy enough that everyone can learn to kill a raid boss within 30 minutes per boss.

 

[nia.4725]

> @"Ayra Lightbringer.2874" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team.

>

> But there is absolutely no need for a meta team. My group outhealed greens on Vale Guardian with Core Elementalists in a Core Build Raid a few weeks ago. Other groups have killed Bosses like MO without Weapons at all, or completed whole clears with gear not worth more than 5 gold per player. Noone forces you to play Meta to clear Raidbosses, and most bosses are really easy to learn and kill. If you want to change raids make them harder, as many groups already cut through all CMs except Dhuum like a knife cuts through butter. They are already easy enough that everyone can learn to kill a raid boss within 30 minutes per boss.

>

 

Being realistic, this does not apply to pugs, and pugs are the visible and main part of raiding. You really can't say that to someone who does not raid, or that just pugs. Yeah, sure a static or a very experienced group can do all you mention, but the average raider can't.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> 1. Limited ressources. ArenaNet is not Blizzard. The time between wings is already pretty long. If you delay it further you risk loosing the current playerbase for raids. If you shift ressources from LS to raids you risk loosing people from open world. People also complain that LS releases take too long. The ressources are really thin spread.

> 2. Different focus. GW2 is open world focused, not on instanced content. So open world content has priority.

> 3. The data we have suggests that not even 50% of the player base ever played dungeons. 'Most' players will likely never play it.

> 4. Replayability. You can't offer gear upgrades as vertical progression doesn't exist. So you either offer something unique like legendary armor which would be better in open world for a larger audience or overtune the quantity of rewars which will destroy the economy even further.

 

1. Again, we don't know how much time this would take to implement, or where that time would come from. I recognize that this is *potentially* an issue, but also *potentially* not, we can't know for sure. ANet does, so let's leave this one up to them.

2. True, but they spent the time to make raids in the first place, so it stands to reason they can spend the time to tweak them to be a bit easier too.

3. Just because someone hasn't completed dungeons doesn't mean they wouldn't participate in raids, and even so, the gap between "the 50% that have (according to some flawed data) "never played dungeons" and the less than 25% who "raid regularly" is *still* equal to (or more likely much higher than) the number of people who raid *at all,* I think it would be worth doing, right? Given that it would take less work than making the raids in the first place, I would think that even if *fewer* people would be interested in easy raids than currently raid, it would still be a justifiable expense.

4. The easy mode would be just as replayable as the hard, and would take longer to clean out, so if "replayability" is something you're worried about, easy mode raids would offer equal to or greater "replayability value" to the game.

 

The theory that I *think* you're operating under would only work if *every* player would *inevitably* reach *every* reward, like if it was a progression system where A leads to B leads to C and so long as you keep playing you'll eventually reach Z. Keep in mind that in terms of replayability, a reward that people are not chasing is not a valuable reward to their demographic. If less than 25% of the population raids, then the raid rewards have ZERO playability value to 75% of the game's population. By providing a path that is more tempting to the majority of the players, it makes it more likely that players will *bother* chasing after it, *raising,* not lowering, the overall replayability value.

 

> @"Ayra Lightbringer.2874" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team.

>

> But there is absolutely no need for a meta team. My group outhealed greens on Vale Guardian with Core Elementalists in a Core Build Raid a few weeks ago. Other groups have killed Bosses like MO without Weapons at all, or completed whole clears with gear not worth more than 5 gold per player. Noone forces you to play Meta to clear Raidbosses, and most bosses are really easy to learn and kill.

 

Ok, but that's not really relevant to anything we've been discussing.

 

>If you want to change raids make them harder, as many groups already cut through all CMs except Dhuum like a knife cuts through butter. They are already easy enough that everyone can learn to kill a raid boss within 30 minutes per boss.

 

Some players want a harder mode. I don't *need* that, but neither am I opposed to it. If people want that, I'm fine with that. I still find the easy mode the more necessary of the two, because it expands the audience.

 

 

[Voltekka.2375]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > 1. Limited ressources. ArenaNet is not Blizzard. The time between wings is already pretty long. If you delay it further you risk loosing the current playerbase for raids. If you shift ressources from LS to raids you risk loosing people from open world. People also complain that LS releases take too long. The ressources are really thin spread.

> > 2. Different focus. GW2 is open world focused, not on instanced content. So open world content has priority.

> > 3. The data we have suggests that not even 50% of the player base ever played dungeons. 'Most' players will likely never play it.

> > 4. Replayability. You can't offer gear upgrades as vertical progression doesn't exist. So you either offer something unique like legendary armor which would be better in open world for a larger audience or overtune the quantity of rewars which will destroy the economy even further.

>

> 1. Again, we don't know how much time this would take to implement, or where that time would come from. I recognize that this is *potentially* an issue, but also *potentially* not, we can't know for sure. ANet does, so let's leave this one up to them.

> 2. True, but they spent the time to make raids in the first place, so it stands to reason they can spend the time to tweak them to be a bit easier too.

> 3. Just because someone hasn't completed dungeons doesn't mean they wouldn't participate in raids, and even so, the gap between "the 50% that have (according to some flawed data) "never played dungeons" and the less than 25% who "raid regularly" is *still* equal to (or more likely much higher than) the number of people who raid *at all,* I think it would be worth doing, right? Given that it would take less work than making the raids in the first place, I would think that even if *fewer* people would be interested in easy raids than currently raid, it would still be a justifiable expense.

> 4. The easy mode would be just as replayable as the hard, and would take longer to clean out, so if "replayability" is something you're worried about, easy mode raids would offer equal to or greater "replayability value" to the game.

>

> The theory that I *think* you're operating under would only work if *every* player would *inevitably* reach *every* reward, like if it was a progression system where A leads to B leads to C and so long as you keep playing you'll eventually reach Z. Keep in mind that in terms of replayability, a reward that people are not chasing is not a valuable reward to their demographic. If less than 25% of the population raids, then the raid rewards have ZERO playability value to 75% of the game's population. By providing a path that is more tempting to the majority of the players, it makes it more likely that players will *bother* chasing after it, *raising,* not lowering, the overall replayability value.

>

> > @"Ayra Lightbringer.2874" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > Again, my hope for easy mode is that it will be balanced around being "more likely to survive" rather than "faster to kill." Keep the boss HP the same, just reduce his potential to deal catastrophic damage. A meta team might be able to clear an easy boss a bit faster than a normal boss, but it shouldn't be faster by a ton, and a"easy-ready" team of non-meta builds and playstyles should take quite a bit longer per kill than any meta team.

> >

> > But there is absolutely no need for a meta team. My group outhealed greens on Vale Guardian with Core Elementalists in a Core Build Raid a few weeks ago. Other groups have killed Bosses like MO without Weapons at all, or completed whole clears with gear not worth more than 5 gold per player. Noone forces you to play Meta to clear Raidbosses, and most bosses are really easy to learn and kill.

>

> Ok, but that's not really relevant to anything we've been discussing.

>

> >If you want to change raids make them harder, as many groups already cut through all CMs except Dhuum like a knife cuts through butter. They are already easy enough that everyone can learn to kill a raid boss within 30 minutes per boss.

>

> Some players want a harder mode. I don't *need* that, but neither am I opposed to it. If people want that, I'm fine with that. I still find the easy mode the more necessary of the two, because it expands the audience.

>

>

 

Easy content takes longer to clear? Really? Oh man.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > 1. Limited ressources. ArenaNet is not Blizzard. The time between wings is already pretty long. If you delay it further you risk loosing the current playerbase for raids. If you shift ressources from LS to raids you risk loosing people from open world. People also complain that LS releases take too long. The ressources are really thin spread.

> > 2. Different focus. GW2 is open world focused, not on instanced content. So open world content has priority.

> > 3. The data we have suggests that not even 50% of the player base ever played dungeons. 'Most' players will likely never play it.

> > 4. Replayability. You can't offer gear upgrades as vertical progression doesn't exist. So you either offer something unique like legendary armor which would be better in open world for a larger audience or overtune the quantity of rewars which will destroy the economy even further.

>

> 1. Again, we don't know how much time this would take to implement, or where that time would come from. I recognize that this is *potentially* an issue, but also *potentially* not, we can't know for sure. ANet does, so let's leave this one up to them.

> 2. True, but they spent the time to make raids in the first place, so it stands to reason they can spend the time to tweak them to be a bit easier too.

> 3. Just because someone hasn't completed dungeons doesn't mean they wouldn't participate in raids, and even so, the gap between "the 50% that have (according to some flawed data) "never played dungeons" and the less than 25% who "raid regularly" is *still* equal to (or more likely much higher than) the number of people who raid *at all,* I think it would be worth doing, right? Given that it would take less work than making the raids in the first place, I would think that even if *fewer* people would be interested in easy raids than currently raid, it would still be a justifiable expense.

> 4. The easy mode would be just as replayable as the hard, and would take longer to clean out, so if "replayability" is something you're worried about, easy mode raids would offer equal to or greater "replayability value" to the game.

>

> The theory that I *think* you're operating under would only work if *every* player would *inevitably* reach *every* reward, like if it was a progression system where A leads to B leads to C and so long as you keep playing you'll eventually reach Z. Keep in mind that in terms of replayability, a reward that people are not chasing is not a valuable reward to their demographic. If less than 25% of the population raids, then the raid rewards have ZERO playability value to 75% of the game's population. By providing a path that is more tempting to the majority of the players, it makes it more likely that players will *bother* chasing after it, *raising,* not lowering, the overall replayability value.

>

1. The time doesn't matter at all. It still takes ressources and they are already really thin spread right now. All sides complain the content production is too slow and your solution to that is slowing down content. Nice one.

2. They could also spend the time to make a second instance for all open world maps in a harder difficulty. Just because they could do it doesn't mean that it actually benefits the game or improves the current situation.

3. Players that never played instanced content will never play raids. They won't magically like instances because you want them to. Slowing down content for a minority is never worth it.

4. No they won't. Many people raid since the introdution of raids and have all rewards and still play them because they are fun. Won't happen with the easy mode. Once the rewards are gone the population is also gone unless you overtune the quantity of rewards. Just look at low level fractals.

 

Many players replay raids by choice, not by force for rewards.

Also keep in mind that ArenaNet is happy with the current raid population. An easy mode will actually lower the replay value of raids in generell if you only play for rewards.

 

Replaying content by choice is more worth than replaying by force. You design content to be replayed be force.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Voltekka.2375" said:

> Easy content takes longer to clear? Really? Oh man.

 

Volteka, *please* read my previous response to you. I laid out the reason why I believe that they could make the easy mode so that yes, it *would* be longer to clear, because the enemy would have equal or potentially higher HP, *And* given that you would get substantially less rewards per clear, it would take considerably longer to "clear out the shop" than if you were playing the normal mode version.

 

This is not a difficult concept to understand, so I will do you the courtesy of assuming that you are deliberately ignoring it instead.

 

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> 1. The time doesn't matter at all. It still takes ressources and they are already really thin spread right now. All sides complain the content production is too slow and your solution to that is slowing down content. Nice one.

> 2. They could also spend the time to make a second instance for all open world maps in a harder difficulty. Just because they could do it doesn't mean that it actually benefits the game or improves the current situation.

> 3. Players that never played instanced content will never play raids. They won't magically like instances because you want them to. Slowing down content for a minority is never worth it.

> 4. No they won't. Many people raid since the introdution of raids and have all rewards and still play them because they are fun. Won't happen with the easy mode. Once the rewards are gone the population is also gone unless you overtune the quantity of rewards. Just look at low level fractals.

 

1. **AGAIN,** we do not know how much time it would take or where that time would come from. Do I think it should slow the next Raid Wing by several months? *No.* Do I think it should slow the next LS release by several months? *No.* Do I think it would necessarily *have to* do either of these things? *Definitely not.* It might, but that's for ANet to work out on their end, since they know who is working on what and how they could best allocate their resources.

2. They could do that, but I don't think it would be worth the time and effort involved. I do believe that easy mode raids would justify the time and effort involved.

3. Again, just because someone didn't do dungeons doesn't mean that they wouldn't do raids. We'd been over this earlier in one of these threads and there's no point retreading it. **Even if you are right on that point,** the number of "people who *have* done dungeons but don't raid" is **still** larger than the total raiding population, so pulling from *just* that group could double the total number of players enjoying raid content. How would that not be worth it?

4. Sure, once players accumulate the raid rewards they want (which, I'll remind you, would take roughly three times **longer** in easy mode), they might move on to other things. But some of them would enjoy the raids just as much as the current players, and might stick with it. And since the barrier of entry is lower, you'd have a lot more players dabbling in it, more new players coming into it every day as they get bored with whatever else they were doing or just entered the game, so I believe that the player populations would stay at least as healthy as the current raids, if not moreso.

 

>Many players replay raids by choice, not by force for rewards.

 

Agree, which is why they don't need reward exclusivity acting as a "bribe" to play.

 

>Also keep in mind that ArenaNet is happy with the current raid population.

 

That doesn't mean it couldn't be better still, or that making it better would not be a positive allocation of resources.

 

>An easy mode will actually lower the replay value of raids in generell if you only play for rewards.

 

You'll have to explain how you get here. Right now, players have one option for earning the rewards, play the current raids. I've heard a lot of opinions on how long this might take, but let's just throw a number out there, let's say it takes 200 hours to "clean out the shop" on raid rewards, to get all of the possible things. It might take longer if you only want some of the things. Ok, that's our benchmark. Now if they add an easy mode to the specs I'm talking about, it would take you **600** hours, possibly more, to achieve those same results. How is that *less* replay value?

 

And that's not even factoring in that 1. the weekly lockouts mean that not only would it take, three times as many weeks start to finish (assuming an equal number of clears per week), but also 2. that if a player is not raiding right now, the raid rewards offer ZERO replayability value to him, because he is never progressing towards them, whereas if an easy mode were added, they would instantly become a source of replayability value to those players, *iwhtout* in any way diminishing the replayability value to existing raiders.

 

I just do not understand what you are missing that you think this would somehow "reduce" the replayability value of the content.

 

>Replaying content by choice is more worth than replaying by force. You design content to be replayed be force.

 

The current content forces people to replay it if they want the rewards. This is opening that up a bit, a problem for which you'd offered no better solutions.

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> In which part of my statement? The one where is said that intentions can change? That one already happened many times in this game already, for multitude of reasons. That includes exclusivity... Anet has been known to change their mind on that one as well (and not only with dungeon skins).

 

1) If you are referring to 'Dungeon Skins' being made available in other modes like PvP and WvW, PvP already had a system in it's original incarnation where skins were a hybrid prestige / RNG based reward, meaning Dungeon Skins were definitely on the table for being made available elsewhere in the game.

2) If you want a sheer list of examples from everything like some of the original Arah maps, to HoT, to PoF to any of the Living World Maps where there are still exclusive skins in PvE only available from those areas, I can proceed to provide you a rather lengthy list.

 

You can scream and yell all you want "Arenanet has changed their minds before therefore Exclusive items being made available elsewhere is still on the table, I'm therefore correct in assuming this is something that HAS to happen with raids" isn't something you can argue since the main crux of other changes to modes where rewards were involved, were in an attempt to help mesh out those modes. Ironically, while doing so they would add ONTO the exclusive rewards of that particular mode, see Fractal Weapons - Golden Fractal Weapons.

 

So no, they won't.

 

> That the assigning rewards to content is arbitrary? It's Anet that decides which rewards go where, and which content gets more/less. It's also Anet that decides which rewards are exclusive, which are less exclusive, and which are generic. They could decide tomorrow to switch those around, and it would be equally right/wrong as it is now. Basically, what is intended for what content, and what is exclusive is a completely arbitrary decision. Are you seriously even trying to argue against that one?

 

I am, because Arenanet understands how basic reward systems in MMOs work. I'm surprised you are even trying to argue the opposite where it would somehow be beneficial for the company to give out the same rewards for a task utterly unrelated. A lot of players would be upset if any of their exclusive rewards they spent weeks / months working on, were suddenly being sold on the TP.

 

The mere fact that Arenanet made the decision to have the second series of Legendaries not be TPable is related to their thought process on rewards, they want players to EARN them doing specific tasks, not ANY tasks. It's another way you get players to play particular content. **"If Rewards are why players play a particular content then that means the content isn't good on it's own."** No, it means that Arenanet knows how to properly reward a player for going into say any Living Story Map and dedicating themselves to upgrade that unique backpiece tied to that region.

 

Exclusive Rewards help with retention.

 

> The reward being fair is only you subjective assesment. It's been already established that it is assigned to content on arbitrary basis that _can_ change. And you are demanding that those rewards _won't_ be made available elsewhere, which, as i see it, is a far more selfish approach. You are the one not wanting to share even when it would cost you nothing.

 

Nope, it's an assessment made by in-game observation. You demanding that the reward be made elsewhere is **taking away from anyone who put in the effort to earn that reward in the first place.** Go back to the original Fractal Weapons, extremely difficult RNG drop at a highest level. After the fractal rework they drop like candy and can be earned fairly quickly, there was a outcry in forum posts and reddit from some very upset Fractal Weapon owners that their hard work was trivialized. **Suddenly making exclusive rewards non-exclusive isn't sharing and isn't being greedy, you are stealing that reward from them.**

 

You can keep up the false premise that we are somehow 'greedy' for wanting to keep exclusive rewards, especially high-end ones like Envoy or Triumphant or whatever, in certain key major parts of this game only. That's incorrect, as soon as content drops with a reward of an **objectively difficulty to obtain requirements** like time, skill or effort, the exclusive reward is that much more rewarding for players who actually earned the right to use it, and becomes something that shouldn't be just given out like candy.

[DavidBG.6194]

What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

>1) If you are referring to 'Dungeon Skins' being made available in other modes like PvP and WvW, PvP already had a system in it's original incarnation where skins were a hybrid prestige / RNG based reward, meaning Dungeon Skins were definitely on the table for being made available elsewhere in the game.

 

This is true, but also untrue. The reason is, in the original implementation, yes, you could earn things like dungeon armors in PvP, **but** you would only *use* these armors *within* PvP. They could not be used by any of your characters in the PvE content. So you weren't *really* "earning them" in a way that was competing with the original mechanics.

 

I actually really LOVED this aspect, and hated when they changed it, because it meant that people who liked to PvP could progress in PvP, without impacting players in PvE, and vice-versa. They had no need to "balance" the two because they were 100% distinct systems, and players who never wanted to PvP had no reason to ever do so, because nothing they earned could be brought back to the game they actually cared about.

 

If raids operated this way, with Envoy armor only being usable *within* the raid itself, then the rewards would be less of an issue, because they would indeed be completely irrelevant to non-raiders. But since they are something that, once earned, you can use anywhere, it becomes impossible to say "well, if you don't want to raid, then those are just not for you."

 

>A lot of players would be upset if any of their exclusive rewards they spent weeks / months working on, were suddenly being sold on the TP.

 

Again, **it happens.** That's just life. Things that were once available one way, and took a long time to accumulate, at some point, that "price" might change, and it's suddenly much cheaper. That's no reason to *never lower the price on anything.* I mean, I've been playing this one mobile game for a while now, and at first, you'd have to grind for months to get a character to level 50. Then they raised the cap to level 60, and it took weeks more to get them to that cap, and you wanted to do this across dozens of characters, and by this point, they just raised the cap to 70, but over the time since, you can raise a character from 0-60 almost instantly with stockpiles resources, or "earn" the way 0-60 in a week or so if you grind to it, and characters that took months to unlock the ability to level them to 60, you can now unlock in a couple weeks of clearing some of the events, or the devs just give away copies of that character to everyone.

 

Things get devalued over time.

 

Nobody has a right to complain about this, especially when it means that more people are happy to have the thing.

 

>Suddenly making exclusive rewards non-exclusive isn't sharing and isn't being greedy, you are stealing that reward from them.

 

No. Those players are being greedy by trying to gatekeep who else is allowed to have them. They should be happy that *they* had them, and for the time they already spent having them that those other players did not have. I've been accused of a great many things by people in these threads, of being "spoiled" or "entitled," or "greedy," using various other terms, but whatever I may be, none of it could be more "spoiled" or "entitled," or "greedy" than people who are upset that other people can be happy having things easier.

[nia.4725]

> @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

 

Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

 

Just, dude. Be realistic.

[DavidBG.6194]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> > What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

>

> Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

>

> Just, dude. Be realistic.

 

Bruh, didn't say wow it's so easy!! but my point is THE TOOLS are there, you need to put your head out, join some discords, join some discussions and try to find there. If you cry about not managing to do anything on LFG well.. what do you really expect.

[Ayra Lightbringer.2874]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> > What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

>

> Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

>

> Just, dude. Be realistic.

 

It is indeed easy to find a group as a beginner. Just open the LFG and you will find groups of different experience levels looking for players on a daily basis. Also, there are several large raid trainings groups, like Crossroads Inn, Raid für Alle or the Raid Training Initiative. Do you get a free carry? No. You will have to work for your kill, but you do get a teacher that explains the mechanics and a group dedicated to kill that boss. And if even that should be too much effort for you, just stick with the super-easy content.

 

I think few people on EU are native English speakers, however in modern Europe every reasonably educated person speaks English on a somewhat decent level, which is all it takes to converse about raiding. And if you really don't speak English, there are raiding guilds for any language, ranging from German to Finnish.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> > What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

>

> Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

>

> Just, dude. Be realistic.

 

Statics are bit far fetches but actually raid training Discords are an easy way of getting into raiding and something I can recommend for everyone. At least people in Raiders In Training are patient, get the job done and have experienced trainers.

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> This is true, but also untrue. The reason is, in the original implementation, yes, you could earn things like dungeon armors in PvP, **but** you would only *use* these armors *within* PvP. They could not be used by any of your characters in the PvE content. So you weren't *really* "earning them" in a way that was competing with the original mechanics.

>

> I actually really LOVED this aspect, and hated when they changed it, because it meant that people who liked to PvP could progress in PvP, without impacting players in PvE, and vice-versa. They had no need to "balance" the two because they were 100% distinct systems, and players who never wanted to PvP had no reason to ever do so, because nothing they earned could be brought back to the game they actually cared about.

>

 

The main issue with the system is that there was a major disconnect between PvEers who couldn't bring their skins into PvP and vice versa, the implementation split the modes a bit more than they expected. WvW didn't have the same disconnect, PvP felt like the only game mode they messed up rewards for.

 

> If raids operated this way, with Envoy armor only being usable *within* the raid itself, then the rewards would be less of an issue, because they would indeed be completely irrelevant to non-raiders. But since they are something that, once earned, you can use anywhere, it becomes impossible to say "well, if you don't want to raid, then those are just not for you."

 

Going to turn this on you, why **do you care what raiders take out of the raid rewards in the open world?** I can't fathom your mentality, you would be OK with the armor being only, I presume, visible within raids, but once it is able to be shown off outside that's where you start making these demands about normalizing all loot to everywhere?

 

If that's not greed I'm not sure what it is.

 

> Again, **it happens.** That's just life.

 

Uh no. No that's not how life works, you are living in an alternate reality, people who earn trophies don't suddenly have duplicate legitimate trophies suddenly sold down the street. **You can stop pretending you have any idea how rewards are supposed to work now, or how life ACTUALLY works.** Real NFL rings aren't gifted out to high school freshmen, I'm not capable of paying a lot of cash to buy the Stanley Cup, if I'm cleaning dishes I do NOT get to demand rightfully that I deserve a six-digit salary without being laughed out of the building.

 

Everything you said here is a load of kitten.

 

> No. Those players are being greedy by trying to gatekeep who else is allowed to have them.

 

You are deluding yourself. You keep implying that you aren't being selfish, greedy and wanting of things that you clearly don't want to earn. You continue to insist with your toxic mentality that there shouldn't be **exclusive** rewards in GW2 because you want literally everything handed to you at any juncture as long as you can put some semblance of what you consider 'effort' to achieve.

 

**YOU** want to be the one that decides how hard certain items should be to obtain, and **YOU** consistently, inaccurately and deceitfully try to assume what you want is what EVERYONE wants. You are the 'Elitist Casual' whose demand all mentality to the lowest common denominator, can only hurt this game's performance. Exclusivity is mandatory in gaming, rewards and life in general.

[nia.4725]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> > > What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

> >

> > Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

> >

> > Just, dude. Be realistic.

>

> Statics are bit far fetches but actually raid training Discords are an easy way of getting into raiding and something I can recommend for everyone. At least people in Raiders In Training are patient, get the job done and have experienced trainers.

 

Yep, guilds are the best option to get started in raids. But that person's speech is just not realistic. "Please just join a static"? As if it's that easy. Most statics require some degree of experience, if you're new it's difficult to find one. Also, with this guild thing, if you aren't comfortable with English you can struggle getting a guild. Sure, there are a lot of training guilds, but they are primarily English guilds and not everyone is capable of understanding and/or speaking that language.

 

Yeah, as that nice person said already, almost everyone is able to speak and understand basic english... Yeah, well, maybe almost everyone young person. Here in Spain I see some middle aged players who just haven't received English lessons, and (honestly) the level of English language of the spanish population is quite bad (English at school is horrible, too) so here you'll see a lot of young people who just can't communicate in basic English. It's sad, but it's the truth. The game does not revolve around English, either.

 

What I mean with this is that this (getting a static and a guild) isn't as easy as some people want to make it seem.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"nia.4725" said:

> > @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> > > @"nia.4725" said:

> > > > @"DavidBG.6194" said:

> > > > What actually is pissing me off, is that people complain how hard it is to make a group when in reality you make it harder on yourself by going on the freaking LFG. SC post discord for training guild, there are guilds posting on LFG from time to time TAOD, tEC, RTI(if still alive). Please just join a static, where people can have a discussion on when is best time for them to do this stuff and do it with them. When you struggle to make LFG squad work, it's mainly because people on LFG are impatient and annoying sometimes to deal with because all they do is LFG and because of lacking squad leadership that falls into pressure when people complain. If you want to make it easier, stop pugging every boss training and or raid.

> > >

> > > Yes, because it is so easy to just join a static! Yeah, it's super easy to find a static when you don't know any raider, when you're a newbie. Super easy. And if you don't find a static, create it yourself! Who cares if you don't know anything about commanding, managing a raid static or even just raid bosses? Because also, it will NEVER be a problem to find a static if you aren't a primarily-English speaker! If you're spanish, or french, or italian, just join an English speak guild and static!

> > >

> > > Just, dude. Be realistic.

> >

> > Statics are bit far fetches but actually raid training Discords are an easy way of getting into raiding and something I can recommend for everyone. At least people in Raiders In Training are patient, get the job done and have experienced trainers.

>

> Yep, guilds are the best option to get started in raids. But that person's speech is just not realistic. "Please just join a static"? As if it's that easy. Most statics require some degree of experience, if you're new it's difficult to find one. Also, with this guild thing, if you aren't comfortable with English you can struggle getting a guild. Sure, there are a lot of training guilds, but they are primarily English guilds and not everyone is capable of understanding and/or speaking that language.

>

> Yeah, as that nice person said already, almost everyone is able to speak and understand basic english... Yeah, well, maybe almost everyone young person. Here in Spain I see some middle aged players who just haven't received English lessons, and (honestly) the level of English language of the spanish population is quite bad (English at school is horrible, too) so here you'll see a lot of young people who just can't communicate in basic English. It's sad, but it's the truth. The game does not revolve around English, either.

>

> What I mean with this is that this (getting a static and a guild) isn't as easy as some people want to make it seem.

 

Oh, raid training Discords are not guilds, for example Raiders in Training is just a Discord group that organizes training runs throughout the day every day for various encounters and they have guides and stuff. Sure it wont work for people who dont speak English though, but this is an NA training Discord server. Im not sure how the EU one handles things.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

> Going to turn this on you, why do you care what raiders take out of the raid rewards in the open world?

 

It's not so much that, it's that it opens the possibility that *I* could take the reward out with me. You see? If the raid rewards were something that could never be used in the rest of the game, then it could be entirely off my radar. Why claim a reward I'd never have a use for? But if the option exists to use it outside of raids, then it annoys me that I have absolutely no interest in clearing the associated content (at their current level of hassle). It was the same with the Ascension. If it was something that could only be used in the Mists, I never would have bothered, but because I could wear it outside of PvP, I went in after it, and hated every minute of the process.

 

>Uh no. No that's not how life works, you are living in an alternate reality, people who earn trophies don't suddenly have duplicate legitimate trophies suddenly sold down the street. You can stop pretending you have any idea how rewards are supposed to work now, or how life ACTUALLY works. Real NFL rings aren't gifted out to high school freshmen, I'm not capable of paying a lot of cash to buy the Stanley Cup, if I'm cleaning dishes I do NOT get to demand rightfully that I deserve a six-digit salary without being laughed out of the building.

 

Again, *we are not talking about trophies here.* We are talking about an item you earned for putting work in. Like say you wanted a new car. You worked hard for that car, you worked 9-5 for years, a decent chunk of that effort going into paying for that car. And so you got the car, and enjoyed the car, but a year or two later, someone else could get that same car for half the price you paid. That's just how life works.

 

>You are deluding yourself. You keep implying that you aren't being selfish, greedy and wanting of things that you clearly don't want to earn.

 

Again, **I am entirely willing to earn everything I want here.** I just want to do it in a mode that *I* enjoy as much as *you* enjoy the raids as they currently exist. Nothing more than that. Is that a self-interested desire? Sure. But it's *less* self-interested than someone who already *has* the armor (or is on the path to it) and wants to keep it *away* from other players who wouldn't enjoy the same path.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> Oh, raid training Discords are not guilds, for example Raiders in Training is just a Discord group that organizes training runs throughout the day every day for various encounters and they have guides and stuff. Sure it wont work for people who dont speak English though, but this is an NA training Discord server. Im not sure how the EU one handles things.

Generally, you need to know english. I've seen some german LFGs occasionally, but they are rare. I have _never_ seen a french or spanish lfg, and i know there's quite a number of players from french and spanish servers that simply do not speak english. If you are one of those players, you either get some friends to raid with you, or you're out of luck.

 

 

[Xantaria.8726]

...is this discussion still going on? Oh my... i read some comments above and its just like when i stopped following the discussion.

I will throw my opinion in here again though:

-i think we all can agree that a easy mode and a hard mode for raids themself wouldnt harm anyone as long as the reward is balanced and goes higher if you go a difficulty up (like fractals)

-this maybe would incourage a fractalsimiliar design in which players who kill the hard mode also get the weeklyloot of nm and em

-the most important thing people should consider is if its worth it and has anet the recourses to do it, which i believe shouldnt be disgusted since no matter what anyone says, the only ones who can answer that is anet, so any discussion in this direction is an endless cycle

-if ppl have trouble finding a group, i can only recommand to search for trainings discords. Those are often listed in the raidlfg, on reddit or here and wont require to join a guild in most cases

 

[Sykper.6583]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> It's not so much that, it's that it opens the possibility that *I* could take the reward out with me. You see? If the raid rewards were something that could never be used in the rest of the game, then it could be entirely off my radar. Why claim a reward I'd never have a use for? But if the option exists to use it outside of raids, then it annoys me that I have absolutely no interest in clearing the associated content (at their current level of hassle). It was the same with the Ascension. If it was something that could only be used in the Mists, I never would have bothered, but because I could wear it outside of PvP, I went in after it, and hated every minute of the process.

>

 

So Jealousy? You think it's fair to the rest of us that your own subjective experience of the content for a reward you clearly want, that you should just HAVE it and not earn it justly like the rest of us? Like any normal real life instance of earning a reward?

 

Sorry but to us your own words, "That's just life."

 

> >Uh no. No that's not how life works, you are living in an alternate reality, people who earn trophies don't suddenly have duplicate legitimate trophies suddenly sold down the street. You can stop pretending you have any idea how rewards are supposed to work now, or how life ACTUALLY works. Real NFL rings aren't gifted out to high school freshmen, I'm not capable of paying a lot of cash to buy the Stanley Cup, if I'm cleaning dishes I do NOT get to demand rightfully that I deserve a six-digit salary without being laughed out of the building.

>

> Again, *we are not talking about trophies here.* We are talking about an item you earned for putting work in. Like say you wanted a new car. You worked hard for that car, you worked 9-5 for years, a decent chunk of that effort going into paying for that car. And so you got the car, and enjoyed the car, but a year or two later, someone else could get that same car for half the price you paid. That's just how life works.

 

First that's a terrible analogy considering how deprecation works with cars (and models / years).

 

Second, and while you and I inevitably have disagreed on this point, exclusive rewards **are a trophy** you earned from completing the content. I already know you disagree with this point all together, but reality and GW2 itself are at odds with your view on this.

 

>

> >You are deluding yourself. You keep implying that you aren't being selfish, greedy and wanting of things that you clearly don't want to earn.

>

> Again, **I am entirely willing to earn everything I want here.** I just want to do it in a mode that *I* enjoy as much as *you* enjoy the raids as they currently exist.

 

Do you even have an editor for yourself? You are 'Willing to earn everything I want' yet promptly say 'I just want to do it in a mode I enjoy'?

 

I believe you proved my point about how selfish you are. **The defense rests.**

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Sykper.6583" said:

>So Jealousy?

 

No, again, *not* jealousy. Geeze, why do you always have to leap to the most negative impulses? No, the point is, it's about whether or not *I* have a use for it. If it's something that only has value in a mode I have no interest in playing, then it has no value to me. If it does have value to the modes I enjoy though (ie, I can wear the skin while in them) then it does have value. Other players are entirely irrelevant to this.

 

>You think it's fair to the rest of us that your own subjective experience of the content for a reward you clearly want, that you should just HAVE it and not earn it justly like the rest of us? Like any normal real life instance of earning a reward?

 

Again, as I've said over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again, I have no interest in the items just being handed to me, I fully intend to earn them, all I'm asking for is the *option* to earn them in a gameplay mode that **I** would enjoy as much as raiders enjoy raiding. No more than that.

 

and of course that's a fair ask, you're just lucky that the developers arbitrarily chose to assign the rewards to a gameplay mode that you already wanted to play. I was not so fortunate.

 

>Second, and while you and I inevitably have disagreed on this point, exclusive rewards are a trophy you earned from completing the content. I already know you disagree with this point all together, but reality and GW2 itself are at odds with your view on this.

 

Then why would you bring it up, knowing what my response would be?

 

>Do you even have an editor for yourself? You are 'Willing to earn everything I want' yet promptly say 'I just want to do it in a mode I enjoy'?

 

The two are in no way mutually exclusive statements. If you want a new PS4, maybe you can work in an office for about 20 hours or so, OR maybe you can work at a fast food place for closer to 40. The choice is yours. They require different skillsets, different degrees of physical labor, etc., but at the end of the day, you can still reach that item you wanted whichever path you take. All I'm asking for is additional paths, but once those paths are available, I fully intend to work as hard as any raider to pursue that path.