Dear commanders: Please... command. And to those who do: thank you for making it such a fun time.

[Pretty Pixie.8603]

If I was reading this as an occassional/starting commander, I would find the opening post pretty disheartening. It gives the distinct vibe that tagging up to provide a tag and doing your best isn't good enough. Sure, having an old hand that's intimately familiar with the content is a great boon, but they're not always available. I'd think twice about tagging up when no other tags are available if I thought this was the prevailing attitude. Tagging up for unfamiliar content is daunting enough.

[Cifrer.6013]

If someone is going to tag up and just plain be bad at it, they're basically just trolling.

 

The idea that people have to follow someone who has a commander tag is inherently flawed. When someone makes the remark of "they paid 300 gold for it, they can do whatever they want with it" they are basically saying that you are free to ignore them as a commander.

 

The other side of that is someone who claims to be commanding by putting up a tag and then plainly not commanding at all is just griefing the map. It's a troll who had 300g to blow on being able to troll even more people than they would otherwise. You see this type of thing fairly often in DS in my experience.

 

I'll admit, they might be inexperienced and trying to learn how to command the fight, but honestly, if they want to learn to command, you learn by doing it first and then you can tell/show others how to do it with you.

 

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate it when someone tags up just to have a tag to get the ball rolling, but once it's going it's kind of an issue of lead, follow, or get the kitten out of the way.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

> @"Pretty Pixie.8603" said:

> If I was reading this as an occassional/starting commander, I would find the opening post pretty disheartening. It gives the distinct vibe that tagging up to provide a tag and doing your best isn't good enough. Sure, having an old hand that's intimately familiar with the content is a great boon, but they're not always available. I'd think twice about tagging up when no other tags are available if I thought this was the prevailing attitude. Tagging up for unfamiliar content is daunting enough.

 

There's always going to be those who are ungrateful or entitled. To take up the tag is to bear the burden, whether it is success or failure, so it is not for the faint of heart. The fact remains, though, that if nobody tags up, then nothing gets done, so the people who complain are essentially saying "I hate that this guy tried to complete an event that was doomed to fail without his presence in the first place, and even though I know better I'm not going to stand and deliver."

 

There is no best method or exact method to command, because good commanding is ultimately solving a social problem, not an in-game one. I've had times where I've marked areas, split up groups, established a daily message, given general instruction, and even rode someone's kitten in personal messages, and the event still fails because everyone else sucks and nobody bothered to cooperate. On the flip side, I've been in events where all I did was set up a squad message, because the players were smart and experienced enough to get things done without micromanaging. What you get is what you get, and it is understandable why some commanders would rather risk the squad being competent over giving themselves carpal tunnel.

 

The secret as to why I make a criminal amount of money on Serpent's Ire is from the fact that nobody else is willing to command it. It's not that I have some secret commanding technique passed down through generations of neckbeards. I just tag up, advertise around, and explain what the event is and how to complete it. I don't know what the best way is, all I know is what I have, and barring geometrically challenged snowflake scourge swarms, it works. Other people are scared to tag it because they don't know what to do, but the only way to learn what to do is to put your nose to the grind and suffer though it.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"GreyWolf.8670" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > I didn't read OP because he admits it's a rant, but I have to say this: commander pays 300g for the tag and has no obligation to provide any service for you.

>

> What does this even mean? They paid gold for something so we have to follow them?

 

No, that's not what I said. They paid gold for the tag and have no obligation to do anything for you. You can make a choice to follow them and if you don't like what commander does, don't follow him.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > I didn't read OP because he admits it's a rant, but I have to say this: commander pays 300g for the tag and has no obligation to provide any service for you.

>

> I agree but at the same time, a person tagged up and not commanding can cause confusion and make it difficult for someone who is actually trying to command and be helpful to get people into their squad. It just seems sort of rude.

 

Intentional griefing other commanders is something unique and can happen even without tag. So unless a person is intentionally failing event, there is no reason to complain. Being inexperienced doesn't mean vile intentions aswell.

[Warlord.9082]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"Mewcifer.5198" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > I didn't read OP because he admits it's a rant, but I have to say this: commander pays 300g for the tag and has no obligation to provide any service for you.

> >

> > I agree but at the same time, a person tagged up and not commanding can cause confusion and make it difficult for someone who is actually trying to command and be helpful to get people into their squad. It just seems sort of rude.

>

> Intentional griefing other commanders is something unique and can happen even without tag. So unless a person is intentionally failing event, there is no reason to complain. Being inexperienced doesn't mean vile intentions aswell.

 

I was accused of intentional grieving be sheer virtue of showing up on a map with a commander tag. Was running a legendary bounty train and went to Vabbi where I was instantly berated for being a troll, told to leave the map and what not because they wanted to do Serpents Ire... Of course, no chance in hell I will give in to such nonsense and just played the legs with my train. Still, I find it troublesome how some people seem to think that using a commander tag means they now own the map...

[Henry.5713]

There are times when you are tired and just wanted a quick kill but then find yourself having to tag because noone else wants to, causing you to miss your own rewards as much anyone else. So you tag up afterall. Happens to me at TD sometimes.

Those are also the cases where you do not care to give a long explaination and go into detail about everything. You already know just having a symbol on the map is going to be enough to draw in players and stop them from panicing. A tag means loot, a tag means action, a tag means safety. That's about it.

 

Never expect anything of the commander, never expect anything of your members. You are just going to make yourself unhappy in the long run if you do. Besides, both sides of the argument might be new to the content or to their role, both sides might have a bad day sometimes as I already mentioned.

[Hydroclasm.8572]

Be the change you want to see.

[chrisjfinlay.5614]

> @"Pretty Pixie.8603" said:

> If I was reading this as an occassional/starting commander, I would find the opening post pretty disheartening. It gives the distinct vibe that tagging up to provide a tag and doing your best isn't good enough. Sure, having an old hand that's intimately familiar with the content is a great boon, but they're not always available. I'd think twice about tagging up when no other tags are available if I thought this was the prevailing attitude. Tagging up for unfamiliar content is daunting enough.

 

That's not my intention. What I'm criticising is people who tag up and don't even make an effort to command. If you're new to it and you're unsure of what you're doing, but at least trying to put some effort in, then you're A-OK in my eyes. It's the ones who don't even TRY that I'm against here, and I'm sorry if that didn't come across clearly in my post

[TheWolf.1602]

It's nice if commanders explain the event before it starts, but if they don't, just ask in chat what to do.

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

I think this rant is a bit one-sided, and while I understand the frustration associated with dealing with unpleasant circumstances, you have to consider that commanders are just players as well. They are not an elected public servant with an obligation to make your life easier, and any time they put in the effort to do so is purely by their own volition, so I think you're being a bit unfair putting so much pressure on them to live up to your ideal standards for what a commander should be.

 

Of course, I do think it is a bit tasteless for some commanders to blame players for failed events in the case where the commanders themselves have not really given any real direction or guidance with regards to how the event is completed, but in the same breath, you have the reverse happen just as often, where players blame commanders for failings even when the commanders are trying their best to give guidance and their advice is not heeded. You mention commanders typing in the chat so people who don't have Teamspeak can see it, but I've lost count of how many times I've seen commanders give instructions in events, in the chat, only to be completely ignored by a lot of players.

 

Basically, the gist of the matter is that it takes two to tango, so to speak. You can't just put everything on the commander's shoulders, the players also have a responsibility on their part as well. At the end of the day we're all human, whether we have a tag above us or not, and so you'll get the good along with the bad on both sides of the fence. And if that doesn't satisfy you, maybe you should buy a commander tag and lead by example.

[chrisjfinlay.5614]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> I think this rant is a bit one-sided, and while I understand the frustration associated with dealing with unpleasant circumstances, you have to consider that commanders are just players as well. They are not an elected public servant with an obligation to make your life easier, and any time they put in the effort to do so is purely by their own volition, so I think you're being a bit unfair putting so much pressure on them to live up to your ideal standards for what a commander should be.

>

> Of course, I do think it is a bit tasteless for some commanders to blame players for failed events in the case where the commanders themselves have not really given any real direction or guidance with regards to how the event is completed, but in the same breath, you have the reverse happen just as often, where players blame commanders for failings even when the commanders are trying their best to give guidance and their advice is not heeded. You mention commanders typing in the chat so people who don't have Teamspeak can see it, but I've lost count of how many times I've seen commanders give instructions in events, in the chat, only to be completely ignored by a lot of players.

>

> Basically, the gist of the matter is that it takes two to tango, so to speak. You can't just put everything on the commander's shoulders, the players also have a responsibility on their part as well. At the end of the day we're all human, whether we have a tag above us or not, and so you'll get the good along with the bad on both sides of the fence. And if that doesn't satisfy you, maybe you should buy a commander tag and lead by example.

 

Sure - and I agree. I'm first to put my hand up and admit when I messed up. But what I'm getting at is commanders who don't even TRY. It's one thing if they're trying to organise and lead, or even just give some basic communication of what they're trying to achieve, and the players are messing it up on them. That's on the player., and it's another rant for another time.

 

But it's the ones who pop a tag and sit there in silence that I'm complaining about.

 

(This is like my most edited post). And yes, the rant is a bit one sided, because it's a rant against poor commanders from a player POV. I don't think that I need to balance my point with the opposing viewpoint in order to clearly communicate my gripe, surely? Just because I didn't outright mention poor players doesn't mean I don't have a gripe against them too.

[chrisjfinlay.5614]

> @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > @"GreyWolf.8670" said:

> > > @"Kheldorn.5123" said:

> > > I didn't read OP because he admits it's a rant, but I have to say this: commander pays 300g for the tag and has no obligation to provide any service for you.

> >

> > What does this even mean? They paid gold for something so we have to follow them?

>

> No, that's not what I said. They paid gold for the tag and have no obligation to do anything for you. You can make a choice to follow them and if you don't like what commander does, don't follow him.

 

Yes, of course. I agree it's a choice the player makes. But at the same time sometimes there's only one commander running an event (such as my example of the VB night bosses) so you don't really have any choice BUT to follow them, if even just physically and not be in their squad.

 

And while I get the argument about them not owing you anything and, at least at the core level, agreeing with that assertion - my counter point would be that if they're spending 300G for the tag (which I was unaware of!) then surely it's in their interest to get value from it by actually using it to its potential?

 

I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their in-game gold but it kinda boggles the mind that someone would pay 300G for a tag over their head and then just play like a basic player, and not command.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

> @"chrisjfinlay.5614" said:

> Yes, of course. I agree it's a choice the player makes. But at the same time sometimes there's only one commander running an event (such as my example of the VB night bosses) so you don't really have any choice BUT to follow them, if even just physically and not be in their squad.

 

You always have a choice not to follow a commander. And if it happens to be the only comm trying to run event at this point, sounds like he's trying to do anything at all, compared to you, who expects to be directed to the loot by him.

 

> And while I get the argument about them not owing you anything and, at least at the core level, agreeing with that assertion - my counter point would be that if they're spending 300G for the tag (which I was unaware of!) then surely it's in their interest to get value from it by actually using it to its potential?

 

As I said above in this thread, being inexperienced isn't equal to having vile intentions. And how should the commender learn if not playing the event multiple times? With your high expectations about commanding events, you should take your time and teach commanders how to command properly. At the end of the day, maybe comm expects players to know the stuff on their own and his tag is only to show zerg where to go? Why should comm assume you dont know the event?

 

> I'm not going to tell anyone how to spend their in-game gold but it kinda boggles the mind that someone would pay 300G for a tag over their head and then just play like a basic player, and not command.

 

Ultimately, that's none of your business.

 

[TexZero.7910]

> @"chrisjfinlay.5614" said:

>but let's be honest - nobody's listening to someone they don't know bark instructions if they don't have a tag over their head. And that's alright - that's what's expected. Commanders are meant to command.

 

I've tagged up before and i'm pretty sure i can speak for others in this regard. Sometimes even with a tag, there's nothing you can do to herd cats who just want to chase their tails.

 

Also, while im sure it's not your intention to critique all i do suggest a healthy bit of humbling yourself by attempting to lead something be it with a mentor tag or an actual tag. Either you'll live long enough to be the supreme commander or burnout quicker than pluto ceasing to be a planet.

 

[Tenrai Senshi.2017]

> @"chrisjfinlay.5614" said:

> > @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

> > I think this rant is a bit one-sided, and while I understand the frustration associated with dealing with unpleasant circumstances, you have to consider that commanders are just players as well. They are not an elected public servant with an obligation to make your life easier, and any time they put in the effort to do so is purely by their own volition, so I think you're being a bit unfair putting so much pressure on them to live up to your ideal standards for what a commander should be.

> >

> > Of course, I do think it is a bit tasteless for some commanders to blame players for failed events in the case where the commanders themselves have not really given any real direction or guidance with regards to how the event is completed, but in the same breath, you have the reverse happen just as often, where players blame commanders for failings even when the commanders are trying their best to give guidance and their advice is not heeded. You mention commanders typing in the chat so people who don't have Teamspeak can see it, but I've lost count of how many times I've seen commanders give instructions in events, in the chat, only to be completely ignored by a lot of players.

> >

> > Basically, the gist of the matter is that it takes two to tango, so to speak. You can't just put everything on the commander's shoulders, the players also have a responsibility on their part as well. At the end of the day we're all human, whether we have a tag above us or not, and so you'll get the good along with the bad on both sides of the fence. And if that doesn't satisfy you, maybe you should buy a commander tag and lead by example.

>

> Sure - and I agree. I'm first to put my hand up and admit when I messed up. But what I'm getting at is commanders who don't even TRY. It's one thing if they're trying to organise and lead, or even just give some basic communication of what they're trying to achieve, and the players are messing it up on them. That's on the player., and it's another rant for another time.

>

> But it's the ones who pop a tag and sit there in silence that I'm complaining about.

>

> (This is like my most edited post). And yes, the rant is a bit one sided, because it's a rant against poor commanders from a player POV. I don't think that I need to balance my point with the opposing viewpoint in order to clearly communicate my gripe, surely? Just because I didn't outright mention poor players doesn't mean I don't have a gripe against them too.

 

I do understand the frustration, don't worry, my only concern is that sometimes when we take out our frustrations on the forums, we don't always fully encapsulate the entire context from which our frustrations stem. So, to others it can look like we're putting undue pressure on a select group of players, expecting them to always live up to the standards we envision for them, while letting other players off the hook regardless of how they behave, simply because one has a tag and another does not. To put it bluntly, it creates an impression of "entitlement", and perhaps it's a false impression of your persona others get simply because of the way you presented your feelings (and not just purely because you chose to present them in the first place). Of course, I'm sure I've had plenty of moments where in my own frustration I've done exactly the same thing, but I would have also likewise been called out for it, or would have had opposing views presented in opposition of my own.

 

And no, you don't necessarily need to balance your point with the opposing viewpoint, but you should expect that opposing viewpoint to be presented to you regardless, especially when you post your opinion on a public thread, which is exactly what is happening here. And that opposing view is important, even in the context of your complaint, because in order to understand why some commanders behave the way they do, we have to understand the circumstances they have to deal with, which can leave them feeling frustrated themselves and thus less enthused about their efforts as far as commanding goes. In other words, if you want to solve a problem, you have to look at it from as many angles as possible, and not just from a normal player point of view.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tenrai Senshi.2017" said:

>if you want to solve a problem, you have to look at it from as many angles as possible, and not just from a normal player point of view.

 

Preach.

 

Also to add to that, if you want to solve the problem be the change you want to see. Don't like poor commanders ? Take that gold you've been raking up anyway following them and put it to use.

[Chay.7852]

OP im sorry you had a bad experience on VB.

 

I tagged up and started a t4 night attempt yesterday evening as well on EU and we succeded, all Bosses down, t4 with almost 10 min left on the timer. We had a fantastic map where ppl played together (as i think this map is ment to be played) As one of the 2 tags on said map i must confess that i ended up with only 158 % participation at the end - cause i typed too much =) and tried only to help here and there not getting gold for the most events i took part during the night. But doesn't matter... cause the everything else was just perfect (if someone from my team reads this - thanks again guys :) you were great!)

 

Also.. i can't talk for all ppl tagging up but i think - because i have seen it many times - you can't blame the commander for all fails (seen it so many times in DS for example, south lane - which is the reason i prefer not to tag up on DS at all) and if you guys are new to an event why did't you whisper the commander and ask what to do? A commander cant force ppl to split over camps (he can ask politetly, but he can't do more than that). A meta map will be successfull only if (almost) all ppl work together (at least thats what i experienced so far).

[Ayakaru.6583]

I usually tag up at big events when there is no tag yet.

Not for more purpose than keeping the community together, and give some basic commands like “ bring CC for this phase “ or

“ do this, or don’t do that “.

I’m in no sense a veteran commander, I just do what I can.

 

What I really dislike is, almost every time, there is (at least) one guy who starts shouting “noob commander” in varying degrees of insulting. i’ll report them if it gets too bad.

But then I wonder, if I’m doing such a poor job in your eyes.

*why didn’t you tag up?*

[chrisjfinlay.5614]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> I usually tag up at big events when there is no tag yet.

> Not for more purpose than keeping the community together, and give some basic commands like “ bring CC for this phase “ or

> “ do this, or don’t do that “.

> I’m in no sense a veteran commander, I just do what I can.

>

> What I really dislike is, almost every time, there is (at least) one guy who starts shouting “noob commander” in varying degrees of insulting. i’ll report them if it gets too bad.

> But then I wonder, if I’m doing such a poor job in your eyes.

> *why didn’t you tag up?*

 

See, even a basic set of instructions is, in my eyes, usually enough. I think I worded my rant badly and people are getting the idea that I want every commander to be like the TT one I heaped praised on.

 

But as long as you're giving people some guidance and helping organise, then I reckon you're doing a good job.

[Mewcifer.5198]

> @"Ayakaru.6583" said:

> I usually tag up at big events when there is no tag yet.

> Not for more purpose than keeping the community together, and give some basic commands like “ bring CC for this phase “ or

> “ do this, or don’t do that “.

> I’m in no sense a veteran commander, I just do what I can.

>

> What I really dislike is, almost every time, there is (at least) one guy who starts shouting “noob commander” in varying degrees of insulting. i’ll report them if it gets too bad.

> But then I wonder, if I’m doing such a poor job in your eyes.

> *why didn’t you tag up?*

 

I hate when people's first response is to just insult someone, especially if it's over them not knowing something. I see it happen a lot in WvW.

[Urud.4925]

Yesterday, during a Dragon's Stand, someone complained because the commander didn't talk during the escort.

The comm said "it's a 6-year-old event, everyone should know what to do. Do you want that I say "CC", "dps"? Do you want that I play for you with your account?".

Then the other said "No, but escort is a bit different, it would be better to say it".

 

I understand both points of view, but I didn't want to stay there so I changed lane with another party. Sometimes there's no one that wants to lead, true, but if you are willing to put a tag, maybe you can do an additional effort and try to give some hint here and there. If you are that lazy, no one forces you. Wait and if no one else leads, you can tag. But if you don't know how to lead, it's not that because you paid for the tag you must always use it.

If you know very well your job, it doesn't necessarily mean that you are also good as teacher. This is valid also IRL.

[Ashantara.8731]

Haven't we had a similar thread on the old official forum?

 

Anyway, I remember saying that a negative experience is not always a commander's fault and used Dragon's Stand as an example of bad squads. With DS, you can either get lucky as a commander and get an experienced squad (not necessarily experienced in the DS event, but who knows how to read the squad chat, for once) or an immature, rude, and ignorant lot (of which most don't even join your squad, despite you repeatedly asking kindly in map and say chat). Then, when things go terrible at the tower, even though you took the time to explain in detail what the mechanics are, what every subgroup's job is, and even marking the Preservers' spawn locations, in the end it is still your fault and those exact people start insulting you in the worst ways. I can imagine how that "turns off" some commanders and leads to them refusing to communicate at all the next time around.

[Lexi.1398]

Yeah, some commanders i could beg to give me the tag but they won't even listen to THEIR OWN squad chat............lol.

 

My experience in squads has broadly been a good one, though theres a few times I wonder why some people even tag up if they're...um...like that. I'm never unwilling to work with people, i'm fine teaching people who have never been on map how to command all HoT except vb and same goes for bounty/hp trains....but some commanders refuse to even listen to squad (newbie commanders who are rude AND experienced commanders who don't account for a sect of the playerbase eg newbs), why tag up yet outright refuse to learn how to tag for something?

 

I think as a commander, i should be open to criticism - fact is not everyone is me and knows the thing//how to play//what certain squad commands (CC) mean. I hate commanders who see criticism as a personal insult or think everyone should just l2p/learn a thing they've never even done before instantly or leave.

 

Luckily most commanders are good....quiet commanders who aren't fully confident in tagging, and those commanders who tag simply to do the tags job of holding a squad greater than 10 + being something to follow (like in DS where half of the commanders job is just that) are usually good - most comms i see like that are willing to learn, take criticism, and/or let others give instructions to squad/to commander to say to squad if it's needed.

 

Though i wouldn't blame some comms for being sour...commander can only do so much - if they don't know people are struggling with something because no one says anything, they can't help...and if squad ignores commander (particularly where groups have to split up) things get chaotic. But i think in those situations ppl shouldn't volunteer to tag in the first place - i get things may be frustating to tag for (TT, vb t4, SERPENTS IRE in particular) so instead of taking your rage out on people just don't tag and relax. xP

[Menadena.7482]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"chrisjfinlay.5614" said:

> > (also can you please stop assuming everyone has mounts and full masteries k thx bye)

>

> That isn't going to happen: endgame content is gonna keep coming with the assumption that the players are dedicated enough to be getting all that stuff. It is sadly the nature of the whole deal. (Well, except raid masteries, which nobody assumes because nobody cares outside raids. ;)

 

Unfortunately true. I would gladly pay double for a fully-mastered griffon not to have to spend the time doing the entire story and quest. I do not have a lot of time to play around with.

 

As to commanders .... they vary. Some are great, others are meh. The ones I really can not stand are vanity tags. Ideally, you would only be tagging up for an event you knew fully (hence commanding) but if 1 person tags up to mark something, that is ok. It is when you have all sorts of people on the map tagged up for no good reason (no event near them, nothing nearby, etc) that it gets frustrating.