Dawdler.8521 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > @"Dawdler.8521" said: > > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > > > > > @"morrolan.9608" said: > > > > > > > > My reaction is please finish alliances as a priority before making other changes. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Having said that in answer to the query, nerf ACs. Siege should primarily be about be obtaining access to objectives not killing other players. Someone else has suggested restricting the number of players an AC hits like most aoes in the game this is a good suggestion.. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Nope, siege is also there for defence and slowing the blob a bit for reinforcements to arrive. If they are not strong enough you can literally take any keep on the map without problems if your blob is big enough. I assume that this is the case on your server. > > > > > > > > > > > > Siege should be there for defence in terms of countering other siege not in terms of making it easy to kill players. > > > > > > > > > > Hmm I think siege was designed for a small group to hold of a larger group. You know it should be way easier to defend than to attack, just like in real castle warfare. > > > > > > > > Or you could surround them and watch them starve to death. Thats pretty easy. > > > > > > > > Either way, walls and gates *are* easier to "defend" than no walls and gates. And even if you take out all siege from the equation, a T3 last longer than T0, doesnt it? That is the point of the gates and walls. To delay, not defend or offer a position to effectivly attack the enemy from. > > > > > > > > You want realism? Alright fine. But then I want to see everyone jumping off the side of a wall to attack a siegeing force break their legs. > > > > > > I have a glider.. So ok. > > > > Contrary to belief, gliders shaped like golems, bubbles or blocky clouds doesnt fly well, neither does chickens tied to a string. > > :) good point. I think catapults placed right next to a wall would also have some devastating effects on the 50 people behind it btw ;) Considering catapults stopped being effective against walls and just plonked the stone (there is a reason trebs and cannons where needed), those 50 people behind it would hardly be phased. There's just gonna be a rock falling straight down by the wall. It's not an RPG with a backblast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. this not to mention because of things like snap cast LOS can be ignored to some extent and some profession can easily dump aoe over walls anyway , also the current imbalance because of scourge meta allows for scourge group to create anti player engagement zones wich also prevent harm from siege because of barrier spam, a single non healing power scourge can dump 9-11k barrier every 20s to 10 targets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diku.2546 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Trajan.4953" said: > So Siege Humpers want better Siege, and Fighters want better fights. What was the point of this thread? ANet please make a note that it's critical that you evaluate what you do to siege in a context where Population Stacking WILL impact game play. Make decisions that are based on doing the right thing for all players & not just based on majority opinion. **Tinkering with Siege is an alternative way to try and balance battles.** These kinds of changes are like "fine tuning" the balance. If the balance is too far out of wack...attempts to "fine tune" become in-effective. ANet you still need to re-design WvW to channel the impact of Population Stacking in a positive flow that naturally replenishes the game mode in the Long Term. --- > @"Gendo.2370" said: > please make siege blueprints take up less inventory slots! **Store Blueprints in Wallet. Icon to right of Wallet Blueprints lets you email other players or sell siege to trading post (Caution - Abuse by gold farming bots).** Wallet Example - See Gems & Gem Store / Coins & Currency Exchange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. LOL. It is not, but ok. You started out talking about the skill of the zerg. Let's talk reality where a zerg doesn't get the tower not because they cannot get the tower but because people don't want to play that game. Is that healthy, getting a "win" because people don't want to play? And then you keep insisting that pointing out how defense has been buffed over offense is just some sort of hidden agenda of wanting to ktrain. Do you not understand why players are not ktraining in EOTM? For the same exact reason they are not spending time getting that tower. People want fights. You don't get fights from ktraining in EOTM. A zerg of 25 is not getting a fight from 5 defenders in a tower. They're trying to attract a fight to that tower. The problem with a buffed defense is that the defender's larger force doesn't have to respond as much anymore, meaning less fights. Again, I will not ignore the fact that the defensive playstyle has become the more efficient method of winning a match-up, which is why we see more people/guilds/servers doing it and less and less of the old time three way big fights over/around objectives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunkamania.7561 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkyShroud.2865 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > LOL. It is not, but ok. > > You started out talking about the skill of the zerg. Let's talk reality where a zerg doesn't get the tower not because they cannot get the tower but because people don't want to play that game. Is that healthy, getting a "win" because people don't want to play? > > And then you keep insisting that pointing out how defense has been buffed over offense is just some sort of hidden agenda of wanting to ktrain. Do you not understand why players are not ktraining in EOTM? For the same exact reason they are not spending time getting that tower. People want fights. You don't get fights from ktraining in EOTM. A zerg of 25 is not getting a fight from 5 defenders in a tower. They're trying to attract a fight to that tower. The problem with a buffed defense is that the defender's larger force doesn't have to respond as much anymore, meaning less fights. > > Again, I will not ignore the fact that the defensive playstyle has become the more efficient method of winning a match-up, which is why we see more people/guilds/servers doing it and less and less of the old time three way big fights over/around objectives. Your logic is getting mixed up but if I interpret correctly then...no. If people want fights, by sieging the objective, they already get the attentions they wanted. It is simple as that. What you are arguing is you want to cap the tower before people can respond, please read back your own post. Also, as for fights getting lesser, are you sure you it is the siege issue? Personally, I always think it is the imbalance issue that always cause the fights to dwindle. Both class and population imbalance. What I think is some people here are trying to force a "solution" to their personal fights problem while ignoring that every server and timezone are different. What I think is that guilds that want to fight should stop stacking onto same servers and spread out and fight each other. I still strongly believe fight issues are fundamentally caused by stacking, naturally, guilds and people aliked that stacked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XenesisII.1540 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > a minimum distance for catapults would help you more, for example the boulder has to fly at least 80% of the distance when you just tap the skill 2 on even terrain, hitting a wall before that will result in 0 dmg. then you have to build the catapults on a distance. with catapults on a distance. you are still not safe from their range spiking you on the wall then. but if they do that, they are not at their catapult wich can be taken out by someone else in that time. through gates you can already hit with AoE from range while LoS is blocked so you are pretty safe doing it and dont need to get on top of the gate. > > How do you envision sieging this western inner breakable wall with a minimum distance catapult? Or perhaps you know of a trebuchet placement that can reach it? Maybe a small havoc team can sneak some omega golems back there? >  > Bam problem solved!  Joking aside, don't know how much of a minimum distance are asking for, but there are a lot of places where walls don't have a lot of space next to it and would require you to bring the catas out from there which exposes them more to siege fire, like the north outer wall in hills too. I understand why people are asking for the minimum distance, just not sure I agree with it much as I think there should be a close siege option for walls like rams for gates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 Siege cant be rebalanced until main combat is revised first, right now defenders cant defend because attackers can drop aoe over walls, fix LOS so that aoe skills like scourge's cant be cast over walls ,my guess is that snap cast to target is bypassing the regular LOS and simply puts the aoe ontop of targets, saw a golem rush today and defenders couldnt do anything because of aoe spam destroying all siege on walls even tho the siege was on the back of the walls some even was behind stairs combine that with shield gens and golem aoe knockdown spam and it was basically an untouchable blob from any range and type of combat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > LOL. It is not, but ok. > > > > You started out talking about the skill of the zerg. Let's talk reality where a zerg doesn't get the tower not because they cannot get the tower but because people don't want to play that game. Is that healthy, getting a "win" because people don't want to play? > > > > And then you keep insisting that pointing out how defense has been buffed over offense is just some sort of hidden agenda of wanting to ktrain. Do you not understand why players are not ktraining in EOTM? For the same exact reason they are not spending time getting that tower. People want fights. You don't get fights from ktraining in EOTM. A zerg of 25 is not getting a fight from 5 defenders in a tower. They're trying to attract a fight to that tower. The problem with a buffed defense is that the defender's larger force doesn't have to respond as much anymore, meaning less fights. > > > > Again, I will not ignore the fact that the defensive playstyle has become the more efficient method of winning a match-up, which is why we see more people/guilds/servers doing it and less and less of the old time three way big fights over/around objectives. > > Your logic is getting mixed up but if I interpret correctly then...no. If people want fights, by sieging the objective, they already get the attentions they wanted. It is simple as that. What you are arguing is you want to cap the tower before people can respond, please read back your own post. Looks like you aren't interpreting correctly. I know the intent and content of my own posts. They're about offense/defense balance. I'm sorry you are unable to discuss that subject objectively without conspiracy theories about hidden agendas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LINKAZZATORE.8135 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. If you think blobbing is about pressing 111 only, then i can see why this is the result https://imgur.com/hz3ZrUd 2 servers that think acs > own build and skills and that blobbing is just about 1111 there is a reason why all fighting commanders quit those 2 servers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"XenesisII.1540" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > > a minimum distance for catapults would help you more, for example the boulder has to fly at least 80% of the distance when you just tap the skill 2 on even terrain, hitting a wall before that will result in 0 dmg. then you have to build the catapults on a distance. with catapults on a distance. you are still not safe from their range spiking you on the wall then. but if they do that, they are not at their catapult wich can be taken out by someone else in that time. through gates you can already hit with AoE from range while LoS is blocked so you are pretty safe doing it and dont need to get on top of the gate. > > > > How do you envision sieging this western inner breakable wall with a minimum distance catapult? Or perhaps you know of a trebuchet placement that can reach it? Maybe a small havoc team can sneak some omega golems back there? > >  > > > > Bam problem solved! > >  > > Joking aside, don't know how much of a minimum distance are asking for, but there are a lot of places where walls don't have a lot of space next to it and would require you to bring the catas out from there which exposes them more to siege fire, like the north outer wall in hills too. I understand why people are asking for the minimum distance, just not sure I agree with it much as I think there should be a close siege option for walls like rams for gates. > Agreed. I think people aren't thinking the minimum distance thing through thoroughly. One suggestion was 600 range, another 800, which would push the catas back to where you drew them. In that bay keep location, that is a far more risky/exposed position for those catas than under AC fire against the wall. Supply would then be better invested in rams and shield gens at the gate. It does two things: completely removes any utility from having that wall breakable and two, that wall is a common "hidden" location used by havoc teams to try to breach inner while a larger force is distracting defenders. Removing it as an option removes a kind of strategy from the siege game. Edit: And I ain't even gotten to talking about Desert borderland where walls are the preferred locations to attack because the defensive structure of gates was buffed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"LINKAZZATORE.8135" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. > > If you think blobbing is about pressing 111 only, then i can see why this is the result https://imgur.com/hz3ZrUd > > 2 servers that think acs > own build and skills and that blobbing is just about 1111 > > there is a reason why all fighting commanders quit those 2 servers. Vabbi is one big blob, what are you talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Don't you press 1 to spam AC fire? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunkamania.7561 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. What are you talking about? I have no clue at all. How can you take a keep with 5 guys vs a defending force? It's not possible at all. Only way you can do that if there's no1 playing. You need a large force to take any of these T3 keeps and towers. plz stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. > > What are you talking about? I have no clue at all. How can you take a keep with 5 guys vs a defending force? It's not possible at all. Only way you can do that if there's no1 playing. You need a large force to take any of these T3 keeps and towers. plz stop. And it should take a large force to take a T3 keep, you want to take it with 5 guys? Of course it is not possible to get that, and it should not be possible ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. > > Don't you press 1 to spam AC fire? I am not on an outnumbered server normally, but yes today AC fire saves our keep and some T3 towers from a way larger blob pressing 1. So how would no siege have helped us today?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hunkamania.7561 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > > > > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. > > > > What are you talking about? I have no clue at all. How can you take a keep with 5 guys vs a defending force? It's not possible at all. Only way you can do that if there's no1 playing. You need a large force to take any of these T3 keeps and towers. plz stop. > > And it should take a large force to take a T3 keep, you want to take it with 5 guys? Of course it is not possible to get that, and it should not be possible ever. But it's not even possible with 20-30 unless there's no1 in there. You literally need a blob to take it unless the defenders are all bad at pressing 1 on a AC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rezzet.3614 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > > @"hunkamania.7561" said: > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > @"Ansau.7326" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"Israel.7056" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @"SkyShroud.2865" said: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > What mentioned as children are non-stacked servers where filled with many fresh players since those servers are normally open for freshies to join unlike stacked servers that historically stacked upon over and over again while closed from time to time due to overpopulation. This is not comparison to your group of people who just want to siege since you particularly mentioned T1. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your issue is with the first fraction that do whatever it takes to win, that is your source of problem since you mentioned there is certain T1 server. I am sure they fight better than fresh blood. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You entire basis is base on some bad sheeps and a revision that will condemn all other servers that can be outpopulated from time to time. Pretty much the same mentality why people kept on opposing blowing up servers since years ago. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My primary contention is that the tools the "children" use to "prevent being overwhelmed" are the same tools that "fraction A" uses to win by "any means necessary." If it can be used by 5 to defend against 25, which is the usual canard, then it can also be used by 50 to defend against another 50. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My secondary contention is that the tools that the "children" use to "prevent from being overwhelmed" also prevents them from developing any real skill at the game which further exacerbates the "skill gap." It keeps them "children" because it's a safety net that catches them when they fall. As the "skill gap" widens it becomes harder and harder for the "children" to ever feel like they can catch up so it creates a feedback loop whereby the bad players get worse and the good players get better. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 can't really stop 25, is just a deterrence. Also, you assume that the children will grow up to have same mentality as the adults that just use only siege. As for developing skills, I think those that overwhelm others would be less likely to further their skills than those that got overwhelmed. With those said, your issue is still with fraction A. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't know which WvW are you playing, but 5 can perfectly stop a group of 25 sieging a tower or keep. All you need is 2 arrowcarts and someone to drop a disabling siege trap in stealth. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hate to say this but that would means the 25 zerg is really lowly skilled and they deserve to be stopped by only 5. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I disagree because the defense/offense balance favors the defenders often. Has nothing to do with skill (we really talking about skill when discussing siege?) and everything to do with tactivators and plenty of supply. Even better for the defenders when they have a map queue available to zone in with an emergency waypoint after delaying the 25 for a long time. Remember, arrow carts' AoE target cap is 50, larger than the 25. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are assuming that people are stupid enough to sit in ac long enough for ac to kill them. And your example is not stopping a 25 zerg, your given example is delaying a 25 zerg, that is vast different. 5 person can never stop a 25 zerg. The technical usage of words need to be concise and correct, otherwise, the arguments will be just moot. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > A lot of people reasonings of nerfing ac is because they hate a blob hugging towers or keep with sieges. Of course, there also other people with hidden agenda of nerfing ac because they want a easy ktrain like eotm. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Don't pretend there is a vast difference with word usage. There is no difference between a zerg being delayed long enough until they quit from some constraint (i.e. map queue, time, supply, boredom) and a zerg being "stopped". The end result is the same. There is no skill involved in that, only "how much supply we got?". > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It isn't a hidden agenda to point out an imbalance between offense/defense. Tactivators and things like fortified gates buffed defense but what did offense get? Charr car? So I don't blame people when they request nerfing AC damage or increasing the damage on walls from trebuchets. I won't ignore either how the defensive playstyle has become one of the more efficient ways to win a match. > > > > > > > > > > > > There is a difference but for you is not. It is pretty much the argument of whether some cash shop item is p2w or not p2w. But, the fundamentally philosophy doesn't change. Just because a zerg do not want to spend time to get the tower doesn't mean the zerg cannot get the tower. If people want to ktrain, they should go to eotm. > > > > > > > > > > > > Deterrence is not same as impenetrable. > > > > > > > > > > Taking time to take an objective? I've seen a solid commander take 3 hours to take a fully blobbed out and sieged up keep. Do you think anyone wants to get showered with AC's for 3 hours to get a champ bag at the end and some PPT that doesn't mean anything? Come on dude. Defensive gameplay is ruining the game and everyone knows it except siege humpers and DEVS! > > > > > > > > Stop blobbing and no siege is needed. But nooo the zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. Well you have to deal with siege then. > > > > > > What are you talking about? I have no clue at all. How can you take a keep with 5 guys vs a defending force? It's not possible at all. Only way you can do that if there's no1 playing. You need a large force to take any of these T3 keeps and towers. plz stop. > > > > And it should take a large force to take a T3 keep, you want to take it with 5 guys? Of course it is not possible to get that, and it should not be possible ever. > > But it's not even possible with 20-30 unless there's no1 in there. You literally need a blob to take it unless the defenders are all bad at pressing 1 on a AC Try catapults then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaba.5410 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. > > > > Don't you press 1 to spam AC fire? > > I am not on an outnumbered server normally, but yes today AC fire saves our keep and some T3 towers from a way larger blob pressing 1. So how would no siege have helped us today?... There's no point to answering your question since I was responding to your comment about zerglings pressing 1, not whether one has siege or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aspirine.6852 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > @"Chaba.5410" said: > > > > @"aspirine.6852" said: > > > > zerglings want to be in that precious group pressing skill 1. > > > > > > Don't you press 1 to spam AC fire? > > > > I am not on an outnumbered server normally, but yes today AC fire saves our keep and some T3 towers from a way larger blob pressing 1. So how would no siege have helped us today?... > > There's no point to answering your question since I was responding to your comment about zerglings pressing 1, not whether one has siege or not. It takes more skill to kill someone in a blob with AC fire than the other way around. When was the last time someone out of 50 died with all the heal spam going on? It's delay only not kills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MuscleBobBuffPants.1406 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 I would be interested in more defensive siege. Maybe like a Trojan horse that only fits a certain amount of people inside but it can tank AC carts etc while smashing in doors. Bigger and more elaborate siege, maybe like people can combine 15 golems into a super mecha golem. That would be cool to break up stalemates and create more chaos and fun, some maps seem to be too static at times. Reduced siege cost, siege buffs etc. for servers that are outmanned and/or have no territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper Cutter.9376 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 You should be invulnerable while using siege (except golems), until it gets destroyed. That way, the built-in siege on structures wouldn't be suicidal to try and use in the face of AOE and such. (this also applies to environmental siege used in multiple places in PVE, which also has this problem). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kovu.7560 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 > @"Hyper Cutter.9376" said: > invulnerable while using siege ... might be a bit extreme. Pulsing stability on cannons and oil is about as far as I'd go. (And only because those are on the edge of the wall by design.) ~ Kovu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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