apharma.3741 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > Problem is the spec is so badly designed that gutting it of damage is pretty much the only way to fix it for WvW. > > And I note that there are more balance changes today including many mesmer nerfs but none for scourge, again anet is just ignoring the issue with WvW. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the population decline in WvW is due to how overwhelming the scourge meta is. > > All that needs doing is sand savant changing to not increase shade size. Change it to something else and see where scourge is from then. I dare say you could revert the path of corruption change too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > > > Problem is the spec is so badly designed that gutting it of damage is pretty much the only way to fix it for WvW. > > > > And I note that there are more balance changes today including many mesmer nerfs but none for scourge, again anet is just ignoring the issue with WvW. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the population decline in WvW is due to how overwhelming the scourge meta is. > > > > > > All that needs doing is sand savant changing to not increase shade size. Change it to something else and see where scourge is from then. I dare say you could revert the path of corruption change too. The increased radius is too important for WvW. You would not be able to hit anything with the base 180 radius because targets are constantly moving. In PvE, the radius increase is somewhat less needed in certain situations like when you are fighting static bosses, so an increased radius doesn't really do anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinhZeri.6412 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Having a Life Force cost to Manifest Sand Shade would fix it completely easily by making it 10% (making the Sand Savant cost 30%) and the random spam of it will end. A quite easy fix actually. However, if this is done the old duration of the shades would need to be reverted. If not redesign scourge to make the necro itself a shade and use the skills themselves.... which probably should of been the case when it was created. in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > Problem is the spec is so badly designed that gutting it of damage is pretty much the only way to fix it for WvW. > > And I note that there are more balance changes today including many mesmer nerfs but none for scourge, again anet is just ignoring the issue with WvW. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the population decline in WvW is due to how overwhelming the scourge meta is. > > I think nerfing the damage is fine, as long as they just pick 1-2 things to change instead of making it all useless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > > > > > Problem is the spec is so badly designed that gutting it of damage is pretty much the only way to fix it for WvW. > > > > > > And I note that there are more balance changes today including many mesmer nerfs but none for scourge, again anet is just ignoring the issue with WvW. It wouldn't surprise me if part of the population decline in WvW is due to how overwhelming the scourge meta is. > > > > > > > > > > All that needs doing is sand savant changing to not increase shade size. Change it to something else and see where scourge is from then. I dare say you could revert the path of corruption change too. > > The increased radius is too important for WvW. You would not be able to hit anything with the base 180 radius because targets are constantly moving. In PvE, the radius increase is somewhat less needed in certain situations like when you are fighting static bosses, so an increased radius doesn't really do anything. I’m hearing excuses yet this would solve nearly every single problem currently and ever has happened to scourge. If needed let shades sit around longer so you can slowly build up to that area denial but big shades is bad for the scourge and bad for the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldtart.4785 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > The increased radius is too important for WvW. You would not be able to hit anything with the base 180 radius because targets are constantly moving. In PvE, the radius increase is somewhat less needed in certain situations like when you are fighting static bosses, so an increased radius doesn't really do anything. Eles and revs, the classes that actually do the damage that necros like to pretend they're doing, hit with skills that small all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne.6140 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Coldtart.4785" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > The increased radius is too important for WvW. You would not be able to hit anything with the base 180 radius because targets are constantly moving. In PvE, the radius increase is somewhat less needed in certain situations like when you are fighting static bosses, so an increased radius doesn't really do anything. > > Eles and revs, the classes that actually do the damage that necros like to pretend they're doing, hit with skills that small all the time. Again comparing different skill mechanics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nimon.7840 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Roxanne.6140" said: > > @"Coldtart.4785" said: > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > The increased radius is too important for WvW. You would not be able to hit anything with the base 180 radius because targets are constantly moving. In PvE, the radius increase is somewhat less needed in certain situations like when you are fighting static bosses, so an increased radius doesn't really do anything. > > > > Eles and revs, the classes that actually do the damage that necros like to pretend they're doing, hit with skills that small all the time. > > Again comparing different skill mechanics Not really. A scourge lays down his shade and presses f2-5 so it pulses. Ele places down meteor or lava font and it pulses as well. And I don't think reducing dmg should be the way to go. You have to make it more efficient to save up lifeforce rather than spamming f1-5 So maybe like this: Shades always have a 200-240 radius and always hit 5 people. But in wvw you can only have one shade active Then make sand savant a trait that gives a you a buff: Like if you didn't use a shade ability while infight for 12 seconds, you get a dmg buff or apply a lot of boons or heal allies or I don't know.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirkava.8526 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > boon groups are in.l because resist to chill replaced imob. necros are needed more than ever now. > > > > > > i run a boon comp. we rarely get killed now. you on t2 can vouch on this. if you dont got scourge, you aint gonna stop my zerg. > > > > > > and we run only 1 scourge per party, lile 1 fb in a party > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > boon groups are in.l because resist to chill replaced imob. necros are needed more than ever now. > > > > > > i run a boon comp. we rarely get killed now. you on t2 can vouch on this. if you dont got scourge, you aint gonna stop my zerg. > > > > > > and we run only 1 scourge per party, lile 1 fb in a party > > > > Boon comp?...Since HoT all the dmg has been provided by necros, first with reapers and now with scourges if that wouldn't be the case a simple full zerk blob with some healing would run you over > > =) and yet we do the running over. > > and we do have 1 scourge per party. > > i think ppl underestimate positioning. We faced NSP before, and tbh we always searched for your groups just to wipe you and get loot bags, i wish we get NSP to face again, the loot was great !!! it was always a wipe fest :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sovereign.1093 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Mirkava.8526" said: > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > @"Arheundel.6451" said: > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > boon groups are in.l because resist to chill replaced imob. necros are needed more than ever now. > > > > > > > > i run a boon comp. we rarely get killed now. you on t2 can vouch on this. if you dont got scourge, you aint gonna stop my zerg. > > > > > > > > and we run only 1 scourge per party, lile 1 fb in a party > > > > > > > @"Sovereign.1093" said: > > > > boon groups are in.l because resist to chill replaced imob. necros are needed more than ever now. > > > > > > > > i run a boon comp. we rarely get killed now. you on t2 can vouch on this. if you dont got scourge, you aint gonna stop my zerg. > > > > > > > > and we run only 1 scourge per party, lile 1 fb in a party > > > > > > Boon comp?...Since HoT all the dmg has been provided by necros, first with reapers and now with scourges if that wouldn't be the case a simple full zerk blob with some healing would run you over > > > > =) and yet we do the running over. > > > > and we do have 1 scourge per party. > > > > i think ppl underestimate positioning. > > We faced NSP before, and tbh we always searched for your groups just to wipe you and get loot bags, i wish we get NSP to face again, the loot was great !!! it was always a wipe fest :P =) feelings mutual Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowjob.7245 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Easy fix. Just do the same thing the did to rev. Make it so there is a small (or perhaps large) internal cd before another shade can damage you. Fixed. Its ok for scourge to be the go to damage dealer. Not ok if groups look like this > @"Awe.1096" said: >  > I think anet has sort of fallen into the trap of "but there's counter play cause its mostly condi damage" which doesnt really work out in practice, the end result is the same as multiple hammer revs smaking you at the same time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jski.6180 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > > > > > -Jeff > > > > > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes. > > > > > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. > > > > Anet should give a roll for every class other then a sub version of the optimal roll. A lot of classes do the same thing as scourge but with less effects and less aoe and less spamabitly. In the old meta you only saw a few class but you could still have the odd ball classes have viability such as thf and its ability to counter mages but scourge is so overwhelming overpowers in wvw that a thf class cant get in and do enofe dmg to a scorge who is a mages class. > > > > In a lot of ways by playing scorge you become a worst player as gw2 and over all gaming due to just how overpower it effects are making it less of a mages class but more of a full tankly class that dose every thing a mages can do its realty just that bad and is a real danger to players. Who needs to dodge when you have max barrier all the time who needs to aim when you have 300 size aoe x 2. Its a complete brake down from gw2 combat. > > > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > > > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. > > > > As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type as imaginable. > > Hyperbole does NOT help these discussions. > > It’s simply ridiculous if you think scourge is doing more burst than the buff to meteor and equally ridiculous to say playing a scourge ruins your ability to play the game. > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > I’m sure all us necro players are fotm scourge players but if you get paired up with Mag hit me up in game. Would be happy to show you what’s up on core necro, reaper or any number of other classes. :) The only thing hyperbole is to say there not a problem with the scorge class in wvw when most groups are nothing but scorges and the ground in most fights are strobe lights. Scourge is a very low skill cap class its easier to play then reaper and core necro. Its also boring if it was not as OP as it is now i think no one would play it for long just because of how boring it is. Btw mez should be all the boon strip any one needs for the high boon meta but such effect was taken away because mez is a high skill cap class and scourge is easy mood. > @"Snowjob.7245" said: > Easy fix. Just do the same thing the did to rev. Make it so there is a small (or perhaps large) internal cd before another shade can damage you. Fixed. > > Its ok for scourge to be the go to damage dealer. Not ok if groups look like this > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > >  > > > > > I think anet has sort of fallen into the trap of "but there's counter play cause its mostly condi damage" which doesnt really work out in practice, the end result is the same as multiple hammer revs smaking you at the same time. That the thing scorge is doing both condi dmg AND power dmg. For what ever reason anet felt that scorge a condi tankly support class should also do ok power dmg. So even if you counter there condi they are still doing enofe power dmg dps to down ppl. There is something very wrong here and this is all on the scorge dev team. I would love to see how they feel about effectively killing a game mood on there own. (Its about to become worst btw no down state is coming and scorge will be the only viable mages to play in that game type). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 If you want to see less Scourge, ask for Transfusion to get nerfed ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MadBomber.3719 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > If you want to see less Scourge, ask for Transfusion to get nerfed ;) transfuse isnt why people stack scourge. eu doesnt run transfuse and i bet there are just as many scourge. it's just a broken class Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > If you want to see less Scourge, ask for Transfusion to get nerfed ;) > > transfuse isnt why people stack scourge. eu doesnt run transfuse and i bet there are just as many scourge. it's just a broken class Transfusion should still be nerfed ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brujeria.7536 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"Zefrost.3425" said: > It's honestly an embarassment to the games design. Let's pretend GW2 was just releasing today and was surrounded by hype and EoTM existed and all maps were queued, all servers were seperate and full of life, dungeons were a thing, we had all these new fractals and raids etc. > > **You would nerf the scourge.** > > Because you would lose players because of it. Players would complain about how ridiculously overpowered the scourge is and going back to a time when the forums were active, the entire forum would be full of complaints about scourge - and you would nerf it and redesign it. Being able to murder everyone in sight every 10 seconds compared to every 8 seconds (just an example) **LITERALLY** doesn't make a difference **AT ALL** _EVER_. I used to main necromancer for almost 4 years so I can very well tell you how to balance the scourge. Players complaining about nerfs shouldn't even be a factor in the decision because there's more people complaining about how overpowered scourge is - which is totally justified. > > This is how to balance the scourge properly. If a game dev from a game such as league of legends saw how ridiculous scourge is in this game, he would also agree due to the consideration of counterplay. And no, PvE is not being taken into consideration because it doesn't matter if you kill something in 5:46 or 5:14 - it still dies very fast. (Oh, and we're going to consider the scourge a condition damage class with support. (Since making it just support would be too off the end for many players) Reaper is the power class - scourge is the condition class): > > **1.** The scourge itself no longer counts as a sand shade. > **2.** Sand shade skills cannot be used unless a sand shade is active (makes no difference, though, after change #1) > **3.** Manifest sand shade now _actually_ uses life force and no longer deals physical damage. > **4.** Garish pillar inflicts 2s of fear instead of 1s and no longer deals physical damage. > **5.** Desert shroud is reworked entirely; no longer inflicts physical damage, grants barrier, or inflicts torment, etc. > Desert shroud now causes any currently active sand shades to pulse their effects and associated traits (eg. Reaper's might grants might to allies with manifest sand shade) as well as causing any currently active sand shades to pulse shroud skill 5 associated traits (eg. Active sand shades granting AOE stability with foot in the grave when using desert shroud) This means pulsing barrier near sand shades etc. etc. Traits and abilities may need to be reworded a bit to make coherent sense. > **7.** Sand flare no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple. Instead, this skill inflicts AOE blind near any currently active sand shades. > **8.** Sand swell no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple and no longer inflicts physical damage. > **9.** Trail of anguish no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple; simply inflicts torment and cripple. Also no longer inflicts burning or physical damage. > **10.** Dessicate now draws in any currently active sand shades to the player character, exploding the shades and dealing devastating damage, granting life force per shade exploded. > **11.** Serpent siphon now sends all currently active sand shades to the target area and activates all manifest sand shade and shroud skill 1 traits. > > > > > It's not my job to balance everything, but there are some ideas for you. That is a class with more counterplay and better design concept than the current iteration of the scourge. Kind of like ventari revenant, only with more tablets and... better. Simply put no. 1. Scourge is the only espec in the game that sacrifices some aspect of the base class, to get a benefit. The skills and mechanics it gets SHOULD be strong in exchange. Imagine a Warrior loosing weapon swap, an Ele loosing 2 attunements, an engi loosing kits and toolkit skills. The skills and benefits these especs would get in exchange would be insane. Warrior, mesmer, thief, ranger, engi or ele for comparison. None of these classes have to sacrifice anything, yet they are getting powerecreeped more and more with each espec. 2. Boon corrupt is needed and a vital part of the game. Given the amount of boons spamed across the bord, the boon corrupt isnt even high enough. Whereas boon corrupt actually needs to hit, be it with shades or other skills these still require more play and skill then ANY skill giving out boons. Where not talking about much play, really, the game is simple enough as it is. But corrupts at least need some interaction with an enemy - where boons are applied regardless of circumstances. If haven't seen a single skill providing boons only if you successfully hit an enemy, see guardian symbols for example. 3. You can die trough conditions. Just learn to live with it. There are 2 ways to die, power damage, or condi damage. You should never have enough condi clear to survive for infinite amounts of time, as well as its with invulnerability skills and power damage. If a zerg stacks scourges, you will die to condi damage. If a zerg will stack Revs you will die to power damage. Thats just the way a game works. It feels "harsher" to die to condis because they are - for most parts - meant to whittle down instead of bursting like power skills and movement impairment is a big factor here. But that is the game - there are no hexes like in GW2 to spread these things further, making them more exclusiv, they are connected. 4. Overall, as people already mentioned, stacked scourges arent strong against any organized zerg. You either play good and adapt or you cry for nerfs. In this special case adapting shouldnt be too hard - people are just too lazy. Scourges do have a very finity amount of health, yeah its boosted by barrier and healing, but if focused right, you can burst down or force cooldowns. Most Shade skills now have absurd long cooldowns. Force these out and train and you get down any zerg with a big number of scourges. 5. Players always complain. Especially some classes have yet to be properly nerfed although the forum outcry has always been massive and very reasonable - Ele Damage in PVE - Thief as a whole in PvP and WvW - Warrior being a braindead class needing almost no skill to play due to a bootload of immunities and overtuned weapon skills. The thing is its up to the devs. There are much more crucial things being critisized for much longer (for years) without any sign of change. As with scourge there is a defined trade-off for being able to use shades. There is counterplay and risk and reward - scourge is by no means OP. Its strong yes, and bad players (thats sad but its mostly the case with most people zerging in WvW apart from few organized guilds) are overwhelmed and starting to bandwagon. But really, from a neutral standpoint, there is nothing wrong here. Investments are needed, tradeoffs are being done, counterplay is possible and healthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 NERF THE SCOURGE. If you have Sand Shades, you don't get to pulse the effects on yourself. And decrease the Radius in WvW/PvP. It's out of control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X T D.6458 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > NERF THE SCOURGE. If you have Sand Shades, you don't get to pulse the effects on yourself. And decrease the Radius in WvW/PvP. It's out of control. The player counting as a shade is important for applying barriers. The radius of Manifest sand shade is 180, which is tiny. It has to be traited to be increased and this is necessary in wvw because of the size of groups and to actually hit moving targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > NERF THE SCOURGE. If you have Sand Shades, you don't get to pulse the effects on yourself. And decrease the Radius in WvW/PvP. It's out of control. > > The player counting as a shade is important for applying barriers. The radius of Manifest sand shade is 180, which is tiny. It has to be traited to be increased and this is necessary in wvw because of the size of groups and to actually hit moving targets. My problem with the Scourge is when they start stacking in groups, they just become a ball of death train. The synergy with Marks and the nature of their Point-Blank AOE mechanic is the problem. No other profession/spec can stack up like that and turn into a death ball. On top of that, they convert condi, apply barrier, CC, torments all in one F2-F5 piano swipe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ganathar.4956 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Brujeria.7536" said: > > @"Zefrost.3425" said: > > It's honestly an embarassment to the games design. Let's pretend GW2 was just releasing today and was surrounded by hype and EoTM existed and all maps were queued, all servers were seperate and full of life, dungeons were a thing, we had all these new fractals and raids etc. > > > > **You would nerf the scourge.** > > > > Because you would lose players because of it. Players would complain about how ridiculously overpowered the scourge is and going back to a time when the forums were active, the entire forum would be full of complaints about scourge - and you would nerf it and redesign it. Being able to murder everyone in sight every 10 seconds compared to every 8 seconds (just an example) **LITERALLY** doesn't make a difference **AT ALL** _EVER_. I used to main necromancer for almost 4 years so I can very well tell you how to balance the scourge. Players complaining about nerfs shouldn't even be a factor in the decision because there's more people complaining about how overpowered scourge is - which is totally justified. > > > > This is how to balance the scourge properly. If a game dev from a game such as league of legends saw how ridiculous scourge is in this game, he would also agree due to the consideration of counterplay. And no, PvE is not being taken into consideration because it doesn't matter if you kill something in 5:46 or 5:14 - it still dies very fast. (Oh, and we're going to consider the scourge a condition damage class with support. (Since making it just support would be too off the end for many players) Reaper is the power class - scourge is the condition class): > > > > **1.** The scourge itself no longer counts as a sand shade. > > **2.** Sand shade skills cannot be used unless a sand shade is active (makes no difference, though, after change #1) > > **3.** Manifest sand shade now _actually_ uses life force and no longer deals physical damage. > > **4.** Garish pillar inflicts 2s of fear instead of 1s and no longer deals physical damage. > > **5.** Desert shroud is reworked entirely; no longer inflicts physical damage, grants barrier, or inflicts torment, etc. > > Desert shroud now causes any currently active sand shades to pulse their effects and associated traits (eg. Reaper's might grants might to allies with manifest sand shade) as well as causing any currently active sand shades to pulse shroud skill 5 associated traits (eg. Active sand shades granting AOE stability with foot in the grave when using desert shroud) This means pulsing barrier near sand shades etc. etc. Traits and abilities may need to be reworded a bit to make coherent sense. > > **7.** Sand flare no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple. Instead, this skill inflicts AOE blind near any currently active sand shades. > > **8.** Sand swell no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple and no longer inflicts physical damage. > > **9.** Trail of anguish no longer corrupts boons into torment and cripple; simply inflicts torment and cripple. Also no longer inflicts burning or physical damage. > > **10.** Dessicate now draws in any currently active sand shades to the player character, exploding the shades and dealing devastating damage, granting life force per shade exploded. > > **11.** Serpent siphon now sends all currently active sand shades to the target area and activates all manifest sand shade and shroud skill 1 traits. > > > > > > > > > > It's not my job to balance everything, but there are some ideas for you. That is a class with more counterplay and better design concept than the current iteration of the scourge. Kind of like ventari revenant, only with more tablets and... better. > > Simply put no. > > 1. Scourge is the only espec in the game that sacrifices some aspect of the base class, to get a benefit. The skills and mechanics it gets SHOULD be strong in exchange. Imagine a Warrior loosing weapon swap, an Ele loosing 2 attunements, an engi loosing kits and toolkit skills. The skills and benefits these especs would get in exchange would be insane. Warrior, mesmer, thief, ranger, engi or ele for comparison. None of these classes have to sacrifice anything, yet they are getting powerecreeped more and more with each espec. This isn't even close to true. If you compare shades to any sort of death shroud, even reaper shroud, they are way better. You get barrier that you can be healed through unlike life force in death shroud. All your shade skills can be cast without going into death shroud and disabling your utilities and they are instant so that interrupts and being disabled doesn't mean kitten. *Technically* they do sacrifice machanics, but you are incredibly biased if you think that they are the only spec that does so. Warrior sacrifices 1 adrenaline bar for spellbreaker, so they can't use full power burst skills. Thief sacrifices steal for marking, like mentioning thief makes me think that you don't even play other professions. Ranger and engi technically don't sacrifice anything but I don't think I've seen many in zergs lately. I wonder why. Also if you haven't noticed ele sacrifices instant full attunement swap, which makes accessing support and survivability skills built into the core class inaccessible without waiting for an extra 4 seconds or without gimping your damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"X T D.6458" said: > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > Scourge is a necessary evil in WvW because it serves a purpose, it counters the natural desire every group has to be carried by boons and try to one push everyone. > > > > Spellbreakers serve that purpose and in a way that is far more easily counterable than large groups composed of 70% scourges. > > > > > > Spellbreakers are part of it, but Warriors do not provide aoe or range damage. WoD can make or break a fight, but it is an elite skill. Nobody is going to stack their zerg with warriors because they dont provide support, ranged/aoe damage. Scourge is not just there for boon corruption, it is there to enforce area control and punish groups for making mistakes and using bad positioning. > > If its not Scourge, it will be something else. People will always use what is most effective and try to maximize its usefulness. Necro has always been part of the meta in WvW because of its burst damage ability. you just unironically pointed out what is wrong with Scourge , they are doing Every Role At Once , Support,Offense,Anti Boon, Heal if you trait for it and equip Blood well yes if its not scourge it will be something else but at least it will be something counterable by something else other than stacking more scourges , if we remove scourges people will most likely shift to whatever else has access to non projectile aoe so most likely firebrand,eles,revs all wich are perfectly counterable by other professions, heck even good ol regular necro or reaper would still be powerful but counterable does not help that scourge deals hybrid damage, I personally run Marauder's and land easy 8k+ damage on scourge 5,the elite and well of suffering all non projectile ranged aoe , then i negate healing via condi bomb and fear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dralor.3701 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Jski.6180" said: > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > @"Jski.6180" said: > > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > > @"jaif.3518" said: > > > > > > @"MadBomber.3719" said: > > > > > > > @"Dralor.3701" said: > > > > > > > Fb, sb and scourge are all super over represented right now. > > > > > > > > > > > > tbf GWEN comps were always the most represented classes in WvW zerging. not that scourge isn't broken just that it's always been dominant in representation > > > > > > > > > > So 4 of the 8 classes (no rev at the time) for zergs. Thieves, Mesmers, and Rangers roamed, with some warriors as well. One or two mesmers per zerg. Engineers were pointless. Various odd-ball roamers used by skilled players (burn guard, d/d ele, etc). > > > > > > > > > > It actually wasn't bad. I'd love to see every class have a good zerg role, but honestly, it wasn't bad at the start. Now? Like the picture says, 50%+scourges, and honestly, the more the better. > > > > > > > > > > -Jeff > > > > > > > > Every class is different, and not every one can be optimal for each gamemode and type of playstyle because they require different things. One class might be bad for zerging, but will excel at roaming/dueling. The meta shifts over time have created a need for more aoe ranged damage, and more support builds. Therefore certain classes will be left out because they either dont perform these roles, or are outshined by other classes. > > > > > > > > Necro has essentially remained the same in its purpose in WvW. > > > > > > Anet should give a roll for every class other then a sub version of the optimal roll. A lot of classes do the same thing as scourge but with less effects and less aoe and less spamabitly. In the old meta you only saw a few class but you could still have the odd ball classes have viability such as thf and its ability to counter mages but scourge is so overwhelming overpowers in wvw that a thf class cant get in and do enofe dmg to a scorge who is a mages class. > > > > > > In a lot of ways by playing scorge you become a worst player as gw2 and over all gaming due to just how overpower it effects are making it less of a mages class but more of a full tankly class that dose every thing a mages can do its realty just that bad and is a real danger to players. Who needs to dodge when you have max barrier all the time who needs to aim when you have 300 size aoe x 2. Its a complete brake down from gw2 combat. > > > > > > > @"ProtoGunner.4953" said: > > > > If people have problems with a - subjectively - OP class, just play this class. > > > > > > As i said you cant play it with out destroying your skill as a player in gw2. In effect if you play scorge you will only be able to play scorge in a group fight from there on out and if there is any real update to the class a lot of ppl are going to be out of luck because they lost there skill at playing gw2. Scorge is about as harmful to the game type as imaginable. > > > > Hyperbole does NOT help these discussions. > > > > It’s simply ridiculous if you think scourge is doing more burst than the buff to meteor and equally ridiculous to say playing a scourge ruins your ability to play the game. > > > > Tone down the radius, damage, condi stacks whatever, way too many of you essentially calling for the class to be gutted in all regards. > > > > I’m sure all us necro players are fotm scourge players but if you get paired up with Mag hit me up in game. Would be happy to show you what’s up on core necro, reaper or any number of other classes. :) > > The only thing hyperbole is to say there not a problem with the scorge class in wvw when most groups are nothing but scorges and the ground in most fights are strobe lights. > > Scourge is a very low skill cap class its easier to play then reaper and core necro. Its also boring if it was not as OP as it is now i think no one would play it for long just because of how boring it is. > > Btw mez should be all the boon strip any one needs for the high boon meta but such effect was taken away because mez is a high skill cap class and scourge is easy mood. > > > @"Snowjob.7245" said: > > Easy fix. Just do the same thing the did to rev. Make it so there is a small (or perhaps large) internal cd before another shade can damage you. Fixed. > > > > Its ok for scourge to be the go to damage dealer. Not ok if groups look like this > > > > > @"Awe.1096" said: > > >  > > > > > > > > > I think anet has sort of fallen into the trap of "but there's counter play cause its mostly condi damage" which doesnt really work out in practice, the end result is the same as multiple hammer revs smaking you at the same time. > > That the thing scorge is doing both condi dmg AND power dmg. For what ever reason anet felt that scorge a condi tankly support class should also do ok power dmg. So even if you counter there condi they are still doing enofe power dmg dps to down ppl. There is something very wrong here and this is all on the scorge dev team. I would love to see how they feel about effectively killing a game mood on there own. (Its about to become worst btw no down state is coming and scorge will be the only viable mages to play in that game type). I totally agree it is low skill and needs a nerf, the stuff you said in your previous post was still 100% ridiculous. 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X T D.6458 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > @"DragonSlayer.1087" said: > > > NERF THE SCOURGE. If you have Sand Shades, you don't get to pulse the effects on yourself. And decrease the Radius in WvW/PvP. It's out of control. > > > > The player counting as a shade is important for applying barriers. The radius of Manifest sand shade is 180, which is tiny. It has to be traited to be increased and this is necessary in wvw because of the size of groups and to actually hit moving targets. > > My problem with the Scourge is when they start stacking in groups, they just become a ball of death train. The synergy with Marks and the nature of their Point-Blank AOE mechanic is the problem. No other profession/spec can stack up like that and turn into a death ball. On top of that, they convert condi, apply barrier, CC, torments all in one F2-F5 piano swipe. So what if they stack? They are not unkillable, if people actually used proper comps and strategy and learned to properly counter them it wouldn't be an issue. And are you really complaining about a class that needs to use 4-5 skills to kill anything? Standing in those big red circles is bad! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxanne.6140 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 Delete-15 words Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonSlayer.1087 Posted May 24, 2018 Share Posted May 24, 2018 > @"Rezzet.3614" said: > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > @"X T D.6458" said: > > > > Scourge is a necessary evil in WvW because it serves a purpose, it counters the natural desire every group has to be carried by boons and try to one push everyone. > > > > > > Spellbreakers serve that purpose and in a way that is far more easily counterable than large groups composed of 70% scourges. > > > > > > > > > > Spellbreakers are part of it, but Warriors do not provide aoe or range damage. WoD can make or break a fight, but it is an elite skill. Nobody is going to stack their zerg with warriors because they dont provide support, ranged/aoe damage. Scourge is not just there for boon corruption, it is there to enforce area control and punish groups for making mistakes and using bad positioning. > > > > If its not Scourge, it will be something else. People will always use what is most effective and try to maximize its usefulness. Necro has always been part of the meta in WvW because of its burst damage ability. > > **you just unironically pointed out what is wrong with Scourge , they are doing Every Role At Once , Support,Offense,Anti Boon, Heal** if you trait for it and equip Blood well > yes if its not scourge it will be something else but at least it will be something counterable by something else other than stacking more scourges , **if we remove scourges people will most likely shift to whatever else has access to non projectile aoe so most likely firebrand,eles,revs all wich are perfectly counterable by other professions, heck even good ol regular necro or reaper would still be powerful but counterable ** > > does not help that scourge deals hybrid damage, I personally run Marauder's and land easy 8k+ damage on scourge 5,the elite and well of suffering all non projectile ranged aoe , then i negate healing via condi bomb and fear This. People makes it sound so easy to just say "oh, just stay out of the red circle." Yeah, good luck with Fear and Torment Spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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