Dace.8173 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > Hello, newbie here. > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > ... > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > ... > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted October 27, 2018 Share Posted October 27, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > ... > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > ... > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > ... > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > ... > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > Thank you for having a brain. That's a rare thing in the internet. > > > > My opinion on GS for revenant, however, differs from yours. I don't want rev to ever get a greatsword. Just for personal reasons, I usually dislike massive swords, and I also think it doesn't fit the profession. My opinion on the matter is kind of irrelevant though. If they decide to give rev a GS next expansion, I just wont use it. > > Like others I try to save new player and casual player like me from try harder who wants everything to be optimal and forget about fun and playing what you like. Even if sometimes you can be satisfied by playing meta build and achieving raid or other endgame stuff by following what other told you to do. Talk big. (￣ヘ￣) Yet, while you are trying to "save" your cute casuals and new players you forget about ( jk actually DISREGARD) veterans that play their class each day. See what happens when your casual spirit expires and you decide to grow and try something challenging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted October 28, 2018 Share Posted October 28, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > ... > > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. > > Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. dude I hate to use wikipedia as a source but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism. You're stuck on a made up fantasy archetype and you need to just let it go. Its just contacting spirits through trance like states. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > ... > > > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > > > > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. > > > > Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. > > dude I hate to use wikipedia as a source but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism. You're stuck on a made up fantasy archetype and you need to just let it go. Its just contacting spirits through trance like states. Yeah, no. That made up fantasy archetype is what people think when you say shaman in the context of a fantasy based game. There are a great many things in fantasy gaming that do not 100% line up with how it works in the real world. Fantasy druids and real druids are not exactly the same thing. Fantasy clerics and real-world clerics are not exactly the same thing. However, if you say druid in the context of a fantasy game you are going to think of the druid as established mostly by D&D than you are their real-world counterparts. The same could be said of clerics and any number of other such concepts. A single manga is not going to inform most people's understanding of shaman, more so if you consider that not everyone even bothers to read mangas. Most people's understanding of shaman pales in comparison to the rich culture and varying belief structures that are present within the umbrella that is shamanism. Even then, trying to relate fantasy shamans with real-world shamans is a fool's errand as shamanism is incredibly different the world over. What it means to be a shaman in North America is not exactly the same thing as in the Far East or in Africa (among a few locations). In the realm of fantasy, which is what we are talking about, there is a clear split between nature spirits and ghosts, with Revenants in this game dealing with what amounts to be ghosts and Ranger dealing with nature spirits. Shamanism used in a fantasy game is clearly based on Western concepts of the idea and doesn't always line up with other, more global, conceptions of shamanism. What real world shamanism is like has no bearing on what a video game shaman is. Being as how we are discussing a video game, based on fantasy tropes, I can safely ignore real-world shamanism as they are not the source material we are working from. Though, there honestly are better websites you could have linked than a wiki page. It's bad form to assume a person doesn't actually understand what shamanism is when said person is clearly discussing the matter purely within the context of a fantasy trope based game and made it clear the context he was using when discussing the concept of shaman. Additionally, based on the name chosen for the profession ANet was clearly leaning hard on lore related to ghosts in which a revenant in that sense is a person returned from the dead (which is 100% Rytlock) and has stronger ties to Haitian Voudoon, Nordic Draugar, your basic medium, or a geist far more than they were leaning on shamanism. In that regard the rpg Geist: The Sin-Eaters comes closer to embodying what is going on with a Revenant than relying on shamanism. Even the old game Kindred of the East fits what a Revenant is better. None of which matters. Like I initially stated, we are dealing with a fantasy based game and as such fantasy-based concepts of shamans are more important than real-world concepts of shamans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > > > > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > > > > > > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. > > > > > > Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. > > > > dude I hate to use wikipedia as a source but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism. You're stuck on a made up fantasy archetype and you need to just let it go. Its just contacting spirits through trance like states. > > Yeah, no. That made up fantasy archetype is what people think when you say shaman in the context of a fantasy based game. There are a great many things in fantasy gaming that do not 100% line up with how it works in the real world. Fantasy druids and real druids are not exactly the same thing. Fantasy clerics and real-world clerics are not exactly the same thing. However, if you say druid in the context of a fantasy game you are going to think of the druid as established mostly by D&D than you are their real-world counterparts. The same could be said of clerics and any number of other such concepts. A single manga is not going to inform most people's understanding of shaman, more so if you consider that not everyone even bothers to read mangas. Most people's understanding of shaman pales in comparison to the rich culture and varying belief structures that are present within the umbrella that is shamanism. Even then, trying to relate fantasy shamans with real-world shamans is a fool's errand as shamanism is incredibly different the world over. What it means to be a shaman in North America is not exactly the same thing as in the Far East or in Africa (among a few locations). In the realm of fantasy, which is what we are talking about, there is a clear split between nature spirits and ghosts, with Revenants in this game dealing with what amounts to be ghosts and Ranger dealing with nature spirits. Shamanism used in a fantasy game is clearly based on Western concepts of the idea and doesn't always line up with other, more global, conceptions of shamanism. > > What real world shamanism is like has no bearing on what a video game shaman is. Being as how we are discussing a video game, based on fantasy tropes, I can safely ignore real-world shamanism as they are not the source material we are working from. Though, there honestly are better websites you could have linked than a wiki page. It's bad form to assume a person doesn't actually understand what shamanism is when said person is clearly discussing the matter purely within the context of a fantasy trope based game and made it clear the context he was using when discussing the concept of shaman. Additionally, based on the name chosen for the profession ANet was clearly leaning hard on lore related to ghosts in which a revenant in that sense is a person returned from the dead (which is 100% Rytlock) and has stronger ties to Haitian Voudoon, Nordic Draugar, your basic medium, or a geist far more than they were leaning on shamanism. In that regard the rpg Geist: The Sin-Eaters comes closer to embodying what is going on with a Revenant than relying on shamanism. Even the old game Kindred of the East fits what a Revenant is better. None of which matters. Like I initially stated, we are dealing with a fantasy based game and as such fantasy-based concepts of shamans are more important than real-world concepts of shamans. the whole point of the manga thing was to just say "hey, look, someone else had a different take on it so we dont get the same rehashed bull shit game after game, or story after story". It wasnt to say everyone should know what the manga is. And dude, the fantasy archetypes are based off of things in real life with added magical properties, and second off its all made up. And again the point remains its all made up. Clerics in real life are holy people who use prayer and rituals for spiritual healing and miracle works, thus in a fantasy setting do the same thing except with magic. Druids are much of the same, basically celtic versions of shaman that held a more political role in the culture. But, the irish had druids in their mythology that relates to the fantasy definitions of what a druid is. And still, the only baseline requirement for something being a shaman is communing with spirits. And you bring up the realms of fantasy? do you not realize you are trying to say their are set rules when it comes to using specific words in a fictatious genre? Since when are there grenades and sniper rifles in fantasy? aren't those inventions waaaay to civilized for your very narrow view of what fantasy intales? I can't argue with someone who thinks all fantasy is d&d and lord of the rings and thinks if anything is a shaman in a video game, book, show, etc. must follow the definition that some other guy made for his/her own personal fantasy world. Seeing as the name is taken from a real word, and that real shamanism is the inspiration for make-believe shamans, I see no problem with shamans being different than your definition of them so long as they share some inspiration from real life shamanism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > > > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > > > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > > > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > > > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > > > > > > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > > > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. > > > > > > > > Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. > > > > > > dude I hate to use wikipedia as a source but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism. You're stuck on a made up fantasy archetype and you need to just let it go. Its just contacting spirits through trance like states. > > > > Yeah, no. That made up fantasy archetype is what people think when you say shaman in the context of a fantasy based game. There are a great many things in fantasy gaming that do not 100% line up with how it works in the real world. Fantasy druids and real druids are not exactly the same thing. Fantasy clerics and real-world clerics are not exactly the same thing. However, if you say druid in the context of a fantasy game you are going to think of the druid as established mostly by D&D than you are their real-world counterparts. The same could be said of clerics and any number of other such concepts. A single manga is not going to inform most people's understanding of shaman, more so if you consider that not everyone even bothers to read mangas. Most people's understanding of shaman pales in comparison to the rich culture and varying belief structures that are present within the umbrella that is shamanism. Even then, trying to relate fantasy shamans with real-world shamans is a fool's errand as shamanism is incredibly different the world over. What it means to be a shaman in North America is not exactly the same thing as in the Far East or in Africa (among a few locations). In the realm of fantasy, which is what we are talking about, there is a clear split between nature spirits and ghosts, with Revenants in this game dealing with what amounts to be ghosts and Ranger dealing with nature spirits. Shamanism used in a fantasy game is clearly based on Western concepts of the idea and doesn't always line up with other, more global, conceptions of shamanism. > > > > What real world shamanism is like has no bearing on what a video game shaman is. Being as how we are discussing a video game, based on fantasy tropes, I can safely ignore real-world shamanism as they are not the source material we are working from. Though, there honestly are better websites you could have linked than a wiki page. It's bad form to assume a person doesn't actually understand what shamanism is when said person is clearly discussing the matter purely within the context of a fantasy trope based game and made it clear the context he was using when discussing the concept of shaman. Additionally, based on the name chosen for the profession ANet was clearly leaning hard on lore related to ghosts in which a revenant in that sense is a person returned from the dead (which is 100% Rytlock) and has stronger ties to Haitian Voudoon, Nordic Draugar, your basic medium, or a geist far more than they were leaning on shamanism. In that regard the rpg Geist: The Sin-Eaters comes closer to embodying what is going on with a Revenant than relying on shamanism. Even the old game Kindred of the East fits what a Revenant is better. None of which matters. Like I initially stated, we are dealing with a fantasy based game and as such fantasy-based concepts of shamans are more important than real-world concepts of shamans. > > the whole point of the manga thing was to just say "hey, look, someone else had a different take on it so we dont get the same rehashed bull kitten game after game, or story after story". It wasnt to say everyone should know what the manga is. And dude, the fantasy archetypes are based off of things in real life with added magical properties, and second off its all made up. And again the point remains its all made up. Clerics in real life are holy people who use prayer and rituals for spiritual healing and miracle works, thus in a fantasy setting do the same thing except with magic. Druids are much of the same, basically celtic versions of shaman that held a more political role in the culture. But, the irish had druids in their mythology that relates to the fantasy definitions of what a druid is. And still, the only baseline requirement for something being a shaman is communing with spirits. > > And you bring up the realms of fantasy? do you not realize you are trying to say their are set rules when it comes to using specific words in a fictatious genre? Since when are there grenades and sniper rifles in fantasy? aren't those inventions waaaay to civilized for your very narrow view of what fantasy intales? > > I can't argue with someone who thinks all fantasy is d&d and lord of the rings and thinks if anything is a shaman in a video game, book, show, etc. must follow the definition that some other guy made for his/her own personal fantasy world. Seeing as the name is taken from a real word, and that real shamanism is the inspiration for make-believe shamans, I see no problem with shamans being different than your definition of them so long as they share some inspiration from real life shamanism. Fantasy archetypes are separate from their real-world counterparts, with most people's concept on many of these elements being drawn from only a handful of sources that have been reusing the same set of ideas since basically Tolkien. Clerics in real life are not the same thing as their fantasy based counterpart. People who know fantasy clerics really don't understand what a real-world cleric would be like. If a person were to argue that they are the same or similar I would argue that said person doesn't really get what modern clergy do (or even historical ones). You are going to find few members of the cloth who would relate what they do as being the same thing as what we see from D&D. For instance, modern clergy leaves healing to modern science and the Vatican has some very stringent rules when it comes to miracles that preclude almost all of their clerics from ever being able to make the claim that they engage in miracle works. Fantasy actually does have a set of rules, themes, and tropes that clearly mark it as fantasy. All forms of fictions follow rules that help establish the kind of fiction you are dealing with. Star Trek is considered sci-fi because it follows the conventions established for sci-fi, namely the focus on science and technology with an eye towards believability. Star Wars, while being set in space, is more accurately describe as a space opera or space fantasy since it doesn't follow the normal conventions that standard sci-fi engages in. Just because it is make-believe does not mean it doesn't follow rules, doesn't have established norms, or isn't clearly defined. The entire concept of tropes rests on these rules. You've made several claims about what my view of fantasy entails based on very little information. To be frank, you are nowhere close to hitting the mark. You have basically, and falsely, taken the fact that I am not making use of real-world concepts to discuss fantasy based concepts as some kind of indication that my view on fantasy is narrow. Honestly, why would I? Fantasy concepts tend to diverge from real-world concepts. Inconsistently so in many cases. You can't argue with someone who thinks all fantasy is D&D and Lord of the Rings because that person is a work of fiction you made up. To be honest, I've never read Lord of the Rings as I do not like Western fantasy. For that same reason, while I am familiar with D&D I rarely play it and it's concepts do not inform the kind of fantasy I actually engage in. You wouldn't know that, of course, as you never bothered to ask what kind of fantasy I actually enjoy or read and I never offered that information, as it was, and is, not relevant to this conversation. However, engaging in such a straw man argument is poor form. Being as how I actually broadened the scope of what I was discussing and clearly outlined where Revenant would fall within the realm of fiction based on how ANet constructed and presented the profession to claim that I have a narrow scope is to pretty much ignore what I actually say in favor of arguing against your make believe person. You seemingly ignored my points about the narrowness of the concept of shaman and how its use in Western fantasy fails to accurately capture a more global concept of it, owing largely to the fact that shaman encompasses a lot of different beliefs that only line up as shaman due to Western definitions of the concepts involved. In your quest to classify my view as narrow you even ignored the other real-world religious traditions I brought up that fit it better or the commentary I added on fantasy elements and games that Revenant was closer to. But hey, who needs to include more concepts that are applicable when one is trying to narrowly define Revenant as shaman. Still, the Revenant does not fit what shamanism is within a fantasy setting. There are actually better descriptors that the concept falls under, most of those being related to tropes based around death, dying, and ghosts. ANet doesn't even use the word shaman to describe the Revenant. So the name being taken from the real world has no bearing on what Revenant is. The name Revenant clearly spells out what Revenant is. If you were to be consistent in your argument of real world to fantasy world concepts the fact that you ignore the real world meaning of Revenant in favor of applying the word shaman to it indicates that you aren't making this claim based on any likeness it may or may not have to real-world shamanism but because you just want to. Which is cool, but don't act like this is about real-world shamanism or having a broad concept of shaman since you've ignored what Revenant actually means and ignored the context of how that meaning lines up with what ANet presented to us. At any rate, if you are going to be so disingenuous as to make unfounded claims about me as a person and to argue against traits and beliefs I do not actually hold in order to "win" a silly internet discussion then I see no real reason to continue the conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOAvengerOo.6714 Posted October 29, 2018 Author Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > Thank you for having a brain. That's a rare thing in the internet. > > > > > > My opinion on GS for revenant, however, differs from yours. I don't want rev to ever get a greatsword. Just for personal reasons, I usually dislike massive swords, and I also think it doesn't fit the profession. My opinion on the matter is kind of irrelevant though. If they decide to give rev a GS next expansion, I just wont use it. > > > > Like others I try to save new player and casual player like me from try harder who wants everything to be optimal and forget about fun and playing what you like. Even if sometimes you can be satisfied by playing meta build and achieving raid or other endgame stuff by following what other told you to do. > Talk big. (￣ヘ￣) > > Yet, while you are trying to "save" your cute casuals and new players you forget about ( jk actually DISREGARD) veterans that play their class each day. See what happens when your casual spirit expires and you decide to grow and try something challenging. > I'm not sure I understand where you want to go with this comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottBroChill.3254 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > @"ScottBroChill.3254" said: > > > > > > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > > > > > > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > > > > > > > > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > > > > > > > > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't mind seeing it, but I think Revenant is fine as if > > > > > > > > I would prefer a good ranged weapon that is not condi based (and power rev back) > > > > > > > > New Elite for Rev with Long Bow and Eir as the Legend xD > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rytlock was a Warrior before he became a Revenant so he makes a bad example of the kinds of weapons Revenants should have since you will never know if he has that weapon due to being a Revenant or due to being a Warrior. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"vctrdlcrx.9685" said: > > > > > > > > Hello, newbie here. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > > > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the opposite, I've always thought Revenant as a warrior with some magic on it. So I still think GS as melee weapon is still in play as well as Hammer. Being able to use staff for melee combat is a bit weird for me but it works well in crowd control, so why not? It feels like playing a monk with wizard staff. Hammer being a range weapon is also weird for me who prefer traditional style over something new. I haven't got to play short bow yet so I don't know the difference between short and long bow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > > > > > > > > ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If this is the case then Revenant might be better suited with medium armor with swords. I picture it as a Shaman who calls upon spirits to possess them in order to use spirit's power. Shaman doesn't use heavy armor, do they? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Overall, I enjoy the game. It's just different with the other MMORPG I've played so far. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wouldn't really call Revenant a shaman. They don't cleanly fit the shaman mold, namely, they aren't calling upon spirits in the same way that shamans do. Shamans, in most lore, work with nature spirits. Ranger is your closest fit for pushing a shaman build and they are medium armor with swords. Revenants channel their powers from actual people who have moved onto the Mists. They are borrowing and channeling power that a person had, which is not what a shaman does in most examples we see them in. As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > > > > > > > > > > > yo just to be fair, the revenant in this game is very akin to the shaman king manga where the shamans are able to communicate with spirits and learn different spells and martial tequniques from those individuals. It's not the same as just absorbing their essence and knowing the techniques right off the rip, but I think to point out that difference is puilling hairs. > > > > > > > > > > Yeah, a single manga really doesn't do much in establishing shaman lore. In the realm of video games and role-playing games shaman has leaned heavily on the nature spirit background, so much so that when most people say, shaman, they are not thinking of a manga. > > > > > > > > dude I hate to use wikipedia as a source but here you go https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shamanism. You're stuck on a made up fantasy archetype and you need to just let it go. Its just contacting spirits through trance like states. > > > > > > Yeah, no. That made up fantasy archetype is what people think when you say shaman in the context of a fantasy based game. There are a great many things in fantasy gaming that do not 100% line up with how it works in the real world. Fantasy druids and real druids are not exactly the same thing. Fantasy clerics and real-world clerics are not exactly the same thing. However, if you say druid in the context of a fantasy game you are going to think of the druid as established mostly by D&D than you are their real-world counterparts. The same could be said of clerics and any number of other such concepts. A single manga is not going to inform most people's understanding of shaman, more so if you consider that not everyone even bothers to read mangas. Most people's understanding of shaman pales in comparison to the rich culture and varying belief structures that are present within the umbrella that is shamanism. Even then, trying to relate fantasy shamans with real-world shamans is a fool's errand as shamanism is incredibly different the world over. What it means to be a shaman in North America is not exactly the same thing as in the Far East or in Africa (among a few locations). In the realm of fantasy, which is what we are talking about, there is a clear split between nature spirits and ghosts, with Revenants in this game dealing with what amounts to be ghosts and Ranger dealing with nature spirits. Shamanism used in a fantasy game is clearly based on Western concepts of the idea and doesn't always line up with other, more global, conceptions of shamanism. > > > > > > What real world shamanism is like has no bearing on what a video game shaman is. Being as how we are discussing a video game, based on fantasy tropes, I can safely ignore real-world shamanism as they are not the source material we are working from. Though, there honestly are better websites you could have linked than a wiki page. It's bad form to assume a person doesn't actually understand what shamanism is when said person is clearly discussing the matter purely within the context of a fantasy trope based game and made it clear the context he was using when discussing the concept of shaman. Additionally, based on the name chosen for the profession ANet was clearly leaning hard on lore related to ghosts in which a revenant in that sense is a person returned from the dead (which is 100% Rytlock) and has stronger ties to Haitian Voudoon, Nordic Draugar, your basic medium, or a geist far more than they were leaning on shamanism. In that regard the rpg Geist: The Sin-Eaters comes closer to embodying what is going on with a Revenant than relying on shamanism. Even the old game Kindred of the East fits what a Revenant is better. None of which matters. Like I initially stated, we are dealing with a fantasy based game and as such fantasy-based concepts of shamans are more important than real-world concepts of shamans. > > > > the whole point of the manga thing was to just say "hey, look, someone else had a different take on it so we dont get the same rehashed bull kitten game after game, or story after story". It wasnt to say everyone should know what the manga is. And dude, the fantasy archetypes are based off of things in real life with added magical properties, and second off its all made up. And again the point remains its all made up. Clerics in real life are holy people who use prayer and rituals for spiritual healing and miracle works, thus in a fantasy setting do the same thing except with magic. Druids are much of the same, basically celtic versions of shaman that held a more political role in the culture. But, the irish had druids in their mythology that relates to the fantasy definitions of what a druid is. And still, the only baseline requirement for something being a shaman is communing with spirits. > > > > And you bring up the realms of fantasy? do you not realize you are trying to say their are set rules when it comes to using specific words in a fictatious genre? Since when are there grenades and sniper rifles in fantasy? aren't those inventions waaaay to civilized for your very narrow view of what fantasy intales? > > > > I can't argue with someone who thinks all fantasy is d&d and lord of the rings and thinks if anything is a shaman in a video game, book, show, etc. must follow the definition that some other guy made for his/her own personal fantasy world. Seeing as the name is taken from a real word, and that real shamanism is the inspiration for make-believe shamans, I see no problem with shamans being different than your definition of them so long as they share some inspiration from real life shamanism. > > Fantasy archetypes are separate from their real-world counterparts, with most people's concept on many of these elements being drawn from only a handful of sources that have been reusing the same set of ideas since basically Tolkien. Clerics in real life are not the same thing as their fantasy based counterpart. People who know fantasy clerics really don't understand what a real-world cleric would be like. If a person were to argue that they are the same or similar I would argue that said person doesn't really get what modern clergy do (or even historical ones). You are going to find few members of the cloth who would relate what they do as being the same thing as what we see from D&D. For instance, modern clergy leaves healing to modern science and the Vatican has some very stringent rules when it comes to miracles that preclude almost all of their clerics from ever being able to make the claim that they engage in miracle works. First, just because people don't know what a real life cleric does doesn't mean the fantasy varient in all its form arent based around it. They are spiritual healers, who in ancient past tried to use magic and miracles to cure ailments. But fantasy is always being set in the dark ages, which would correlate to the original, more magical belief of what clerics did. > > Fantasy actually does have a set of rules, themes, and tropes that clearly mark it as fantasy. All forms of fictions follow rules that help establish the kind of fiction you are dealing with. Star Trek is considered sci-fi because it follows the conventions established for sci-fi, namely the focus on science and technology with an eye towards believability. Star Wars, while being set in space, is more accurately describe as a space opera or space fantasy since it doesn't follow the normal conventions that standard sci-fi engages in. Just because it is make-believe does not mean it doesn't follow rules, doesn't have established norms, or isn't clearly defined. The entire concept of tropes rests on these rules. And here, there are different tropes, but you DONT have to follow them. There arent police keeping these in check. And Guild Wars is constantly mixing tropes. We have the normal fantasy dark age stuff with humans, charr, norn, and then we get a more mystical approach with sylvari and asura who also bring a very futuristic and metaphysical aspect to the game. So right here you can see it is mixing things. > > You've made several claims about what my view of fantasy entails based on very little information. To be frank, you are nowhere close to hitting the mark. You have basically, and falsely, taken the fact that I am not making use of real-world concepts to discuss fantasy based concepts as some kind of indication that my view on fantasy is narrow. Honestly, why would I? Fantasy concepts tend to diverge from real-world concepts. Inconsistently so in many cases. You can't argue with someone who thinks all fantasy is D&D and Lord of the Rings because that person is a work of fiction you made up. To be honest, I've never read Lord of the Rings as I do not like Western fantasy. For that same reason, while I am familiar with D&D I rarely play it and it's concepts do not inform the kind of fantasy I actually engage in. You wouldn't know that, of course, as you never bothered to ask what kind of fantasy I actually enjoy or read and I never offered that information, as it was, and is, not relevant to this conversation. However, engaging in such a straw man argument is poor form. Being as how I actually broadened the scope of what I was discussing and clearly outlined where Revenant would fall within the realm of fiction based on how ANet constructed and presented the profession to claim that I have a narrow scope is to pretty much ignore what I actually say in favor of arguing against your make believe person. You seemingly ignored my points about the narrowness of the concept of shaman and how its use in Western fantasy fails to accurately capture a more global concept of it, owing largely to the fact that shaman encompasses a lot of different beliefs that only line up as shaman due to Western definitions of the concepts involved. In your quest to classify my view as narrow you even ignored the other real-world religious traditions I brought up that fit it better or the commentary I added on fantasy elements and games that Revenant was closer to. But hey, who needs to include more concepts that are applicable when one is trying to narrowly define Revenant as shaman. Its not a straw man dude. What it was, was saying that you have a particular view of what shamans do. That view is very similar to D&D's concept, and althought I'm not a D&D person, D&D has done a big part in outlining and setting a general consesus of what these "tropes" do, and basically everyone has been following since. If I'm wrong and it isn't D&D that has started this and normalized these archetypes, then it was whoever was before it. The thing is it doesn't matter what fantasy YOU like or that YOU believe is best, it's whatever the creators of the game want and say. My whole thing is that you can sorta relate revenant to shaman. Fighting styles are different, but the method of using their abilities is the same in that they invoke spirits to gain power and new abilities. And its not trying to narrowly define revenant as a shaman. What it is saying is the method of action around their abilities is vastly the same. Use the spirit world for strength. And to get extremely techinical, Necromancers are a type of shaman as well dude, they have an altered name to distinguish their variation of black magic and evil spirit shamanism. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromancy heres your link buddy guy. So im gonna explain this in the way im thinking about it. You know in some rpgs where you get a base class whether that warrior, ranger, rogue, cleric, etc? well shamanism is the base and the least specialized because it is a broad defintion of just communing with the spirits. You could say that necromancer is an upgraded form that follows a more dark path, revenant could be another shaman specialization that focuses more on enhancing martial abilties and combat, ritualist is basically a shaman with a different name. But either way the method of action is utilizing the spirit realm. > Still, the Revenant does not fit what shamanism is within a fantasy setting. There are actually better descriptors that the concept falls under, most of those being related to tropes based around death, dying, and ghosts. ANet doesn't even use the word shaman to describe the Revenant. So the name being taken from the real world has no bearing on what Revenant is. The name Revenant clearly spells out what Revenant is. If you were to be consistent in your argument of real world to fantasy world concepts the fact that you ignore the real world meaning of Revenant in favor of applying the word shaman to it indicates that you aren't making this claim based on any likeness it may or may not have to real-world shamanism but because you just want to. Which is cool, but don't act like this is about real-world shamanism or having a broad concept of shaman since you've ignored what Revenant actually means and ignored the context of how that meaning lines up with what ANet presented to us. Well then don't go telling me a Mesmer is an illusionist. Clearly they meant something different because they chose a unique name. Please don't use naming as an argument because they have the Ritualist title for Revenant in pvp, yet according to people that Name means nothing. Yet ritualists are basically shamans, they use fucking ashes and summon spirits. And the whole blindfold pays homage to that, so you can't tell me that there is some link to it that Anet intentionally made. I mean the renegade spec even summons a ghost warband to fight, like come on dude. Youre getting to caught up on the naming of things to even realize that names don't mean anything, The name Revenant was probably chosing to A: be unique B: to let people know its not the same old spiritual class C: just because its altered to be unique to the game doesn't make it not the closest thing we have to a shaman. > > At any rate, if you are going to be so disingenuous as to make unfounded claims about me as a person and to argue against traits and beliefs I do not actually hold in order to "win" a silly internet discussion then I see no real reason to continue the conversation. Dude im just saying that shamanism doesnt have to directly correlate to "nature" spirits. Your painting shamanism into a box of what it can and cant do. In a game with only 9 classes that has no possible way of ever filling every archetype out there, there are crossovers of archetypes and unique implementations. Also the reason there is such a distinction in shaman's abilties in these other fantasy worlds is basically because there are hundreds of different classes and subclasses to choose from. All of those don't exist in this game so there isnt a reason to narrowly define what a shaman can do in this setting. Dude I would totally agree with you but then we'd both be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Nyel.1843" said: > Not sure if Revenant needs another melee weapon at this point of time. If they give us the GS as a ranged (power) weapon (what Hammer should have been) like Mesmer I'd be fine with it though. I think Revenent need both. Need a Melee two hander that is DPS/Defensive oriented, and we need an actual Support ranged weapon, either a ranged 1 hander main hand baseline support weapon, or a 2 hander ranged support weapon. Staff imo is not a real Support weapon. We cant even get off hand support Focus or Ranged DPS off hand Focus since we have no main hand ranged weapon, and vice verse if we get a Ranged main hand weapon, we have no off hand weapon to go with it. We need more baseline weapons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Kain Francois.4328" said: > Simply put: rev is more of a caster than a physical fighter. They appear descended from ritualist, who fight by conjuring mists magic and spirits. > > Unfortunately, this doesn't really translate well ingame since Staff is a melee weapon and we don't yet have a scepter. I believe the latter may be due to the class being rushed. However we did get Trident underwater, which only magical profession use. And lo and behold, we use it to cast spells. > > The point being is that Greatsword doesn't really fit the more agile motif of a Revenant. Then again, neither does Hammer. The reasons might simply be to differentiate us from Warrior and Guardians, who both use Greatsword as their iconic weapon. > > > This is not true. Revenant is one of the Soldier classes. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Soldier Like Soldiers classes, Revenent is Frontline fighter first before anything else. We only have 1 baseline ranged weapon. We blend magic and Melee in the same way Guardians do. And actually Revenent is closer to Dervish since we evoke spirits from the mist and take in those spirit's power and abilities. Dervish were dual class of Warrior and Priest, same with Revenant, since we decent from Rylock who was a Warrior, with spiritual powers of the Mist. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Dervish Great Sword does fit Revenent, since the class founder was a Warrior, and its based on Dervish which is also a 2hander melee fighter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. Revenent Weapons are based on their corresponding legend. Staff is melee because Ventari use of staff since Ventari was a "Warrior Turned Priest". Not because Revenants are less of a magic soldier than Guardians like you imply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"narcx.3570" said: > > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > I think adding greatsword to revenant's weapon set could be a good opportunity to buff DPS build since everybody seems to complain about how weak rev is. > > While people may want a greatsword for whatever little roleplaying or aesthetic reasons they may have, it is not the way to fix Revenant's dps... In fact, adding any new weapon is not the way to accomplish this, so it's not just GS hate on my part. > > Any new weapon added will face the same hurdle, which is the fact that Revenants don't have enough energy to use two weapon sets worth of skills + their legends. This is by design and it's pretty much the core of successful energy management that most new players don't get and sends them to the forums full of QQ about energy cost restrictions. In fact, Revenant was originally designed to not even be able to swap weapons, and although the devs added a swap mechanic at the last second, it still very much plays out this way due to the fact that your weapon and utility skills use the same resource (especially when it comes down to PvE dps.) Basically, every ten seconds, you only have enough energy to use one weapon set + your legend skills or both weapon sets and no legend skills. > > What that means is that any new weapon added will have to actually be WORTH using (short bow, immatalkingtoyou). So, if they added a greatsword for power dps, it's 2-5 skills would have to be SO STRONG that using them would be a better use of energy than channeling your legend's upkeep skills (vengeful hammers and impossible odds.) They would also have to do more damage than just camping Sword and waiting for another precision strike would--which is a bigger hurdle than you think due to Vicious Lacerations and Sword's faster AA applying more Impossible Odds than a slow GS would all while costing very little energy to produce. Also, by adding a 2nd weapon's skillset into your rotation, you are basically FORCING yourself to take Charged Mists in Invocation to get it to work with your rotation... So now, the skills on that Greatsword ALSO need to justify building an extra 20% crit worth of precision (assuming it's a power weapon.) > > When you break revenant dps down to it's core it's about how to BEST convert 100 potential energy into damage--which usually involves ~~3/4th of that being allocated to your upkeep skill (except when playing Condi Renegade with Kalla.) So any new weapon would need to be able to justify its usage into that formula, which is not easy to do without just making it broken OP. again what you describe is a ENERGY problem, not a Weapon Problem. Elite Specs add new weapons. Going by this logic we should never get new weapons with elite specs until the Energy Mechanic is fixed. Which who knows when that will happen, and we be stuck in the same boat of having limited ways to build our class compared to other classes. I rather that we get new weapons now, while also having the Energy mechanics fixed. Dont see why we cant have both. Also we never know what the energy cost may be for a great sword skills. the developers at Anet may one day see the wrong in their ways and make the Greatsword Energy cost on skills lower than our current weapons out the generosity of their hearts ( <3 wink wink <3 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"mPascoal.4258" said: > Idk if anyone noticed this, but there is one moment in this game where you see a Revenant with a GS > On the instance in PoF that Rytlock gives you his sword (before the final battle) he equips on GS before going away.. I didnt pay attention to Rytlock during that part, but apparently thats a known thing since I found this on reddit. cant find a video on it though. edit found the video 1:50 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted October 29, 2018 Share Posted October 29, 2018 > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > @"Nyel.1843" said: > > Not sure if Revenant needs another melee weapon at this point of time. If they give us the GS as a ranged (power) weapon (what Hammer should have been) like Mesmer I'd be fine with it though. > > I think Revenent need both. Need a Melee two hander that is DPS/Defensive oriented, > and we need an actual Support ranged weapon, either a ranged 1 hander main hand baseline support weapon, or a 2 hander ranged support weapon. Staff imo is not a real Support weapon. > > We cant even get off hand support Focus or Ranged DPS off hand Focus since we have no main hand ranged weapon, and vice verse if we get a Ranged main hand weapon, we have no off hand weapon to go with it. > > We need more baseline weapons. I would agree that we need more weapons but I do not think we will see new core weapons. They've stated that Elite Specs is how they want to add new weapons to a profession and I don't see them breaking from that just for one profession. Mostly because once you do it for one other will want it too and no matter how reasonable or unreasonable such a request might be from other playerbases it's a bigger headache to have to justify it for just one profession than it is to just say no and continue using Elite specs as the method of introduction of new weapons. Gamers are not always the most rational group of people, after all. > @"Knighthonor.4061" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > As for Warrior with some magic, Guardian fits that a lot better than Revenant. With all their burning, teleports, protection bubbles, summoning spirit weapons, and well ....a line of powers called Meditations they fit the magic warrior mold better than Revenant. Since Revenant isn't a magic warrior it's use of staff is less mystical and more martial, which is why they wack people with it and why Guardian doesn't. > > Revenent Weapons are based on their corresponding legend. Staff is melee because Ventari use of staff since Ventari was a "Warrior Turned Priest". Not because Revenants are less of a magic soldier than Guardians like you imply. > > One could argue that as a healing Legend the staff should work closer to the Druid's staff than a physical implement. I also do not find that the weapon and Legend break down lines up perfectly as it leaves Axe and the aquatic weapons without a Legend to support the concept. Which doesn't remove my point, Guardian is clearly the mystical fighter class in this game and their weapons are themed accordingly. Revenant is not anywhere near as mystical and magical as the Guardian and their weapons reflect that. They do make use of the Mists as part of their arsenal though, and again, their weapons reflect that. Almost every weapon the Revenant has makes use of the Mist in some form or fashion, typically with a quasi-teleport like move. I think the general theme of the profession in its entirety has more bearing on how Revenant's weapons work than the personality of any given Legend. I stand by my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aridon.8362 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 The sword Rytlock is using is sohothin the 1h sword. He's only been depicted in art welding it even when he was a warrior. There really isn't a lot of lore for any of the classes and that's pretty dumb if you'd ask me. Rytlock never explained how he got his power, and all the other classes likewise we still don't know a God damn thing about why anything exists in the game to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Aridon.8362" said: > The sword Rytlock is using is sohothin the 1h sword. He's only been depicted in art welding it even when he was a warrior. There really isn't a lot of lore for any of the classes and that's pretty dumb if you'd ask me. Rytlock never explained how he got his power, and all the other classes likewise we still don't know a God kitten thing about why anything exists in the game to begin with. I was thinking about this recently and lamenting how having a set of missions based on the profession itself that dug into the lore aspect of the profession was a missed opportunity. Could have easily replaced the help an ally missions with profession based missions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Aridon.8362" said: > The sword Rytlock is using is sohothin the 1h sword. He's only been depicted in art welding it even when he was a warrior. There really isn't a lot of lore for any of the classes and that's pretty dumb if you'd ask me. Rytlock never explained how he got his power, and all the other classes likewise we still don't know a God kitten thing about why anything exists in the game to begin with. I think people are talking about this @1:49 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elric.4713 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Dace.8173" said: > > @"Aridon.8362" said: > > The sword Rytlock is using is sohothin the 1h sword. He's only been depicted in art welding it even when he was a warrior. There really isn't a lot of lore for any of the classes and that's pretty dumb if you'd ask me. Rytlock never explained how he got his power, and all the other classes likewise we still don't know a God kitten thing about why anything exists in the game to begin with. > > I was thinking about this recently and lamenting how having a set of missions based on the profession itself that dug into the lore aspect of the profession was a missed opportunity. Could have easily replaced the help an ally missions with profession based missions. At the very least I wish they added NPC's in the starting areas that we can talk to and get some extensive profession lore. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 1, 2018 Share Posted November 1, 2018 > @"Elric.4713" said: > > @"Dace.8173" said: > > > @"Aridon.8362" said: > > > The sword Rytlock is using is sohothin the 1h sword. He's only been depicted in art welding it even when he was a warrior. There really isn't a lot of lore for any of the classes and that's pretty dumb if you'd ask me. Rytlock never explained how he got his power, and all the other classes likewise we still don't know a God kitten thing about why anything exists in the game to begin with. > > > > I was thinking about this recently and lamenting how having a set of missions based on the profession itself that dug into the lore aspect of the profession was a missed opportunity. Could have easily replaced the help an ally missions with profession based missions. > > At the very least I wish they added NPC's in the starting areas that we can talk to and get some extensive profession lore. At least they are amending that now with PoF having mentors who teach you about the new Elites. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone say Holosmith an Asuran thing when if you talk with Baraz you learn about how the Elonains made it and it has nothing to do with Asura. Though, at least they can still add NPCs that talk about the HoT Elites and the professions themselves in various parts of Tyria. They could even turn it into a new achievement where you go and listen to the lore of all the professions. Still, I really wish they had made profession based missions with more weight being given to the item you select other than just gaining a new item and skin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasdamas Anklast.1607 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > > > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > Thank you for having a brain. That's a rare thing in the internet. > > > > > > > > My opinion on GS for revenant, however, differs from yours. I don't want rev to ever get a greatsword. Just for personal reasons, I usually dislike massive swords, and I also think it doesn't fit the profession. My opinion on the matter is kind of irrelevant though. If they decide to give rev a GS next expansion, I just wont use it. > > > > > > Like others I try to save new player and casual player like me from try harder who wants everything to be optimal and forget about fun and playing what you like. Even if sometimes you can be satisfied by playing meta build and achieving raid or other endgame stuff by following what other told you to do. > > Talk big. (￣ヘ￣) > > > > Yet, while you are trying to "save" your cute casuals and new players you forget about ( jk actually DISREGARD) veterans that play their class each day. See what happens when your casual spirit expires and you decide to grow and try something challenging. > > > > I'm not sure I understand where you want to go with this comment Really? I am quite sure you are. You know, trying to steal whole cake for yourself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oOAvengerOo.6714 Posted November 2, 2018 Author Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > > @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" said: > > > > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > > > > @"Yannir.4132" said: > > > > > Thank you for having a brain. That's a rare thing in the internet. > > > > > > > > > > My opinion on GS for revenant, however, differs from yours. I don't want rev to ever get a greatsword. Just for personal reasons, I usually dislike massive swords, and I also think it doesn't fit the profession. My opinion on the matter is kind of irrelevant though. If they decide to give rev a GS next expansion, I just wont use it. > > > > > > > > Like others I try to save new player and casual player like me from try harder who wants everything to be optimal and forget about fun and playing what you like. Even if sometimes you can be satisfied by playing meta build and achieving raid or other endgame stuff by following what other told you to do. > > > Talk big. (￣ヘ￣) > > > > > > Yet, while you are trying to "save" your cute casuals and new players you forget about ( jk actually DISREGARD) veterans that play their class each day. See what happens when your casual spirit expires and you decide to grow and try something challenging. > > > > > > > I'm not sure I understand where you want to go with this comment > > Really? I am quite sure you are. You know, trying to steal whole cake for yourself Ok I guess because english is not my mother tongue using the world "save" was a bad idea because of course I don't literally save new players. Didn't expect someone will be triggered by this. For the second part I can only guess that your are saying that people should not use their brain and just follow blindly SC guide to be sure to succeed in less casual part of the game. And never learn to play by themself. But it's only a guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yannir.4132 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 @"Vasdamas Anklast.1607" and @"oOAvengerOo.6714" Could you 2 clean up your quotes? I keep getting tagged in this conversation I have no part of, and it's annoying me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dace.8173 Posted November 2, 2018 Share Posted November 2, 2018 > @"oOAvengerOo.6714" said: > > Ok I guess because english is not my mother tongue using the world "save" was a bad idea because of course I don't literally save new players. > Didn't expect someone will be triggered by this. > For the second part I can only guess that your are saying that people should not use their brain and just follow blindly SC guide to be sure to succeed in less casual part of the game. And never learn to play by themself. But it's only a guess. No one was triggered. He isn't saying that people should not use their brain. So your guess is wrong. He is highlighting that you made a very bad assumption about players who do not play the game like you do that was, for the most part, rude, dismissive, and insulting to people for no reason other than they play the game differently from you. There is nothing wrong with playing with optimal builds, if you find that to be fun then it's fun. There is nothing wrong with using builds from metabattle and SC, if they work for you and you enjoy the game then that's fine. There is an inherent flaw in the assumption you made, that making your own builds is an inherently better way to play the game. This is simply not true. The builds on sites like metabattle are there because they actually work. Not everyone is good at making their own unique build. Not everyone wants to put in the time to learn the game well enough to be able to make good builds. Not everyone actually cares enough about theorycrafting to invest the time needed to make and test a functional and working build. Some folks just want to hop on, play for a few hours and then leave. Some folks don't have a lot of time to play and so making use of pre-made builds allows them to spend their time doing the things they like to do well as opposed to spending their time struggling through the game because someone says that they aren't using their brains by using pre-made builds. People who use their own builds are not inherently better than those who create a build. Folks who make their own builds may never learn how to play the game as they don't understand the fundamental components that make the game work, to begin with. Honestly, it shouldn't matter how a person made the build they are using. So long as that person is enjoying the game it is immaterial. You took a bad swipe at other players and someone called you on it. In the future maybe you should not needlessly insult people who play the game differently than you do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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