Please Overhaul Raids.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > >Can't believe I am actually quoting the manifesto to prove my point. Which part of it says that the game is specifically designed for those who refuse to group with others?

> > >

> > > None of it. Now, which part of that *contradicts* what I just said? The "manifesto" is not the point, the point is the game they *delivered* and maintained up through the launch of HoT.

> >

> > Your personal perception of the game they delivered and which supposedly ended when HoT launched.

>

> And?

>

 

Nothing. It is your opinion but that is all there is to it. We can agree on that much at least. Was simply wondering as you certainly do act as if it is more than just that.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > >Can't believe I am actually quoting the manifesto to prove my point. Which part of it says that the game is specifically designed for those who refuse to group with others?

> > > >

> > > > None of it. Now, which part of that *contradicts* what I just said? The "manifesto" is not the point, the point is the game they *delivered* and maintained up through the launch of HoT.

> > >

> > > Your personal perception of the game they delivered and which supposedly ended when HoT launched.

> >

> > And?

> >

>

> Nothing. It is your opinion but that is all there is to it. We can agree on that much at least. Was simply wondering as you certainly do act as if it is more than just that.

 

*Everybody's* position about what's best for the game is their personal opinion. *One* of them is right.

[Henry.5713]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > > >Can't believe I am actually quoting the manifesto to prove my point. Which part of it says that the game is specifically designed for those who refuse to group with others?

> > > > >

> > > > > None of it. Now, which part of that *contradicts* what I just said? The "manifesto" is not the point, the point is the game they *delivered* and maintained up through the launch of HoT.

> > > >

> > > > Your personal perception of the game they delivered and which supposedly ended when HoT launched.

> > >

> > > And?

> > >

> >

> > Nothing. It is your opinion but that is all there is to it. We can agree on that much at least. Was simply wondering as you certainly do act as if it is more than just that.

>

> *Everybody's* position about what's best for the game is their personal opinion. *One* of them is right.

 

We can agree to disagree on about which *one* of them is right. Anything other than that seems to be a complete waste of time with you.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > > > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > > > > > @"Henry.5713" said:

> > > > > > >Can't believe I am actually quoting the manifesto to prove my point. Which part of it says that the game is specifically designed for those who refuse to group with others?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > None of it. Now, which part of that *contradicts* what I just said? The "manifesto" is not the point, the point is the game they *delivered* and maintained up through the launch of HoT.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your personal perception of the game they delivered and which supposedly ended when HoT launched.

> > > >

> > > > And?

> > > >

> > >

> > > Nothing. It is your opinion but that is all there is to it. We can agree on that much at least. Was simply wondering as you certainly do act as if it is more than just that.

> >

> > *Everybody's* position about what's best for the game is their personal opinion. *One* of them is right.

>

> We can agree to disagree on about which *one* of them is right. Anything other than that seems to be a complete waste of time with you.

 

Ok.

[Turin.6921]

I find it astounding that people feel left out because in a big game like GW2 with various game modes for various skills and time investment there are modes that do not fit on their playstyle.

 

None is forcing you to play raids and you are not entitled to the rewards of a mode that you do not want to play. I mostly do PvE and i do not PvP almost at all. I do not have the time to invest on PvP as well. And its end-game rewards are out of reach to me. But you know what? Its ok.

 

I am pretty happy to focus on the game mode that I actually enjoy more and get its rewards without feeling left our cause i do not want to invest on the other modes. I do not feel entitled to the rewards of modes i do not play and i would never ask for a change on a mode to accommodate my needs when it might affect the people that already enjoy it. Nothing is forcing you to play other game modes if these modes do not stick well with your style and schedule. Any enforcement you are feeling on the matter is self-inflicted. All modes have prestigious and unique rewards and more are added with every patch.

 

Imagine if i would request for sPvP to add bot opponents cause i want the rewards without having to invest the time to become skillful enough to compete with other players in a PvP mode? Asking for easier raids to get rewards because you feel left out by not being able to invest the time to increase your skill for it is equally problematic.

 

Whenever i see a person with end game gear from PvP i am just happy for them. I enjoy seeing accomplished people even on thing i do not play. It takes for a very specific kind of person to see people with rewards from other modes and instead of thinking "thats cool" is actually thinking "Man i really want to have that but i do not want to put the effort he/she did. I need to convince Anet to change the mode for me".

 

And for the actual matter that the OP is talking about. I would like to see some more streamlining on the Raid LFG. But an LFR feature similar to WoW or FF would not work. The classes have much less defined roles and many can do multiple. Comps can change and roles and class specializations change with every balance patch and expansion. You cannot have an auto-join feature that can work with such a flexible balance between classes. In other games it works since classes are directly linked to the standard roles. Trying to implement that feature here is really convoluted, complex and would require constant update.

Also i prefer for game to encourage you to at least have some interaction with other players, even if very basic. An auto-join feature you remove that.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

 

And then it's a clown fiesta most of the time. Bad comp, bad builds, people downing, fights taking forever to finish. With all honesty, when I want a smooth clear, my lfg experience is just the same as for raids - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc. It's not at all a coincidence that all cm groups look exactly like this. It simply matters. It's perfectly fine to not like and participate in it, too. The game is big, it's not mandatory to participate in *all* of it. Some people don't raid, some people don't pve at all, some people don't do JPs. To each their own. How hard is it to grasp this simple concept?

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Ok, lets give acces to legendary armor to everyone. How do you plan to reward raiders then. Because if you lock something behind specific content it becomes a reward.

 

Everyone can have diferent oppinion and i respect that. I view life as a game. Rules are set and you play. I dont think everyone expect to get degree from kindergarden.

 

If you take away rewards for specific content and replace them with one (gold) then either you gate same gold per hour everywhere and then there is no point playing harder conten since you can get stuff you want easier way or you give higher rewards for harder content and this discusion will remain the same. This will be same problem as with fractals. Many players complain that new fractals are too hard and that they need hour to complete but dont want to do t3 because it is less rewarded.

 

Also I respect others and if they dont want to improve i will not waste my and their time.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> I find it astounding that people feel left out because in a big game like GW2 with various game modes for various skills and time investment there are modes that do not fit on their playstyle.

>

> None is forcing you to play raids and you are not entitled to the rewards of a mode that you do not want to play. I mostly do PvE and i do not PvP almost at all. I do not have the time to invest on PvP as well. And its end-game rewards are out of reach to me. But you know what? Its ok.

>

> I am pretty happy to focus on the game mode that I actually enjoy more and get its rewards without feeling left our cause i do not want to invest on the other modes. I do not feel entitled to the rewards of modes i do not play and i would never ask for a change on a mode to accommodate my needs when it might affect the people that already enjoy it. Nothing is forcing you to play other game modes if these modes do not stick well with your style and schedule. Any enforcement you are feeling on the matter is self-inflicted. All modes have prestigious and unique rewards and more are added with every patch.

>

> Imagine if i would request for sPvP to add bot opponents cause i want the rewards without having to invest the time to become skillful enough to compete with other players in a PvP mode? Asking for easier raids to get rewards because you feel left out by not being able to invest the time to increase your skill for it is equally problematic.

>

> Whenever i see a person with end game gear from PvP i am just happy for them. I enjoy seeing accomplished people even on thing i do not play. It takes for a very specific kind of person to see people with rewards from other modes and instead of thinking "thats cool" is actually thinking "Man i really want to have that but i do not want to put the effort he/she did. I need to convince Anet to change the mode for me".

>

> And for the actual matter that the OP is talking about. I would like to see some more streamlining on the Raid LFG. But an LFR feature similar to WoW or FF would not work. The classes have much less defined roles and many can do multiple. Comps can change and roles and class specializations change with every balance patch and expansion. You cannot have an auto-join feature that can work with such a flexible balance between classes. In other games it works since classes are directly linked to the standard roles. Trying to implement that feature here is really convoluted, complex and would require constant update.

> Also i prefer for game to encourage you to at least have some interaction with other players, even if very basic. An auto-join feature you remove that.

 

Exactly this. Thanks for your time you invested here

[intox.6347]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"intox.6347" said:

> > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

 

> when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

 

But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

 

I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

>

> > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

>

> But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

>

> I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

>

 

It is doable without specific composition. Teapot kolled something as 10 healers. You can do it but players ask for specific composition so its FASTER and even easier.

 

I can do t4 fractals without any comp but with meta comp it takes half the time. Normaly i finish T4 dailies in 30 minutes. Last weekend i join nonmeta group and we finished urban battlegroun in 20 minutes.

[Turin.6921]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

>

Citation needed.

 

Also you are missing other aspects of raids on your analysis. It might only be a generally small part of the community playing but:

- the team building raids is also very small compared to the general dev team.

- Mechanics tested in raids find themselves ( in a nerfed fashion) in open world very often. Thus open world exploits some of the experience and tech needed to make harder content.

- Highly skilled raiders doing benchmarks help the balance team by informing them on the class limits and even helps inform casual PvE players on builds and class characteristics.

- The small percentage of people playing also tend to be very dedicated and often paying customers.

- Raids give good twitch viewership to the game that is very valuable exposure plus it is actually exiting to watch and easy to follow even if you are not experienced on the mode.

 

I would call raids quite a successful mode taking into account that it is developed by a single 8-10 people team of a total of 400 (which some are also responsible for fractals as well BTW).

 

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

>

> > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

>

> But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

>

> I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

 

Well cause you cant just get in with any classes or especs with 0 group-synergie^^. If you go in with 0 boons on everyone, everyone playing with wvw gear or any tanky gear stats when they are not the tank and then play with especs or weapons/skills which are better suited for condi or power stats, yet they play the opposite, then of course your group will have a hard time since they will if they not fail on the mechanics then they will fail cause they hit the enragetimer. Thats why some groupsetup that at least covers the most important boons, has 1-2 healers and 1 tank and some decent cc potential is what you should bring if you want to raid. Which class provides those things doesnt matter actual, the most commen setup is 2 chronos+1-2 druid with one of the chronos being the tank.

 

The problem here is that many ratter prefere a common setup, since you have higher chances to find players if everyone is geared for the same setup. Thats actual the only way pugs works currently, since other comps work too, but are mostly only played in statics since not many trusts other comps. This is the biggest problem in my opinion.

 

Another thing, pls stop saying only a majority do raids/can do raids. Noone knows exactly how many actual does and which doesnt. All i can say is that each day the raid lfg is very active. But a specific amount cant be said, since:

-not all players join the discussion about this topic

-i believe not even half of the community is actual active in the forum

 

so unless anet starts a email-poll on that matter with a % of players who took part of it, noone actual knows the actual number, so pls stop selling that matter as facts ;).

 

 

[intox.6347]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"intox.6347" said:

> > that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

> >

> Citation needed.

>

> Also you are missing other aspects of raids on your analysis. It might only be a generally small part of the community needed but:

> - the team building raids is also very small compared to the general dev team.

> - Mechanics tested in raids find themselves ( in a nerfed fashion) in open world very often. Thus open world exploits some of the experience and tech needed to make harder content.

Open world dont need copy of raid mechanics, they can have own, and they had them... now they just focus on raid, so they just ctrl+c ctrl+v into open.

> - Highly skilled raiders doing benchmarks help the balance team by informing them on the class limits and even helps inform casual PvE players on builds and class characteristics.

That is here from start... on dungeons, fractals. Benchmarks from raid helps people to raid, thats not contribution to whole gw2 community,it only makes more modes toxic. Yeah you can see that staff weaver can have biggest numbers to static big target, but thats is same for 5 years.

> - The small percentage of people playing also tend to be very dedicated and often paying customers.

Thats not how bussines works... these ppl play a lot and farm a lot... they can buy stuff via gold. Newcomers making money, they dont have gold, buy stuff via real currency. You can see that how fast they put on table new outfits, gem weapon, exclusive blc items, mounts .... but still not finished promised HoT leges ..

> - Raids give good twitch viewership to the game that is very valuable exposure plus it is actually exiting to watch and easy to follow even if you are not experienced on the mode.

That numbers are not good viewership :D

>

> I would call raids quite a successful mode taking into account that it is developed by a single 8-10 people team of a total of 400 (which some are also responsible for fractals as well BTW).

Where normal person can find how much ppl is deticated to each mode / thing, coz if they can make in 10 ppl lot of content, there will for sure different number of ppl on other things... for example cant think that 10 ppl works on pvp... in state in which is now.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

>

> > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

>

> But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

>

> I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

>

 

Asking for a proper comp is just to avoid the already mentioned clown fiesta. Look. I've walked that path. I used to pug t4 with random comps. It's doable, it's still not really hard, but it tends to get annoying. Why would I subject myself to that when I can avoid it?

 

As for the raids. I started from a similar position. Poked my guildies for two weeks until we finally agreed to try it. Pugged some people to fill the team, went off and kept failing. Then we repeated the process on the next weekend and we eventually got the kill. In the end we didn't really continue, as not everyone was really excited about it. Like I said, to each their own. So I looked for a training guild, joined one, and kept failing. See the pattern here? It's personal involvement. You can't blame the game, the system and the universe that you can't be bothered to put a minimal effort. It doesn't make something hard, it makes you lazy.

 

Oh, and about the dead end - you're very mistaken here. It doesn't matter how big the percentage is (and it is certainly bigger than 5). It's basically extra players which wouldn't otherwise bother playing the game and spending money on it. The mere fact that raid development continues means in the eyes of the developers raids are a market success. And I believe they have the better means to judge that.

[Jumpin Lumpix.6108]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > I am sorry but for me raids are hard(er) content that require dedication and teamwork.

>

> And that is *great!*

>

> Just so long as you don't assume that what they mean to you is what they must *also* mean to everyone else.

>

> >I just dont understand players that want to raid and dont want to do either of those.

>

> And that is *great!*

>

> Just so long as you don't use that lack of understanding as a reason to deny them their own happiness.

>

> > This is what raids are about and if you dont enjoy it simply dont play them. I dont play wvw and pvp because i dont want to play that way even when i paid for them when i bought the game.

>

> Unfortunately, that's not an option, as the developers have locked certain content and rewards behind raid participation. Hopefully, that will change in the future though.

>

> >And last thing. You can IGNORE raids and enjoy your solo gameplay. Raids never took that away from you.

>

> They didn't, although they did remove access to Legendary armor, and gated off participation in various parts of Tyria's lore.

>

> >You are asking for changes to lfg and easier raids. Well i want more raids and harder too.

>

> That's fine too.

>

> > @"Henry.5713" said:

> >Can't believe I am actually quoting the manifesto to prove my point. Which part of it says that the game is specifically designed for those who refuse to group with others?

>

> None of it. Now, which part of that *contradicts* what I just said? The "manifesto" is not the point, the point is the game they *delivered* and maintained up through the launch of HoT.

>

> > @"Neutra.6857" said:

> > If you wish to join raiding but do not want to really interact with people they are a good way to do so while increasing your LI. This allows you to "play around other people" but not "linked to other people" while raiding since you can join a group when you want and are not on any set schedule, nor with any need for speaking and they tend to not ask for your LI level. So no it is not like responding with why don't you eat PB&J.

>

> With the current raid balance, any group that does not involve credentials likely also does not involve successful runs. Every training group I've been a part of has spent several hours and accomplished nothing. I do not want to "train" for raids, I want to *clear* raids.

 

Ivw never played a game that has had training raids before other then gw2, I joined one a long time ago and it was insufferable and patronizing. They kept repeating over voice com like a mantra that they weren't trying to get a kill. It's really bizarre, especially for someone like me who was in top raiding guilds in wow during burning crusade and wrath of the lich king. I can't even wrap my head around raiding in that time period if they had that attitude or training raids for that matter, because we never would of accomplished anything. Our groups were always trying for a kill, it's silly and demoralizing and I don't know where this concept has emerged from.

 

What I've seen from this thread is that the people who understand what I'm saying actually are veteran raiders, and others who are new to raiding in general, (as in gw2 is one of the first games they've raided in) don't seem to understand at all.

 

Also my idea of a training raid I'd watching 5 min of the fight on YouTube, and yes for me as a skilled raider, that is more then enough training for me to get a kill on the first try, believe it or not.

[Turin.6921]

> @"intox.6347" said:

 

> Open world dont need copy of raid mechanics, they can have own, and they had them... now they just focus on raid, so they just ctrl+c ctrl+v into open.

 

And yet it happens and works nicely. I do not think you know how development works. Also i do not see how the company is raid focused with only 10 ppl doing the work out of some hundreds.

 

> That is here from start... on dungeons, fractals. Benchmarks from raid helps people to raid, thats not contribution to whole gw2 community,it only makes more modes toxic. > Yeah you can see that staff weaver can have biggest numbers to static big target, but thats is same for 5 years.

 

That is your opinion but many people get informed from these raider builds. The more challenging the content, the more insight skilled players get, from which the casual can then use.

 

> Thats not how bussines works... these ppl play a lot and farm a lot... they can buy stuff via gold. Newcomers making money, they dont have gold, buy stuff via real currency. >You can see that how fast they put on table new outfits, gem weapon, exclusive blc items, mounts .... but still not finished promised HoT leges ..

 

Sure dedicated players that are invested in the game never spend money. Its only the newcomers that might leave in a month or 2.

 

> That numbers are not good viewership :D

 

Still the best the game had ever.

 

> Where normal person can find how much ppl is deticated to each mode / thing, coz if they can make in 10 ppl lot of content, there will for sure different number of ppl on other things... for example cant think that 10 ppl works on pvp... in state in which is now.

 

That sentence did not make much sense but if i understood your question correctly you can see a list of employees on the wiki.

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/ArenaNet

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Guild_Wars_2_Raids_Team

 

 

[DutchRiders.2871]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"BOAsnake.7401" said:

> > You actually sound like a spoiled child. "I dont wanna do something every raiders do, change it", have you even payed attention to the nunber of people disagreeing with you on this thread?

>

> Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too.

>

> And yes compared to gw2 I have been "spoiled" by other mmos that have tons of features to ease the grouping process. I dunno why I shouldn't expect the same from gw2 since it functions like raiding from 2004 but it's the year 2018

 

I completely agree, I also want tools and QoL features like gear inspect and kill history, so I can more easily group with like minded players and redirect beginner players to beginner groups.

[intox.6347]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> As for the raids. I started from a similar position. Poked my guildies for two weeks until we finally agreed to try it. Pugged some people to fill the team, went off and kept failing. Then we repeated the process on the next weekend and we eventually got the kill. In the end we didn't really continue, as not everyone was really excited about it. Like I said, to each their own. So I looked for a training guild, joined one, and kept failing.

I get the point, you need to put lot of more effort into it. Raiders here said ... raid is easy, is not that hard. But truth is how you write it ... you need to overcome fails and if you are patient enough... you will maybe succeed. Thats doesnt sound like easy... thats why ppl dont bother go raid.

 

> Oh, and about the dead end - you're very mistaken here. It doesn't matter how big the percentage is (and it is certainly bigger than 5). It's basically extra players which wouldn't otherwise bother playing the game and spending money on it. The mere fact that raid development continues means in the eyes of the developers raids are a market success. And I believe they have the better means to judge that.

 

Ah i think we dont want to talk how this works. I worked 9 years in advertisement and graphic and this is really bad way. You cant focus on minor group which farmed more so have more. Its like you focus with selling cheap economy cars for rich people, no sense. Once you are too much deticated ... you spend more time in game... you prolly are not on good position with work(if you have one), so you think more about spending some money, you have gold, you can buy it with gold. But person who started.... see shiny.... it wants shiny.... gems to gold, win. They need more character slots, more bank slots, this outfit.

 

And if raid is successful, why they need to force ppl go there ? ( lege trinket collection... new special skins like oblivion..), they dont have enough participation so they try lure ppl there. And something like ... "why they making new ? ..." coz they dont get it.... its same like Elon Musk and Tesla... its nice vision... but it dont work ... they sell car on which they cant make money, tesla is in big dept... but they will do it till fatal end. Same here... raid was big promissing thing, highend pve... but it dont have that attention what they think it will have.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Ze Dos Cavalos.6132" said:

> What killed Sab was players drama about difficulty.

> Now you doing the same with raids, making lots of drama complaining its too hard, trying to kill raids or something.

> But raids are not a side project like Sab, so ofc they won't stop coming just because 5 people in the forum made 1000 posts asking for easy ways to do them.

It was not the drama or few players posting that killed SAB. It was a significant drop in popularity of world 2 compared to world 1. Anet thought that the players interested in SAB liked the difficulty, and would like bigger difficulty even more. It turns out however that they miscalculated, and not only the number of players that wanted bigger challenge (both in world 2 and in Tribulation mode) weren't as big as they thought, but also the change in difficulty managed to discourage a lot of players that liked world 1.

 

They gave on SAB not because players were complaining. They gave on it because players _stopped playing it_.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > As for the raids. I started from a similar position. Poked my guildies for two weeks until we finally agreed to try it. Pugged some people to fill the team, went off and kept failing. Then we repeated the process on the next weekend and we eventually got the kill. In the end we didn't really continue, as not everyone was really excited about it. Like I said, to each their own. So I looked for a training guild, joined one, and kept failing.

> I get the point, you need to put lot of more effort into it. Raiders here said ... raid is easy, is not that hard. But truth is how you write it ... you need to overcome fails and if you are patient enough... you will maybe succeed. Thats doesnt sound like easy... thats why ppl dont bother go raid.

 

And it's fine. The game is big - it has enough to offer them beside raids. If anything, it is the hard content that is lacking, not the easy one.

 

> @"intox.6347" said:

> And if raid is successful, why they need to force ppl go there ?

 

Because this is how games work. They offer rewards to make you play them.

[Digit.1823]

> @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > @"Digit.1823" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too

> >

> > Well it's atleast good to know that your "suggestions" are born out of a completely personal problem that really does not merit anything, simply because you are so jaded after years of "top guild raiding" for the past 17 years.

> >

> > Look man, if you're so tired or MMO raiding why not just focus on a different genre of gaming. I hear Fortnite is pretty popular.

>

> I'll stick to gw2 and see if they won't just change it thanks.

>

> Also 17 years of raiding, what would I know about raids or grouping for that matter.

 

Apparently nothing because you're taking the entire social aspect of an MMO, you know the part where you talk/communicate/discuss with other people around the globe in order to beat hard content, and basically say "i want none of that, but i still want to join parties and get every shinie without ever having to talk to anyone". That's just not how it works. You don't need to even talk that much actually, quickly discuss roles and then bam start killing things. Are those 3 lines of text you have to type when you join a squad so triggering for you?

 

You can complain about GW2 not having an auto-party tool or something similar to LFR like WoW has. But you're aware that even the people who implemented LFR in WoW have admitted to feeling regret for ever making such a tool because it gutted raiding in WoW pretty severely.

 

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Digit.1823" said:

> > > @"Jumpin Lumpix.6108" said:

> > > Well when you've raided in mmos for 17 years, been in top guilds, you might get burnt out on the grouping process too

> >

> > Well it's atleast good to know that your "suggestions" are born out of a completely personal problem

> The suggestions to add raids were also born out of completely personal problems.

 

I literally cannot imagine the mental gymnastics you're performing to compare quite a large group of players asking for challenging end-game content, which was very valid because Anet literally gave us raids and have commented that they are happy with how they are right now, to the complaint of a single individual who does not agree with the grouping process of said content (2 VERY different things) _and even call the former completely personal problems_ and then make a post thinking you completely sucker punched any argument I've made. So smug, please stop doing that.

 

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Digit.1823" said:

> > Look man, if you're so tired or MMO raiding why not just focus on a different genre of gaming. I hear Fortnite is pretty popular.

>

> People came to Guild Wars 2 to **get away from raiding.**

 

What even is this point? Can't they get away from raiding then? What does the implementation of this game mode do for those people? Nothing, that's what. They have open world/dungeons/fractals/community events/world exploration/story instances, literally every aspect of the game that is not raids is still there for them. So what then? You're implying raids is making it difficult for open world people to do their thing? I cannot count the amount of guildies i have so happily doing their personal thing day in day out without giving raids even a sliver of thought. But the second one of my younger guild members wants to give raid training they only express positive thoughts and even want to join up if there is the chance. (And immediatly get kills on the first raid training in wing 4, sure arguably one of the easier wings, but still).

 

So you can see our personal experiences regarding raids are massively different, but i see you so easily throw around words like "most people/vocal majority/i experience so often" with out EVER proving anything with actual numbers or data. At this point i'm not even sure how people can keep up discussing with you when you're so obviously rife with confirmation bias and so easily dismiss anything they say, retorting everything with "in my experience/many people/vocal majority" and never actually back that up with anything other then your own outlook on things. "The poll of one", comes to mind here. "Yeah guys i interviewed this one person here and i'm going to use that as hard data to show the opinions of everyone else on this specific subject. Oh and that person was myself."

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

I haven't read the whole thread, but if I read the OP and some of his/her posts, I can understand why a lot of ppl here are forming an opinion against his/her ideas. But imo there are definitely problems with GW2 raiding, and imo most of it can be tracked back to the entry level being too high for the _wrong_ reasons.

I have my Legendary armor now and still consider myself a VERY casual raider.

This is because when I started raiding there was no way I could properly get into it: Not with my own guild, after a LOT of practising we only managed to properly do Escort. Why, you would say, are you guys that bad? No, we never had anyone wanting to play Chrono and/or Druid. Our 2 Warrior mains, just didn't like to play with Banners, and we only had one main Ele .... And ANet just really didn't design Raids for Necros/Reapers, Revenants/Heralds and Thieves (save for those couple of weeks that all these were actually optimal, mostly to be nerfed back to the ground only a couple of weeks later!) which 5 of us were maining back then! Sure, they're all 'viable', but try that with 10 ppl of which half was still playing in full Exotic gear, and some with some extra toughness/vitality on it as well. Other half was more than happy to adjust their gear, playstyle, etc. But adjusting classes and elite specialization was a whole different issue! After a while of mainly failing raids, I found a different guild that was more into it, but at some stage were changing their priorities in- and outside the game and fell apart only weeks after I joined them. They started out as quite OK-ish, but werent that great either, which changed (again, only for a few weeks though), when they were setting very hard requirements .... **class** and build requirements! They were all of the sudden able to do kills in a record tempo, but again they fell apart only several weeks later (I still believe _because_ of the (toxic) requirements, but hey, who am I to draw that conclusion). After a lot of pugging, which mainly made my life miserable (I normally am a Necro/Reaper main) and having far more failed attempts than successful ones I was finally extremely lucky to find a guild that _never_ asked me to play anything specific: sorry, I really just don't like to play Chrono/Druid/Weaver, and to return that favor I threw away my beloved main and mainly only played Condi Mirage, Power Holo and sometimes BS. Unless there was a capable Weaver in our team, I was always top DPS!

That's what really got my Legendary armor: a LOT of luck (of finding that one guild that's nice enough to let you play anything) and just the fact that I finally gave up on the less capable classes (for me in particular: Necro), to just conform to what **is** actually a LOT better performing (and don't come, with then you're playing it wrong, it statistically just **IS**).

The first thing is just pure luck! But the second is something that's definitely fixable! ANet, please FIX the mandatory class requirements, it will at least change _that_ entry barrier (pun intended :D)

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

> >

> > > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

> >

> > But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

> >

> > I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

> >

> As for the raids. I started from a similar position. Poked my guildies for two weeks until we finally agreed to try it. Pugged some people to fill the team, went off and kept failing. Then we repeated the process on the next weekend and we eventually got the kill. In the end we didn't really continue, as not everyone was really excited about it. Like I said, to each their own. So I looked for a training guild, joined one, and kept failing. See the pattern here? It's personal involvement. You can't blame the game, the system and the universe that you can't be bothered to put a minimal effort. It doesn't make something hard, it makes you lazy.

 

My experience with Raids, much like what you have stated above, does that mean I’m lazy and didn’t put minimal effort?

 

 

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

 

> I am pretty happy to focus on the game mode that I actually enjoy more and get its rewards without feeling left our cause i do not want to invest on the other modes. I do not feel entitled to the rewards of modes i do not play and i would never ask for a change on a mode to accommodate my needs when it might affect the people that already enjoy it. Nothing is forcing you to play other game modes if these modes do not stick well with your style and schedule. Any enforcement you are feeling on the matter is self-inflicted. All modes have prestigious and unique rewards and more are added with every patch.

>

>

 

I'm like that too.. I don't feel I'm entitled to hv something in the game .. or try to demand for game mode that fit my playstlye. I just play the game when I can. I still hv so much ap to do for PvP n Wvw. It isn't even hard, I just need to spend my time there and i am delaying that everyday or deliberately ignoring it xD

[Talindra.4958]

> @"intox.6347" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"intox.6347" said:

> > > See lot of raiders taking point like " Its all ok"

> > > % of ppl raiding will be interesting statistics.

> > > As a normal person which have some hours per day for game i dont find raids viable. I can do T4 fracts with no problem, party done fast and then you go.

>

> > when I want a smooth clear, - ask specific roles, ping kps, etc.

>

> But almost all raiders here said that raid is easy, why you need specific roles, ping kill proofs, show eq or link eff acc. Coz its not that easy, bad party = fail. Its easy for somebody who do it on daily basis. So its about ppl, but how easy is to setup normal party which will not fail ?

>

> I really dont care much if came here 20 raiders saying all fine. Im playing from start, from all my friends, guildies going raid 8 ppl (from 650) ... some of them failed many atempts on VG long time ago... and that was end. From my point of view.... that much energy put in something for just 5% of population... dead end.

>

 

It takes a while before you find it easy. Some mechanics you can feel it's coming after a while just doing your normal skill rotation

I only kill raid boss once a week I don't do more than that. I know many ppl actually do raid few times a week repeating to help others or they just find it fun to repeat it.. these ppl likely to hv more exp even if they hv lower li.

In pug raid. You will need to be confident. Takes a while to get the hang of all mechanics. yesterday full clear at reset for me was really fun. The ppl I played with- i found them from previous pugging ..eventho I was leading the squad but everyone is helping to set things up.. eg markers if I forgot. But markers not required anyway in all raid when ppl knows what they are doing. everyone in the group is nice.. we hv ppl from different countries .. Spain, France, Portugal, Poland, Australia, Germany, Greece, etc. Multicultural. If someone accidentally fail a mechanic which can happen they will say sorry and ppl make joke etc.. ppl are not toxic.. :) if someone die from explosion we just go "HAHAHAHA.. ".. and everyone is very quick to provide aid to party members with back up mechanics... we don't use ts or discord in any of our raid run.

Once you hv done a lot of raid over time .. you will get to a stage that raid is like t4 run with cool ppl ?