Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[sigur.9453]

> @"DeadlySynz.3471" said:

> Is this complaining going on because people are being out-dps'd by 1 niche skill? I thought it'd be welcome in raids to beat the content as quick as possible. I'm really scratching my head over this one so it must be people are salty by being out-dps'd.

 

I dont think its about getting out dps´d, since op stated he doesn´t play dps classes.

it´s more a valid concern that a class is balanced around one single skill, which if you look at it on a bigger scale limits the class itself.

(just look at the amount of "why anet hates necro so much" treaths popping up after every balance patch)

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> https://gw2raidar.com/global_stats/ are also a good place to see how scourge overperforms at bosses where epi bounce is doable

>

> Example: 100th percentile dmg taken from that page from Soulless Horror:

> Scourge 37076

> Mirage 30310

> Spellbreaker 28222

> Weaver 27964

>

> So Scourge overperforms by over 7k dps compared to the 2nd best dps on that boss lol and almost 10k more than flawlessly played weavers.

 

This is fine, honestly. Considering Mirages outperform the rest by a similar margin on Cairn and Weavers - on KC. It actually promotes using different dps specs based on the encounter you play, which is a good thing. The bad thing is the way epi shoves necro it that specific niche. Epi just has too high potential, leaving the class lacking power when it is not available. But then again, one should also consider WvW where Scourge reigns supreme. So even if epi got completely removed, I don't think necro can get a lot of damage buffs. In theory you could balance a lower damage output with utility, but then you face the other offender, the chrono. While their boon output remains over 9000, there's no real reason to trade dps for any kind of utility in a dps slot. So the problem isn't simple.

 

I'm inclined to say the current situation is OK *for now*, assuming ANet plan to release a new x-pac in the near future. It's a niche, but it's something. With ERP bringing the attention to epi bounce again, I expect to see it become more popular, and by extension - the Scourge to get more use in raids in the upcoming months. I understand this is not ideal for the necro mains out there, but it is probably the realistic scenario. The balance will be shaken again when new elite specs come, so if I were in ANet's shoes, I'd postpone any potential changes to Epi until then.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

Okay, epi mechanic is stupid and I agree it's not reasonable to make whole profession performance bound to single skill.

 

However, simple "nerf epi reeee" is not the solution. Necromancer needs in depth changes to provide more than viable damage and/or support build(s) to be meta or close to meta choice.

 

So, since OP started this discussion, I would like to see how do you suggest to balance necromancer considering changes to epidemic (and what changes should be made) so we have some substance to discuss. At this point throwing empty statements is useless.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

Warrior performance is based is based on baners too

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> It doesn't affect me. It's the game ppl fight for class balance. A group full of necro rely on only one skill

If they rely on only that skill, they do next to no damage, because epidemic itself requires conditions from other sources to work properly, and it's effectiveness is directly related to amount of those conditions. A bunch of necros just spamming epi (but being terrible at everything else) will not have even close to the damage you speak of and might in fact get outdps-ed by a single good weaver.

 

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > It doesn't affect me. It's the game ppl fight for class balance. A group full of necro rely on only one skill

> If they rely on only that skill, they do next to no damage, because epidemic itself requires conditions from other sources to work properly, and it's effectiveness is directly related to amount of those conditions. A bunch of necros just spamming epi (but being terrible at everything else) will not have even close to the damage you speak of and might in fact get outdps-ed by a single good weaver.

>

>

 

Fair enough, but if you look on this numbers:

 

https://www.gw2raidar.com/encounter/AccessedAbortionsConsentColourSustains

 

If we assume that al participants are on a same-ish skill level, Its quite a difference what the use of one single skill makes (i guess the lowest dps necro was epi-ing the boss here)

PS:

Im not sure if the Link with Names is allowed, feel free to inform me, that i can delete it. (if it even works)

[Turin.6921]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Warrior performance is based is based on baners too

 

Not really..It has a great power DPS build on spellbreaker and a really good condi DPS build on berserker.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> PS:

> Im not sure if the Link with Names is allowed, feel free to inform me, that i can delete it. (if it even works)

 

Anet considers combat data as public so no need to be afraid.

 

 

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"Turin.6921" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Warrior performance is based is based on baners too

>

> Not really..It has a great power DPS build on spellbreaker and a really good condi DPS build on berserker.

 

Still behind some other dps classes. Same what would happen to necro with epi change

[Turin.6921]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > @"Turin.6921" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Warrior performance is based is based on baners too

> >

> > Not really..It has a great power DPS build on spellbreaker and a really good condi DPS build on berserker.

>

> Still behind some other dps classes. Same what would happen to necro with epi change

 

This does not make them non-competitive. Both have very competitive DPS. 4th and 5th DPS best on small hit box (granted slb is a bit a strange case and the real fight would be less but still absolutely fine) and condi zerk is second best on large hit box. These are really competitive numbers. Both builds would survive fine even if banners were not a thing.

[Susy.7529]

Yeah, why not OP, such a great idea you got, let's kill necros for good again. -.-'

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> If we assume that al participants are on a same-ish skill level, Its quite a difference what the use of one single skill makes (i guess the lowest dps necro was epi-ing the boss here)

99th necro percentile on that boss is 36k (boss damage, not all damage). 3 of those people are 5k above it. You can bet they aren't your average players.

Additionally, if you check the 90% percentile, you will see that necro is much lower than that (26k boss damage), which is equal to 2 other dps options and within 2k of another 5 (counting builds, not classes here). On 50th percentile Necro is actually at the bottom of the pack.

Notice also that this encounter seems to favour condi builds, which also impacts the results.

 

All that shows the "op" damage is a result of way more than "one single skill use".

 

[sigur.9453]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > If we assume that al participants are on a same-ish skill level, Its quite a difference what the use of one single skill makes (i guess the lowest dps necro was epi-ing the boss here)

> 99th necro percentile on that boss is 36k (boss damage, not all damage). 3 of those people are 5k above it. You can bet they aren't your average players.

> Additionally, if you check the 90% percentile, you will see that necro is much lower than that (26k boss damage), which is equal to 2 other dps options and within 2k of another 5 (counting builds, not classes here). On 50th percentile Necro is actually at the bottom of the pack.

> Notice also that this encounter seems to favour condi builds, which also impacts the results.

>

> All that shows the "op" damage is a result of way more than "one single skill use".

>

 

You missed my point.

Assuming that all the necros in this grp are on a same skill level, the only difference is actually "pressing one button". (or in this case bouncing)

Even if you look at SC´s "numbers to aim for.

Scourge : 22k

Scourge with Bouncing : 35k

Same build, same rota. So how is this skill not broken? (i don´t mind actually)

 

And since we are talking balance here, the only data that matters is the 100 percentile.

Also, you cant really translate the 50/90th data correctly, since the most grps only run 1 scourge and decreases the average dps. (by a lot)

[Laila Lightness.8742]

So you too nerf.the 1 skill wich makes necro usefull in raids

[mtpelion.4562]

You can have my Epidemic right after the rest of the DPS builds get nerfed down to Necro DPS levels.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> You can have my Epidemic right after the rest of the DPS builds get nerfed down to Necro DPS levels.

 

That would be healthy solution, considering how trivialized end game content is by current balance.

[Sublimatio.6981]

> @"derd.6413" said:

> and then epibouncing (something the requires 2 necros with similar builds to coordinate and doesn't work everywhere) has the same damage as 2 good eles. i'll wait for anet to give nero a build that isn't as situational and is viable before they nerf epi into the ground.

 

been waiting for 6 years, not gonna happen

[Mini Crinny.6190]

Having 1 decent skill on a class is not good for Necro, the problem is if anet were to nerf epi then it would take 3 months maybe more to get Necro up there with the other DPS classes because anet nerf the main damage skills then slowly buff random skills for the sake of buffing

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > If we assume that al participants are on a same-ish skill level, Its quite a difference what the use of one single skill makes (i guess the lowest dps necro was epi-ing the boss here)

> > 99th necro percentile on that boss is 36k (boss damage, not all damage). 3 of those people are 5k above it. You can bet they aren't your average players.

> > Additionally, if you check the 90% percentile, you will see that necro is much lower than that (26k boss damage), which is equal to 2 other dps options and within 2k of another 5 (counting builds, not classes here). On 50th percentile Necro is actually at the bottom of the pack.

> > Notice also that this encounter seems to favour condi builds, which also impacts the results.

> >

> > All that shows the "op" damage is a result of way more than "one single skill use".

> >

>

> You missed my point.

> Assuming that all the necros in this grp are on a same skill level, the only difference is actually "pressing one button". (or in this case bouncing)

> Even if you look at SC´s "numbers to aim for.

> Scourge : 22k

> Scourge with Bouncing : 35k

> Same build, same rota. So how is this skill not broken? (i don´t mind actually)

>

> And since we are talking balance here, the only data that matters is the 100 percentile.

> Also, you cant really translate the 50/90th data correctly, since the most grps only run 1 scourge and decreases the average dps. (by a lot)

 

So they didn't have to press heal>f1>trail>f1>f5>3>2>5>4, or weapon swap off cd, or do an auto chain, they just presses epi. Wow I've been doing necro wrong.

[Anchoku.8142]

Why not make bosses and adds capable of reflecting projectiles and switch aggro to the highest dps or outgoing heals?

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Why not make bosses and adds capable of reflecting projectiles and switch aggro to the highest dps or outgoing heals?

 

I can only imagine weavers killing themselves with their own fireballs if bosses used reflections. About aggro, this game has no consistent aggro mechanic and it varies between bosses. If you made aggro based on dps game wide you would break raid encounters, especially those where boss positioning is important.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Anchoku.8142" said:

> Why not make bosses and adds capable of reflecting projectiles and switch aggro to the highest dps or outgoing heals?

 

Because that wont satiate the thirst to nerf necro.

Encounter design is the best way to address problems and this shows seeing as necro is really only used on about 4 bosses in an optimal way.

[Malediktus.9250]

> @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> You can have my Epidemic right after the rest of the DPS builds get nerfed down to Necro DPS levels.

 

Would be fine to me, I always thought DPS is too high across the board. Nerfing everything by 50% would be perfect since DPS makes encounters easier since mechanics happen less often or not at all.

[sigur.9453]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"sigur.9453" said:

> > > > If we assume that al participants are on a same-ish skill level, Its quite a difference what the use of one single skill makes (i guess the lowest dps necro was epi-ing the boss here)

> > > 99th necro percentile on that boss is 36k (boss damage, not all damage). 3 of those people are 5k above it. You can bet they aren't your average players.

> > > Additionally, if you check the 90% percentile, you will see that necro is much lower than that (26k boss damage), which is equal to 2 other dps options and within 2k of another 5 (counting builds, not classes here). On 50th percentile Necro is actually at the bottom of the pack.

> > > Notice also that this encounter seems to favour condi builds, which also impacts the results.

> > >

> > > All that shows the "op" damage is a result of way more than "one single skill use".

> > >

> >

> > You missed my point.

> > Assuming that all the necros in this grp are on a same skill level, the only difference is actually "pressing one button". (or in this case bouncing)

> > Even if you look at SC´s "numbers to aim for.

> > Scourge : 22k

> > Scourge with Bouncing : 35k

> > **Same build, same rota. So how is this skill not broken?** (i don´t mind actually)

> >

> > And since we are talking balance here, the only data that matters is the 100 percentile.

> > Also, you cant really translate the 50/90th data correctly, since the most grps only run 1 scourge and decreases the average dps. (by a lot)

>

> So they didn't have to press heal>f1>trail>f1>f5>3>2>5>4, or weapon swap off cd, or do an auto chain, they just presses epi. Wow I've been doing necro wrong.

 

read again please.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Malediktus.9250" said:

> > @"mtpelion.4562" said:

> > You can have my Epidemic right after the rest of the DPS builds get nerfed down to Necro DPS levels.

>

> Would be fine to me, I always thought DPS is too high across the board. Nerfing everything by 50% would be perfect since DPS makes encounters easier since mechanics happen less often or not at all.

 

There also should be hard triggers for raid mechanics making sure that things like no updraft gorseval can't happen.