How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> These are good ideas.

>

> I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap.

>

> * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong)

> * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be.

> * 9 - 10 - Set at 100%

>

> This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers.

 

And starting at 10 players like world bosses. Raids are group content, not solo content.

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> ...

 

The problem with green as an example is: Most groups already just ignore green and heal through it.

Most mechanics can already be reduced or ignored outside of Wing 5.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> The problem with green as an example is: Most groups already just ignore green and heal through it.

 

Yes, but most groups in the current raids are working at a higher level of experience, precision, gear, and team-comp than should be expected of easy mode players. Just because a current meta raid group can accomplish something does not mean that gameplay changes are not needed to open up those same results to a more casual audience. The point of an easy mode is not to make things more casual for existing raiders, it's to democratize the result of the existing raiders to the masses.

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > These are good ideas.

> >

> > I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap.

> >

> > * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong)

> > * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be.

> > * 9 - 10 - Set at 100%

> >

> > This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers.

>

> And starting at 10 players like world bosses. Raids are group content, not solo content.

 

No. Starting at 1.

 

Unless you want to equate Raids to World Bosses, and we can have Teq, Shatter and Jormag drop Li's from now on, and have their own Legendary Armor Collections.

 

Which you know.. would be the ideal solution here. Or you can refrain with the snarky negativity and let us discuss the topic at hand like mature civil folk.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > The problem with green as an example is: Most groups already just ignore green and heal through it.

>

> Yes, but most groups in the current raids are working at a higher level of experience, precision, gear, and team-comp than should be expected of easy mode players. Just because a current meta raid group can accomplish something does not mean that gameplay changes are not needed to open up those same results to a more casual audience. The point of an easy mode is not to make things more casual for existing raiders, it's to democratize the result of the existing raiders to the masses.

>

 

All you have to do as a DPS is do dodge the teleport field. Everything else do the supporter for you. Not that hard.

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > These are good ideas.

> > >

> > > I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap.

> > >

> > > * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong)

> > > * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be.

> > > * 9 - 10 - Set at 100%

> > >

> > > This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers.

> >

> > And starting at 10 players like world bosses. Raids are group content, not solo content.

>

> No. Starting at 1.

>

> Unless you want to equate Raids to World Bosses, and we can have Teq, Shatter and Jormag drop Li's from now on, and have their own Legendary Armor Collections.

>

> Which you know.. would be the ideal solution here. Or you can refrain with the snarky negativity and let us discuss the topic at hand like mature civil folk.

 

So we need also a solo version of fractals and dungeons and every open world encounter?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > These are good ideas.

> > > >

> > > > I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap.

> > > >

> > > > * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong)

> > > > * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be.

> > > > * 9 - 10 - Set at 100%

> > > >

> > > > This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers.

> > >

> > > And starting at 10 players like world bosses. Raids are group content, not solo content.

> >

> > No. Starting at 1.

> >

> > Unless you want to equate Raids to World Bosses, and we can have Teq, Shatter and Jormag drop Li's from now on, and have their own Legendary Armor Collections.

> >

> > Which you know.. would be the ideal solution here. Or you can refrain with the snarky negativity and let us discuss the topic at hand like mature civil folk.

>

> So we need also a solo version of fractals and dungeons and every open world encounter?

 

If someone can solo a raid Boss that should be a challenge to 5 players, Kudos and Well Played, as I understand it, there are people Duoing Raids reliably and regularly already, so what is your sudden gripe if someone can pull it off solo?

 

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > > These are good ideas.

> > > > >

> > > > > I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap.

> > > > >

> > > > > * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong)

> > > > > * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be.

> > > > > * 9 - 10 - Set at 100%

> > > > >

> > > > > This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers.

> > > >

> > > > And starting at 10 players like world bosses. Raids are group content, not solo content.

> > >

> > > No. Starting at 1.

> > >

> > > Unless you want to equate Raids to World Bosses, and we can have Teq, Shatter and Jormag drop Li's from now on, and have their own Legendary Armor Collections.

> > >

> > > Which you know.. would be the ideal solution here. Or you can refrain with the snarky negativity and let us discuss the topic at hand like mature civil folk.

> >

> > So we need also a solo version of fractals and dungeons and every open world encounter?

>

> If someone can solo a raid Boss that should be a challenge to 5 players, Kudos and Well Played, as I understand it, there are people Duoing Raids reliably and regularly already, so what is your sudden gripe if someone can pull it off solo?

>

>

 

You said we need solo raids so either explain why raids are special or we need it for every instanced content.

[STIHL.2489]

Reality check, people have Soloed the Dungeons within their first week (maybe even Beta, not sure on that), I can't even imagine how many solo them now with all the power creep this game has and lack of any solid LFM's no doubt pushing for more more short man runs, of 2 to 3 people.

 

Also, people solo T1 -T2 and Duo T3 to T4 fractals all the time, with regular frequency already.

 

Welcome to the Game.

 

And like I said, if someone can solo a Raid boss designed to give 5 players a hard fight, good luck to them, it's no more _solo content_ then a T3 fractal would be called Solo Content.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> All you have to do as a DPS is do dodge the teleport field. Everything else do the supporter for you. Not that hard.

 

That assumes you have one or more support players who have some idea of what they're doing. What if *everyone* is DPS? Again, the point of easy mode is not about what people are capable of in hard mode raids, it's about making those results available to *much* less capable groups. Like I said in another thread, it's *possible* to beat Super Metroid in under a half hour. That's great and all, but if the game *required* players to beat the game in under a half hour, or even under an hour, then almost nobody would play it at all. You keep pointing out examples of "oh, I know people who can beat Super Metroid in 45 minutes, so a two hour timer is *plenty* of time and nothing needs to be changed," but there are plenty of people who would need 4-8 hours to complete it, and for *those* people, no matter how many *can* complete it in under an hour, a version that is "under an hour or never" is never going to be good enough.

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > All you have to do as a DPS is do dodge the teleport field. Everything else do the supporter for you. Not that hard.

>

> That assumes you have one or more support players who have some idea of what they're doing. What if *everyone* is DPS? Again, the point of easy mode is not about what people are capable of in hard mode raids, it's about making those results available to *much* less capable groups. Like I said in another thread, it's *possible* to beat Super Metroid in under a half hour. That's great and all, but if the game *required* players to beat the game in under a half hour, or even under an hour, then almost nobody would play it at all. You keep pointing out examples of "oh, I know people who can beat Super Metroid in 45 minutes, so a two hour timer is *plenty* of time and nothing needs to be changed," but there are plenty of people who would need 4-8 hours to complete it, and for *those* people, no matter how many *can* complete it in under an hour, a version that is "under an hour or never" is never going to be good enough.

>

 

If everyone is DPS you failed basic execution in a team oriented part of the game. You deserve to wipe.

 

Yeah I know you said it. Another stupid comparison. Metroid is exploration based. Of course everyone would hate it if you have a time limit there when they play it for the first time. Can you please bring one time a proper comparison? Just once?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> If everyone is DPS you failed basic execution in a team oriented part of the game. You deserve to wipe.

 

See, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what easy mode is. If you want easy mode to just *be* hard mode, then what would even be the point? Hard mode has certain expectations, easy mode, at its most basic level, *does not have the same expectations.*

 

If someone wants to bring a balanced meta party to easy mode, they can do so (although it may not be the best use of their time), but it can't be a requirement. It has to be viable for you to just throw up an LFG, and the *first nine people who show up* can head right in and stand a decent chance of winning, regardless of prior experience, team comp, whatever. They should have to actually play the game, just like in any other mode, but just as any class can complete any story mission, just as any combination of classes can beat any dungeon and any low-tier Fractal, you should not need any specific combination of classes to succeed at easy mode raiding, even if that *is* an element of hard mode.

 

Easy mode is *intended* to be different than hard mode.

 

>Yeah I know you said it. Another stupid comparison. Metroid is exploration based. Of course everyone would hate it if you have a time limit there when they play it for the first time. Can you please bring one time a proper comparison? Just once?

 

/sigh. . .

 

 

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > If everyone is DPS you failed basic execution in a team oriented part of the game. You deserve to wipe.

>

> See, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what easy mode is. If you want easy mode to just *be* hard mode, then what would even be the point? Hard mode has certain expectations, easy mode, at its most basic level, *does not have the same expectations.*

>

> If someone wants to bring a balanced meta party to easy mode, they can do so (although it may not be the best use of their time), but it can't be a requirement. It has to be viable for you to just throw up an LFG, and the *first nine people who show up* can head right in and stand a decent chance of winning, regardless of prior experience, team comp, whatever. They should have to actually play the game, just like in any other mode, but just as any class can complete any story mission, just as any combination of classes can beat any dungeon and any low-tier Fractal, you should not need any specific combination of classes to succeed at easy mode raiding, even if that *is* an element of hard mode.

>

> Easy mode is *intended* to be different than hard mode.

>

So why do you say it will recreate the feeling in raids when you want it to be different?

You say mechanics should stay the same but if you don't need supporter or a tank they are not the same. It is impossible to recreate the mechanics and makes it useless as a training mode in any circumstances no matter how hard you try.

 

 

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>So why do you say it will recreate the feeling in raids when you want it to be different?

 

I've been clear about what I do want, and what I don't want.

 

I want encounters that take place on the same maps the raids do, with all the same story and side content available.

 

I want them to feature the same bosses and other enemies that the raids do.

 

I want these bosses and other enemies to behave exactly like the ones in the raids do, *with the exception* that mechanics that often lead to wipes are lowered in impact, such that they are less likely to result in wipes. Performing perfectly in an easy mode raid should produce nearly identical results to performing perfectly in hard raids, while performing poorly in easy mode would still much more often result in a successful run, if perhaps taking a bit longer.

 

I don't really care what *you* want to call whatever that would be, but whatever that would be, that's what I want.

 

>You say mechanics should stay the same but if you don't need supporter or a tank they are not the same.

 

If you don't have external buffs, you would need to provide your own, or just do less damage. If you don't have external healing, then you need to keep yourself healed up of any damage you take, same as any group content. Dedicated support characters are only necessary if the group unbalances themselves to leave a gap to be filled. Many encounters require a dedicated "tank," because of a combination of needing the boss in certain locations, and/or balanced build not being able to handle the damage that the boss would deal to the agroed character. A combination of reduced damage form the mechanics that require a boss in a certain location, and/or reduction in the damage the boss deals directly, would both make the role of the tank less vital to success, *and* allow more average builds to successfully fill the tank role.

 

If a team goes in wanting to mimic hard mode efforts, for training purposes, then they could still have one player fill the tank role, and perform it the same as a hard mode player would, with equivalent effects. If, on the other hand, the group just wanted to clear the encounter, then they could make do without a dedicated tank, and it might result in some more risky damage that they would have to mitigate though various methods available, but they would have more flexibility in *how* they wanted to balance things out.

 

I do think it would be nice for "Toughness tank" encounters in easy mode to have a "Toughness Shrine" outside them, which could apply a huge chunk of toughness temporarily to a single character at a time, allowing any one of the players who shows up to take over the "tank" role, without needing specific gear to do so. This doesn't seem like it would be *super* hard to implement based on similar existing functions, and might be useful to have around.

[Miellyn.6847]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> >So why do you say it will recreate the feeling in raids when you want it to be different?

>

> I've been clear about what I do want, and what I don't want.

>

> I want encounters that take place on the same maps the raids do, with all the same story and side content available.

>

> I want them to feature the same bosses and other enemies that the raids do.

>

> I want these bosses and other enemies to behave exactly like the ones in the raids do, *with the exception* that mechanics that often lead to wipes are lowered in impact, such that they are less likely to result in wipes. Performing perfectly in an easy mode raid should produce nearly identical results to performing perfectly in hard raids, while performing poorly in easy mode would still much more often result in a successful run, if perhaps taking a bit longer.

>

> I don't really care what *you* want to call whatever that would be, but whatever that would be, that's what I want.

>

 

Yes. You want raid rewards no matter how much it costs. You don't care about the difficulty as long as you can enter it with a random group with random equipment and failing is almost impossible.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

There are important problems with your idea, first of all Raids are not only about raid bosses. In your example, you overhaul Vale Guardian without taking into account the mobs that lead to it, which begs the question: why?

Second, your ideas about the greens, blues and seekers are all missing the actual problem most groups have with Vale Guardian. Identifying this "problem" is key to understanding how to make Vale Guardian easier. Fortunately, Vale Guardian consists of very clear "phases" that can be used to identify those problems.

 

The fight with Vale Guardian begins with fighting the mobs leading to it. So before making any changes to the Vale Guardian's mechanics, find out if those same mechanics are the problem when fighting the mobs leading to it.

Do groups, even inexperienced ones, struggle fighting the Green Guardian? Do the blue area of effects actually need to be toned down for that fight?

Do groups struggle with the Blue Guardian due to the greens? What about seeker control at the Red Guardian?

 

Personally, I don't think any group of 10 players would have an issue beating the initial mobs, also, from my experience with training runs on Vale Guardian and my own static group's initial experience, getting Vale Guardian to split for the first time is been done nearly every single time. Like first or maybe second try, which fits the qualifications for "easy mode". Of course this is true if boon strip and condition damage is available beforehand, obviously a team without any ability to boon strip won't be able to beat the blue guardian while a team with very little condition damage will struggle a lot on the red one.

If splitting Vale Guardian for the first time is done consistently by most, if not all, training runs, despite having to deal with the real greens, blues and reds, then the actual problem in defeating Vale Guardian lies elsewhere and not with those mechanics.

 

So what is the "problem" when fighting Vale Guardian? I'd say the number one reason for failing Vale Guardian is tanking. Someone that knows when to cross a lit platform can make Vale Guardian a joke, even if the other 9 players in the Raid are newcomers. But, at the very same time, it's the hardest role to learn, because in order to learn how to cross, you need to try it, potentially leading your group to wipes. Bad greens do not exist if your tank does a good job. Break bars are not an issue if your tank knows what they are doing. DPS and healing isn't an issue if your tank knows when to cross. Sadly, none of the suggestions given help to teach anyone the most important part of the Vale Guardian encounter and the one "mechanic" that causes the wipes.

 

tl;dr Tweaking greens, blues and reds won't teach anyone how to avoid the actual number one reason for wipes on Vale Guardian, which is proper tanking.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Miellyn.6847" said:

> > If everyone is DPS you failed basic execution in a team oriented part of the game. You deserve to wipe.

>

> See, that is a fundamental misunderstanding of what easy mode is. If you want easy mode to just *be* hard mode, then what would even be the point? Hard mode has certain expectations, easy mode, at its most basic level, *does not have the same expectations.*

>

> If someone wants to bring a balanced meta party to easy mode, they can do so (although it may not be the best use of their time), but it can't be a requirement. It has to be viable for you to just throw up an LFG, and the *first nine people who show up* can head right in and stand a decent chance of winning, regardless of prior experience, team comp, whatever. They should have to actually play the game, just like in any other mode, but just as any class can complete any story mission, just as any combination of classes can beat any dungeon and any low-tier Fractal, you should not need any specific combination of classes to succeed at easy mode raiding, even if that *is* an element of hard mode.

>

> Easy mode is *intended* to be different than hard mode.

>

> >Yeah I know you said it. Another stupid comparison. Metroid is exploration based. Of course everyone would hate it if you have a time limit there when they play it for the first time. Can you please bring one time a proper comparison? Just once?

>

> /sigh. . .

>

I would like to compare it to T1 and T2 fractals, where it’s just a grab and go. You are not worrying about who brought what class, you are simply looking for people to join up with regardless of the comp.

 

[sigur.9453]

and we are back to the state where the other "disscusion" was.

/close

[Tyson.5160]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> and we are back to the state where the other "disscusion" was.

> /close

 

Yup. Though I do have a slight disagreement with Ohoni and think the easy mode needs its own uniqueness and flavour to it.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> There are important problems with your idea, first of all Raids are not only about raid bosses. In your example, you overhaul Vale Guardian without taking into account the mobs that lead to it, which begs the question: why?

> Second, your ideas about the greens, blues and seekers are all missing the actual problem most groups have with Vale Guardian. Identifying this "problem" is key to understanding how to make Vale Guardian easier. Fortunately, Vale Guardian consists of very clear "phases" that can be used to identify those problems.

>

> The fight with Vale Guardian begins with fighting the mobs leading to it. So before making any changes to the Vale Guardian's mechanics, find out if those same mechanics are the problem when fighting the mobs leading to it.

> Do groups, even inexperienced ones, struggle fighting the Green Guardian? Do the blue area of effects actually need to be toned down for that fight?

> Do groups struggle with the Blue Guardian due to the greens? What about seeker control at the Red Guardian?

>

> Personally, I don't think any group of 10 players would have an issue beating the initial mobs, also, from my experience with training runs on Vale Guardian and my own static group's initial experience, getting Vale Guardian to split for the first time is been done nearly every single time. Like first or maybe second try, which fits the qualifications for "easy mode". Of course this is true if boon strip and condition damage is available beforehand, obviously a team without any ability to boon strip won't be able to beat the blue guardian while a team with very little condition damage will struggle a lot on the red one.

> If splitting Vale Guardian for the first time is done consistently by most, if not all, training runs, despite having to deal with the real greens, blues and reds, then the actual problem in defeating Vale Guardian lies elsewhere and not with those mechanics.

>

> So what is the "problem" when fighting Vale Guardian? I'd say the number one reason for failing Vale Guardian is tanking. Someone that knows when to cross a lit platform can make Vale Guardian a joke, even if the other 9 players in the Raid are newcomers. But, at the very same time, it's the hardest role to learn, because in order to learn how to cross, you need to try it, potentially leading your group to wipes. Bad greens do not exist if your tank does a good job. Break bars are not an issue if your tank knows what they are doing. DPS and healing isn't an issue if your tank knows when to cross. Sadly, none of the suggestions given help to teach anyone the most important part of the Vale Guardian encounter and the one "mechanic" that causes the wipes.

>

> tl;dr Tweaking greens, blues and reds won't teach anyone how to avoid the actual number one reason for wipes on Vale Guardian, which is proper tanking.

 

So I guess the suggestion would be make the energy floor do less damage, so that error spawned greens aren’t an insta kill?

 

Or make more forgiving for an inexperienced tank?

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I would like to compare it to T1 and T2 fractals, where it’s just a grab and go. You are not worrying about who brought what class, you are simply looking for people to join up with regardless of the comp.

>

 

First, a grab and go team will fail to even reach Vale Guardian, not because of greens, blues or reds, but because they will likely not have boon striping or enough condition damage.

Second, if that grab and go team managed to reach Vale Guardian (or skip directly to it) they could very easily phase Vale Guardian for the first time, again while fighting all the blues, greens and reds. Phasing Vale Guardian for the time doesn't require more skill than your average dungeon or T2 fractals and the possibility of a wipe is minimal, if any. I've seen Vale Guardian split when a training run had some players using GREEN gear.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Miellyn.6847" said:

>Yes. You want raid rewards no matter how much it costs. You don't care about the difficulty as long as you can enter it with a random group with random equipment and failing is almost impossible.

 

Did you not read the OP? We aren't discussing rewards here, we're only discussing what we want out of the content design.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> There are important problems with your idea, first of all Raids are not only about raid bosses. In your example, you overhaul Vale Guardian without taking into account the mobs that lead to it, which begs the question: why?

 

So what is your objection? I figure that part would be self-explanatory, the mobs leading up to it would behave like the mobs in the encounter itself, basically identical to how they currently behave, with maybe a few small downward tweaks. I don't recall ever having any trouble with them.

 

>The fight with Vale Guardian begins with fighting the mobs leading to it. So before making any changes to the Vale Guardian's mechanics, find out if those same mechanics are the problem when fighting the mobs leading to it.

>Do groups, even inexperienced ones, struggle fighting the Green Guardian? Do the blue area of effects actually need to be toned down for that fight?

>Do groups struggle with the Blue Guardian due to the greens? What about seeker control at the Red Guardian?

 

I don't believe so. The problem comes when having to fight all of these effects at once, which an unskilled, uncoordinated group struggles to do. It's too much to handle successfully at once, which is why it's useful to tone down the effects such that you can fail at one or two of them and not fail the entire encounter. Further, in the actual fight you have the difficulty of being in an enclosed space in which the floor is often lava, which makes many of the effects far more of a threat. Mastering the pre-bosses by no means prepares you to master the actual boss fight.

 

>Personally, I don't think any group of 10 players would have an issue beating the initial mobs, also, from my experience with training runs on Vale Guardian and my own static group's initial experience, getting Vale Guardian to split for the first time is been done nearly every single time. Like first or maybe second try, which fits the qualifications for "easy mode".

 

The first phase is easier than the later ones, but it's an incomplete version of the fight. The point of an easy mode is that it's a *complete* version of the encounter, start to finish, fanfare at the end, move on to the next boss. Whatever you may believe about the first round of VG, it is not that.

 

>If splitting Vale Guardian for the first time is done consistently by most, if not all, training runs, despite having to deal with the real greens, blues and reds, then the actual problem in defeating Vale Guardian lies elsewhere and not with those mechanics.

 

That's not true either. If a team can barely stumble across the line into phase 2 without nearly enough time on the clock to beat the encounter before the enrage timer hits, then they aren't "almost there," they just have some of the basics down. And again, a lot of the problem is in combinations. The blue and red effects are a lot less scary without the addition of damaging floor panels that add to the consequences.

 

>Sadly, none of the suggestions given help to teach anyone the most important part of the Vale Guardian encounter and the one "mechanic" that causes the wipes.

 

Perhaps not, but what changes for easy mode *would* do is offer a lower consequence environment, one in which a player *could* train to be a "good tank," *without* causing his entire party to wipe every time. If a players does want to become a great tank, then he can take on that role, and do the best he can, and if he makes mistakes, he knows he made mistakes and will try to do better, but it won't cost the entire rest of the team their attempt. He can make multiple mistakes per run and keep going. I can't imagine that this wouldn't lead to more people stepping up to attempt the role, knowing that they have far less pressure riding on their shoulders.

 

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> I would like to compare it to T1 and T2 fractals, where it’s just a grab and go. You are not worrying about who brought what class, you are simply looking for people to join up with regardless of the comp.

 

Exactly. I'm really not understanding some oft he people posting today, it's like they've never joined an LFG pug in GW2 before and have no idea what the composition of one looks like. It's just a group of random players, some good, some bad, some experienced, some not, some in the best gear and build available, some. . . not. But it works fine for most instanced content in the game.

 

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Yup. Though I do have a slight disagreement with Ohoni and think the easy mode needs its own uniqueness and flavour to it.

 

I don't know, 1. "uniqueness and flavor" would almost certainly take more development time to produce than basic stat tweaks, 2. it would mean that even if you do play easy mode, you're getting a different experience than the hard mode (like Bloodstone Fen VG), which makes it not a true alternative, and 3. if the actual mechanics are different, then it would be problematic as a training mode as well, since players that mastered anything in easy mode would have to relearn the behaviors for hard.

 

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>First, a grab and go team will fail to even reach Vale Guardian, not because of greens, blues or reds, but because they will likely not have boon striping or enough condition damage.

 

Ok as awful at the game as you guys assume me to be, that's never been my experience. I was trying the raid with random guildies the first week, nobody really knew what was up, and we had no trouble getting to the platform, and really didn't have much trouble passing the first phase (if far too slowly). It's the later stuff where it gets complicated.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> So I guess the suggestion would be make the energy floor do less damage, so that error spawned greens aren’t an insta kill?

>

> Or make more forgiving for an inexperienced tank?

 

Having it deal less damage doesn't teach the tank how to move or when. Fix that and you fix the problem.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > So I guess the suggestion would be make the energy floor do less damage, so that error spawned greens aren’t an insta kill?

> >

> > Or make more forgiving for an inexperienced tank?

>

> Having it deal less damage doesn't teach the tank how to move or when. Fix that and you fix the problem.

 

But it does give him the opportunity to learn. He has to teach himself. Reduced consequences give him space to learn without wrecking the encounter for everyone.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > So I guess the suggestion would be make the energy floor do less damage, so that error spawned greens aren’t an insta kill?

> > >

> > > Or make more forgiving for an inexperienced tank?

> >

> > Having it deal less damage doesn't teach the tank how to move or when. Fix that and you fix the problem.

>

> But it does give him the opportunity to learn. He has to teach himself. Reduced consequences give him space to learn without wrecking the encounter for everyone.

 

In your hypothetical scenario the tank still takes damage. In mine they avoid it because they get a nice indicator and timers that tell them to move.

 

Last i checked X+1 > 0

So you're not teaching them and your proposal actually has more chances for it to fail. But continue on with bad ways to learn!

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> In your hypothetical scenario the tank still takes damage. In mine they avoid it because they get a nice indicator and timers that tell them to move.

 

Those things might be nice, but should be in addition to the lower stress environment. The problem is, if easy mode has the indicators, and hard doesn't, then they might become too dependent on waiting for the indicators, and have trouble pacing it without them.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Ok as awful at the game as you guys assume me to be, that's never been my experience. I was trying the raid with random guildies the first week, nobody really knew what was up, and we had no trouble getting to the platform, and really didn't have much trouble passing the first phase (if far too slowly). It's the later stuff where it gets complicated.

 

So you fought the REAL Green, Blue and Red mechanics and had no trouble passing the first phase, which was exactly my point. This means that Green, Blue and Red mechanics are NOT the problem with Vale Guardian. Plus they are not a problem with the pre-fight mobs.

 

The Vale Guardian is an example of a very well designed fight, it has a learning mode (the initial 3 mobs), an easy mode (the fight up to the first split), a normal mode (the fight up to the second split) and a hard mode (the last bit). The fight itself is teaching you what you need to know to progress and you agree that a group of totally random people can actually phase Vale Guardian (first time) reliably, therefore the mechanics that were proposed to change are not a problem with the fight.

 

I gave an actual "problem" with Vale Guardian and that is proper tanking and knowing when to cross the platforms to avoid a "bad green". That's an actual skill and probably the most intense and skillful part of the Vale Guardian fight and something that a player has no way of practicing alone. I've been running Vale Guardian since day one of Raids and I still haven't tanked Vale Guardian and I have zero experience in doing so. I've been lucky to always be in groups with people that can perform that task, but sometime I'd need to learn it, yet there is no way to learn it without actually diving in. What makes it even worse is that part is late in the fight and you can't get there alone, so you need to find 9 other people willing to reach that point, then watch you learn the fight, while happily wiping, or worse, succeeding even if you fail. Which invalidates the whole process of learning. If you fail in your task but your team still succeed, you learn nothing in the end.

 

Something like the training golem could teach you the timing, no damage needed, immortal player, immortal Golem and all you have to do is practice the timing, in a way that you won't screw up 9 other people if you fail it.