Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Malediktus.9250]

Reading the comments it seems like people believe epi is the only reason to take a necro because their dps is garbage otherwise. Seems like even more reason to look at this if the class is only used for one skill. One skill that out dps everything else in the game. And no it doesnt take much communication to use it, it is basically a one liner before the raid starts.

 

> @"crepuscular.9047" said:

> think this is the first time i heard someone asking for a nerf to make raid harder, is OP salty because he got replaced by a necro for epidemic?

No, I never play DPS role in raids (at least I havent in many months since dps is boring to me)

[Grimjack.8130]

Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

 

Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

>

> Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

 

Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"NikeEU.7690" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > I believe epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed. In certain encounters such VG, Sabetha, Desmina, Dhuum CM it just does too much dmg for too low effort. When timed right you can even work around the invulnerability phases of bosses.

> > > I suggest capping the amount of stacks of condis you can transfer. 20 stacks of random condis (in total) instead of 25 stacks of each condition would be appropriate for this skill. That way VG wouldnt loose like 7% of his health bar instantly after being vulnerable again.

> >

> > yes totally.. a friend join our group Monday raid.. saying.. lets all roll necro group. he played with a group the day before and dps was insane. i said to him. we are not going to go imba its just stupid. sorry i have to use such word. u see those video WORLD record click on it.. full group of necro.. such a shame to even put such video up and called it world record. .. i prefer the video that says daily kill with normal balance composition. epi. need nerf.

>

> Whats embarrassing and shameful is your need to call us out unprovoked. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

Lol I said what I believe. :) And nothing I would be proud of with one press skill

Also, no name mentioned here. It's generalised.

When I see a video says world record with full Weaver's .. I go yeh ofc.. move on .. if a video with mix of diff class and prof I'd say that's really cool. Full group of necro and rely heavily on one skill.... ??? I'm sure ppl can do better than that

[Malediktus.9250]

https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/ are also a good place to see how scourge overperforms at bosses where epi bounce is doable

 

Example: 100th percentile dmg taken from that page from Soulless Horror:

Scourge 37076

Mirage 30310

Spellbreaker 28222

Weaver 27964

 

So Scourge overperforms by over 7k dps compared to the 2nd best dps on that boss lol and almost 10k more than flawlessly played weavers.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Henry.5713" said:

> Would like to see a DPS buff of 15-20% and an Epidemic nerf or change. Something to give scourges a place that is more than just situational cheese.

 

^ this +1

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> > If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

> >

> > Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

> Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

>

> Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

 

Do you use Epidemic in your raids or do you not? If you don't it doesn't affect you in any way, so if you were truly unbiased you wouldn't care.

There are 4 fights Scourges or Epidemic is used, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Xera, and Soulless Horror. If you nerf Epidemic, 3 out of those 4 fights, you would run Weavers on, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, and Xera. Right now you could run Weavers on those fights already and get good/the next best results you can. I recognize Dhuum CM is a thing, but most people don't do it weekly, or most likely even more than once.

 

The question isn't "Is Epidemic is too strong?", its "Is it unhealthy for the game?" Right now its healthy for the game, otherwise you'd run into Weavers on those 3 fights, and Scourges no where.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> > > If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

> > >

> > > Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> > Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

> > Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

> >

> > Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

>

> Do you use Epidemic in your raids or do you not? If you don't it doesn't affect you in any way, so if you were truly unbiased you wouldn't care.

> There are 4 fights Scourges or Epidemic is used, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Xera, and Soulless Horror. If you nerf Epidemic, 3 out of those 4 fights, you would run Weavers on, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, and Xera. Right now you could run Weavers on those fights already and get good/the next best results you can. I recognize Dhuum CM is a thing, but most people don't do it weekly, or most likely even more than once.

>

> The question isn't "Is Epidemic is too strong?", its "Is it unhealthy for the game?" Right now its healthy for the game, otherwise you'd run into Weavers on those 3 fights, and Scourges no where.

 

Nah its not healthy for the game if a class overperforms by 7-10k dps on a boss just because of one utility skill.

[Grimjack.8130]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > > @"Grimjack.8130" said:

> > > > Any one here petitioning for Epidemic to get nerfed send me their logs of their Necros epi bouncing? Apparently its easy, so show me that its as easy as you say it is.

> > > > If you don't have logs of Epi bouncing, why are you wanting it to get nerfed? Its not hindering your raid experience, because you're not running it. People will run it if they enjoy it at the end of the day.

> > > >

> > > > Look at Snow Crows, they know Scourge is optimal at Vale Guardian, theres no debating that, but they still run Weavers and Holosmiths because they enjoy it more.

> > > Anet has all the data, no need to proof anything to strangers here. I see no reason to share dps logs with strangers either since they contain all the account names of people.

> > > Since you are apparently from MnF you should know that epidemic is quite an overperforming skill, are you scared your speed clear tactic gets nerfed?

> > >

> > > Personally I think since I do not play any DPS roles in raids I have the most neutral and unbiased perspective humanly possible on this issue.

> >

> > Do you use Epidemic in your raids or do you not? If you don't it doesn't affect you in any way, so if you were truly unbiased you wouldn't care.

> > There are 4 fights Scourges or Epidemic is used, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, Xera, and Soulless Horror. If you nerf Epidemic, 3 out of those 4 fights, you would run Weavers on, Vale Guardian, Sabetha, and Xera. Right now you could run Weavers on those fights already and get good/the next best results you can. I recognize Dhuum CM is a thing, but most people don't do it weekly, or most likely even more than once.

> >

> > The question isn't "Is Epidemic is too strong?", its "Is it unhealthy for the game?" Right now its healthy for the game, otherwise you'd run into Weavers on those 3 fights, and Scourges no where.

>

> Nah its not healthy for the game if a class overperforms by 7-10k dps on a boss just because of one utility skill.

 

You remove Scourge it means you run Weaver on every single fight except for Matt and Soulless Horror. You keep Scourge, and you run it on all fights but 4. You're arguing for a class to be nerfed, when its the class keeping the game's variety up. A class can be too strong, and healthy for the game, right now thats where Scourge is.

 

I want to know if your group, or your pugs you join, run Epidemic, because if they don't why do you care? Its not affecting you, neither would a buff or a nerf to Epidemic.

 

I'd wager that a majority of groups don't run Scourge on those 4 fights anyways, even though its clearly stronger than any other composition.

 

 

[Talindra.4958]

It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding? Not fb, dh, war, DD, holo.. That's because of one skill

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding to push dps higher? That's because of ONE skill

 

In a team environment i see nothing wrong with this. They have to work together to achieve said results, meanwhile a single ele by themselves can benchmark on par with them.

 

Begs the question why 1 class is allowed to equal 2.

But i'm sure someone will point out that ele hits that with chrono/druid/warrior providing buffs. But for the sake of simplifying i removed the common factors.

[Talindra.4958]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding to push dps higher? That's because of ONE skill

>

> In a team environment i see nothing wrong with this. They have to work together to achieve said results, meanwhile a single ele by themselves can benchmark on par with them.

>

> Begs the question why 1 class is allowed to equal 2.

> But i'm sure someone will point out that ele hits that with chrono/druid/warrior providing buffs. But for the sake of simplifying i removed the common factors.

 

That is it. Weaver's are self sufficient .. in a group you can take any other profession there's no restriction to hv all Weaver's. It's balance.

In epi group. You need every dps person to go scourge. THTs not balance disregard how u want to play it. If you don't see what I see .. ah.

[ArthurDent.9538]

I wouldn't be surprised if it gets the signet of inspiration treatment: capped at like 5 stacks for a set duration but will apply those conditions to the target itself so that bouncing is no longer necessary.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding to push dps higher? That's because of ONE skill

>

> In a team environment i see nothing wrong with this. They have to work together to achieve said results, meanwhile a single ele by themselves can benchmark on par with them.

>

> Begs the question why 1 class is allowed to equal 2.

> But i'm sure someone will point out that ele hits that with chrono/druid/warrior providing buffs. But for the sake of simplifying i removed the common factors.

Ehm no. As posted earlier on SH for example epi bounce scourge does almost 10k more dps than weaver (100th percentile data from GW2raidar stats which is based on many thousands of logs). So a flawless playing weaver will get destroyed by even a mediocre scourge epi bouncer

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > 99% of all raid groups aren't stacking necros at VG, Sabetha and Desmina. For Dhuum CM it's a strategy but it requires more than just mass necros to overcome that fight. I doubt that it has to be nerfed only because it was "meta" when executed properly in the tournament.

>

> It was already OP before

Yeah. So OP almost noone actually does it. I guess majority of raiders just prefer making things harder for themselves for no reason.

 

 

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > > @"Vinceman.4572" said:

> > > 99% of all raid groups aren't stacking necros at VG, Sabetha and Desmina. For Dhuum CM it's a strategy but it requires more than just mass necros to overcome that fight. I doubt that it has to be nerfed only because it was "meta" when executed properly in the tournament.

> >

> > It was already OP before

> Yeah. So OP almost noone actually does it. I guess majority of raiders just prefer making things harder for themselves for no reason.

>

>

Just because not many people do it (proof needed) does not mean it should stay as it is. I guess you are just not used to groups where people do relog to optimal classes for each boss. Possibly because weaver/holo/dh is good enough to beat the bosses and people are too lazy (understandable) to equip an additional class for a few bosses where epi bounce is optimal. Either way "hardly anyone does it" is not a compelling reason to not rebalance it.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding to push dps higher? That's because of ONE skill

> >

> > In a team environment i see nothing wrong with this. They have to work together to achieve said results, meanwhile a single ele by themselves can benchmark on par with them.

> >

> > Begs the question why 1 class is allowed to equal 2.

> > But i'm sure someone will point out that ele hits that with chrono/druid/warrior providing buffs. But for the sake of simplifying i removed the common factors.

>

> That is it. Weaver's are self sufficient .. in a group you can take any other profession there's no restriction to hv all Weaver's. It's balance.

> In epi group. You need every dps person to go scourge. THTs not balance disregard how u want to play it. If you don't see what I see .. ah.

 

Are you reading what you write ?

 

If i have to sacrifice all available DPS slots to get this result then it is balanced. We are trading out being "Self Sufficient" for "Teamwork".

If even 1 person in said team of Scourges messes up the potential goes down for the entire group in a much more significant manner than if 1 individual ele messes up.

 

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > > It is not ok .. I don't know why ppl think it's ok. group wise and classes should somehow be balanced to some equal level. Scourge itself is a cool class.. but when epi is used .. ppl maximise group performance not by adding another class but another scrounge if we hv 5 additional slot in party guess what they will be adding to push dps higher? That's because of ONE skill

> > >

> > > In a team environment i see nothing wrong with this. They have to work together to achieve said results, meanwhile a single ele by themselves can benchmark on par with them.

> > >

> > > Begs the question why 1 class is allowed to equal 2.

> > > But i'm sure someone will point out that ele hits that with chrono/druid/warrior providing buffs. But for the sake of simplifying i removed the common factors.

> >

> > That is it. Weaver's are self sufficient .. in a group you can take any other profession there's no restriction to hv all Weaver's. It's balance.

> > In epi group. You need every dps person to go scourge. THTs not balance disregard how u want to play it. If you don't see what I see .. ah.

>

> Are you reading what you write ?

>

> If i have to sacrifice all available DPS slots to get this result then it is balanced. We are trading out being "Self Sufficient" for "Teamwork".

> If even 1 person in said team of Scourges messes up the potential goes down for the entire group in a much more significant manner than if 1 individual ele messes up.

>

>

 

A normal group.. ppl can go Weavers dh fb holo etc. It's ok to accept not all Weavers.

A group epi run no other class is accepted other than if u hv EPI

Btw I hv written enough here :) now leaving it to the others to comment.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> A normal group.. ppl can go Weavers dh fb holo etc. It's ok to accept not all Weavers.

> A group epi run no other class is accepted other than if u hv EPI

 

That has nothing to do with balance but personnel selection. You could take a Engineer for PPD and increase the effectiveness of those scourges. It's a choice that is predicated around the encounter.

 

To highlight this, why is necro only a solution to specific fights that quite typically have adds with large enough healthpools to bounce. Yet when you do that on Single Bosses it becomes a non-issue again ?

[Sephylon.4938]

>A normal group.. ppl can go Weavers dh fb holo etc. It's ok to accept not all Weavers.

>A group epi run no other class is accepted other than if u hv EPI

>Btw I hv written enough here :) now leaving it to the others to comment.

 

And that's the group that they want to make and they should be free to do so. Why does it affect you that they want to play that way? Are you being forced to join them?

 

I'm sick of having to give up good things for necro to get subpar things in return (both the shroud nerf and shades nerf did not result in us getting any better dps). Anet taking away epi from necro will just result in a 10% axe damage buff at best.

[Oglaf.1074]

> @"Conqueror.3682" said:

> So, you dont want necros in raids.

 

This. It is literally Necros’ last collective lifeline as a class to ever be allowed in Raids.

 

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> >A normal group.. ppl can go Weavers dh fb holo etc. It's ok to accept not all Weavers.

> >A group epi run no other class is accepted other than if u hv EPI

> >Btw I hv written enough here :) now leaving it to the others to comment.

>

> And that's the group that they want to make and they should be free to do so. Why does it affect you that they want to play that way? Are you being forced to join them?

>

> I'm sick of having to give up good things for necro to get subpar things in return (both the shroud nerf and shades nerf did not result in us getting any better dps). Anet taking away epi from necro will just result in a 10% axe damage buff at best.

 

It doesn't affect me. It's the game ppl fight for class balance. A group full of necro rely on only one skill .. one person call everyone else press. I find that really .. idk the word.

 

Henry had it spot on.. .. not nerfing the entire class but change/nerf epi.. and buff up other necro skills.. so the class can shine properly. So we see team with mix of necro ele guard thief eng etc. Not full team if necro full team of guard etc. For the fun yes that's ok..But having it called world record .. its proven flaws in the equation.. I hope the skill balance team will review this.

 

[Talindra.4958]

> @"Oglaf.1074" said:

> > @"Conqueror.3682" said:

> > So, you dont want necros in raids.

>

> This. It is literally Necros’ last collective lifeline as a class to ever be allowed in Raids.

>

>

 

That is why. Epi isn't a fix to necro .. they should look into other ways to bring out profession better not by executing only one skill.

If this is ok. So they should do one skill for each prof that has equal outcome. Instead of seeing full team of necro doing world record relying on one skill. We see full team of each prof. But that is not good. The game should aim for a balance mix of prof.. i believe that's how good rpg works

 

[DeadlySynz.3471]

Is this complaining going on because people are being out-dps'd by 1 niche skill? I thought it'd be welcome in raids to beat the content as quick as possible. I'm really scratching my head over this one so it must be people are salty by being out-dps'd.

[crepuscular.9047]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > It was already OP before

> Yeah. So OP almost noone actually does it. I guess majority of raiders just prefer making things harder for themselves for no reason.

>

 

they can always go in naked to make it harder for themselves without dev making any changes ;)