The State of PvE balance

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Funky.4861" said:

> > @"Vrita.7846" said:

>

> > The reason MS hit as hard as it did was because you'd usually stack as many dmg modifiers as you can on it. MS got 20% more dmg from the fire traitline, if you're running air (which you would for fractals and KC) you would get 20% on stunned enemies from tempest defense, an addition 20% on enemies below 50% hp, then you would get a free 15% crit chance from Weaver, 7% more dmg with swiftness, 10% more dmg from double attuning, then you would get a 270 power bonus for being in fire attunement, then there's the stat conversions: 7% of your precision is converted into ferocity and 14% of your power is converted into ferocity, and then the ferocity bonus for wielding lightning hammer, then of course banners, EA, frost spirit, 25 might, 25 vuln, and food. MS by itself doesn't really hit that hard, it requires the ridiculous amount of dmg modifiers to hit the kind of numbers it did. MS was a high risk/high reward skill, now it's a high risk/mediocre reward skill.

>

> This. Necro has very few damage modifiers, no blocks, invulns, rebounds, reflects, arcane shields etc.

> What if anet gave other classes an epidemic-like skill? What would happen to necros then? I believe necros would be completely obsolete. Epidemic is not the problem, it's necro's low damage compared to any other dps build.

 

Necro's low damage is a direct result of the ability to epi bounce.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> Necro's low damage is a direct result of the ability to epi bounce.

That's absolutely untrue. Necro low damage has been explained away by many things (big hp pool, second HP bar, now by epi), but in reality necro has ended up in this situation for one reason only. It was just way too good in PvP, and during skill balancing its PvE side always suffered due to that.

Notice, that power necro damage is not so good as well, and that build _doesn't_ benefit from epi at all.

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Necro's low damage is a direct result of the ability to epi bounce.

> That's absolutely untrue. Necro low damage has been explained away by many things (big hp pool, second HP bar, now by epi), but in reality necro has ended up in this situation for one reason only. It was just way too good in PvP, and during skill balancing its PvE side always suffered due to that.

> Notice, that power necro damage is not so good as well, and that build _doesn't_ benefit from epi at all.

>

>

 

OK, let me rephrase it: as long as epi bounce exists, condi necro can't have high dps.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > Necro's low damage is a direct result of the ability to epi bounce.

> > That's absolutely untrue. Necro low damage has been explained away by many things (big hp pool, second HP bar, now by epi), but in reality necro has ended up in this situation for one reason only. It was just way too good in PvP, and during skill balancing its PvE side always suffered due to that.

> > Notice, that power necro damage is not so good as well, and that build _doesn't_ benefit from epi at all.

> >

> >

>

> OK, let me rephrase it: as long as epi bounce exists, condi necro can't have high dps.

 

I see we like shifting the goal post.

 

Necro can't be good because X is always the community response. You know why Necro can't be good, it's the community....funny how when they are good we get people complaining about just "How" good they are and "How" its always some abusive mechanic.

[ButcherofMalakir.4067]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > Necro's low damage is a direct result of the ability to epi bounce.

> > > That's absolutely untrue. Necro low damage has been explained away by many things (big hp pool, second HP bar, now by epi), but in reality necro has ended up in this situation for one reason only. It was just way too good in PvP, and during skill balancing its PvE side always suffered due to that.

> > > Notice, that power necro damage is not so good as well, and that build _doesn't_ benefit from epi at all.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > OK, let me rephrase it: as long as epi bounce exists, condi necro can't have high dps.

>

> I see we like shifting the goal post.

>

> Necro can't be good because X is always the community response. You know why Necro can't be good, it's the community....funny how when they are good we get people complaining about just "How" good they are and "How" its always some abusive mechanic.

 

Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

 

Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

 

[ysnake.3619]

> @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> PvE needs no balance...

>

> pvE needs to be in first place only FUN for everybody, interestign to play and provide for all of its classes diversive playstyles, so that all classes are in PvE useful, due to having strenths and weaknesses in their roles of how you can play the classes, as either Damage Dealer, Supporter or Defender/Crowd Controler in which no class should extremely outperform in any of those 3 categories the other classes so much, that players think of Class X being "useless", only because Class Y, Z and A are like tripple as much effective in doing somethign specific, that Class X has absolutely no chance to be considered at all to be taken with you into instanced group content, like Dungeons, or specifically Raids, which are Sub Pve Content, which are the only areas where PvE needs to be "balanced".

>

> Aside of these instanced ares doesn't pvE need balance at all and the game would be much more fun and interesting, if we would have in PvE as part of our character progression somethign similar again, like PvE Only Skills, where just fun, style and effectivity stand in focus first in regard of skil ldesign, to make pvE an awesome gamign experience with the strongest goal of creating fun for the player.. because thats what players actualyl want to have in first tine, when playing PvE.

> Balance is solely somethign for PvP and WvW and any kind of form of player competition, which are Dungeons and Raids in PvE - competition to be taken into the group, unless you create your own group

>

> Scourges need to be nerfed hard, yes, but only for PvP and WvW.. in PvE they can stay how they are.. because 10 NPC monsters won't ever complain ,if they get killed from their ridiculous super cancerous huge AOE Condition Spam of a Scourge using its massively overpowered skills

> But players in fact will do complain about something like that, when you die in seconds, without a chance to avoid this garbage, because the whoel screen gets clustered full in seconds with their way too huge AoE condi bombs, forcing you to fight therm from wide range, if you can, just to stay safe from getting condi nuked to death instantly. **No class in this game should ever have in competitive game modes the ability to somehow instant kill other players!!**

> This is an absolute no go and games, which have this kind of problems that there are instant kill builds in the game, just show, that the people responsible for it have seemingly no clues of how to balance their classes/games - most likely due to not really playing their own game self to realize, what nonsense they added to the game and that they should get rid of it ASAP again.

> Stuff like this happens only, when 99% of the games combat system gets ignored for 6 years to be adjusted, doing permanently only number changes on skills and traits and calling the results of that then "balance".

 

I do not want to be rude, but you do realize that Scourge (if you take away Epidemic and how it functions) is the worst single-target spec (as well as the rest of the Necro specs).

 

Yes, we would like our classes to be super fun to play, so that we can enjoy this and that - Open World PvE has places for all these guys. You want to play a Rifle Warrior who only knocks back? You play a damn Rifle Warrior who only knocks back. You want to a guy who just runs around and rezzes people? You do that.

 

When it comes down to PvE high-end balance, that's where numbers take over as well... good luck trying to down any boss (or get in any groups) being a knock-back Rifle Warrior who only likes to Rez people. There should be high-end PvE balance (how ArenaNet wants each class represented, let's take a look at that actually):

Elementalist - mage who summons high-punching magic while others take a beating

Ranger - Condition-spamming Soulbeast or Healing/Buffer Druid

Warrior - big-weaponed powerhouse who carries flags into the battle to yell RAWR - or just guy who likes to burns things down with a torch

Thief - uhm

 

Every class should have its signature, be it in Open World or high-end PvE - when you're comparing to WoW THAT'S what Blizzard is doing right. Let's take a look at their stuff for example:

Frost Death Knight - dual wielding force of terror who uses ice as a form of strength to deliver super powerful (big numbers) attacks

Affliction Warlock - a mage who deals with curses, inflicts agony and uses souls as a resource

Arcane Mage - a wizard who uses the volatile Arcane magic to deal powerful attacks, but must use the Arcane magic wisely (only DPS class that goes out of mana if they screw up)

Assassination Rogue - a rogue who specializes in dealing super-powerful blows... just like an assassin

 

As you can see, WoW has a clear definition of what a class should be and most of their classes remained the same - even when they did a major overhaul of the class/spec, it always had a niche. GW2 needs to give classes their own unique feel. What I feel is that GW2 focuses way too much on mechanics of the game and not the feel of the game... kinda hard to explain I guess.

 

Well, that's a wall of text uhm... - praise Joko!

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

>

> Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

>

 

Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> > It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

> >

> > Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

> >

>

> Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

 

Whoa is me the problems of pressing buttons!!!

 

Apparently you can sit on your throne at the ele kingdom of being jack of all master of all because you have a perception that what you do is the hardest thing in the game.

It's not but i can understand why you think ele is somehow unique. Reminder Condi Engi has a equally complex rotation and is still far and away behind Ele and has been for several metas now.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> > > It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

> > >

> > > Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

> > >

> >

> > Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

>

> Whoa is me the problems of pressing buttons!!!

>

> Apparently you can sit on your throne at the ele kingdom of being jack of all master of all because you have a perception that what you do is the hardest thing in the game.

> It's not but i can understand why you think ele is somehow unique. Reminder Condi Engi has a equally complex rotation and is still far and away behind Ele and has been for several metas now.

 

Read carefully the post you quoted and highlight for me the phrase "complex rotation".

[Xantaria.8726]

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> > > > It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

> > > >

> > > > Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

> >

> > Whoa is me the problems of pressing buttons!!!

> >

> > Apparently you can sit on your throne at the ele kingdom of being jack of all master of all because you have a perception that what you do is the hardest thing in the game.

> > It's not but i can understand why you think ele is somehow unique. Reminder Condi Engi has a equally complex rotation and is still far and away behind Ele and has been for several metas now.

>

> Read carefully the post you quoted and highlight for me the phrase "complex rotation".

 

I agree with Feanor, ele has the highest dmg potential cause of it flaws, meaning very low health pool, def, not many or none support skills for group, no cc skills or some which require yourself do go on attutements which make you useless for some sec in return, high depending on group buffs as correct tanking. So of course he shits out dmg, cause thats what the espec waever was made for. Tempest was a little more supportic and should have been a support spec in the first place, so yeah he deserved a nerf, though they overdid it.

To cry that ele was always king of the hill and marking all who argue against the weaver nerf as people which think of themself as kings is just childish. At least bring some solid arguments into a discussion.

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> > It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

> >

> > Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

> >

>

> Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

 

See? Apparently it's not the epi which prevents necro from having competitive dps. So, since it's the only thing that keeps necro afloat, and nerfing it won't give the class any competitive dps back, perhaps we shouldn't be so eager to just axe it.

 

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> I agree with Feanor, ele has the highest dmg potential cause of it flaws, meaning very low health pool, def, not many or none support skills for group, no cc skills or some which require yourself do go on attutements which make you useless for some sec in return, high depending on group buffs as correct tanking. So of course he kitten out dmg, cause thats what the espec waever was made for. Tempest was a little more supportic and should have been a support spec in the first place, so yeah he deserved a nerf, though they overdid it.

> To cry that ele was always king of the hill and marking all who argue against the weaver nerf as people which think of themself as kings is just childish. At least bring some solid arguments into a discussion.

You do remember, that ele _had_ a lot of those skills in the past, when its dmg potential was even greater, and dps differences from other classes were massive?

 

Basically, there's always a reason found for necro to be on the bottom of the pile. Just as there's always a reason found for the ele to be on top. And if one reason stop working, it's just time to find another.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"ButcherofMalakir.4067" said:

> > > > Necro IS good. Every meta dps class has its advantages and dissadvantages. Class with highest cleave cannot be also highest single target dps.

> > > It sure is a good thing that's not the case then is it ?

> > >

> > > Odd however, that was the case for several patches on end for nearly 3 years when Ele was king of the mountain /shrug.

> > >

> >

> > Wanna have ele dps? Sure. Get rid of the extra hp, lose tons of dps on interrupts, have to pick up stuff from the ground before a pug does. You want to keep all the advantages *and* have competitive dps? Sorry, doesn't work like that. Unless you're a warrior, apparently.

>

> See? Apparently it's not the epi which prevents necro from having competitive dps. So, since it's the only thing that keeps necro afloat, and nerfing it won't give the class any competitive dps back, perhaps we shouldn't be so eager to just axe it.

 

If ele gets its 48k back, by all means, keep epi. But don't complain of the bad dps outside of it.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Xantaria.8726" said:

> To cry that ele was always king of the hill and marking all who argue against the weaver nerf as people which think of themself as kings is just childish. At least bring some solid arguments into a discussion.

 

6 Years of gameplay is more than enough arguments against it. Ele as a base class not limited to elite specs has sat on the throne of jack of all master of all for so long it's not even funny.

 

Also low health pool is a joke given you have several tools at your disposal to invalidate that. Also its a joke of an argument when most raid encounters deal % health damage anyway, and you're not going to be hit by anything else to begin with.

[maddoctor.2738]

Great, when discussing Elementalist damage, all I read is how much damage they do on benchmarks. While they have someone else healing them, someone else providing protection/mitigation and more importantly someone else giving them the damage boosts to reach those numbers in the first place.

Plus, this is all about instanced content, while playing with others. Weavers over perform in that situation but that's not true everywhere.

You can't possibly tell me that you had an easier time beating Balthazar on your dps Weaver than on a Soulbeast, a Scourge or a Dragonhunter (or any other spec)

You can't possibly tell me that you had an easier time killing those champion skill challenges with a dps Weaver than a Renegade or Holosmith

 

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> Also low health pool is a joke given you have several tools at your disposal to invalidate that. Also its a joke of an argument when most raid encounters deal % health damage anyway, and you're not going to be hit by anything else to begin with.

 

Right, because the game is only about Raid encounters that deal % of health damage.

[AliamRationem.5172]

> @"ysnake.3619" said:

> > @"Orpheal.8263" said:

> > PvE needs no balance...

> >

> > pvE needs to be in first place only FUN for everybody, interestign to play and provide for all of its classes diversive playstyles, so that all classes are in PvE useful, due to having strenths and weaknesses in their roles of how you can play the classes, as either Damage Dealer, Supporter or Defender/Crowd Controler in which no class should extremely outperform in any of those 3 categories the other classes so much, that players think of Class X being "useless", only because Class Y, Z and A are like tripple as much effective in doing somethign specific, that Class X has absolutely no chance to be considered at all to be taken with you into instanced group content, like Dungeons, or specifically Raids, which are Sub Pve Content, which are the only areas where PvE needs to be "balanced".

> >

> > Aside of these instanced ares doesn't pvE need balance at all and the game would be much more fun and interesting, if we would have in PvE as part of our character progression somethign similar again, like PvE Only Skills, where just fun, style and effectivity stand in focus first in regard of skil ldesign, to make pvE an awesome gamign experience with the strongest goal of creating fun for the player.. because thats what players actualyl want to have in first tine, when playing PvE.

> > Balance is solely somethign for PvP and WvW and any kind of form of player competition, which are Dungeons and Raids in PvE - competition to be taken into the group, unless you create your own group

> >

> > Scourges need to be nerfed hard, yes, but only for PvP and WvW.. in PvE they can stay how they are.. because 10 NPC monsters won't ever complain ,if they get killed from their ridiculous super cancerous huge AOE Condition Spam of a Scourge using its massively overpowered skills

> > But players in fact will do complain about something like that, when you die in seconds, without a chance to avoid this garbage, because the whoel screen gets clustered full in seconds with their way too huge AoE condi bombs, forcing you to fight therm from wide range, if you can, just to stay safe from getting condi nuked to death instantly. **No class in this game should ever have in competitive game modes the ability to somehow instant kill other players!!**

> > This is an absolute no go and games, which have this kind of problems that there are instant kill builds in the game, just show, that the people responsible for it have seemingly no clues of how to balance their classes/games - most likely due to not really playing their own game self to realize, what nonsense they added to the game and that they should get rid of it ASAP again.

> > Stuff like this happens only, when 99% of the games combat system gets ignored for 6 years to be adjusted, doing permanently only number changes on skills and traits and calling the results of that then "balance".

>

> I do not want to be rude, but you do realize that Scourge (if you take away Epidemic and how it functions) is the worst single-target spec (as well as the rest of the Necro specs).

>

> Yes, we would like our classes to be super fun to play, so that we can enjoy this and that - Open World PvE has places for all these guys. You want to play a Rifle Warrior who only knocks back? You play a kitten Rifle Warrior who only knocks back. You want to a guy who just runs around and rezzes people? You do that.

>

> When it comes down to PvE high-end balance, that's where numbers take over as well... good luck trying to down any boss (or get in any groups) being a knock-back Rifle Warrior who only likes to Rez people. There should be high-end PvE balance (how ArenaNet wants each class represented, let's take a look at that actually):

> Elementalist - mage who summons high-punching magic while others take a beating

> Ranger - Condition-spamming Soulbeast or Healing/Buffer Druid

> Warrior - big-weaponed powerhouse who carries flags into the battle to yell RAWR - or just guy who likes to burns things down with a torch

> Thief - uhm

>

> Every class should have its signature, be it in Open World or high-end PvE - when you're comparing to WoW THAT'S what Blizzard is doing right. Let's take a look at their stuff for example:

> Frost Death Knight - dual wielding force of terror who uses ice as a form of strength to deliver super powerful (big numbers) attacks

> Affliction Warlock - a mage who deals with curses, inflicts agony and uses souls as a resource

> Arcane Mage - a wizard who uses the volatile Arcane magic to deal powerful attacks, but must use the Arcane magic wisely (only DPS class that goes out of mana if they screw up)

> Assassination Rogue - a rogue who specializes in dealing super-powerful blows... just like an assassin

>

> As you can see, WoW has a clear definition of what a class should be and most of their classes remained the same - even when they did a major overhaul of the class/spec, it always had a niche. GW2 needs to give classes their own unique feel. What I feel is that GW2 focuses way too much on mechanics of the game and not the feel of the game... kinda hard to explain I guess.

>

> Well, that's a wall of text uhm... - praise Joko!

 

Yes, WoW has a clear definition for each class - even classes which can serve multiple roles. GW2 doesn't have that, but that's by design. No Trinity. What broad role are classes supposed to fill in the GW2 system? You know the answer: DPS or support/healer-lite. And honestly, the support and healer roles are not only short of a true trinity role, but come with the same baggage despite that!

 

Is it fair that every high-end group calls for chrono/druid? Well, if they didn't serve the roles that they do, what else would they be doing? DPS? And that's the problem with the non-trinity system in organized PvE. It is a system perfect for casual, open world play and GW2 runs circles around games like WoW in that realm. However, when it comes to instanced PvE, the GW2 system breaks down. By avoiding defined class roles, they force most classes into the only "role" left: DPS. Where in open world play the system feels flexible and allows players to "play it their way", in instanced PvE it feels restrictive.

[Orpheal.8263]

@"ysnake.3619"

 

Sorry, I ve no clue, what you wanted to try to tell me with your posting, other than that you made a comparison to WoW, which made no sense to me, because the Classes in GW2 all have their clear definitions as well too.

The point of my post was only to focus for PvE primarely first on FUN. PvE needs absolutely not the same kind of balance attention, that is neccessary for competitive gameplay modes like PvP and WvW.

 

In PvE its only important for Dungeons and Raids - instanced PvE content, where it is important for all playable classes, that none of them is so bad, that players see no reasons as to why they should take them into the groups.

Clearly has every class in this game its own roles, strenths and weaknesses, but within these strenths and weaknesses should no class massively outshine in the strenths all other classes so much, that only that one class is meta choice, while all others practically have no chance to be considered to be taken into groups.

 

Thats especially the case, when a class either has extremely better DPS potential than other classes, or

Thats especially the case, when a class has extreme more or better access to group support functions, than other classes, or

Is a mixture of above together, while all others are only good at one thing and are due to this are then in a massive disadvantage over the class, which has both functionalities at the same time, what disturbs especially, of that hybrid class performs then even at both functionialities same as good, or even better, than the class, which is good at only one functionality...

 

In PvE could be made skilsl and traits significantly much more powerful, to ensure that all classes provide builds, with that you can be useful and helpful with your class evrerywhere in GW2, but thats so far sadly not the case. For to make thsi hapen, would have anet to split much stronger the PVE versions of skilsl and traits from all the rest of the game to make this way sure, that all classes can be everywhere in PvE viable as either Attacker, Supporter or Controler and regardless of which choice you take, your choice shouldnt be outshined by other classes so much, that people ask you to change your Character to Class X, only because it is in a certain role like double to trile as much better, than your class - which are strong signals for it, that something in class design needs to be changed to balance in this case the classes better.

[maddoctor.2738]

And something I forgot in my earlier post. Let's find the TRUE "jack of all master of all" of Guild Wars 2.

 

What's the most essential specialization in Raids and high end Fractals? The best Support/Tank that ever existed in this game? Chronomancer obviously.

What's the second highest DPS (highest on some bosses) according to benchmarks? Condition Mirage. Nerf Weaver enough and Mirage will become the next DPS king.

What's the one specialization that got BANNED from a recent PVP tournament because it's way too overpowered? Chronomancer. Mirage is also top tier in PVP.

What's one of the best roaming builds in World vs World? Chronomancer. Mirage is also on top tier.

What's the one spec that can make all puzzles in the game easy? And help others while doing them? Mesmer (any spec)

 

Is there ANY content in this game that Mesmer with the 2 elite specs isn't meta or at the top of the list? No. The one weakness, their movement speed, was solved by the addition of mounts. Now Mesmer is the true jack of all and master of all profession in Guild Wars 2. In **ALL** content types.

 

Let's see the Elementalist now.

Top DPS in Raids, one of the better healers (Tempest) in Raids. I wouldn't say top DPS in fractals though, because unlike Raids, you don't get hit by % of your health there and instead die due to having lowest health and armor in the game.

Tempest and Weaver are both below average in PVP.

Elementalist might be a good backline in WVW, but not good at roaming AND their DPS potential is now overshadowed by our Scourge overlords anyway. Also, insta-killed. Maybe good at clearing siege?

 

So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

[apharma.3741]

> @"gateless gate.8406" said:

> Coming from WoW, it's very strange to see such a massive gap between DPS in this game.

>

> Here's the breakdown of DPS classes in my previous MMO: https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/17#

> There is only a 15% difference between the best and worst specs. Removing the absolute best and absolute worst, that difference shrinks to just 10%. Compare that to the 24% difference between a GW2 Necro's 29k and a Weaver's 36k. For kicks, compare it to the 52% (!!!) difference between 29k and 44k. You cannot have a class doing 52% more damage than another.

>

> Arguments like "class X is harder to play than Y so therefore it NEEDS to do more DPS" is a fallacy, as (1) any gameplay difficulty is often both overstated and easily overcome by good players, and (2) raid groups will always demand the best and reject the worst, especially when you have sites like metabattle and tools like DPS meters. And that's really the most toxic effect of egregious balancing: Players who have spent possibly hundreds of hours on Necro are simply locked out of a significant portion of game content.

 

1. What is score? Is this a made up number? Is this how well people from the logs perform the mechanics in the raid? Is this how many hugs they are gifted? Is this how much DPS they do relative to other classes? Is this DPS which in itself is technically a unit?

2. Complexity within reason does need factoring in HOWEVER you also have to factor in what else the class brings and can bring to the table for how much loss of DPS.

 

The second point, in particular the second part is the most relevant. If a class brings damage but can bring some heals at the cost of all of it's damage while it's healing, it's not going to heal outside of invulnerable phases. If a class heals while it does it's damage then that is much better. If a class can bring a utility (in this case barrier heal) which costs it little to no DPS which then lets you skip mechanics allowing for higher group DPS then it is vastly superior.

 

DPS comparison isn't just about looking at numbers in a vacuum.

[Galaa.8475]

AGAIN.....NOTHING IN PVE SHOULD EVER,EVER,EVER BE NERFED. bring the other classes up to match the so called op classes. i dont get you people at all. " you know this drill does a heck off a job drilling this hole. the work gets done very fast and im able to quickly get the job done with less hassle. but i think i will switch to a less powerful drill so it will take longer and make the job more difficult". MAKES PERFECT SENSE IN YALL'S WORLD.

[SierraRei.8526]

> @"apharma.3741" said:

> 1. What is score? Is this a made up number? Is this how well people from the logs perform the mechanics in the raid? Is this how many hugs they are gifted? Is this how much DPS they do relative to other classes? Is this DPS which in itself is technically a unit?

 

It's the average DPS of a class relative to all DPS parses in the 75th percentile (ie, only counting parses in the top 25%), expressed as a percentile.

[JackassTheX.6351]

> @"Galaa.8475" said:

> AGAIN.....NOTHING IN PVE SHOULD EVER,EVER,EVER BE NERFED. bring the other classes up to match the so called op classes. i dont get you people at all. " you know this drill does a heck off a job drilling this hole. the work gets done very fast and im able to quickly get the job done with less hassle. but i think i will switch to a less powerful drill so it will take longer and make the job more difficult". MAKES PERFECT SENSE IN YALL'S WORLD.

 

Although your analogy is a bit simplistic, I was about to ask the same thing.

 

Like I've said, I've never raided before, but I've checked out some videos of the Soulless Horror and it seems to me it makes a hell of a lot more difference if you know where to stand, what and when to kill, when to CC, etc. To me, it seems like having high damage and all those boons is just to "get your point across faster", i.e., kill the boss in 3 minutes instead of five.

 

So, hypothetically, if you had a raid squad of 10 people on voice chat that were pretty much what the meta is right now, knew what they were doing and with all the classes exactly as the build websites state, you'd just be faster at killing the bosses than a raid squad of 10 people on voice chat with a "meta" composition but not the classes that are supposed to fill those roles. In other words, if you have someone to take a beating, someone to keep people alive, and the rest of the someones dealing damage and more importantly, EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING, you should also be kosher? For example, if you say "f#%k Weavers" and use a Holosmith or hell, even Revenant for DPS, you're not automatically going to lose. In fact, in the video I mentioned, the highest DPS most of the time (on the meter) was either the Dragonhunter(s) or the Scourge. Or am I missing something here. In that sense, I agree with the guys who said "PvE needs no balance". Even the "Raid Team Composition" guide on MetaBattle states "DPS slots can generally be filled with any DPS class, encounter specific suggestions for DPS roles will be discussed in the next section."

 

So... according to the number crunchers and golem... enthusiasts, the Ele still deals good DPS, I really don't get what people are so upset about. I'm sorry for being rude, but if this nerf means your speedclear has been "extended" from 30 minutes to 35 minutes, go cry me a f&%king river.

[apharma.3741]

> @"Galaa.8475" said:

> AGAIN.....NOTHING IN PVE SHOULD EVER,EVER,EVER BE NERFED. bring the other classes up to match the so called op classes. i dont get you people at all. " you know this drill does a heck off a job drilling this hole. the work gets done very fast and im able to quickly get the job done with less hassle. but i think i will switch to a less powerful drill so it will take longer and make the job more difficult". MAKES PERFECT SENSE IN YALL'S WORLD.

 

Not only is this analogy bad but your entire thinking is absurd. This is how MMO games end up in the cycle of power creep which leads to wonky balance across all modes as classes get creeped but also making older content rapidly irrelevant. GW2 cannot produce content fast enough for its consumers (arguably no company could) so older content must retain some semblance of challenge. With the arrival of instant 80 items you can buy GW2, hop on a hero train after looking on Reddit at how to unlock elite specs and proceed to laugh at anything pre HoT and this is assuming you have enough intellect to at least use skills, traits and gear with some form of cohesive plan which should be apparent to anyone with an elementary education.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> So go on, let's nerf the damage of Elementalists so Necromancers can play "catch up" and then everyone can bow to our Mesmer overlords, regardless of content.

 

I never said nerf Ele's damage. I'd be fine with reducing their power crept utility and utility skills however that for no real reason have seen nothing but buffs.

 

Also i don't disagree that mesmer is overloaded currently, it doesn't however invalidate the sheer fact that ele was and to some extent still is a jack of all when it comes to PvE.

 

[Mahou.3924]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> Great, when discussing Elementalist damage, all I read is how much damage they do on benchmarks. While they have someone else healing them, someone else providing protection/mitigation and more importantly someone else giving them the damage boosts to reach those numbers in the first place.

> Plus, this is all about instanced content, while playing with others. Weavers over perform in that situation but that's not true everywhere.

> You can't possibly tell me that you had an easier time beating Balthazar on your dps Weaver than on a Soulbeast, a Scourge or a Dragonhunter (or any other spec)

> You can't possibly tell me that you had an easier time killing those champion skill challenges with a dps Weaver than a Renegade or Holosmith

>

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > Also low health pool is a joke given you have several tools at your disposal to invalidate that. Also its a joke of an argument when most raid encounters deal % health damage anyway, and you're not going to be hit by anything else to begin with.

>

> **Right, because the game is only about Raid encounters that deal % of health damage**.

 

Oh please, you out of all people should know it better that people discussing "balance" and "profession X is OP/UP/XYZ" stuff care only about "high end PvE" content. As "everything works in Open World PvE lolololol" so it doesn't matter at all.