ReaverKane.7598 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > Some of those, like blues being louder are not really easy mode things, but actual QoL stuff that they should have fixed already. > > Their inability to make enemy attacks visible in the middle of the visual and auditory clutter is a problem of their own making, not a matter of difficulty, just poor implementation. > > > > All said, i think that anyone wanting to get their feet wet in raids, can already start with Escort. > > If people want to practice a particular boss (and honestly VG is without the doubt the encounter that spends the most time teaching you its mechanics), i'd rather they added the ability for people to make the golem in the training area behave like a particular boss, or even just spawn the boss itself (maybe add some transparency and tint it purple to make it seem like an hologram), or just transport players to a practice version of the raid arena with the console somewhere in the area, and allow stuff like players never get below 0 health, so they can feel the hits when they mess up, but don't die, etc. > > > > You get no rewards, you just do it for the practice. > > Problem solved. > > That is an interesting way to tackle it, I'll add it to the 1st post. I've edited the post a bit with more modifiers for the console. Anyway i'm in no way a huge raider, i've done a few, not even all encounters yet, so i'm not trying to say that Raids need to be only for the hardcores, or that if i did it the hard way everyone else should. But what i don't want is for raids to have something like T1 fractals. That will create a false sense of security on players, and if you do stuff like having greens spawn in the same area every time, or have a longer timer, people will go to "normal" mode and get killed all the time because they have false expectations. I'd rather have a place to practice the mechanics freely, without having to reset the raid every time and suffer that down time of everyone respawning, getting to the boss, then waiting for a ready check, etc. Barring that, i'll take only one difficulty over different difficulties. Especially because the last thing the already small raiding community needs is to get divided and spread out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > Some of those, like blues being louder are not really easy mode things, but actual QoL stuff that they should have fixed already. > > > Their inability to make enemy attacks visible in the middle of the visual and auditory clutter is a problem of their own making, not a matter of difficulty, just poor implementation. > > > > > > All said, i think that anyone wanting to get their feet wet in raids, can already start with Escort. > > > If people want to practice a particular boss (and honestly VG is without the doubt the encounter that spends the most time teaching you its mechanics), i'd rather they added the ability for people to make the golem in the training area behave like a particular boss, or even just spawn the boss itself (maybe add some transparency and tint it purple to make it seem like an hologram), or just transport players to a practice version of the raid arena with the console somewhere in the area, and allow stuff like players never get below 0 health, so they can feel the hits when they mess up, but don't die, etc. > > > > > > You get no rewards, you just do it for the practice. > > > Problem solved. > > > > That is an interesting way to tackle it, I'll add it to the 1st post. > > I've edited the post a bit with more modifiers for the console. > Anyway i'm in no way a huge raider, i've done a few, not even all encounters yet, so i'm not trying to say that Raids need to be only for the hardcores, or that if i did it the hard way everyone else should. > But what i don't want is for raids to have something like T1 fractals. That will create a false sense of security on players, and if you do stuff like having greens spawn in the same area every time, or have a longer timer, people will go to "normal" mode and get killed all the time because they have false expectations. > I'd rather have a place to practice the mechanics freely, without having to reset the raid every time and suffer that down time of everyone respawning, getting to the boss, then waiting for a ready check, etc. Barring that, i'll take only one difficulty over different difficulties. Especially because the last thing the already small raiding community needs is to get divided and spread out. By all means, all are welcome here. I just ask that you respect the rule I've set: "please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person". I will admit that the re-planning phase after a wipe can become rather prolonged, but I don't think there is a way for us to address that, as it is more of a people problem than a mechanics problem. At best, maybe it can be set up that we re-spawn at glenna's airship, or somewhere close to the arena rather than the entrance to cut down on travel/loading times? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > Some of those, like blues being louder are not really easy mode things, but actual QoL stuff that they should have fixed already. > Their inability to make enemy attacks visible in the middle of the visual and auditory clutter is a problem of their own making, not a matter of difficulty, just poor implementation. I agree, especially with the addition of Holosmith. I could never see the blue circles due to all the visual noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > Some of those, like blues being louder are not really easy mode things, but actual QoL stuff that they should have fixed already. > > Their inability to make enemy attacks visible in the middle of the visual and auditory clutter is a problem of their own making, not a matter of difficulty, just poor implementation. > > I agree, especially with the addition of Holosmith. I could never see the blue circles due to all the visual noise. > > True enough, the chrono well noise make it hard enough as is to hear it. Add the renegade spirits, scourge shades, holo, and guardi symbols, you'd be lucky to see the floor let alone what's on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I also thought that maybe they should add raid potions much like they do for fractals, increase damage, reduce damage, mobility etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I also thought that maybe they should add raid potions much like they do for fractals, increase damage, reduce damage, mobility etc. Plausible I don't think it would affect too much. Plus it would serve as a preemptive to magnetite sinks for people who now have no use for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaverKane.7598 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > @"ReaverKane.7598" said: > > > > Some of those, like blues being louder are not really easy mode things, but actual QoL stuff that they should have fixed already. > > > > Their inability to make enemy attacks visible in the middle of the visual and auditory clutter is a problem of their own making, not a matter of difficulty, just poor implementation. > > > > > > > > All said, i think that anyone wanting to get their feet wet in raids, can already start with Escort. > > > > If people want to practice a particular boss (and honestly VG is without the doubt the encounter that spends the most time teaching you its mechanics), i'd rather they added the ability for people to make the golem in the training area behave like a particular boss, or even just spawn the boss itself (maybe add some transparency and tint it purple to make it seem like an hologram), or just transport players to a practice version of the raid arena with the console somewhere in the area, and allow stuff like players never get below 0 health, so they can feel the hits when they mess up, but don't die, etc. > > > > > > > > You get no rewards, you just do it for the practice. > > > > Problem solved. > > > > > > That is an interesting way to tackle it, I'll add it to the 1st post. > > > > I've edited the post a bit with more modifiers for the console. > > Anyway i'm in no way a huge raider, i've done a few, not even all encounters yet, so i'm not trying to say that Raids need to be only for the hardcores, or that if i did it the hard way everyone else should. > > But what i don't want is for raids to have something like T1 fractals. That will create a false sense of security on players, and if you do stuff like having greens spawn in the same area every time, or have a longer timer, people will go to "normal" mode and get killed all the time because they have false expectations. > > I'd rather have a place to practice the mechanics freely, without having to reset the raid every time and suffer that down time of everyone respawning, getting to the boss, then waiting for a ready check, etc. Barring that, i'll take only one difficulty over different difficulties. Especially because the last thing the already small raiding community needs is to get divided and spread out. > > By all means, all are welcome here. I just ask that you respect the rule I've set: "please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person". I will admit that the re-planning phase after a wipe can become rather prolonged, but I don't think there is a way for us to address that, as it is more of a people problem than a mechanics problem. At best, maybe it can be set up that we re-spawn at glenna's airship, or somewhere close to the arena rather than the entrance to cut down on travel/loading times? The respawn intervals would be eliminated with my idea since you'd be able to be immortal and make the boss immortal, so you could be there practicing mechanics until you're sure you nail it every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > Add more options to the training golem to either add mechanics of vg or other bosses, or to spawn a raid boss. This is fine. It's an okay starting point to have them be true training at a golem or the like. However, i caution this by stating that if you're going to have this be for the purpose of training (I.E to get better and progress to normal mode) then you absolutely cannot drastically change things without having a negative feedback loop of enforcing bad habbits. > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode Good for a pure easy mode, bad for practical purposes of training to progress. Promotes being slow to move which will get you into trouble in normal mode. > Greens are now less frequent Good for a pure easy mode, bad practice for normal > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode Sensing a pattern..... > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode Again sensing a pattern, part of raids normal or otherwise is learning to adapt to and limit randomness. As is Greens aren't nearly as random and can be forced to spawn in specific sectors. > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode Repeating myself more .... > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic Doesn't actually fix the problem. In fact it puts more pressure onto one person. > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) Again good for easy, bad for practicing > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate This doesn't promote spacial awareness, so i'm confused why you'd change it. Needs explanation > Blues now take longer to detonate See above about bad for practice > Blues are now less frequent See above about bad for practice > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people ..... > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises I have no problem with them being louder, but drowning out other noise can lead to disorientation which is not good for anything. > Red orbs have reduced radius See above about practice etc..... > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic Again forcing the damage onto one person defeats the purpose of a group activity. > Marker to visually signal who is the tank Generally speaking that's called a commander tag.... > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers Good for an easy mode, bad for practice as it's teaching you specifically to read the UI and not watch your surroundings/cc the seekers. > Bullet hell removed from encounter Bad because this dramatically changes the encounter. You have that phase and its important to not only tanking/positioning but also CC > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics How can you decrease and eliminate at the same time ? ....Contradiction > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar The damage is already reduced when his bar hits 0. What's being said here doesn't teach good habits. > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. This defeats the purpose of anything other than an easy mode. If your goal is actually to improve or get better having a crutch there is bad because you cannot learn from your mistake if there is no recourse for it. The entire problem with this list is you need to accurately define why there's a reason for said mode. Is the mode easy so that people can improve, or is it easy so people can just see the content. If it's meant to be a true teaching tool then as stated swapping things up doesn't help but only promotes bad play and habits. If you strictly just want to have 10 people who can walk through the content and see all the models and story then sure make these changes sans the "Increased Boss damage" to the tank. That's just making 1 person take the brunt for 9 others and making it worse than normal mode which is contrarian to design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > Add more options to the training golem to either add mechanics of vg or other bosses, or to spawn a raid boss. > This is fine. It's an okay starting point to have them be true training at a golem or the like. However, i caution this by stating that if you're going to have this be for the purpose of training (I.E to get better and progress to normal mode) then you absolutely cannot drastically change things without having a negative feedback loop of enforcing bad habbits. > > > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > Good for a pure easy mode, bad for practical purposes of training to progress. Promotes being slow to move which will get you into trouble in normal mode. > > > Greens are now less frequent > Good for a pure easy mode, bad practice for normal > > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > Sensing a pattern..... > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > Again sensing a pattern, part of raids normal or otherwise is learning to adapt to and limit randomness. As is Greens aren't nearly as random and can be forced to spawn in specific sectors. > > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > Repeating myself more .... > > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > Doesn't actually fix the problem. In fact it puts more pressure onto one person. > > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > Again good for easy, bad for practicing > > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > This doesn't promote spacial awareness, so i'm confused why you'd change it. Needs explanation > > > Blues now take longer to detonate > See above about bad for practice > > Blues are now less frequent > See above about bad for practice > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > ..... > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > I have no problem with them being louder, but drowning out other noise can lead to disorientation which is not good for anything. > > Red orbs have reduced radius > See above about practice etc..... > > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > Again forcing the damage onto one person defeats the purpose of a group activity. > > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > Generally speaking that's called a commander tag.... > > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > Good for an easy mode, bad for practice as it's teaching you specifically to read the UI and not watch your surroundings/cc the seekers. > > Bullet hell removed from encounter > Bad because this dramatically changes the encounter. You have that phase and its important to not only tanking/positioning but also CC > > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > How can you decrease and eliminate at the same time ? ....Contradiction > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > The damage is already reduced when his bar hits 0. What's being said here doesn't teach good habits. > > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. > This defeats the purpose of anything other than an easy mode. If your goal is actually to improve or get better having a crutch there is bad because you cannot learn from your mistake if there is no recourse for it. > > The entire problem with this list is you need to accurately define why there's a reason for said mode. > Is the mode easy so that people can improve, or is it easy so people can just see the content. > > If it's meant to be a true teaching tool then as stated swapping things up doesn't help but only promotes bad play and habits. If you strictly just want to have 10 people who can walk through the content and see all the models and story then sure make these changes sans the "Increased Boss damage" to the tank. That's just making 1 person take the brunt for 9 others and making it worse than normal mode which is contrarian to design. Even changing the greens to spawn the same, but instead stun the party if not executed. I still think blues should teleport without damage as it’s an annoyance. Can change the reds to have decreased health, so you can kill them. I also like the idea for the last phase is to have a damage section, a neutral section and then a boss damaging section for flavour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 Valid points. My original expectation with the greens and such is that once players have familiarized themselves with the fact that they would have to look out for certain things, such as greens, seekers, or blue circles, they would then be able to translate those skills into normal mode as I do not believe that the changes would be too far apart. For clarification, I am not asking for all of them to be done all at once. I do have some points I must address though. > @"TexZero.7910" said: > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > Generally speaking that's called a commander tag.... Generally, but not always. Not even a majority of the time from my experience. > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > Good for an easy mode, bad for practice as it's teaching you specifically to read the UI and not watch your surroundings/cc the seekers. I would argue that the seekers still need to be cced. I believe this way would open a different option to handle the seekers, while making it easier for people with ccs to know where they should be throwing it. > The entire problem with this list is you need to accurately define why there's a reason for said mode. > Is the mode easy so that people can improve, or is it easy so people can just see the content. Agreed, this list is a hodgepodge of suggestions and ideals from myself and multiple other sources that I have collected, I do apologize for the incoherence of it. > If it's meant to be a true teaching tool then as stated swapping things up doesn't help but only promotes bad play and habits. If you strictly just want to have 10 people who can walk through the content and see all the models and story then sure make these changes sans the "Increased Boss damage" to the tank. That's just making 1 person take the brunt for 9 others and making it worse than normal mode which is contrarian to design. Valid point, I'll have to reconsider some things. I thank you for your insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malediktus.9250 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > I also thought that maybe they should add raid potions much like they do for fractals, increase damage, reduce damage, mobility etc. No thanks, those should never have been added for fractals either. Way too strong for too low cost. So they are basically baseline for any daily t4 runner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ayrilana.1396 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > > Some previously discussed suggestions can be found at: > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465220#Comment_465220 > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465503#Comment_465503 > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465538#Comment_465538 > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465611#Comment_465611 > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465742#Comment_465742 > > Tl:DR > > Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s). > Raid version of Mist Potions. > Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > Greens are now less frequent > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > Blues now take longer to detonate > Blues are now less frequent > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > > Red orbs have reduced radius > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > Bullet hell removed from encounter > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. So long as there is no achievement or collection progression, cannot earn insights, and no boss chests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 25, 2018 Author Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > > > > Some previously discussed suggestions can be found at: > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465220#Comment_465220 > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465503#Comment_465503 > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465538#Comment_465538 > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465611#Comment_465611 > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465742#Comment_465742 > > > > Tl:DR > > > > Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s). > > Raid version of Mist Potions. > > Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) > > > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > > Greens are now less frequent > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > > > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > > Blues now take longer to detonate > > Blues are now less frequent > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > > > > Red orbs have reduced radius > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > > > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > > Bullet hell removed from encounter > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > > > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > > > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. > > So long as there is no achievement or collection progression, cannot earn insights, and no boss chests. I'll let anet decide that. For now we just focus on mechanics and/or suggestions to widen the door for new players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlaqueFyre.5678 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > > > > > > Some previously discussed suggestions can be found at: > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465220#Comment_465220 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465503#Comment_465503 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465538#Comment_465538 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465611#Comment_465611 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465742#Comment_465742 > > > > > > Tl:DR > > > > > > Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s). > > > Raid version of Mist Potions. > > > Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) > > > > > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > > > Greens are now less frequent > > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > > > > > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > > > Blues now take longer to detonate > > > Blues are now less frequent > > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > > > > > > Red orbs have reduced radius > > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > > > > > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > > > Bullet hell removed from encounter > > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > > > > > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > > > > > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. > > > > So long as there is no achievement or collection progression, cannot earn insights, and no boss chests. > > I'll let anet decide that. For now we just focus on mechanics and/or suggestions to widen the door for new players. As stated by Devs they have those in place already see above Dev quote, they are fine with the state of Raid Difficulty and don’t want to make them easier as stated by the Raid Dev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 So do you want have a separate thread for each boss? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tyson.5160 Posted April 25, 2018 Share Posted April 25, 2018 I’m debating on whether the boss should have the same amount of hp, but do less damage and have no enrage timer. Greens: could stun instead if doing mega damage. Could also provide a damage buff. Blue: could still teleport with no damage. Red: teams in somewhat the same, but be able to be killed. Bullet hell could do less damage and less AOE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Tyson.5160" said: > So do you want have a separate thread for each boss? Planning on it > @"BlaqueFyre.5678" said: > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > > > > > > > > Some previously discussed suggestions can be found at: > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465220#Comment_465220 > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465503#Comment_465503 > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465538#Comment_465538 > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465611#Comment_465611 > > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465742#Comment_465742 > > > > > > > > Tl:DR > > > > > > > > Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s). > > > > Raid version of Mist Potions. > > > > Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) > > > > > > > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > > > > Greens are now less frequent > > > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > > > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > > > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > > > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > > > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > > > > > > > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > > > > Blues now take longer to detonate > > > > Blues are now less frequent > > > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > > > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > > > > > > > > Red orbs have reduced radius > > > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > > > > > > > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > > > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > > > > Bullet hell removed from encounter > > > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > > > > > > > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > > > > > > > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. > > > > > > So long as there is no achievement or collection progression, cannot earn insights, and no boss chests. > > > > I'll let anet decide that. For now we just focus on mechanics and/or suggestions to widen the door for new players. > > As stated by Devs they have those in place already see above Dev quote, they are fine with the state of Raid Difficulty and don’t want to make them easier as stated by the Raid Dev And that's fine. Consider this, if you would, like the espec suggestion threads you find poping up every now and again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talindra.4958 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > @"Ayrilana.1396" said: > > > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > > > The purpose of this is to give a simplified version of vg to serve as a means to practice mechanics, to get your feet wet so to speak, as others have asked before. Any ideas are welcomed, just please separate yourselves from your ideas, and criticize the idea not the person. We will not discuss rewards here at this time. Once the final draft of how an easy mode vg plays, then we can discuss rewards. > > > > > > Some previously discussed suggestions can be found at: > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465220#Comment_465220 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465503#Comment_465503 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465538#Comment_465538 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465611#Comment_465611 > > > https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/comment/465742#Comment_465742 > > > > > > Tl:DR > > > > > > Add more options to the training golem to either spawn mechanics of bosses, or to spawn a raid boss by warping the group into a training instance where they can freely practice a predetermined set of mechanic(s). > > > Raid version of Mist Potions. > > > Ensure that mechanics can not overlap (blues can not spawn on a location that green has spawned) > > > > > > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode > > > Greens are now less frequent > > > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode > > > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode > > > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode > > > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic > > > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random) > > > > > > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate > > > Blues now take longer to detonate > > > Blues are now less frequent > > > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people > > > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises > > > > > > Red orbs have reduced radius > > > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic > > > > > > Marker to visually signal who is the tank > > > Marker to visually signal who is being hunted by seekers > > > Bullet hell removed from encounter > > > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics > > > > > > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar > > > > > > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned. > > > > So long as there is no achievement or collection progression, cannot earn insights, and no boss chests. > > I'll let anet decide that. For now we just focus on mechanics and/or suggestions to widen the door for new players. as soon as the door is open for easy mode, there will be high potential people requesting for equal loot and rewards. Anet is aware of that. IF this is the way we are moving towards, Arena net.. might as well Nerf current raid all together. i don't mind.. if i can afk and get loot. :p also remove some crucial mechanics ... btw i play with 400 to 600 ping average. some mechanic thanks to anet make it easier for us high ping. but some still need very reasonable reflex. those of you who has 50 ping and still cant pull yourself to try and learn the current mechanic, then really raid isn't for you. you don't need that extra push for you to play, you need to push yourself to try. current raid community are quite positive and nice towards raid newbies. occasionally you see some bad players around but that is the same with all game mode pvp, wvw etc. raid is end game PVE. standard needs to be kept up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 We'll cross that bridge when we get there. For now I would like to focus on how it should work rather than what it should reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
STIHL.2489 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 These are good ideas. I think a simple player scaling idea would also work into the design, like major World Bosses, but with a cap. * 1 - 5 Players, the Raid is set at 50% of it's Damage/Hp (basically everything is half a strong) * 6-8 - Players,. everything is set at 75% of what it should be. * 9 - 10 - Set at 100% This would allow small group players to test the raid, learn the mechanics with less people or the small group of people they feel the most comfortable with so they don't have to worry about having performance anxiety with a bunch of strangers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > For now I would like to focus on how it should work rather than what it should reward. I still think you need to sort out why it should exist before you go into designing how. Without a method to the madness there's just chaos and that helps no one. You should sort out if the intent of design is to help people improve such that they no longer feel intimidated by a normal mode or is it to just open the zone and story to people who otherwise don't care about mechanical complexity. Once you know which way on the pendulum you swing then you can start building accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sephylon.4938 Posted April 26, 2018 Author Share Posted April 26, 2018 First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexZero.7910 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 > @"Sephylon.4938" said: > First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with. So now you have a good overview as to where to start design and what the high level goals should be. 1) Introduce and Practice Bosses (This to me says it should be done with the golem, but there are other ways it can be done) 2 ) Scaling mechanics (I question how this is going to logically work as the raids are designed with 10 people in mind, sure it can be done with less but ideally 10 gives you a fair bit of leeway as is when it comes to role selection and compression to handle the mechanics that exist) 3) Easing Anxiety (Not sure you can design around this premise without severely hampering good meaningful practice 4) Progression with like minded people ( I don't personally feel this is something a mode can fix, to me this is ideally fixed by updating Guilds and addition Guild Boards so people can see activity levels and types of content those guilds do, while additionally updating LFG as it's dated and a mess logistically) So from what you have that we can work with again in my opinion we need to figure out what is both good practice (doesn't teach bad habits) and doesn't elevate blood pressure/anxiety. Just taking VG as an example lowering the scale of people required to do Greens or having them longer delay teach people to be slow or to have less than 4 (normal) people on that case. However, you could have it do something obnoxious but not threatening like dazing them (although this would punish tanks and healers more than other). Alternatively, if it's treated as a simulation, the simulation can just keep track of failed mechanics and print out mistakes that were made (Though a raid leader typically already does this). Ideally you want to make sure you're not promoting people to either ignore or push the responsibilities where they shouldn't be. Eg A good tank knows when and how to move so that no green ever shows up in a highlighted section. To that end the training mode can have a counter show on each section for when its about to light up and a count down for when the Guardian is going to transition into CC. This will teach tanks movement (one of the common reasons VG fails) and the rest of the Group needs to CC to stop the bullet-hell phases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eramonster.2718 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I prefer this kind of discussion with a specific on the table. Back to topic, I don't think any adjustment should be made for the "training mode". A more informative indicator/ warning for the bosses ability serves the purpose better. *E.g. An announcement indicator for Green with X number of players currently standing in it. A raid announcement calling for interrupt 1.5 second before it happens etc integrated into the mode, avoid third party programs.* Mechanics and damage should retain the way it is. This is because any alteration to the mechanics and damage will deviates it from the raid. Creating different methods and meta to perfect that mode which might not work for the real thing. Like learning to ride a bike, if the player does not prefer the method of having another person teaching/holding the bicycle up while learning, another alternative is to provide "addons" wheels. Not making alterations, transforming the bicycle into a tricycle (learns nothing aside paddling). As for the rewards, there shouldn't be any (achievements or any skin loots related to raids). The point of the training is a preparation for he real thing and **not another alternative/cheap way to obtain something out from raids without participating.** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohoni.6057 Posted April 26, 2018 Share Posted April 26, 2018 I'll reiterate my basic theory that **the core mechanics themselves should not be changed.** That is to say, the timing, duration, visuals, *success* conditions of most elements should stay as close to the original as possible. If you "fail" to do something right on easy mode, then it should have failed you in hard mode too. If you succeed at something in easy mode, then that same gameplay should prove successful in hard mode. If the mechanics are designed in such a way that it is easier to "clear" a given hurdle inn easy mode than in hard mode, then all it accomplishes is teaching bad habits that will make playing hard mode even more difficult. The thing that should differentiate easy mode from hard is that if you *do* fail a mechanic in easy mode, the *punishment* should be reduced, in some cases significantly, so that it is less likely to result in a wipe. It would exist to let you know that you messed up and could do better, not to end the entire run because you messed up. So the most textbook "green circle," have the sale "rules" to it, the same timing, locations, same number of players needed, all of that, but just reduce the damage for failing it to the point that it is not, *alone* as much of a threat. Only in combination with multiple *other* failures would one missed green circle end up killing too many players to recover from. As for other mechanics, reduce the damage of "bad" floor tiles to the point where you could stay in them for a decent amount of time, healing through the damage, so long as no other damage sources are coming in at the same time (it would catch up to you eventually, just not as fast as in hard mode). Also, rather than reducing the boss HP, which would throw off his timing considerably, remove the enrage timer so that players don't need as much DPS to beat him within the timer, and can just take 15-20 minutes if that's what they need. Again, if they are doing really well, they defeat him with the original enrage timer and could likely do the same in hard mode. If they don't do as well, there would be some message that they missed the enrage timer, but nothing would really change and they could keep playing until they beat it. It's also important to NOT view an easy mode raid as a stepping stone, to NOT view it as "just practice for the "real" thing. It needs to be treated as a co-equal branch of the game, the hardest raid some players will ever do, because hard mode is just not their style. If players want to use easy mode for training purposes, it should be designed in a way that is helpful for that function, but it should also fully respect those players who have no interest in "moving on" to the harder version. It needs to be fun and rewarding in and of itself, first and foremost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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