Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

 

Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

 

Ele is still a really strong class.

 

>@"SidewayS.3789 " said:

>epi deserved to be nerfed,but they didn't put anything to balance it,so the necro is out of high end content (raids and fractals)

 

Epi totally deserved to be nerfed and Scourge still has the potential to at least stay meta on VG.

I am happy with the epi nerf. I dont like that necro didnt get anything to compensate.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

>

> Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

> Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

>

> Ele is still a really strong class.

 

Consider the average efficiency of the players though. Ele is still a strong class, when played by an expert player. The average pug ele is trash. This is bound to affect the class viability in pugs. Look at what happened with condi engi back then. They even were top dps on small hitbox and still nobody actually wanted them.

[steki.1478]

Considering that epi was nerfed, can we just let this cancer thread rip in pepperoni? SeemsGood

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Consider the average efficiency of the players though. Ele is still a strong class, when played by an expert player. The average pug ele is trash. This is bound to affect the >class viability in pugs. Look at what happened with condi engi back then. They even were top dps on small hitbox and still nobody actually wanted them.

 

The average pug is trash. Doesnt matter what he plays.

Weaver offers really good cleave with pretty good DPS. Take Sloth or KC for example. You will still see weavers on those fights.

 

You cant compare condi engi with weaver. The weaver rotation is not that hard and a lot more people are using DPS Meters. You will be fine in pugs. Literally everything works there.

[Feanor.2358]

My point is, I'd prefer a trash player on an easy build rather than on a complex one. They'll perform better.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

> >

> > Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

> > Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

> >

> > Ele is still a really strong class.

>

> Consider the average efficiency of the players though. Ele is still a strong class, when played by an expert player. The average pug ele is trash. This is bound to affect the class viability in pugs. Look at what happened with condi engi back then. They even were top dps on small hitbox and still nobody actually wanted them.

 

Are you seriously arguing for balance around what pugs can do? If you balance around pugs, then the players who play the most and actually learn a class will inevitably have no options if they want to be efficient as they will all funnel to the most difficult but highest dps class, meanwhile pugs will have options between easy builds and hard builds. That is messed up. The players who put in time to learn rotations should be the players who have options.

 

If a player can learn to hit 35k on weaver at max, and also 35k on necro at max, that player actually has options. But if that player can learn to hit 35k on ele, and 29k on necro (actually lower for power necro), there isn't really much of a choice. Players who are good tend to run dps meters, and its really fun for a static to compete with each other for the top dps slot. Well players like that don't really have options if they want to join in the fun. I have no problem with weaver being top tier dps, at least in terms of total cleave damage, and I believe weaver was nerfed too hard (in comparison to dead eye buffs). But currently, necro is near 30% under dead eye.

 

I think 10% variation among output is still a bit much, but if you consider things like condi ramp up time, cleave damage, and whether or not a class can be stacked (condi dare devil and condi ele can not be stacked which was great when they were good), I think 10% difference in output could be workable. But 30%? That's a joke.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > Epi got nerfed.

> > > > > > So did weaver. It's just that weaver still has a lot of things to be nerfed in the future, while necro was way overnerfed already.

> > > > >

> > > > > So was weaver actually. Yeah, it had highest potential. It was needed to make it worthwhile. Now it's just not worth it for the vast majority of the players.

> > > > It's still worth it for more players than necro.

> > >

> > > I'll take a pug necro over a pug ele any time when I need the cleave.

> > Pretty unlikely. The dps loss you'd get by taking a necro is now really massive compared to other options. You might take a really good necro over a pug weaver, but a pug necro won't be worth it. The base damage will be too low. And the epi usage won't be all that stellar either.

>

> I don't care about the dps loss from the necro - all I need them for is their Epidemic. It is no longer useful to bounce it, but it can still clear. Furthermore, the dps loss from taking a pug ele can be even bigger. I've seen pug eles deal literally half of my damage. So I'd phrase that the other way - I'd take a good weaver over a pug necro, but how do I know he's good?

You won't. You won't know that for necro either, so you will likely take, for example, guardian, that will happily outperform necro regardless of skill level.

And by the way, necro can't really clear if you're in primarily power group setup - on its own, it doesn't create enough conditions to make epi cleave worthwhile. The only thing that made scourges worthwhile was stacking them, but that was only reasonable due to the added dps from epi bouncing, which is now gone.

 

Remember, that until the stacked scourges epi bounce strategy was realized, noone was taking scourges (or any other necro specs) for cleave. They weren't worth it. And now not only epi works worse, but their dps also got nerfed.

 

[Nephalem.8921]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

>

> Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

> Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

>

> Ele is still a really strong class.

>

> >@"SidewayS.3789 " said:

> >epi deserved to be nerfed,but they didn't put anything to balance it,so the necro is out of high end content (raids and fractals)

>

> Epi totally deserved to be nerfed and Scourge still has the potential to at least stay meta on VG.

> I am happy with the epi nerf. I dont like that necro didnt get anything to compensate.

 

That 33k dps is also Holo dps. On big and small hitbox. Where are the Holo buff cries because 33k is too low apparently?

Renegade is also condi and most of the big hitbox bosses are power focused. Exceptions are dhuum and Gorse.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Nephalem.8921" said:

> That 33k dps is also Holo dps. On big and small hitbox. Where are the Holo buff cries because 33k is too low apparently?

> Renegade is also condi and most of the big hitbox bosses are power focused. Exceptions are dhuum and Gorse.

 

Where exactly did i say that 33k is too low? Just because i dont consider it as above average its not too low.

Holo actually needed a small buff pre Balance Patch. It got slowly outclassed by other classes. After the balancepatch being mostly unscathed is a really good thing and might be enough to make it meta on more than 2 bosses again. Time will tell.

 

Not disagreeing on the Renegade part. Just saying that right now its a really good DPS class. Benchmarks ≠ Raids tho.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

> > >

> > > Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

> > > Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

> > >

> > > Ele is still a really strong class.

> >

> > Consider the average efficiency of the players though. Ele is still a strong class, when played by an expert player. The average pug ele is trash. This is bound to affect the class viability in pugs. Look at what happened with condi engi back then. They even were top dps on small hitbox and still nobody actually wanted them.

>

> Are you seriously arguing for balance around what pugs can do? If you balance around pugs, then the players who play the most and actually learn a class will inevitably have no options if they want to be efficient as they will all funnel to the most difficult but highest dps class, meanwhile pugs will have options between easy builds and hard builds. That is messed up. The players who put in time to learn rotations should be the players who have options.

 

Except they don't anyway. They go with the optimal choice - which always exists for any given encounter - regardless. It's just what they do. Not to mention they are a small minority. Of course it makes more sense to give the rest some actual, *meaningful* choice.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > > > > Epi got nerfed.

> > > > > > > So did weaver. It's just that weaver still has a lot of things to be nerfed in the future, while necro was way overnerfed already.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > So was weaver actually. Yeah, it had highest potential. It was needed to make it worthwhile. Now it's just not worth it for the vast majority of the players.

> > > > > It's still worth it for more players than necro.

> > > >

> > > > I'll take a pug necro over a pug ele any time when I need the cleave.

> > > Pretty unlikely. The dps loss you'd get by taking a necro is now really massive compared to other options. You might take a really good necro over a pug weaver, but a pug necro won't be worth it. The base damage will be too low. And the epi usage won't be all that stellar either.

> >

> > I don't care about the dps loss from the necro - all I need them for is their Epidemic. It is no longer useful to bounce it, but it can still clear. Furthermore, the dps loss from taking a pug ele can be even bigger. I've seen pug eles deal literally half of my damage. So I'd phrase that the other way - I'd take a good weaver over a pug necro, but how do I know he's good?

> You won't. You won't know that for necro either, so you will likely take, for example, guardian, that will happily outperform necro regardless of skill level.

> And by the way, necro can't really clear if you're in primarily power group setup - on its own, it doesn't create enough conditions to make epi cleave worthwhile. The only thing that made scourges worthwhile was stacking them, but that was only reasonable due to the added dps from epi bouncing, which is now gone.

>

> Remember, that until the stacked scourges epi bounce strategy was realized, noone was taking scourges (or any other necro specs) for cleave. They weren't worth it. And now not only epi works worse, but their dps also got nerfed.

>

 

Well, pick a mirage to generate condis. It's a solid, reliable build with pretty high damage output. And low cleave. OK, I gotta admit we already have 1 or 2 mirages in our group so epidemic just works for us. But I'm still wary every time we get a pug ele.

[DragonFury.6243]

OK all necromancers @"Feanor.2358" will carry you through raids just take your epi and that is it you can PM him in game to form more details .

 

[Feanor.2358]

I've carried my fair share. LFG seems to work.

 

However, I should point out requests for further carry will be better targeted at the thieves out there.

[Henry.5713]

Please, carry me.

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > > > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > > And, again, ele is still above average in its dps and can probably survive years of "balancing" until they reach current necro levels.

> > > >

> > > > Ele probably gets 37k to 38k on huge hitbox which is on par with renegade without allies.

> > > > Id guess 33k on Small hitboxes which i wouldnt consider above average.

> > > >

> > > > Ele is still a really strong class.

> > >

> > > Consider the average efficiency of the players though. Ele is still a strong class, when played by an expert player. The average pug ele is trash. This is bound to affect the class viability in pugs. Look at what happened with condi engi back then. They even were top dps on small hitbox and still nobody actually wanted them.

> >

> > Are you seriously arguing for balance around what pugs can do? If you balance around pugs, then the players who play the most and actually learn a class will inevitably have no options if they want to be efficient as they will all funnel to the most difficult but highest dps class, meanwhile pugs will have options between easy builds and hard builds. That is messed up. The players who put in time to learn rotations should be the players who have options.

>

> Except they don't anyway. They go with the optimal choice - which always exists for any given encounter - regardless. It's just what they do. Not to mention they are a small minority. Of course it makes more sense to give the rest some actual, *meaningful* choice.

 

Please reread the post. I expressed the same statement you did. But, if we get rid of the optimal choice, then the good players can choose to play the class they enjoy.

 

As for meaningful choice for the other players. Something tells me that if speed run groups through the years who posted videos of world records, had been more diverse, then pugs would have been more welcoming of all classes.

 

Bad players might very well do better on a necro than an ele, but because the top players can do more with ele, the bad players try to do that too. If you balance it so that all classes have approximately the same skill ceiling, then the top players will play the class they like, and the effect will move through the entire community.

[Feanor.2358]

The good players can always choose to play the class they enjoy. Because they're good enough and the differences - even considerable ones - don't really matter, except for setting records.

[Sephylon.4938]

so then why ask for epi to be nerfed?

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> so then why ask for epi to be nerfed?

 

Because it was leaving no choice for all the others.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > so then why ask for epi to be nerfed?

>

> Because it was leaving no choice for all the others.

 

how was it leaving no choice, and who was it leaving no choice to?

[Wildfang.3271]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > > so then why ask for epi to be nerfed?

> >

> > Because it was leaving no choice for all the others.

>

> how was it leaving no choice, and who was it leaving no choice to?

 

Yah, I would like to know that as well. I don't really see ppl asking for scourges in LFGs unless it is SH. May be a different story if you are in a static though.

 

[thrag.9740]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> The good players can always choose to play the class they enjoy. Because they're good enough and the differences - even considerable ones - don't really matter, except for setting records.

 

Absolute rubbish. People in statics love to compete with each other for top dps slots. Its simply no fun being the 29k condi scourge in a party with a 40k dead eye. Even if the kill is smooth and fast, its not fun to feel like your the weak link in your group.

 

Its just amazing to me. Scourge is 30% under meta builds, and that doesn't matter? Get your head out of the clouds bro.

[Raizel.8175]

> @"thrag.9740" said:

> [...], its not fun to feel like your the weak link in your group.

 

This.

 

 

[Dadnir.5038]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > [...], its not fun to feel like your the weak link in your group.

>

> This.

>

>

 

That sum up the whole argument between elementalists and necromancers:

 

Pre-patch:

Elementalist: "Get rid of epidemic! please!"

Necromancer: "How can we be taken in raid without epidemic?"

Elementalist: "You're strong enough without it."

Necromancer: "But we are worth nothing without it, even before the gimmick ended up exploited we were only taken for add clearing with epidemic."

Elementalist: "Get over it, it's an exploit it need to go! Even without it you'll still be good at clearing trash."

Necromancer: "But that won't get us a spot in raid."

Elementalist: "It's to strong it need to be removed from the game."

 

Post-patch:

Necromancer: "So it's here, no more epidemic and no more raid for necromancer."

Elementalist: "You're lucky you're still strong for clearing trash, look at us we've been nerfed to the ground."

Necromancer: "you're still competitive thought."

Elementalist: "Thief is better than us, it's unfair, we got nothing to rely on to compete against them."

Necromancer: "wasn't this our argument for keeping epidemic..."

Elementalist: "Shut up! Even if your dps is trash tier you're sturdier and simpler than an elementalist, we deserve to deal more damage than anyone else."

Necromancer: "What?"

Elementalist: "Listen! We deserve to be god tier dps in PvE, this is the only thing we can do there!"

Necromancer: "Wasn't epidemic the only thing we could do as necromancer?"

Elementalist: "You don't understand, now that we aren't top dps anymore, even a necromancer have more value than an elementalist."

Necromancer: "You're still in the top tier for DPS, though..."

Elementalist: "How can you not understand that the elementalist is hundred time more complex to play and more fragile than all other professions and thus need to be THE top dps in PvE."

Necromancer: "So it's ok for us to lose our only ticket for raid but it's not ok for elementalist to be slightly less competitive in dps..."

Elementalist: "Exactly!"

[Xantaria.8726]

> @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > [...], its not fun to feel like your the weak link in your group.

> >

> > This.

> >

> >

>

> That sum up the whole argument between elementalists and necromancers:

>

> Pre-patch:

> Elementalist: "Get rid of epidemic! please!"

> Necromancer: "How can we be taken in raid without epidemic?"

> Elementalist: "You're strong enough without it."

> Necromancer: "But we are worth nothing without it, even before the gimmick ended up exploited we were only taken for add clearing with epidemic."

> Elementalist: "Get over it, it's an exploit it need to go! Even without it you'll still be good at clearing trash."

> Necromancer: "But that won't get us a spot in raid."

> Elementalist: "It's to strong it need to be removed from the game."

>

> Post-patch:

> Necromancer: "So it's here, no more epidemic and no more raid for necromancer."

> Elementalist: "You're lucky you're still strong for clearing trash, look at us we've been nerfed to the ground."

> Necromancer: "you're still competitive thought."

> Elementalist: "Thief is better than us, it's unfair, we got nothing to rely on to compete against them."

> Necromancer: "wasn't this our argument for keeping epidemic..."

> Elementalist: "Shut up! Even if your dps is trash tier you're sturdier and simpler than an elementalist, we deserve to deal more damage than anyone else."

> Necromancer: "What?"

> Elementalist: "Listen! We deserve to be god tier dps in PvE, this is the only thing we can do there!"

> Necromancer: "Wasn't epidemic the only thing we could do as necromancer?"

> Elementalist: "You don't understand, now that we aren't top dps anymore, even a necromancer have more value than an elementalist."

> Necromancer: "You're still in the top tier for DPS, though..."

> Elementalist: "How can you not understand that the elementalist is hundred time more complex to play and more fragile than all other professions and thus need to be THE top dps in PvE."

> Necromancer: "So it's ok for us to lose our only ticket for raid but it's not ok for elementalist to be slightly less competitive in dps..."

> Elementalist: "Exactly!"

 

Sure, put others words in their mouths....

Many who complained about epi being op als said that with a epi nerf their shoulf come a scourge/necro buff/rework cause otherwise they will loose their place in raids.

The arguments against elenerfs are the very same. Why should one even play ele now if i can now play a de or mirage which have muxh safer and easier rotations while providing support or cc?

This whole balancepatch is just crap, it nerfed working builds instead of buffing those which dont work or changed them so that they are no longer worth playing.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> > @"Dadnir.5038" said:

> > > @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > > > @"thrag.9740" said:

> > > > [...], its not fun to feel like your the weak link in your group.

> > >

> > > This.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > That sum up the whole argument between elementalists and necromancers:

> >

> > Pre-patch:

> > Elementalist: "Get rid of epidemic! please!"

> > Necromancer: "How can we be taken in raid without epidemic?"

> > Elementalist: "You're strong enough without it."

> > Necromancer: "But we are worth nothing without it, even before the gimmick ended up exploited we were only taken for add clearing with epidemic."

> > Elementalist: "Get over it, it's an exploit it need to go! Even without it you'll still be good at clearing trash."

> > Necromancer: "But that won't get us a spot in raid."

> > Elementalist: "It's to strong it need to be removed from the game."

> >

> > Post-patch:

> > Necromancer: "So it's here, no more epidemic and no more raid for necromancer."

> > Elementalist: "You're lucky you're still strong for clearing trash, look at us we've been nerfed to the ground."

> > Necromancer: "you're still competitive thought."

> > Elementalist: "Thief is better than us, it's unfair, we got nothing to rely on to compete against them."

> > Necromancer: "wasn't this our argument for keeping epidemic..."

> > Elementalist: "Shut up! Even if your dps is trash tier you're sturdier and simpler than an elementalist, we deserve to deal more damage than anyone else."

> > Necromancer: "What?"

> > Elementalist: "Listen! We deserve to be god tier dps in PvE, this is the only thing we can do there!"

> > Necromancer: "Wasn't epidemic the only thing we could do as necromancer?"

> > Elementalist: "You don't understand, now that we aren't top dps anymore, even a necromancer have more value than an elementalist."

> > Necromancer: "You're still in the top tier for DPS, though..."

> > Elementalist: "How can you not understand that the elementalist is hundred time more complex to play and more fragile than all other professions and thus need to be THE top dps in PvE."

> > Necromancer: "So it's ok for us to lose our only ticket for raid but it's not ok for elementalist to be slightly less competitive in dps..."

> > Elementalist: "Exactly!"

>

> Sure, put others words in their mouths....

> Many who complained about epi being op als said that with a epi nerf their shoulf come a scourge/necro buff/rework cause otherwise they will loose their place in raids.

> The arguments against elenerfs are the very same. Why should one even play ele now if i can now play a de or mirage which have muxh safer and easier rotations while providing support or cc?

> This whole balancepatch is just crap, it nerfed working builds instead of buffing those which dont work or changed them so that they are no longer worth playing.

 

What are you doing here, making sense all of a sudden? I called for epi *bounce* nerf because the shit was broken, clearly I'm evil and selfish and only care about being top dps at all costs. It doesn't matter that I actually supported necromancers getting buffed to offset the loss. It doesn't matter that I've said post-patch necromancers ended up underpowered in pve. I'm an evil epi-hater, I could not have said all this.