Siege Revisions

[Caliburn.1845]

Siege revisions are not terribly important right now. Unless you significantly increase or decrease siege power it will have little to no meaningful impact on WvW.

[HazyDaisy.4107]

While youre at it, can we look at disablers having no CD or not using supply if they are blocked? It's fair if they are blocked by only seige bubbles, but they aren't, most times its player skill blocks and the CD and supply drain isn't fair to defenders.

[foxof.8752]

show a mini sieges icon on the corner (options placement) when you near a stacked of sieges, or tactivators, so you could click on the mini icon to choose which to handle/press F. If a sieges (e.g cata is manned, it should different color). Also different level color mini icon to show building completion, so players can "easily" choose which to finish building.

 

Allow to use supply to repair damaged tower/keep stationary sieges, like the repair hammer, some group can hit the sieges till 5% hp and leave it for next round attack...

 

not sieges related: move NPC away from supply hub, or prioritise supply hub for 1st target for pressing F. example the red keep one...

[ReaverKane.7598]

> @"Crazy.6029" said:

> > @"ReaverKane.7598" said:

> > > @"Crazy.6029" said:

> > > If you are going to make siege less effective you might as well remove it. 1 siege doesn't do much damage, its the quantity of the siege that makes it effective. Rather than reduce the siege cap, which would just be a way of reducing overall effectiveness of it, use a standard siege duration that way it increases the value of supply and it sources and promoting player combat at the sources of supply. 1.5 hour siege duration max, no more refreshing.

> >

> > Then might as well just add a hard-cap of siege at a location (like guild decorations), enforce that for both ends, and improve its effectiveness overall.

> > Because while 10 arrow carts might be a great deterrant (if you have them on the right spots, don't forget that a lot of keeps can be attacked from all sides), nothing prevents the attackers from doing the same, and - like all aoes - it's easier for attackers to aim and hit defenders than vice-versa.

>

> If you add a hard cap at locations then you make it easy to be trolled. Let's say the location has a hard cap of 10. Then it will end up being 10 flame rams inside the walls endlessly being refreshed. The only way I can see to end the huge amounts of endless siege without breaking the integrity of the sieges purpose is to make siege duration limited, it could vary from siege to siege but it shouldn't last longer than 1.5 hours max. This way if you want to have lots of siege you have to fight to keep it.

 

I meant each one has his own cap. Not that you have a shared cap for both. Also depending on the area that is capped, defender's cap might need to be higher. (So if the cap is fore the whole inner keep, defender should have 4/5 times higher cap than attacker, because it might need to spread it out, if the cap is per wall segment, then both should have the same).

Also this would be in addition to the limit, not an alternative.

[Dawdler.8521]

**Massively increase damage of trebuchets against T2 and T3 objectives or reduce their cost significantly**

 

The trebs never kept up with the defense boosts and cata changes. They are utter crap at the moment, prohibitivly expensive and doing crap damage with no advantage outside range - which is easily countered by defensive trebs or free mortars. At the same time, they are the most visually appealing siege lobbing groups of fireballs high toward enemy keeps (that we rarely see) and the only "true" long range siege that draws people out (that we dont use because its too expensive). It's really dissapointing. We need more balanced usage between trebs and catas, now its a 100:1 (or more) ratio. If we actually had a clear "anti-T3" siege that was *worth* the effort to build even for smaller groups... It would be amazing. We **need** more T3 flips to avoid stale maps where you cant really attack anything.

 

**Apply cata/mortar/treb mechanics to arrowcarts**

 

Slow to turn, charge to fire. Would allow us to outmanouver arrowcarts. I would even settle for actually *increasing* damage with this change as it would make them fire **alot** slower as result (since it take time to charge for longer distance firing). Making them actual projectiles that are blocked if you try to fire from behind walls would be great too.

 

**Replace the refresh mechanic entirely with a repair/upkeep mechanic**

 

Siege last X amount of time "for free", but after that they will continually drop in hp. You can repair them for supply. Basicly, a cost for having so much siege up constantly. For example, current siege has a decay of 60m that can be refreshed forever. Change that to 30m free (no option to refresh), after that it will drop by 10% hp every 15 minutes. Repairing 10% of a siege would cost... say 2 supplies. Introduce a new mastery with "Siege repair" with perks for repairing siege to use all those worthless mastery points we got. Repairing would not be possible while in combat. Some siege would be considered too "complicated" to fix for average bookahs, such as golems. Either they would cost alot more to maintain or they would simply be unrepairable under this system and eventually self-destruct.

 

**Fix the goddamn siege disablers going through doors**

 

Seriously its stupid.

[Optimator.3589]

Reduce AC damage to players by 25%, increase damage of flame rams and catapults against T2/T3 defenses by 10%.

 

Either that, or buff Siege Bunker and Siege Might accordingly.

[hunkamania.7561]

AC's are stupid OP right now and have needed to be nerfed for quite some time. It's also way too hard to get into T3 structures without a damn blob.

 

If you need to see how bad siege is just try taking a T3 SMC during primetime hours..... That's all the examples you'll need.

 

[DanAlcedo.3281]

As long as Arrowcarts gets a dmg nerf im happy.

[Swagger.1459]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> Hey everyone!

>

> We're currently looking to make some siege revisions. We'd like your feedback! I know several posts have been made in the past, but we'd like to get the feedback in one thread for review.

> One note on our part: Siege should continue to be an important part of World vs. World. We don't want to make a change that would make siege useless.

>

> So let us know your thoughts on the current state of siege and what you'd like to see differently!

 

Overall I think seige works just fine.

 

If you are looking to add anything, then an underwater ram would be cool. There are a couple of spots where they could be used currently. And maybe someday they would come in really useful if new maps were made with more underwater areas, underwater objectives, and underwater passages into land objectives...

[Forged.6158]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

 

> Trebs - I don't see much a problem with them or how they function.

>

Get rid of the 3rd floor SMC trebs that are not able to be countered.

 

Also, add a tactivator that does a 1 minute reveal.

 

[fewfield.7802]

I have no problem with offensive sieges such as ram and cata but i have some trouble with the situation that you have to flip t3 keep of PPT server which is with 10millions ACs inside. The point is fighting with sieges is not fun even you have full squad and the only way to take it is attacking it on late night. What a good solution.

 

And one more thing, Most of new people those who dont have enough fighting experience prefer sitting with ACs/Mortars/Canons instead of regrouping with a commander and learn to fight properly. Btw I think the fun part of WvW is Zerg vs Zerg , Blob vs Blob , Guild vs Guild or even Roamer with Roamer not Players vs Sieges

[szshou.2193]

Structural siege weapons such as cannons and mortars should be **unusable** when the objective is **uncontested** (no white swords). People abuse them to interrupt open field fights (one of the only things keeping the health of WvW as a game mode above water) rather than using them as intended, to defend the objective from siege and groups actively trying to take the objective.

[ChaoticOdyssey.1957]

Given the semi-recent nerfs to Firebrand healing, AC damage needs to be decreased. Under only one or two AC's, a full-minstrel Firebrand should at least be able to keep their party healthy.

[XenesisII.1540]

To me there's really two pieces of siege that needs to be looked at, arrow carts and shield generators.

Alright let's get down to business and have a good discussion.

 

**First some stats so people have a better idea of what we're discussing.**

 

**ARROW CART** - Used for denial of area on players, counter siege.

 

* 2,500 range, aoe cap of 50, 360 radius of shots.

* 40 Supply cost.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 10 more supply.

* Power, Condition Damage and Condition Duration affect the damage and conditions from the arrow cart's skills.

* Mastery increases range by 300, damage by 25%, increase radius by 180.

 

**FLAME RAM** - Used to destroy gates, crowd control fear on Lords to take down their break bar.

 

* 360 range, aoe cap of 50.

* 40 Supply cost.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 10 more supply.

* Mastery reduce skill recharge by 33%, some additional skills to help survive on the ram.

 

**CATAPULT** - Used to destroy primarily walls from a distance, can damage gates but takes much longer, counter siege.

 

* 4,000 range, aoe cap of 50, 360 radius of shots.

* 40 Supply cost.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 10 more supply.

* Mastery increases damage to walls by 20%, radius of shots by 20%, damage by 25%, has it's own siege bubble for protection.

 

**TREBUCHET** - Used to destroy walls, counter siege.

 

* 10,000 range, aoe cap of 50, 360 radius of shots.

* 100 Supply cost.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 20 more supply.

* Mastery increases damage by 20%, radius of shots by 60 units for shots and 90 units for cow, other skills like water and supply drain are pretty worthless.

 

**BALISTA** - Used in small scale warfare to deal with players and siege.

 

* 3,000 range, single shots, 240 radius for shattering bolt.

* 30 Supply cost.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 10 more supply.

* Mastery increases damage by 25%, faster bolts, increases range by 500, increases shattering bolt radius by 60.

 

**Shield Generator** - Used for area control and protection from projectiles.

 

* 2,200 range, aoe cap of 50, force ball knock back 240 radius, force wall 720 width, force dome 450 radius.

* 40 Supply cost.

* Superior version has 50% more range(3,300) for only 10 more supply, guild version has 3,750 range.

* Mastery grants various boons, increases the radius of Force Ball by 60, of Force Wall by 180 and of Force Dome by 150, increases the duration of Force Wall from 5 to 7 and of Force Dome from 9 to 12, prevents damage from arrow cart fire to allies inside the Force Dome bubble.

 

**SIEGE GOLEM** - Used to fight godzilla and kaijus, on the off days used for sneak rushes on structures.

 

* Melee range for alpha, 1,200 range for omega, aoe cap of 10.

* 100 Supply cost alpha, 150 supply cost omega, 50 supply cost guild.

* Superior version does 50% more damage for only 10 more supply.

* Mastery increases stats, speed boost on wall or gate destruction, shield, and 007 car ejection seat.

 

 

**Second lets talk about roles here, and the counter play.**

We have number of offensive siege to use, rams on gates, catapults 4,000 range on walls, trebuchets 10,000 range on walls.

Counter siege has a few options, cannons and mortars do significant damage to siege but are mostly easy to kill without siege, trebuchets is a long range option with balistas being a short straight range option, and arrow carts are used to deny areas from players. Almost every piece of siege placed in the game can be counter sieged in some way, using well placed trebuchets gives you a lot of options to do so, with it's shots requiring some skill to determine range, power, and proper positioning to do so.

 

As we are all well aware of with the release of heart of thorns, shield generators were introduced which killed a lot of counter sieging, it denies projectiles and can deny arrow cart fire with mastery. There is very little to counter this piece of siege without having to directly go to it to destroy it, or you manage to sneak in some lucky long range shots from a trebuchet.

 

**TLDR - So finally let's talk about same changes.**

Personally I feel that counter sieging needs to have a bigger place in the game again. I don't like what shield generators have brought to the game but I don't exactly want them to remove it as it can be useful on defense of a structure, my problem is when it's used on offensive. Arrow carts I agree should be used to deny areas of players, but it should be just around structures to get them off nearby siege such as rams or catapults near walls, longer range should rely on balistas, trebuchets, cannons, or mortars.

 

**Arrow carts -** Reduce range from 2,500 to around 1,500(the range of a long bow ranger), it should be used to cover areas along a wall, but not way beyond them. Not sure I agree with player stats improving damage, I think having fixed stats such as the golems have would be better.

 

**Balistas -** Not really useful except for quick kills of siege nearby, this should be one of the best counter siege in the game. Make it's shots with a slightly higher arc. Allow Reinforced short(mastery) to pierce through shields so there's a ranged hard counter option to Shield Generators.

 

**Shield Generators -** Increase their supply cost, they should cost at least as much as trebuchets or golems. Reduce the duration(perhaps 5-7s) of the force dome, increase it's cooldown(perhaps30-35s), reduce it's base radius to 360 like every other aoe skill on siege, in other words try and make that skill less spamable. No point touching the range as these are usually built next to the siege it's protecting. If my suggestion above to have piercing shots from the balista, then none of the these changes may be needed other than increased supply cost. Overall that may lead to players using more catapults for their shields again, but shield generators can still block out arrow cart fire too so it's still useful for rams.

 

**Cannons, Mortars, Burning oil -** Most times these will get easily killed by a zerg, unless you're sitting on them before a fight there's no point to them. I'm thinking maybe giving Cannons and Mortars a shield much like Burning oil would be useful (not that it helps on oils much with 40s cooldown, should also be considered for lowering), short duration and short cooldowns, although ground target aoes can get through them anyways. Perhaps Ironhide skill like rams could also be given to them.

 

P.S I like the idea of making structure siege(cannons, mortar, burning oil) destroyed/repairable like gates and walls, instead of having to wait for it to respawn and again rebuild. Yes I know, repairs hammers, but I think repairs on those three are fine, just not player built siege because you have the option to build those anywhere.

 

 

**Edit: Adding ideas that popped up later on in thread.**

 

Add an aura to siege that reduces power of siege within that aura area, 250-400 range. A flat 50% reduction, or if stackable then 10% per siege placed in the aura area, up to 50% max.

 

Instead of the aura reducing power, have it reduce range instead to a minimum max range amount of maybe 1500, with every piece of siege in the aura reducing range by 250-500. Arrow carts can get up to 2800 range with mastery, so three in a very close area would get all their range reduced to 1500. Rams should be excluded from this.

[Shadowcat.2680]

> @"szshou.2193" said:

> Structural siege weapons such as cannons and mortars should be **unusable** when the objective is **uncontested** (no white swords). People abuse them to interrupt open field fights (one of the only things keeping the health of WvW as a game mode above water) rather than using them as intended, to defend the objective from siege and groups actively trying to take the objective.

 

The cannons absolutely should be usable regardless of whether or not the keep is contested. Defenders shouldn't have to wait until the keep contests to start firing on that incoming golem rush.

 

If cannon-fire affecting player vs player combat is something Anet wants to address, then it seems like lowering the damage done to players while keeping the damage done to siege would be the better route.

[Krystal.5429]

1 of the most boring parts of WvW is the time it takes to desiege an objective just to have the enemy replace it in seconds. When players build siege they are not just going to build 1 AC, all this combine siege is a crazy amount of damage. I think there should be a limit to siege built in a structure. Stop siege from being build on 3rd floor of SMC.

It should take a while to build a piece of siege not just seconds. Siege is so cheap right now that people don't care how many they toss around.

Siege just makes players weak, we should have to fight each other not deal with a skilless players on an AC.

In a perfect WvW the only siege available would be rams and cata. :)

 

[wanya.1697]

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Fire_Gravel is pretty weak maybe add daze to it

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Siege_Decay_Timer could need a rework, the 1 hour timer really needs a visual effekt like maybe https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bomb_Timer above the siege without it being target when siege is 5 to 10 minutes away from despawning

maybe even with ping on minimap https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ping (sorry found no gw2 wiki entry for this) so you don´t need to be in same room as siege

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Dawdler.8521" said:

> **Apply cata/mortar/treb mechanics to arrowcarts**

>

> Slow to turn, charge to fire. Would allow us to outmanouver arrowcarts. I would even settle for actually *increasing* damage with this change as it would make them fire **alot** slower as result (since it take time to charge for longer distance firing). Making them actual projectiles that are blocked if you try to fire from behind walls would be great too.

>

 

OH GODS YES PLEASE. With all this hate towards shield gens, I can't understand why there isn't an equal amount towards arrow carts. They are far worse for the health of the game mode and nerfing shield gens without doing the same to ACs will make the mode a whole lot worse.

 

[Recursivision.2367]

Nerf arrow cart damage and / or just replace mortars with AC's as fixed installations and remove the dropped siege. AC's are not fun, and bring little of substance to the game mode.

 

Tune siege so that players themselves are more effective at destroying it, so that a small group can coordinate to destroy the siege. And reduce effectiveness of siege against players across the board.

 

Make trebs do more damage to structures, and reduce effectiveness of stacking shield gens. Goal being a means to force players out of structures to defend. Defending trebs open field is much more engaging for both sides than 5 AC's firing down on cata's stacked against a wall.

 

Give catas their own niche -- no idea what.

[Shadowcat.2680]

It'd also be nice if siege disablers worked on shield gens when thrown from inside the shield gen's bubble. The bubble blocking a disabler thrown from outside its radius is all well and good but currently the bubble will deny all disablers, even if one's thrown by a defender that managed to get inside the bubble's radius.

[Darlgon.9273]

Weird suggestion. How about requiring a level of participation to use tactivators to prevent trolling?

 

Tower/Keep siege on some walls is totally useless, as the walls are too low and cant be used due to every class and their brother being able to cover the entire top of the wall with AoE condis. (Looks at the east wall of Bay and the upper walls on Alpine Garris.

 

Oil pots? Is anyone EVER able to use them, or are they just free points for the attackers?

 

Would it be possible for the trebbers / catapulters who took down the walls of a tower PLEASE get credit for the tower/keep take that they enabled the 30 allies to go into the Lords room, but cant get into it themselves before the ring fills?

 

Why do ballistas feel pretty much useless, as most players have seige damage reduction, while shooters are fully into them, so they hit for like 10 percent of health?

 

BTW, like the idea of seige auto repair, but.. frankly, I would rather when attackers destroy them, they dont disappear, but they can be rebuilt. They are supposed to be how you defend the tower/keep, right?

[Vladimort.9178]

Dear Anet Santa:

 

Introduce a 4th Borderland. Establish one or more of the following on said map:

 

1. Disable siege placement

2. Purge all gates from every structure

3. Remove the ability to gain PPT

4. Make it so every keep npc is neutral and attacks everyone, then buff them.

5. Cannons and mortars control could work as mini point captures like pvp

 

Bonus

6. Keep trebs and Introduce asura as ammunition

[Raiden.1375]

Here are a few suggestions that should help make some of the less useful siege more useful, and also allow for more counterplay to some of the more formidable sieging tactics currently:

 

---

 

**Burning Oils:**

- Change Oil Mastery III: Increased armor so that it reduces incoming damage as well as condition damage by 50%.

- Change Burning Shell to grant protection and resistance for 5 seconds in addition to its current effects. Reduce the cooldown from 40 to 20 seconds.

- Change Pour Tar so that it immobilizes instead of cripples. Reduce the cooldown from 20 to 15 seconds.

- Add a Defiance Bar (Perhaps locked behind masteries) to the player operating it.

 

**Reasoning:**

 

Burning Oils are increadibly easily AOEd down at the moment (the user of them even more so). These changes should help make them more reliable instead of just dying within a few seconds after getting a skill or two off before even the oil is destroyed. The addition of a Defiance Bar for the operator will help prevent immediately being CCed or feared off (and then most likely dying near instantly from the AOEs since you no longer have the damage reduction mastery). The change to Pour Tar should help as well given how weak it is at the moment, and should combo nicely with its main Pour Oil skill.

 

---

 

**Cannons:**

- Combine the current # 3 Mastery into the # 5 Mastery effect. Make the new # 3 Mastery effect similar to the Burning Oil's Oil Mastery III: Increased armor, so that it reduces incoming damage as well as condition damage by 50% to the operator.

- Add a Defiance Bar (Perhaps locked behind masteries) to the player operating it.

 

**Reasoning:**

 

Cannons are AOEd down even more easily than Burning Oils, and are mostly over shadowed by Arrow Carts which can be placed in much more useful locations to help avoid being destroyed as quickly. The added Defiance Bar to the operator and increased armor mastery effect should help alleviate that a bit.

 

---

 

**Arrow Carts:**

- Reduce the range of the skills a fair amount so they can't fire too much further from walls that they are usually placed on. This will keep their strong area of denial usage, without making them quite as formidable in large quantities. If they are placed closer together to protect key points still, they will also be more susceptible to being AOEd down by enemies.

 

---

 

**Ballistae:**

- Make the projectiles arc slightly higher so they don't get caught on the edges of walls etc so easily. This will be particularly welcomed after the above listed nerf to Arrow Cart ranges, to help defend against enemy siege that's out of the now more limited Arrow Cart's range.

- Make Reinforced Shot pierce through siege bubbles to help counterplay shield generators. The already long cooldown should keep the skill balanced, but perhaps increase it from 40 to 45 seconds or so if needed.

 

---

 

**Shield Generators:**

- Increase the minimum distance from itself that it's allowed to create a Force Dome bubble at, so that it can no longer bubble around itself.

- Prevent the # 5 Mastery effect from being applied to Shield Generators so that there is still some counterplay to multiple Shield Generators bubbling over each other.

- Allow for unblockable player skill projectiles to penetrate through Force Dome bubbles, similar to how skills like Meteor Shower already can from a range, so that a few more classes have tools to help deal with them. (Still blocks Basilisk Venomed Siege Disablers. Basilisk Venom should still allow the projectile to penetrate player projectile destroying skills, however.)

 

**Reasoning:**

 

Shield generators are very powerful when combined with ramming gates in particular, seeing as it's easy enough to bubble around all of the rams and the shield generators theirselves, preventing any siege damage to the attacking siege and group (in contrast when combined with Catapults or Trebuchets, defenders can at least counter Shield Gen to help balance it out). In addition, no player projectiles or disablers can penetrate the bubbles either (not even unblockable skills currently). This setup typically guarantees any formidable group of attackers to break inside objectives quite easily, mostly nullifying any defensive siege that's already set up inside the structure.

 

With these changes, the shield generators theirselves can more reliably be attacked and disabled, potentially allowing for some openings for defenders to disable or attack the catapults/rams and attacking group. These bits of counter play should help balance out the currently very powerful combination of shield generators and gate ramming, without destroying the tactic altogether.

 

---

 

**Catapults, Mortars, Trebuchets:**

- Make their main attacking projectiles display a type of red circle to enemies in the location it will hit at.

 

**Reasoning:**

 

It can be pretty easy to have your attention focused on a zerg fight and not to the skies looking for these projectiles incoming. Also, the projectiles often get culled anyway, and then all of a sudden you take 10k damage from a catapult boulder and get knocked back, not even knowing what hit you without checking the combat log. This would be a nice QoL update to help out with that.

 

[Warlord Lu Bu.7905]

Siege should have ammo, and you refill that ammo with supply. Makes siege far more strategic and less spammable. Makes supply camps far more valuable. Forces better decision making when attacking, forces tower huggers to stretch their legs, and prevents afk seige spammers.

 

Tactivators should only be usable by members of the guild who've claimed the objective, prevents trolls from being happy. Also again makes WvW a little more strategic.

 

Remove Shield Generators.... almost as bad as an underwater WvW map, no.

[Drinks.2361]

You should be looking at siege together with structures that are protecting it. The changes that came with HoT increased the effectiveness of walls with very little to counter it offensively which has moved the fights that we used to have inside a tower to one group standing on a wall with more than half the players involved more or less doing nothing while they wait for the breach. The overall goal for structures should be to slow down an attacking force down long enough for a group to respond & defend using player skills rather than arrow carts.

 

Flame Rams

- should be immune to arrow cart damage, because attackers carry less supply then there is in a depot they can chain build ACs until attackers have exhausted their supply

 

Shield Generators

- increase the effective hp of a wall when used defensively, we've already got structures that upgrade & tactics that do the same

- very difficult to counter when built inside a structure, not bad when open field

- maybe only allow shield gens to be used in enemy controlled territory, if you can glide you can't use shield gens

 

Arrow Carts

- way too easy to build defensively, too easy to use, range is too long

- Ballista is rarely used because ACs are more effective

 

Supply

- defenders just need to go to a depot inside a structure which is mostly full with no effort or risk

- pre-HoT structure supply was used to upgrade, players had to make a choice how they wanted to use the supply upgrading a bad time could leave you at a disadvantage

- not enough reason to get supply at camps vs an upgraded structure, camps are flipped & left idle not an attraction for fights

 

Trebs, Catas, & Ballista aren't really in a terrible place, I'd like to see them used more often defensively but that is more of an issue arrow carts being too strong.

 

 

Ideally I'd like to see more of the old ktrains brought back into WvW, it was always a good place for new players to start out & let them meet others on their server. Those ktrains would in turn motivate groups to become more organized to fight them or other similar groups, but those ktrains where like the plankton in the ocean sustaining the activity in WvW. Right now it's very difficult for a new player to survive an attack on a defended T3 structure & even if they do with how long it takes to breach they might not want to commit the amount of time it takes to breach.