How would an easy mode raid work - VG

[Xca.9721]

VG in its current state is already easy mode.. What we need is a cm

[Theros.1390]

Easy mode on VG does exist already.

 

Go with 10 players. :)

[Talindra.4958]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > Ok as awful at the game as you guys assume me to be, that's never been my experience. I was trying the raid with random guildies the first week, nobody really knew what was up, and we had no trouble getting to the platform, and really didn't have much trouble passing the first phase (if far too slowly). It's the later stuff where it gets complicated.

>

> So you fought the REAL Green, Blue and Red mechanics and had no trouble passing the first phase, which was exactly my point. This means that Green, Blue and Red mechanics are NOT the problem with Vale Guardian. Plus they are not a problem with the pre-fight mobs.

>

> The Vale Guardian is an example of a very well designed fight, it has a learning mode (the initial 3 mobs), an easy mode (the fight up to the first split), a normal mode (the fight up to the second split) and a hard mode (the last bit). The fight itself is teaching you what you need to know to progress and you agree that a group of totally random people can actually phase Vale Guardian (first time) reliably, therefore the mechanics that were proposed to change are not a problem with the fight.

>

> I gave an actual "problem" with Vale Guardian and that is proper tanking and knowing when to cross the platforms to avoid a "bad green". That's an actual skill and probably the most intense and skillful part of the Vale Guardian fight and something that a player has no way of practicing alone. I've been running Vale Guardian since day one of Raids and I still haven't tanked Vale Guardian and I have zero experience in doing so. I've been lucky to always be in groups with people that can perform that task, but sometime I'd need to learn it, yet there is no way to learn it without actually diving in. What makes it even worse is that part is late in the fight and you can't get there alone, so you need to find 9 other people willing to reach that point, then watch you learn the fight, while happily wiping, or worse, succeeding even if you fail. Which invalidates the whole process of learning. If you fail in your task but your team still succeed, you learn nothing in the end.

>

> Something like the training golem could teach you the timing, no damage needed, immortal player, immortal Golem and all you have to do is practice the timing, in a way that you won't screw up 9 other people if you fail it.

 

totally agree. i helped to train few groups of people who never played fractal and they managed to defeat VG. but if you are very experienced in fractal T4 and 100cm, you will not ask for raid in easy mode. This is one of a very very well designed raid boss. The very first raid boss that introduce important mechanics to start raid... any change to these mechanic it isn't the same anymore. IF you are only interested with the raid loot and not the raid itself, then you shouldn't ask for easy raid. you should fight for them to have the raid loot provided in other means. we have a few issues and interest here with people requesting for raid easy mode because not everyone interested to learn raids at all. There is nothing else that make current raider feel accomplished that is the legendary armor. if this armor is accessible by other easy mean, then i don't think the current raid community going to be very pleased with it. Anet should make a different pve legendary skin for people who doesn't play raid, doesn't play wvw, doesn't play pvp and doesn't play fractal. so they can obtain pve leg armor skin by grinding open world content. also make these skin prettier than raid armor skin no problem.

[Sephylon.4938]

Something else that might help get new players in, expanding on the idea that the training golem spawns boss mechanics, what if it gave achievements? Something along the lines of: Green newbie, fought the golem for 5 full minutes with greens enabled, and did not miss a single one, bronze for 10 min, silver for 15, gold for 1 hour, platinum/god for 2 hours. Then another set of similar achievements for doing thesame but with blues, and another for soing both at once. It could be used to get new people in instead of asking for li, because it will give the indication that they are familiar with atleast that much of the fight's mechanics. They now just need to put it into practice.

 

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> So you fought the REAL Green, Blue and Red mechanics and had no trouble passing the first phase, which was exactly my point. This means that Green, Blue and Red mechanics are NOT the problem with Vale Guardian. Plus they are not a problem with the pre-fight mobs.

 

But that's like saying that for a football Quarterback, "throwing the ball is not a problem, because he can do that very accurately at tire hoops." Well ok, maybe he can, but he can still miss passes when instead he has to hit a moving target while the defense is rushing him.

 

*Individually* those mechanics are not a problem. The *problem* comes from having to manage them all at once, on top of several other mechanics that only show up in the later phases, and doing all of them fast enough that you clear the last phase before hitting a timer. *Individually* they are not the problem, but that does not mean that the best solution does not involve tweaking some of them down a bit so that *in combination* they pose less of a threat.

 

The other solution would be to remove phases entirely, but I don't like that one because I believe that experiencing all the phases (even if in a lower risk form) presents a more well-rounded play experience. If you only got to experience Phase 1 in easy mode, then you wouldn't be able to experience the entire thing.

 

>The Vale Guardian is an example of a very well designed fight,

 

I totally agree that it is very well designed *for players who like to raid at that challenge level.*

 

And for those players, they already have the normal mode version, they are covered, easy mode has nothing to do with those players.

 

What we are discussing is an easy mode, for the players left out by the existing version, and that version is designed for players who *do not enjoy the challenge factor the original poses,* and there is no clever design choice that will change that.

 

>I gave an actual "problem" with Vale Guardian and that is proper tanking and knowing when to cross the platforms to avoid a "bad green". That's an actual skill and probably the most intense and skillful part of the Vale Guardian fight and something that a player has no way of practicing alone.

 

You left out the bit where phasing the boss at the one minute left mark is still not "a good tank away from beating it," since they'd still have no tie to finish.

 

>What makes it even worse is that part is late in the fight and you can't get there alone, so you need to find 9 other people willing to reach that point, then watch you learn the fight, while happily wiping, or worse, succeeding even if you fail.

 

You know what could help with that? An easy mode where you're almost guaranteed to hit the second and third phases every time, with plenty of opportunity to practice the tanking, and low pressure since even if you fumble it a little it'll probably work out fine.

 

>If you fail in your task but your team still succeed, you learn nothing in the end.

 

That's not true. If you fail, you've learned not to do that again, and can try better next time. It would be selfish to want the attempt to fail for everyone else, just so that you could go another round of practice right away.

 

It's kind of sad that you seem to present it as a *worst case scenario* when the raid actually *succeeds* for 9/10 players.

 

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> but if you are very experienced in fractal T4 and 100cm, you will not ask for raid in easy mode.

 

But what about the players that *aren't* experienced with Fractal T4 and 100CM and have no interest in being so?

 

>any change to these mechanic it isn't the same anymore.

 

Granted, but if nothing changed then it wouldn't be a different mode. The entire point is to make *some* changes, the question is *what* changes.

 

>IF you are only interested with the raid loot and not the raid itself, then you shouldn't ask for easy raid. you should fight for them to have the raid loot provided in other means. we have a few issues and interest here with people requesting for raid easy mode because not everyone interested to learn raids at all. There is nothing else that make current raider feel accomplished that is the legendary armor. if this armor is accessible by other easy mean, then i don't think the current raid community going to be very pleased with it. Anet should make a different pve legendary skin for people who doesn't play raid, doesn't play wvw, doesn't play pvp and doesn't play fractal. so they can obtain pve leg armor skin by grinding open world content. also make these skin prettier than raid armor skin no problem.

 

Read the OP, we are not discussing loot in this thread, please stop trying to derail the conversation. There are plenty of other threads where we can discuss your inability to share with others.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode

> Greens are now less frequent

> Greens have a wider radius in easy mode

> Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode

> Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode

> Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic

> Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random)

 

Your proposed changes, especially the lowered frequency and raid-wide damage, make greens irrelevant. The damage pressure is already low enough to be simply outhealed by good healers. Lowering it further on two separate accounts will make any semi-adequate healer able to do it. Especially for healers like Tempest which don't even have to target their heals.

 

Your attempt to keep them relevant by offering boons can only have two outcomes.

Either the boons will be strong enough to make them worthwhile - in which case you want each and everyone of your team in the green - or the boons aren't strong enough, in which case nobody will bother doing them.

 

The damage transferred from the raid-wide to the boss attacks makes the tank role - which is already the key role of this encounter and a leading reason for wipes in training and low-experience runs - even more important. The added pressure wouldn't make tanking any easier, so people will still fail.

 

These are far too powerful, they'd break the existing balance. And if you intend them for the easy mode only, you might as well just use the existing ones.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate

> Blues now take longer to detonate

> Blues are now less frequent

> Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises

 

The major problem with the blues is the visibility, making them smaller doesn't help. People will just keep ignoring them, they'll only get away with that more often. Reducing the frequency and removing the teleport add further incentives to ignore the mechanic. See above for outhealing.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Red orbs have reduced radius

> Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic

 

Same as above - you're just creating incentives for the mechanic to be ignored.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Bullet hell removed from encounter

> number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

>

> Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

 

There are two sides here.

If the group has high enough damage, this also creates an incentive to ignore the mechanic. The reduced pressure makes it ideal to just focus on dpsing the stationary boss while not having to worry about any of the fight mechanics. Again, the outheal trivializes the mechanic.

If the group doesn't have that, the platform damage will eventually force you to move, so you'd likely want to actually playing the mechanic. Thus, lowered damage per bullet and reduced defiance bar could work as making this particular attack easier.

 

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> Raid version of Mist Potions.

> ...

> Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

 

These are far too powerful and would break the existing balance.

[maddoctor.2738]

> The other solution would be to remove phases entirely, but I don't like that one because I believe that experiencing all the phases (even if in a lower risk form) presents a more well-rounded play experience. If you only got to experience Phase 1 in easy mode, then you wouldn't be able to experience the entire thing.

 

By removing later phases you get the exact same experience up to that point, instead of an overall watered down version that serves no purpose. In fact, an "exit point" for the Raids is probably the best solution that is also the easiest to implement and maintain, with the "exit point" based on the chosen difficulty. Of course this is a thing that won't work on all bosses, but it would certainly work on Vale Guardian.

 

> I totally agree that it is very well designed *for players who like to raid at that challenge level.*

 

Way to miss the point entirely. Vale Guardian is well designed because it has clear phases and ways to teach players what to expect in later parts of the fight. It has absolutely nothing to do with the challenge level. And besides the first phase of Vale Guardian is T2 Fractal difficulty level and not challenging at all. When I said "well designed" I meant it as an encounter that teaches you how to play it itself without relying on external feedback and on that matter Vale Guardian is indeed one of the best fights in Raids. Just take a look at the worst possible fight instead, Slothasor, that has zero build up, he only gets the Shake skill at 50% and the fight is really the same all around. Absolutely horrible for learning and my personal worst raid boss released by Anet so far, I simply hate Slothasor. That it is the FIRST boss in Wing 2 makes it even worse.

 

> You left out the bit where phasing the boss at the one minute left mark is still not "a good tank away from beating it," since they'd still have no tie to finish.

 

I didn't it left out, I wasn't going to point all "problems" at once so as not to make the entire thread confusing, better tackle one problem at a time. But since you mentioned it, damage is the next "problem" with Vale Guardian but that's on the players entirely and not on the mechanics themselves. You can simply /gg and restart the fight if you managed to phase Vale Guardian too slow. That way you can actually -repeat- the fight until you get it right and phase him within an acceptable time frame. If you can beat it anyway, no matter how slow you were at phasing him the first time, you won't have this opportunity. Plus we are talking about randoms that raid once in a while and not on set days, meaning they'd need all the training in the world on every evening.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

>By removing later phases you get the exact same experience up to that point,

 

Well obviously, since that's exactly what it is, that's like saying "if you eat and apple, you'd be eating an apple." If it's just the first phase of VG then why not just run the first phase of VG? The point IS to have a "watered down" (which I read as "fun and lower stress") version of the *complete* encounter, with *all* the mechanics in play, just with less consequences for failing them.

 

I am curious, if they did make an easy mode, would you plan to spend a considerable amount of time playing it yourself?

 

>Way to miss the point entirely. Vale Guardian is well designed because it has clear phases and ways to teach players what to expect in later parts of the fight.

 

No, I totally got that. I IS well designed, and I don't dispute that. But it's like. . . a particularly spicy curry. I love spicy curry, but not everyone does. I could eat a curry and say "that is a very well crafted curry, it has an excellent balance of flavors, lovely textures to the ingredients, etc." And that may be true, but to someone with a low tolerance to heat, they might respond "that's too spicy!" The features that I enjoy about it are irrelevant to that other person, because the spice overwhelms them, to that person. They can never enjoy that particular blend. But if there were a version with the same texture and balance, but less heat to it, they could enjoy it, and appreciate the balance and flavor that I do.

 

I will never enjoy the raids at their current challenge level, but I could very much enjoy the same mechanics, without the high failure rate.

 

Until it has that low failure rate, the "teachable mechanics" of it are nice, I can recognize their quality, but I cannot enjoy the experience myself.

 

>But since you mentioned it, damage is the next "problem" with Vale Guardian but that's on the players entirely and not on the mechanics themselves. You can simply /gg and restart the fight if you managed to phase Vale Guardian too slow. That way you can actually -repeat- the fight until you get it right and phase him within an acceptable time frame.

 

Unles you have no interest in playing a game where you /gg if you don't phase it fast enough and keep repeating the encounter until your DPS improves, in which case you're just out of luck at the moment. Hence the need for an easy mode where you wouldn't have to /gg if you don't phase it fast enough and keep repeating the encounter until your DPS improves, because your DPS would probably be fine the first time.

 

>If you can beat it anyway, no matter how slow you were at phasing him the first time, you won't have this opportunity.

 

No, if you really *wanted* to you could /gg all you wanted, I just don't see the point.

 

>Plus we are talking about randoms that raid once in a while and not on set days, meaning they'd need all the training in the world on every evening.

 

But again, the point is to succeed, not to train to succeed. If they want to train then they can. If they have no interest in training then they shouldn't have to.

[Talindra.4958]

you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> I am curious, if they did make an easy mode, would you plan to spend a considerable amount of time playing it yourself?

 

It depends on how it was implemented. I still play T1 fractals from time to time. I'd be more curious to know if those asking for an easy mode for the Raids would spend a considerable amount of time playing it, and not play it once or twice and then move on, like any other easy story mission in this game.

 

> Unles you have no interest in playing a game where you /gg if you don't phase it fast enough and keep repeating the encounter until your DPS improves, in which case you're just out of luck at the moment. Hence the need for an easy mode where you wouldn't have to /gg if you don't phase it fast enough and keep repeating the encounter until your DPS improves, because your DPS would probably be fine the first time.

>

 

The idea of using gg when you don't reach the "proper" dps is so you can reset the fight and replay it, in order to train for the fight, it's how every raiding group out there beats raid bosses with strict phases. Practice on the easy first phase til you get it right, then move to the next one, then eventually reach the last phase and complete it. And besides that, once a team can reach a good enough time when they phase Vale Guardian for the first time, it's more than likely that they will do much better in the next phase. Troubled dps in the first phase can mean a variety of things for the team, things that they can improve and expand on, given some practice.

 

> But again, the point is to succeed, not to train to succeed.

 

Which they do, in the case of Vale Guardian at least, for most parts of the fight, as is, without any change whatsoever. Something you yourself admitted, which is also obvious because initial Vale Guardian phases are really easy for any group of random players to succeed.

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"Talindra.4958" said:

> you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

 

How is this contributing to the thread?

[Ohoni.6057]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > I am curious, if they did make an easy mode, would you plan to spend a considerable amount of time playing it yourself?

>

> It depends on how it was implemented. I still play T1 fractals from time to time. I'd be more curious to know if those asking for an easy mode for the Raids would spend a considerable amount of time playing it, and not play it once or twice and then move on, like any other easy story mission in this game.

 

Speaking for myself, if I had reasonable long term goals to pursue in it, and it were balanced to be more fun than frustrating, then yes, I would. Not forever, of course, but for a while. I stuck with PvP long enough to get The Ascension.

 

>The idea of using gg when you don't reach the "proper" dps is so you can reset the fight and replay it, in order to train for the fight, it's how every raiding group out there beats raid bosses with strict phases.

 

Yuuup. Not disputing that at all. But the point here is to addreess people for whom this practice does NOT already work fine. If people are fine with playing that way, there is already a mode for them. They are covered, they are irrelevant to this discussion. This is about the people who *don't* want to do that, and how an alternative mode can be crafted that would make *them* happy. That involves beating the first phase, and then the second, and then the third, all in one go, unless something catastrophic happens, in which case it might take another couple tries, but it should never come to suicide.

 

>Which they do, in the case of Vale Guardian at least, for most parts of the fight, as is, without any change whatsoever. Something you yourself admitted, which is also obvious because initial Vale Guardian phases are really easy for any group of random players to succeed.

 

Again though, *just* completing the first phase is no success at all. Actual success involves completing all *three* phases, and moving on to the next boss. Again, existing raids might not think this way, but easy mode is not *for* them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> Again though, *just* completing the first phase is no success at all. Actual success involves completing all *three* phases, and moving on to the next boss. Again, existing raids might not think this way, but easy mode is not *for* them.

 

I was more referring to the exit point after a certain amount of phases is reached. So once you beat Phase 1 the encounter is over, then on the next difficulty once you beat Phase 2 the encounter is done, and so on.

 

Which is also a sensible solution given that you yourself said that an average random group can actually beat Phase 1 reliably, therefore the mechanics of Phase 1 do not need any changes, so greens, blues and reds do not require any tweaking. And even if the exit point isn't the selected solution, altering the mechanics that cause the failures is what's important and not altering mechanics that are not the cause of wipes. If the "easy mode" players can reliably phase the current Vale Guardian, then the problematic parts of the fight are what is added afterwards and not the previous mechanics.

[Sonyc.7038]

> @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

>

> How is this contributing to the thread?

 

But she's right you know? People are just demanding an easy mode because they are not willing to put some effort in getting a kill. Or they are simple just not able to do it. Well thats bad luck but thats life. I mean how much you want to practise? How easy should it be? For example Vale Guardian: There is a green field -> am i assigned to walk into green? yes. i walk into green. or no i am not assigned then i stay at the boss and deal some damage. There is a blue field appearing. i move out. Thats it. If people are not able to think in a simple "if else config" they shouldnt do raids. And the rotation can already be practised at the golem inside the aerodrome 24/7 and guilds already provide even a written rotation for classes. Raids in gw2 are not that hard.

I agree with Talindra, this thread and ppl opening such threads are ridiculous. Not willing to use the given tools but cry for easy mode.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Sonyc.7038" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

> >

> > How is this contributing to the thread?

>

> But she's right you know? People are just demanding an easy mode because they are not willing to put some effort in getting a kill. Or they are simple just not able to do it. Well thats bad luck but thats life. I mean how much you want to practise? How easy should it be? For example Vale Guardian: There is a green field -> am i assigned to walk into green? yes. i walk into green. or no i am not assigned then i stay at the boss and deal some damage. There is a blue field appearing. i move out. Thats it. If people are not able to think in a simple "if else config" they shouldnt do raids. And the rotation can already be practised at the golem inside the aerodrome 24/7 and guilds already provide even a written rotation for classes. Raids in gw2 are not that hard.

> I agree with Talindra, this thread and ppl opening such threads are ridiculous. Not willing to use the given tools but cry for easy mode.

 

Can't upvote this enough.

[Cerioth.7062]

> @"Sonyc.7038" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

> >

> > How is this contributing to the thread?

>

> But she's right you know? People are just demanding an easy mode because they are not willing to put some effort in getting a kill. Or they are simple just not able to do it. Well thats bad luck but thats life. I mean how much you want to practise? How easy should it be? For example Vale Guardian: There is a green field -> am i assigned to walk into green? yes. i walk into green. or no i am not assigned then i stay at the boss and deal some damage. There is a blue field appearing. i move out. Thats it. If people are not able to think in a simple "if else config" they shouldnt do raids. And the rotation can already be practised at the golem inside the aerodrome 24/7 and guilds already provide even a written rotation for classes. Raids in gw2 are not that hard.

> I agree with Talindra, this thread and ppl opening such threads are ridiculous. Not willing to use the given tools but cry for easy mode.

 

This.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"sigur.9453" said:

> and we are back to the state where the other "disscusion" was.

> /close

 

and is it any surprise that a "pro-raider" was the one to derail?

[Tyson.5160]

> @"Sonyc.7038" said:

> > @"Ohoni.6057" said:

> > > @"Talindra.4958" said:

> > > you are not discussing the loot but you have no interest in the actual raid. no interest in fractal.. all you want is what you can get in what current raid offer in EASY mode. to be honest.. not trying to make you upset or anything.. it is really ridiculous. the whole discussion from the other pages everyday.. is it even normal??

> >

> > How is this contributing to the thread?

>

> But she's right you know? People are just demanding an easy mode because they are not willing to put some effort in getting a kill. Or they are simple just not able to do it. Well thats bad luck but thats life. I mean how much you want to practise? How easy should it be? For example Vale Guardian: There is a green field -> am i assigned to walk into green? yes. i walk into green. or no i am not assigned then i stay at the boss and deal some damage. There is a blue field appearing. i move out. Thats it. If people are not able to think in a simple "if else config" they shouldnt do raids. And the rotation can already be practised at the golem inside the aerodrome 24/7 and guilds already provide even a written rotation for classes. Raids in gw2 are not that hard.

> I agree with Talindra, this thread and ppl opening such threads are ridiculous. Not willing to use the given tools but cry for easy mode.

 

I mean if you want to start the drama again... we can go back to the original and continue the war for another 5 months, if that’s what you really want to do...

 

But this thread as a whole is discussing about what an easy mode VG would look like and yet we have the same cast of characters jumping in here...again and trying to cause unwarranted trouble.

[Sephylon.4938]

Another thought: what if we buffed the pre event, but added a scaing fa tor to it? As a reminder please do not make this personal. Discuss the merits and problems of an idea, not the person. There are no absolutes here

[Dzjudz.9142]

For the extreme easy mode proponents, VG easy mode wouldn't be achieved until you can walk in with 10 boost gear exotic soldier rangers without runes/sigils on longbow and just stand in the middle of the arena pew-pewing the boss without threat of dying.

 

No punishment for green mechanic failure? No punishment for blue mechanic failure? Would you even need a toughness check to see who is tanking or is toughness checking already too elitist? Maybe VG should be stationary in the middle and not attack?

 

In the end you end up with a pure dps golem, worse than Mursaat Overseer, if you keep skipping the necessity of mechanics. Raids are about learning mechanics and executing them properly.

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Greens take longer to detonate in easy mode

> > Greens are now less frequent

> > Greens have a wider radius in easy mode

> > Greens have a fixed spawn location in easy mode

> > Greens have reduced number of people required in easy mode

> > Greens have reduced damage, damage has been moved to boss' auto to make that the threat over the mechanic

> > Greens give people that do them a buff (offensive or defensive, either/or, both, or 1 of the two at random)

>

> Your proposed changes, especially the lowered frequency and raid-wide damage, make greens irrelevant. The damage pressure is already low enough to be simply outhealed by good healers. Lowering it further on two separate accounts will make any semi-adequate healer able to do it. Especially for healers like Tempest which don't even have to target their heals.

>

> Your attempt to keep them relevant by offering boons can only have two outcomes.

> Either the boons will be strong enough to make them worthwhile - in which case you want each and everyone of your team in the green - or the boons aren't strong enough, in which case nobody will bother doing them.

>

> The damage transferred from the raid-wide to the boss attacks makes the tank role - which is already the key role of this encounter and a leading reason for wipes in training and low-experience runs - even more important. The added pressure wouldn't make tanking any easier, so people will still fail.

>

> These are far too powerful, they'd break the existing balance. And if you intend them for the easy mode only, you might as well just use the existing ones.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Blues do not teleport, damage has been increased to compensate

> > Blues now take longer to detonate

> > Blues are now less frequent

> > Blues have reduced radius for teleporting people

> > Blues are now louder and drown out all other noises

>

> The major problem with the blues is the visibility, making them smaller doesn't help. People will just keep ignoring them, they'll only get away with that more often. Reducing the frequency and removing the teleport add further incentives to ignore the mechanic. See above for outhealing.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Red orbs have reduced radius

> > Red orbs have reduced damage, boss' damage increased to make it a threat instead of this mechanic

>

> Same as above - you're just creating incentives for the mechanic to be ignored.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Bullet hell removed from encounter

> > number of bullets in the encounter is reduced, damage per bullet increased, or boss damage increased to make it the main threat of the encounter instead of mechanics

> >

> > Bullet storm (vg's break bar) damage reduced, either by reducing the damage of the bullets, or reducing the break bar

>

> There are two sides here.

> If the group has high enough damage, this also creates an incentive to ignore the mechanic. The reduced pressure makes it ideal to just focus on dpsing the stationary boss while not having to worry about any of the fight mechanics. Again, the outheal trivializes the mechanic.

> If the group doesn't have that, the platform damage will eventually force you to move, so you'd likely want to actually playing the mechanic. Thus, lowered damage per bullet and reduced defiance bar could work as making this particular attack easier.

>

> > @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> > Raid version of Mist Potions.

> > ...

> > Raids as a whole: Introduce a version of mistlock singularity in raids by adding it to masteries that gives players shield that can prevent death 1 or more times depending on masteries learned.

>

> These are far too powerful and would break the existing balance.

 

Thank you for the response,I noticed that there were some mechanics that you did not mention, for instance trading in the teleports of blues for more damage, what are your thoughts on this? Additionally, some of the newer suggestions I've placed seems to be missing, may I ask for your opinions on those should you have the time for them? I also forgot to mention the proposals for the floors in my original post, thank you for the reminder.

[Cerioth.7062]

Ok fine. Let's pretend there would be an easy mode.

 

Before we discuss how each individual boss would be tuned down mechanic wise, we need to decide **the goal and the objective** of these changes.

 

What would you want to achieve? What is the ultimate goal? Do you want the easy mode to serve as a training session for normal modes or something else?

[Sephylon.4938]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with.

 

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Cerioth.7062" said:

> Ok fine. Let's pretend there would be an easy mode.

>

> Before we discuss how each individual boss would be tuned down mechanic wise, we need to decide **the goal and the objective** of these changes.

>

> What would you want to achieve? What is the ultimate goal? Do you want the easy mode to serve as a training session for normal modes or something else?

 

Page 2 has you. I also said this because it is the first step in designing something meaningful.

 

[Shikaru.7618]

> @"Sephylon.4938" said:

> First and foremost, the purpose of this is to give a simplified version of raid bosses to serve as a means to introduce them to, and practice mechanics, to get their feet wet so to speak on mechanically heavy, either as an instance in and of its own with scaled back mechanics, or as suggested, as an extra option in the training golem to duplicate the raid environment in a more controlled setting. Secondly, this aims to ease some of the anxieties certain people feel towards raids, while making it easier for them to meet like minded individuals that they can hopefully progress with.

 

You're conflating the problem statement with the solution statement.

 

 

**Problem Statement**

_Players with lesser gameplay skill/knowledge and/or inability to play in a group either for real life or in game social reasons, do not have access to the story experience, reward structure and gameplay mechanics that the current raids have to offer._

 

The two questions that follow are

1. Is this a problem worth solving?

2. What is the best solution to solve this problem?

 

We should assume that for the purposes of this thread, number 1 is a given yes which leaves 2, what is the best solution to said problem.

 

**Solutions to lesser gameplay skill/knowledge**

1. Create a more forgiving version of the boss with eased up versions of existing mechanics. -this is the solution that everyone in this thread seems to be pursuing.

2. Create a mode that leaves the mechanics unchanged but with better hand holding features to guide players through the boss. An implementation of this could be something like the voice of Rytlock calling out every single green and blue circle, warnings when you're standing in front of VG, warnings when seekers are getting close etc.

3. A mode where boss health doesn't reset after a wipe so you can continue from where you failed.

4. Create a test golem where you can practice any mechanic you wanted.

 

**Solutions to inability to group**

1. This space is outside of the scope of this thread but would involve a better LFG that allow you to search more specifically for the type of player you want to group with (both attitude and skill level).

 

Everyone in this thread is fixated on coming up with mechanics that are easier and not thinking of other alternatives that could potentially better serve your needs. Solution 2 would be a true training wheels mode while 3 offers victory as an inevitability. I don't want to get into reward structure since that would sidetrack this discussion significantly.