Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Grimjack.8130]

I'm still puzzled at the fact that Scourge is an issue but Weaver isn't. I feel like I just need to list the where every class is meta at this point, because no one seems to know.

One person said Scourge is meta at Gorseval, complaining about a false reality won't help your cause.

 

Vale Guardian : Scourge

Gorseval : Weaver

Sabetha : Scourge

 

Slothasor : Weaver

Trio : Anything?

Matt : Mirage

 

Escort : Anything?

Keep Construct : Weaver

Xera : Weaver UNLESS you slow DPS post 50% to avoid glitches, then Scourge.

 

Cairn : Mirage (CM too)

Mursatt Overseer : Mirage/Weaver (CM = Scourge)

Samarog : Weaver (CM too)

Deimos : Weaver (CM = Weaver/Scourge)

 

Soulless Horror : Scourge (CM too)

River : See Trio and Escort, see a theme yet?

Statues : See River, how about now?

Dhuum : Scourge (CM too)

 

Now that that's out of the way, here is a list of what would be meta where if Epidemic got changed, and everything else stayed the same.

 

Vale Guardian : Weaver

Gorseval : Weaver

Sabetha : Mirage/Weaver

 

Slothasor : Weaver

Matt : Mirage

 

Keep Construct : Weaver

Xera : Weaver

 

Cairn : Mirage (CM too)

Mursatt Overseer : Weaver/Mirage (CM = Weaver)

Samarog : Weaver (CM too)

Deimos : Weaver (CM too)

 

Soulless Horror : Mirage (CM too)

Dhuum : Weaver (CM = Weaver/Mirage)

 

Wow, that sure looks healthier than the first list. /s

 

The game is quite balanced right now, if you choose to run something like Holosmith instead of a Weaver on a Weaver fight you get close to the same results. If you run Weaver instead of a Scourge on a Scourge fight you get close to the same results. Everything is quite balanced, Epidemic has just been in the spotlight for a very long time now, for no real reason.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> The game is quite balanced right now, if you choose to run something like Holosmith instead of a Weaver on a Weaver fight you get close to the same results. If you run Weaver instead of a Scourge on a Scourge fight you get close to the same results. Everything is quite balanced, Epidemic has just been in the spotlight for a very long time now, for no real reason.

 

Nobody said that Weaver- (or Mirage-) stacking isn't a problem. It is and it has to be solved. But just by throwing Holosmith into the bunch, you really can't call the game balanced. That's ludicrous. The game would be balanced if every class would be viable (viable - not optimal) at every encounter and - of course - if there finally were real alternatives to Chrono and Druid. The game in its current state simply doesn't know balance. Period.

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> >

> > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

>

> Hold on, I feel this statement is quite disingenuous. Epi bouncing is a dps strategy. All the mechanics are still present, you have to watch for echo, you need someone taking care of messengers. In fact, as grimjack pointed out earlier, all necro comp makes the pre-phase and taking care of enforcers more difficult. Additionally green circles are still present, as is soul suck etc, and dip.

>

> Have you ever done dhuum cm? Or are you just going on hearsay from others? Removing epi would be replace "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" , with "do your standard dps rotation". Doing a dps rotation is not the hard part of dhuum cm.

>

> Also, as someone who had a dhuum cm group wipe at .8% (if only we had another 2 seconds on the timer...), I can tell you that purely condi dps comps based on echo path rng have their drawbacks...

>

>

 

You can control echo pathing. It's not RNG, it always targets one of the players. That makes it actually quite easy to control, especially on the 10% phase. And to answer the question - yes, I have done it. Doing the pre event requires a somewhat different management, but it is by no means harder. Trying to pull off a weaver rotation, however, *is* harder on this fight. Much, MUCH harder than the no-effort epi bounce. Sure, you can pick another dps class, but then you'd likely lack cleave, and you kind of want it for the CM. Epi gives you both stupid high cleave and outright broken single target.

 

By the way, some peeps recently posted a video of them 4-manning Gorseval. One chrono and 3 scourges. But keep telling me how epi is fine.

[Belorn.2659]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> I'm still puzzled at the fact that Scourge is an issue but Weaver isn't. I feel like I just need to list the where every class is meta at this point, because no one seems to know.

> One person said Scourge is meta at Gorseval, complaining about a false reality won't help your cause.

>

 

The thing to remember when doing such list is that there are two relevant stats. Top dps that represent speed runs and top average dps that represent the average run. Depending on which one you pick you get weaver occasionally on second place rather than first.

 

Otherwise a relative good summery of the top dps class for each raid boss.

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

 

Sure sure, I remember back in the days, only bear bow was more popular than my necromancer for dungeoning. So much damage and survivability... Passing throught dungeon was a breeze with a necromancer. And when fractal appeared... god! How OP I was feeling as a necromancer destroying anything in front of me and with so much survivability that taking packs of mob was a joke. That is, until they started to put boons on mobs. Yeah, that just kill the fun making necromancer totally obsolete. But hey! thanksfully HoT arrived and reaper soon became number one pick for raids with it's never ever before seen power dps. And now, scourge, toping condi dps even without epidemic and providing very important support that no one would want to ditch out with absolutely 0 effort needed.

 

Necro sure always been op in PvE end game content.

 

In a more serious tone, the necromancer is not easier to play than any other profession outside maybe engi and elementalist and that's when you play try hard build for these 2 professions. In HoT, power reaper could not even reach power phalanx warrior dps and even it's best condi build had to rely on gimmick to barely reach what other dps professions could do. In PoF, nothing really changed for power necromancer and condi necromancer still have pitiable dps if you don't use epidemic gimmick.

 

So yeah, sure it's a 0 skill 0 effort class that's super strong without epi... in a far away parallele universe that is. The only think that keep the necromancer with a slight hope of raiding in PvE is epidemic, remove it and the necromancer is neither strong nor easy to play, it's just on the bench spending it's time looking at other professions with eyes full of jealousy.

 

That said, I'm not saying that epidemic is a good thing for the game and neither do I say that barrier is good for the game. The necromancer suffer from design flaw that make him good or "strong", like you say, only if he is heavily stacked into the squad. Nothing more, nothing less. Remove those advantage from him and he become inexistant in the game mode like he was in the vanilla game.

 

 

[maxwelgm.4315]

This topic has come a long way and I guess people do care about Epi being the only trick up the Necro's sleeve, much more than Anet cares for it lol. I'll just barge in and say that, Scourge was obviously designed for PvP, and I'm starting to think all of Necro is. Within the previous 2 balance matches Scourge is now in a position (in PvP) where it can actually provide the support/pressure role Anet has intended, while being vulnerable enough to kill and deadly enough to require being focused like any other support. It's in a great state over there currently. Sadly, it does not see the same light of the day Mirage does in both PvP and PvE, much because Mirage can still get insane damage modifiers in PvE while still having an obviously PvP-oriented kit. If you ask me, I think Anet has no idea of what to do with defensive/supportive classes. They don't know how to fix Chrono hegemony, they don't know how to make Scourge viable and not feel cheap ("hotfixing" a "bug" for "purity of purpose" where Dhuumfire would trigger with every shade skill is an example), they have NO IDEA what they actually want Druid to be, and so on. It's very easy for them to buff Mirage to viability in both modes because it's meant as an offensive DPS class with plenty of passive defenses, but anything other than DPS completely goes over their heads. Gee it's almost like they have designed themselves into a corner with trying to reinvent the wheel of Tank-Heal-DPS!

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

 

_This_ is the real problem: people that say things like this! And I'm pretty sure this person has never even touched the Necro once in his/her life. Let alone trying every single day to get into PUG groups (raids/fractals), where you as a class are _the_ number one pariah since pretty much the beginning of this game. Necro as a class is and has been _the_ most useless class since 2012 in the PvE endgame. And now they have something that makes them good in _some_ occasions (read: some raids only), they need to be nerfed to the ground completely, with no compensation whatsoever according to these kind of people.

You see, the difference between a Necro main and an Ele main (because I'm pretty sure, that's what you are, judging from this comment alone even), is that an Ele doesn't have to try other classes, because they _are_, _have been_ and always _will be_ META in the PvE endgame. Whereas Necro mains pretty much _have_ to try other classes just to even save them from that everyday hassle of being grossly unwanted while PUGing PvE endgame content. So 0 effort you say ... hell, the effort already starts _before_ you even start your raid/fractal in the first place! Let me not even start about the actual raid/fractal itself. Getting to the numbers pretty much _any_ other class can get to with **FAR** less effort than say a Reaper can get to is ridiculous! But hey, I can try to convince you all I want, but the most easiest way that will convince you straight away is to just try it for yourself. Try to PUG Necro for several weeks in Raids and T4 Fractals (and if you really like a challenge try Reaper), I dare you! And again, pointing out the difference here ... I don't have to ask this to any Necro main out there, because they have .... they just have to!!!

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

>

> _This_ is the real problem: people that say things like this! And I'm pretty sure this person has never even touched the Necro once in his/her life. Let alone trying every single day to get into PUG groups (raids/fractals)

 

Meanwhile Teapot does a whole series based on the premise of joining raids with a power reaper without any kps. Come on. A lot of groups will let you in, partly out of curiosity and partly because they just don't care. The ones who won't take you are the actual top elitists which want to minmax everything and clueless pugs you don't wanna be in anyway.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

OK, I know my opinion might not be the most popular here, but I actually like not having a super complex rotation or what not. This is a game, I don't want to spend hours getting achieves. If you want a super complicated rotation, then play engi and do cm raids. Honestly I don't know why something that is good dps and makes a fight SLIGHTLY easier should be nerfed? I have a hard enough time getting into raids on my necro anyway, mostly cause I took a long break from the game and don't have like 500 LI, haven't done the newest wing, and also play reaper (reaper dps was nerfed because of scourge which already bugs me). We don't need necro getting nerfed any more than it already was a few months ago. Why would you want to make things harder for other players? Why not just challenge yourself?

 

The reason I prefer easy rotations is I can't afford a good gaming PC right now so I get 15 fps in most encounters. Gorseval is like 13. It is the most I can do to try to keep up with the fight mechanics and I know them super well - it's just hard when your fps is too low.

 

I know I am not the only player out there who prefers easy rotations because of technical limitations. Honestly, if you want to challenge yourself GREAT! But please don't take the fun away for the rest of us!

[Feanor.2358]

Slightly easier? **Slightly???**

[Malediktus.9250]

I dont think Anet should cater to people with 15 fps in endgame content, it does not take a beast computer to run 30+ fps in raids. There are only 10 people around

There is open world for people who want things to be easy

[Raizel.8175]

> @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> OK, I know my opinion might not be the most popular here, but I actually like not having a super complex rotation or what not. This is a game, I don't want to spend hours getting achieves. If you want a super complicated rotation, then play engi and do cm raids. Honestly I don't know why something that is good dps and makes a fight SLIGHTLY easier should be nerfed? I have a hard enough time getting into raids on my necro anyway, mostly cause I took a long break from the game and don't have like 500 LI, haven't done the newest wing, and also play reaper (reaper dps was nerfed because of scourge which already bugs me). We don't need necro getting nerfed any more than it already was a few months ago. Why would you want to make things harder for other players? Why not just challenge yourself?

>

> The reason I prefer easy rotations is I can't afford a good gaming PC right now so I get 15 fps in most encounters. Gorseval is like 13. It is the most I can do to try to keep up with the fight mechanics and I know them super well - it's just hard when your fps is too low.

>

> I know I am not the only player out there who prefers easy rotations because of technical limitations. Honestly, if you want to challenge yourself GREAT! But please don't take the fun away for the rest of us!

 

At the encounters where you can abuse Epidemic, it's not just slightly, sorry (is that a reference to Mrs. Price?). You reach somewhat around 30k + dps rather easily as bouncing Scourge and you provide a lot of barrier. You can ignore entire mechanics due to really high dps and massive survivability through barrier. This leads to situations like ignoring cannons at Sabetha and stuff like that (there are a lot of examples, really).

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Slightly easier? **Slightly???**

 

It's not easier than warrior, guardian, thief, ranger, revenant, holosmith... even mesmer. And the rotation is not easy by choice but because there is no choice for it to be harder. Elementalist have an harder rotation? Maybe, however the reason they do have an harder rotation is that they have material to have harder rotations. I'm sure necromancers would love to have weapon skill set that aren't just utilities outside of their auto attack. I'm sure necromancer would love to be able to have on demand utility skill that hit more then once per second their target and have a relatively short cool down. I'm sure that necromancers would love to have as many traits with damage modifier than an elementalist. I'm sure that necromancer would love to have other option than to take all the damage with their hp like any other profession out there.

 

So yes the necromancer is "different", yes the necromancer is forced to tank the damage where other professions actually have the choice to deal with it differently. The necromancer's damage, outside of epidemic is on the low side, it's support is at best unappropriate and it's defense only feel lazier because it's only defense is it's health point.

 

The necromancer have a gimmick that he start to exploit after 6 year of the game, it's just it's last resort. If this gimmick wasn't exploited you'd see no necromancer in raid, this thread wouldn't even exist and most likely you wouldn't care that the necromancer can finally have a life in PvE.

[alaskasnowgirl.6047]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> > OK, I know my opinion might not be the most popular here, but I actually like not having a super complex rotation or what not. This is a game, I don't want to spend hours getting achieves. If you want a super complicated rotation, then play engi and do cm raids. Honestly I don't know why something that is good dps and makes a fight SLIGHTLY easier should be nerfed? I have a hard enough time getting into raids on my necro anyway, mostly cause I took a long break from the game and don't have like 500 LI, haven't done the newest wing, and also play reaper (reaper dps was nerfed because of scourge which already bugs me). We don't need necro getting nerfed any more than it already was a few months ago. Why would you want to make things harder for other players? Why not just challenge yourself?

> >

> > The reason I prefer easy rotations is I can't afford a good gaming PC right now so I get 15 fps in most encounters. Gorseval is like 13. It is the most I can do to try to keep up with the fight mechanics and I know them super well - it's just hard when your fps is too low.

> >

> > I know I am not the only player out there who prefers easy rotations because of technical limitations. Honestly, if you want to challenge yourself GREAT! But please don't take the fun away for the rest of us!

>

> At the encounters where you can abuse Epidemic, it's not just slightly, sorry (is that a reference to Mrs. Price?). You reach somewhat around 30k + dps rather easily as bouncing Scourge and you provide a lot of barrier. You can ignore entire mechanics due to really high dps and massive survivability through barrier. This leads to situations like ignoring cannons at Sabetha and stuff like that (there are a lot of examples, really).

 

1. I don't play Scourge since I so recently came back from a break. I have it unlocked, I just don't have the rotation memorized so I am more useful on Reaper.

2. 30k dps is pretty normal for good dps on any class, and ele and thief can go higher than that. Heck, even my condi firebrand gets close to 30k, though that's with max buffs/practice golem. The reason I said "slightly" easier is that the fights are still objectively difficult and require a knowledge of mechanics. For example, epi doesn't help you position yourself any better in the samarog fight, or break knuckle's bar any better.

3. I guess this is more of a barrier problem unique to Scourge from what you have said about ignoring boss mechanics. Maybe barrier should be addressed, but I don't see why epi is an issue. Really skilled players can get much higher dps than epi from their rotations on other classes including Weaver. If some people want a slightly simpler rotation, or a bit of an easier fight, why not? It's a game, it should be fun.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Slightly easier? **Slightly???**

>

> It's not easier than warrior, guardian, thief, ranger, revenant, holosmith... even mesmer.

 

I wasn't talking about the difficulty of the rotation, rather the relative difficulty of the encounter. Last time I checked, Scourge was the **only** dps class present in the raidar's statictics for Dhuum CM. There's a reason for that and it's not "slightly". "Slightly" easier/better does not result in 100% of the groups favoring a single dps build. Even on KC, where eles have always been far superior to anything else, you can see other classes being used. Because it doesn't make much of a difference in the overall chances to beat the encounter.

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Slightly easier? **Slightly???**

> >

> > It's not easier than warrior, guardian, thief, ranger, revenant, holosmith... even mesmer.

>

> I wasn't talking about the difficulty of the rotation, rather the relative difficulty of the encounter. Last time I checked, Scourge was the **only** dps class present in the raidar's statictics for Dhuum CM. There's a reason for that and it's not "slightly". "Slightly" easier/better does not result in 100% of the groups favoring a single dps build. Even on KC, where eles have always been far superior to anything else, you can see other classes being used. Because it doesn't make much of a difference in the overall chances to beat the encounter.

 

Yeah... you're looking at it the wrong way... Impressive. Necromancer and particularly scourge are stack because they fare well only if you stack them. Not because they are "easier". Epidemic bounce work well **only** if you stack necromancers, this is the very difference with other professions, not a difference of difficulty. So NO necromancer isn't easier than any other profession, necromancer stack well, that's all.

 

And people favor a profession over another in raid for a single reason which is not dependant of difficulty. They stack dps professions only if there is a proved efficiency in doing so. Like condi rangers had their moment of limelight in hot or like elementalists dominated dungeons for a long time.

 

If elementalist's dps shot through the roof when they hit a large target, necromancer's dps shot throught the roof when they are stacked in a party. Make all elementalist skills that have a set number of impacts into common area of effect skills and the elementalist disappear from raid the same way that the necromancer would disappear if you removed the only skill that keep him afloat: _epidemic_

[Raizel.8175]

> @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"alaskasnowgirl.6047" said:

> > > OK, I know my opinion might not be the most popular here, but I actually like not having a super complex rotation or what not. This is a game, I don't want to spend hours getting achieves. If you want a super complicated rotation, then play engi and do cm raids. Honestly I don't know why something that is good dps and makes a fight SLIGHTLY easier should be nerfed? I have a hard enough time getting into raids on my necro anyway, mostly cause I took a long break from the game and don't have like 500 LI, haven't done the newest wing, and also play reaper (reaper dps was nerfed because of scourge which already bugs me). We don't need necro getting nerfed any more than it already was a few months ago. Why would you want to make things harder for other players? Why not just challenge yourself?

> > >

> > > The reason I prefer easy rotations is I can't afford a good gaming PC right now so I get 15 fps in most encounters. Gorseval is like 13. It is the most I can do to try to keep up with the fight mechanics and I know them super well - it's just hard when your fps is too low.

> > >

> > > I know I am not the only player out there who prefers easy rotations because of technical limitations. Honestly, if you want to challenge yourself GREAT! But please don't take the fun away for the rest of us!

> >

> > At the encounters where you can abuse Epidemic, it's not just slightly, sorry (is that a reference to Mrs. Price?). You reach somewhat around 30k + dps rather easily as bouncing Scourge and you provide a lot of barrier. You can ignore entire mechanics due to really high dps and massive survivability through barrier. This leads to situations like ignoring cannons at Sabetha and stuff like that (there are a lot of examples, really).

>

> 1. I don't play Scourge since I so recently came back from a break. I have it unlocked, I just don't have the rotation memorized so I am more useful on Reaper.

> 2. 30k dps is pretty normal for good dps on any class, and ele and thief can go higher than that. Heck, even my condi firebrand gets close to 30k, though that's with max buffs/practice golem. The reason I said "slightly" easier is that the fights are still objectively difficult and require a knowledge of mechanics. For example, epi doesn't help you position yourself any better in the samarog fight, or break knuckle's bar any better.

 

30k DPS is pretty outstanding in an actual raid-scenario and far from being normal. I only started raiding 3~4 months ago though and I'm dependant on PUGs, but I rarely ever see people with 30k + dps outside of scenarios like KC or very add-heavy encounters like Xera. In PUGs, numbers like 20~25k are already really good.

 

> 3. I guess this is more of a barrier problem unique to Scourge from what you have said about ignoring boss mechanics. Maybe barrier should be addressed, but I don't see why epi is an issue. Really skilled players can get much higher dps than epi from their rotations on other classes including Weaver. If some people want a slightly simpler rotation, or a bit of an easier fight, why not? It's a game, it should be fun.

 

It's not just a barrier-problem, it's also the high dps and the high cleave-damage on adds through epidemic. ...and no, the dps of each class depends a lot on the specific encounters design. Even Weaver won't beat Scourge and encounters where Scourge truly shines.

 

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > >

> > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> >

> > Hold on, I feel this statement is quite disingenuous. Epi bouncing is a dps strategy. All the mechanics are still present, you have to watch for echo, you need someone taking care of messengers. In fact, as grimjack pointed out earlier, all necro comp makes the pre-phase and taking care of enforcers more difficult. Additionally green circles are still present, as is soul suck etc, and dip.

> >

> > Have you ever done dhuum cm? Or are you just going on hearsay from others? Removing epi would be replace "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" , with "do your standard dps rotation". Doing a dps rotation is not the hard part of dhuum cm.

> >

> > Also, as someone who had a dhuum cm group wipe at .8% (if only we had another 2 seconds on the timer...), I can tell you that purely condi dps comps based on echo path rng have their drawbacks...

> >

> >

>

> You can control echo pathing. It's not RNG, it always targets one of the players. That makes it actually quite easy to control, especially on the 10% phase. And to answer the question - yes, I have done it. Doing the pre event requires a somewhat different management, but it is by no means harder. Trying to pull off a weaver rotation, however, *is* harder on this fight. Much, MUCH harder than the no-effort epi bounce. Sure, you can pick another dps class, but then you'd likely lack cleave, and you kind of want it for the CM. Epi gives you both stupid high cleave and outright broken single target.

>

> By the way, some peeps recently posted a video of them 4-manning Gorseval. One chrono and 3 scourges. But keep telling me how epi is fine.

 

Yeah it targets someone, including people up in the sky trying to get orbs. How does that change the fact that you were being completely hyperbolic with your statement? Epi bouncing is a dps strategy, it doesn't remove mechanics. You still have greens, soul suck, echo, and enforcers. Tell me how epi removes all those mechanics, plx you ignored it the first time, tell me this time.

 

Also who cares about 4-manning gorseval with scourges? sc did it 4-man with a different comp. So necro is what....competitive? And that's problematic why? By the way, you know what both of those 4-man groups have in common? They both have a chrono.

 

Chrono has been meta at every boss for years, so has druid, and warrior. Now necro is meta at 5 or 6 bosses, and isn't even being ran by pugs, and its a huge problem? Wheres all the threads arguing chrono's dominance is unhealthy? No where to be found. Anet has had a bias against necro for so long, that necro being meta at anything, is seen as wrong by the community. But the golden-child classes, like warrior, mesmer, and ele, for some reason they are seen as the classes which are suppose to be meta.

 

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Slightly easier? **Slightly???**

> >

> > It's not easier than warrior, guardian, thief, ranger, revenant, holosmith... even mesmer.

>

> I wasn't talking about the difficulty of the rotation, rather the relative difficulty of the encounter. Last time I checked, Scourge was the **only** dps class present in the raidar's statictics for Dhuum CM. There's a reason for that and it's not "slightly". "Slightly" easier/better does not result in 100% of the groups favoring a single dps build. Even on KC, where eles have always been far superior to anything else, you can see other classes being used. Because it doesn't make much of a difference in the overall chances to beat the encounter.

 

For the record, I have been in dhuum cm groups that didn't run any scourges. Just because we never uploaded anything to gw2raidar, doesn't mean we didn't exist. But you know what I have never seen? A group that doesn't bring 2 chronos.

[Sephylon.4938]

we'll see what they do tomorrow

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/47155/coming-tomorrow-7-10-18-balance-patch/p1

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> At the encounters where you can abuse Epidemic, it's not just slightly, sorry (is that a reference to Mrs. Price?). You reach somewhat around 30k + dps rather easily as bouncing Scourge and you provide a lot of barrier.

Maybe at top skill level. Out of personal experience i can tell you it's not as easy as you seem to think.

 

> You can ignore entire mechanics due to really high dps and massive survivability through barrier. This leads to situations like ignoring cannons at Sabetha and stuff like that (there are a lot of examples, really).

And yet almost noone complained at VG overheal and Gorse no updrafts strategies, where you also ignore mechanics through bruteforcing them, but using _other_ classes. And while mesmer distortion share was something people did complain about (and which eventually got nerfed), the complains never reached the current anti-necro levels.

 

 

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"Belorn.2659" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > I'm still puzzled at the fact that Scourge is an issue but Weaver isn't. I feel like I just need to list the where every class is meta at this point, because no one seems to know.

> > One person said Scourge is meta at Gorseval, complaining about a false reality won't help your cause.

> >

>

> The thing to remember when doing such list is that there are two relevant stats. Top dps that represent speed runs and top average dps that represent the average run. Depending on which one you pick you get weaver occasionally on second place rather than first.

>

> Otherwise a relative good summery of the top dps class for each raid boss.

>

 

Speed running should be the only factor that matters, if you don't care about speed running, you shouldn't care about a class outdoing other classes only by a small margin of time. Note I said time and not DPS.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > >

> > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > >

> > > Hold on, I feel this statement is quite disingenuous. Epi bouncing is a dps strategy. All the mechanics are still present, you have to watch for echo, you need someone taking care of messengers. In fact, as grimjack pointed out earlier, all necro comp makes the pre-phase and taking care of enforcers more difficult. Additionally green circles are still present, as is soul suck etc, and dip.

> > >

> > > Have you ever done dhuum cm? Or are you just going on hearsay from others? Removing epi would be replace "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" , with "do your standard dps rotation". Doing a dps rotation is not the hard part of dhuum cm.

> > >

> > > Also, as someone who had a dhuum cm group wipe at .8% (if only we had another 2 seconds on the timer...), I can tell you that purely condi dps comps based on echo path rng have their drawbacks...

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You can control echo pathing. It's not RNG, it always targets one of the players. That makes it actually quite easy to control, especially on the 10% phase. And to answer the question - yes, I have done it. Doing the pre event requires a somewhat different management, but it is by no means harder. Trying to pull off a weaver rotation, however, *is* harder on this fight. Much, MUCH harder than the no-effort epi bounce. Sure, you can pick another dps class, but then you'd likely lack cleave, and you kind of want it for the CM. Epi gives you both stupid high cleave and outright broken single target.

> >

> > By the way, some peeps recently posted a video of them 4-manning Gorseval. One chrono and 3 scourges. But keep telling me how epi is fine.

>

> Yeah it targets someone, including people up in the sky trying to get orbs. How does that change the fact that you were being completely hyperbolic with your statement?

 

Was I? Then how come Scourges completely dominate this fight? Yes, it's a DPS strat. The only one used. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?

 

P.S. Chronos are a different topic. Yes, they also dominate the support scene, for much longer and much harder. Yes, it is a problem. It still doesn't mean Epi is fine.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > > > > how come, if the latter is as rare as you claim, how often is scrourge even being stacked compared to ele?

> > > > >

> > > > > That was not the point. Reducing the hardest boss to "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" *is* a problem.

> > > >

> > > > Hold on, I feel this statement is quite disingenuous. Epi bouncing is a dps strategy. All the mechanics are still present, you have to watch for echo, you need someone taking care of messengers. In fact, as grimjack pointed out earlier, all necro comp makes the pre-phase and taking care of enforcers more difficult. Additionally green circles are still present, as is soul suck etc, and dip.

> > > >

> > > > Have you ever done dhuum cm? Or are you just going on hearsay from others? Removing epi would be replace "target add, look below its health bar, press epi" , with "do your standard dps rotation". Doing a dps rotation is not the hard part of dhuum cm.

> > > >

> > > > Also, as someone who had a dhuum cm group wipe at .8% (if only we had another 2 seconds on the timer...), I can tell you that purely condi dps comps based on echo path rng have their drawbacks...

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You can control echo pathing. It's not RNG, it always targets one of the players. That makes it actually quite easy to control, especially on the 10% phase. And to answer the question - yes, I have done it. Doing the pre event requires a somewhat different management, but it is by no means harder. Trying to pull off a weaver rotation, however, *is* harder on this fight. Much, MUCH harder than the no-effort epi bounce. Sure, you can pick another dps class, but then you'd likely lack cleave, and you kind of want it for the CM. Epi gives you both stupid high cleave and outright broken single target.

> > >

> > > By the way, some peeps recently posted a video of them 4-manning Gorseval. One chrono and 3 scourges. But keep telling me how epi is fine.

> >

> > Yeah it targets someone, including people up in the sky trying to get orbs. How does that change the fact that you were being completely hyperbolic with your statement?

>

> Was I? Then how come Scourges completely dominate this fight? Yes, it's a DPS strat. The only one used. There must be a reason for that, don't you think?

>

> P.S. Chronos are a different topic. Yes, they also dominate the support scene, for much longer and much harder. Yes, it is a problem. It still doesn't mean Epi is fine.

 

Scourge being popular doesn't mean it is removing mechanics from the fight. Please, you have dodged the question twice now. Explain to me, explicitly, how epi as a dps strategy removes the mechanics of the fight.

[Feanor.2358]

I never said it removes mechanics, I said it greatly simplifies the fight. Which it does. Using weavers makes positioning that much more important, both for the boss and the players themselves. A scourge never loses dps because they had to break their Meteor Shower cast to avoid getting picked up. Or because the boss walked/ported out of their Meteor Shower. Using any other dps can mitigate that issue, but present a new one - the need to actively take care of the adds which could otherwise kill a reaper. Scourges don't care about that either - plop some shades on star, pop few epis, done. And on top of that there's the constant Barrier spam which keeps the group nice and safe. And on top of that there's the instant access to CC which doesn't make you lose all your dps.

 

Like I said, there are solid reasons why this particular dps strategy is leaps and bounds ahead of any other.

[Agrippa Oculus.3726]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Agrippa Oculus.3726" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > Necro is strong enough even if they would delete epi entirely, it is a 0 skill 0 effort class

> >

> > _This_ is the real problem: people that say things like this! And I'm pretty sure this person has never even touched the Necro once in his/her life. Let alone trying every single day to get into PUG groups (raids/fractals)

>

> Meanwhile Teapot does a whole series based on the premise of joining raids with a power reaper without any kps. Come on. A lot of groups will let you in, partly out of curiosity and partly because they just don't care. The ones who won't take you are the actual top elitists which want to minmax everything and clueless pugs you don't wanna be in anyway.

 

Funny, I here have similar (anecdotal) proof with the exact opposite results:

 

Anyway, it doesn't really matter, the fact is, that you won't see compilations/series like these for an Ele (or other META class) ... EVER!