Game balance as a whole is broken.

[Fargas.6251]

 

 

> @"Cynn.1659" said:

> > @"Hume.2876" said:

> > The only way to fully balance an MMO is to make every class/spec identical. I disagree with everyone in this thread - ANET does a fairly good job. Almost all the classes have a reason to be brought to a raid. And all of them are good in general PvE. Most have some utility in PvP - however again in top PvP some small difference will mean no one will pick that class...

> >

> > There is no way fix this without removing differences.

>

> I'm gonna borrow your logic for a sec.

>

> All content in the game is bad because it's not identical, the only way to balance the content is to make it all the same.Raids, dungeons, fractals, open world pve is not balanced fairly. Anet should balance all content around core game hero challenge difficulty.

>

> There is no way fix this without removing differences

>

>

 

No one is asking for everything to be completely equal. The majority would be satisfied with a 10% difference between the best meta build and the weakest but still well thought out build. Do any of you LIKE having a 40% difference between a meta build and a non meta build? I’m seeing so much defense for Anet here that I’m worried that people like that the majority of play styles and player creativity are useless. You guys realize that this could have been the WoW killer had the extreme lack of balance been dealt with right?

 

[Obtena.7952]

I don't think too many people care if GW2 is the WoW killer. Pretty sure that's not the point of the game existing in the first place.

 

The problem here is that what you are talking about is not objective measures; the meta changes and the 'weakest but still well thought out build' is highly debatable. No reasonable person could think that's a good way to try to determine how to balance the game because it's subjective and impractical. The fact is that as long as a person sits behind that keyboard, these 'performance-based' measures of builds are rather meaningless to determine balanced builds.

[ErgoProxy.9074]

Yea, wow everything is making perfect sense now. Anet, caters towards buffing and making classes better that they like playing. Lol thanks Optena.

[Obtena.7952]

> @"ErgoProxy.9074" said:

> Yea, wow everything is making perfect sense now. Anet, caters towards buffing and making classes better that they like playing. Lol thanks Optena.

 

If we knew they only played a select number of classes and those were the highly-performing ones, you might have a point. :confused:

[michelada.2947]

> @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said:

> > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world.

>

> I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith.

>

> As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions).

>

> Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits.

>

> That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits?

 

i don't want to feel special for playing a class , i want to have fun and holosmith is superfun and open a lot of builds for the specialization , just because you don't like it doesn't mean is bad.

[Hoodie.1045]

> @"michelada.2947" said:

> > @"Hoodie.1045" said:

> > > @"Undead Unicorn.1238" said:

> > > The bottom line? Don't ever let a game get to the point where it forgets what it is, chasing people that have as much loyalty to it as they have to any other game. Quit making things easy for the sake of catering to casuals; both the ones that don't spend any time playing a game, and the ones that truly believe the meta is a literal manifestation of their own abilities in a virtual world.

> >

> > I too want build variety. The problem is that ArenaNet has no idea how to balance elite specializations in order for them to be on par with the previous elite specialization or core specializations. If you want a good example of how ArenaNet caters to casuals, look no further than the Holosmith. I'm just going to say this, I hate the Holosmith.

> >

> > As someone who's been playing core power engineer since 2013, I've never been so disappointed in ArenaNet and how they managed to neuter the engineer. Core engineer whether it's power or condition is the most difficult adventurer profession, if not the most difficult profession in general. Way back in the day, before elite specializations, a core engineer was capable of dealing with almost every single profession in a 1v1 situation. A good engineer who knew how to use the kits effectively was guaranteed to be deadly. Core engineers were the Yasuo players from League of Legends at launch; difficult to play, but very deadly once you got the hang of it and learned how to use the kits (I don't play LoL, I just know some of the champions).

> >

> > Nowadays, we have this pathetic excuse for an "engineer" profession. One that caters to casuals that don't want to acknowledge the difficulty that comes with playing core engineer, that don't want to be bothered to learn how to play the profession. It's a glass cannon specialization that deals the most amount of damage, yet it has the ability to use healing and utility skills. In my opinion, the best way to make the Holosmith on par with core engineer and even Scrapper is to either nerf Photon Forge and make it like necromancers' Shroud form where you can't use healing and utility skills or buff core engineers' kits.

> >

> > That's the only way core engineer can be buffed in my opinion. Buffing traits is pointless because it would benefit the Scrapper and the Holosmith. We already had the Med Kit reworked, so why not rework/buff the other kits?

>

> i don't want to feel special for playing a class , i want to have fun and holosmith is superfun and open a lot of builds for the specialization , just because you don't like it doesn't mean is bad.

 

I never said that the Holosmith is a bad specialization. The Holosmith is easier to play than core engineer which is fine if you're a new player, but my problem is that it's a specialization that achieves more by doing less. It should be the other way around: Holosmith is easier to play, but won't reach the same results as core engineer which if played right can achieve the highest results.

[Lanhelin.3480]

I never play meta-builds, or if ever, then by accident. The bad thing isn't that meta-builds exist, the bad thing is, that often new players who lack knowledge and skill when they ask for a build they get adviced to play a meta, that actually is meant for a full group/squad of people playing their metas too.

I still main a Core Mesmer, also pre-phant-patch I played a core one. For me Chrono cuts off more than it returns and there's way more older content not designed for the Mirage-Dodge but the dodge-roll, so I stick with Core. Does it feel powerful? Yes, in certain situations more than others. Does it feel unique? Yes, pretty much, as it neither is a meta nor considered to be "good" in any aspect. I don't care about that. Fortunately GW2 offers the freedom of choice regarding personal playstyle, also I'd never demand other people playing a specific build.

[witcher.3197]

> @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> I really don't understand what their plan for this game is.

 

It's simple. They get casuals hooked with the viasuals and the music, then give them a solid combat system that's been dumbed down into oblivion. So they get a bunch of people who couldn't beat any semi-hard content ever, but here's the good part: you don't have to! Just get that credit card out and buy the rewards. Meanwhile you are getting validation in open world for being a god with your overtuned elite spec.

 

Anet has the best target audience ever. They don't need replayability, challenge, ingame rewards, or even balance. Just make things shiny.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > I really don't understand what their plan for this game is.

>

> It's simple. They get casuals hooked with the viasuals and the music, then give them a solid combat system that's been dumbed down into oblivion. So they get a bunch of people who couldn't beat any semi-hard content ever, but here's the good part: you don't have to! Just get that credit card out and buy the rewards. Meanwhile you are getting validation in open world for being a god with your overtuned elite spec.

>

> Anet has the best target audience ever. They don't need replayability, challenge, ingame rewards, or even balance. Just make things shiny.

 

O_o I ... I cannot imagine why you would still be here if you believe that. Like, what possible attraction could a game you describe is such terms have for you?

 

Anyway, aside from that genuine curiosity, I'm interested in what rewards you are thinking of that you can obtain with a credit card?

[witcher.3197]

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > I really don't understand what their plan for this game is.

> >

> > It's simple. They get casuals hooked with the viasuals and the music, then give them a solid combat system that's been dumbed down into oblivion. So they get a bunch of people who couldn't beat any semi-hard content ever, but here's the good part: you don't have to! Just get that credit card out and buy the rewards. Meanwhile you are getting validation in open world for being a god with your overtuned elite spec.

> >

> > Anet has the best target audience ever. They don't need replayability, challenge, ingame rewards, or even balance. Just make things shiny.

>

> O_o I ... I cannot imagine why you would still be here if you believe that. Like, what possible attraction could a game you describe is such terms have for you?

>

> Anyway, aside from that genuine curiosity, I'm interested in what rewards you are thinking of that you can obtain with a credit card?

 

Gemstore rewards? So like, 99% of all worthwhile things in the game.

 

And I uninstalled not long ago. I like the combat but balance got so bad I just can't stand it anymore. Still lurking in hopes of Anet turning things around but I'm not holding my breath. Living story isn't doing it for me either and everything else about this game is stagnant.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"witcher.3197" said:

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> > > @"witcher.3197" said:

> > > > @"Ephemiel.5694" said:

> > > > I really don't understand what their plan for this game is.

> > >

> > > It's simple. They get casuals hooked with the viasuals and the music, then give them a solid combat system that's been dumbed down into oblivion. So they get a bunch of people who couldn't beat any semi-hard content ever, but here's the good part: you don't have to! Just get that credit card out and buy the rewards. Meanwhile you are getting validation in open world for being a god with your overtuned elite spec.

> > >

> > > Anet has the best target audience ever. They don't need replayability, challenge, ingame rewards, or even balance. Just make things shiny.

> >

> > O_o I ... I cannot imagine why you would still be here if you believe that. Like, what possible attraction could a game you describe is such terms have for you?

> >

> > Anyway, aside from that genuine curiosity, I'm interested in what rewards you are thinking of that you can obtain with a credit card?

>

> Gemstore rewards? So like, 99% of all worthwhile things in the game.

> And I uninstalled not long ago. I like the combat but balance got so bad I just can't stand it anymore. Still lurking in hopes of Anet turning things around but I'm not holding my breath. Living story isn't doing it for me either and everything else about this game is stagnant.

 

Ah, OK. Thank you for explaining. Now I see what you were getting at. Thumbs up and all that. :)

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

 

> META stands for Most Effective Tactic Available. Everyone want to be as effective as possible, that's why META especially relevant in competitive environments .

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but no, it doesn't. That acronym is overly-simplistic and totally made up as far as game theory is concerned.

 

Meta is a prefix that is self-referential or recursive. "meta-physics," "meta-analysis," and so on.

 

A meta-game, where the term "meta" in games comes from, is the "game of the game" which involves a lot of things studying the context of a given game and its strategies. A game with a healthy "meta" is one which constantly changes, rather than it just being an optimization. A single and absolute most effective strategy is simply the result of a solvable game, which in terms of game theory, is not desirable. It's why chess and go are so significant in the worlds of game theory and AI; we've yet to solve them despite the games being so old.

 

A "meta" exists in rock paper scissors, based on psychology, cultural studies, character inspection, and so on to determine a prediction of what the opponent will play. These subjects have nothing to do with RPS and go way beyond the scope of the game, but that's ultimately what a metagame is; going beyond the game to inspect how to win the game.

 

[Eme.2018]

> @""DeceiverX.8361"

 

What you are saying is something different. We are not talking about meta-game, game theory. None of those has anything to do with the META in Gw2. The META in Gw2 is created through trial and error and not a specific line of though based on mathematical facts.

 

Just because it is called game theory and Gw2 is a game doesn't mean that has anything to do with it.

 

 

 

[Vayne.8563]

Guild Wars 1 had a meta too. Most games have metas. They come from people finding the most efficient way to do things. I can't tell you the number of times I tried to get into a group with a non-meta build in Guild Wars 1 for the Underworld or DOA and found no takers. This idea that the game isn't balanced because there's a meta is just wrong. People will always gravitate to the perceived most effective builds.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> > @""DeceiverX.8361"

> What you are saying is something different. We are not talking about meta-game, game theory. None of those has anything to do with the META in Gw2. The META in Gw2 is created through trial and error and not a specific line of though based on mathematical facts.

>

> Just because it is called game theory and Gw2 is a game doesn't mean that has anything to do with it.

 

@"DeceiverX.8361" is completely correct, and your "backronym" is just that: a made up set of words that happen to fit the term you assume is an abbreviation.

 

The term "meta" has been broadly used to refer to the same basic concept for a long time now. It was in broad use the day GW2 launched, in fact, and has continued to be used. You can find discussions about the "meta" for WoW, or EQ, or Runescape, or plenty of other games from the era.

 

You are also completely mistaken if you think that there is no mathematical basis behind the builds that end up in the GW2 meta. There is plenty of theory, as well as practical testing, used: synergies between traits, power coefficients, the balance of condition damage vs duration, and other aspects are both easy to "theorycraft", and effective in getting close to the best rotation.

 

As an older example,

discusses a spreadsheet designed to help with the math behind the optimal rotation: maximizing damage output per player action, given the various skills available in the game. That is exactly mathematics.

 

There is also real world testing because, as we all know, "in theory, theory and practice are the same. in practice...".

 

Also, your comments regarding "game theory" vs "gw2 is a game" are quite misguided: game theory is essentially "meta-thought about games", so it does apply to GW2, but not necessarily in the same direct way you seem to think it must. It provides tools to analyse GW2 at a, sorry, meta level: thinking about the structure of the game, rather than the content. Just like mathematics, this is a tool that can be used to understand or optimize the game ... or misused to obfuscate. Just like any tool.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

for some reason there was a consensus at anet to consciously make xpac specializations noticeably more op. probably to boost sales. they completely ditched their core game philosophy, which was team work to achieve certain effects or in absence of a healer. now there are classes that can do pretty much everything, as well as healers. there is much less emphasis on coordination and team play orientated builds.

 

its too late. the game will only get worse. imo they shouldve stuck to combo fields and built on that idea. they couldve worked in some traits that improved interaction with them, such as thief blasting smoke heals ppl and removes condis over time, or rangers blasting water grants team stability. things like that, not just boons and condis though.

[Eme.2018]

@"SlippyCheeze.5483"

 

Of course, mathematics can be used on just about anything. The thing is, sometimes they are not the optimal approach (generally, when things get too complicated such as in this case). And I am not talking about simple calculations (and neither did @"DeceiverX.8361" I think) I am talking about pure mathematical logic outside the game, helping you find and understand the most effective strategy in game.

 

Game theory helps very little (if not at all) in understanding those more complicated games that cannot be easily broken down into simpler math games.

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

>As an older example,

discusses a spreadsheet designed to help with the math behind the optimal rotation: maximizing damage output per player action, given the various skills available in the game. That is exactly mathematics.

 

Okey but, this isn't "above and beyond" the game. You are still within the game's rules, are you not? @"DeceiverX.8361" was talking about activities outside the rules of the game that help you advance in game; studying behaviors outside the game that eventually help you in game, if I understood him correctly.

But even if that is not the case ( :astonished: ), this is just one extreme example.

It is very rare to see this purely arithmetical approach applied and it is even rarer for it to actually be useful.

 

So, generally, it makes little to no sense to use the word meta, **in this game**, as "going above and beyond to find the best tactic available" because that generally does not happen. We stick to the "Most Effective Tactic Available" part because this is the part that most accurately describes what meta is about, in this game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

> @"Eme.2018" said:

> @"SlippyCheeze.5483"

>

> Of course, mathematics can be used on just about anything. The thing is, sometimes they are not the optimal approach (generally, when things get too complicated such as in this case). And I am not talking about simple calculations (and neither did @"DeceiverX.8361" I think) I am talking about pure mathematical logic outside the game, helping you find and understand the most effective strategy in game.

 

I'm quite unclear what you think meta-gaming is, but... it is always applied mathematics, not pure abstract math. This is necessarily true, because it is applied to a concrete situation, the game.

 

> Game theory helps very little (if not at all) in understanding those more complicated games that cannot be easily broken down into simpler math games.

 

That is true, but the "but" is necessarily that there are a bunch of things in GW2 that are easily modeled with game theory. The trading post, for example, is one. Regardless, it is not necessary to apply "game theory", or even rigorous mathematics, to have a "meta-game discussion".

 

> > @"SlippyCheeze.5483" said:

> >As an older example,

discusses a spreadsheet designed to help with the math behind the optimal rotation: maximizing damage output per player action, given the various skills available in the game. That is exactly mathematics.

>

> Okey but, this isn't "above and beyond" the game. You are still within the game's rules, are you not?

 

I see the line you are trying to draw, but it is completely and utterly unrelated to the common use of the term "meta" in any popular context, let alone in the context of MMO build theory and practice.

 

> So, generally, it makes little to no sense to use the word meta, **in this game**, as "going above and beyond to find the best tactic available" because that generally does not happen. We stick to the "Most Effective Tactic Available" part because this is the part that most accurately describes what meta is about, in this game.

 

This has to be the strangest "I refuse to be wrong" defense of an invented term I have read in a long, long time. Ultimately, though, I don't care. However you choose to define the term, it really doesn't much matter, so I'm just gonna let you to it. Enjoy.