Siege Revisions

[X T D.6458]

What bothers me about siege is how easy it is to get around the siege cap. The siege cap needs to have its radius increased by at least 500 units, maybe more. You can simply put down 5 catas next to each other, walk 1000 units which is not far and throw down 5 more catas and melt a t3 wall. This also allows people to stack keeps and towers with arrow carts seemingly ever 5 feet, this is just so annoying and frustrating to have to deal with.

 

Also, damage against siege should be buffed a little. After the change that doubled the hp on siege, it takes longer to take down enemy siege. Lower arrow cart damage against players by 10%, and increase damage against siege by 10%.

 

Add a percentage icon when charging catapult, trebuchet, and mortar shots to make it easier to ensure accurate shots.

 

Add to burning oil mastery- Reduce damage by 50%, and pulsing stability.

 

 

[Dark.1605]

AC is being deadly like 5 acs can wipe 50man , thats sick , i wish they do damage reduction for players more effective as siege bunker gives more damage reduction , siege damage against siege is fine , also for SMC which is the highest ppt structure i think Anet should do work on it , i cant land a single piece of siege without being countered smc should be controlled by server activity and fight not siege so as for other keeps

[tridanite.7641]

Add more types of siege.

 

Add siege skins to wvw reward track

 

Move canons and burning oil to a location that is less accessible to enemy invaders. Canon and burning oil are pretty useless imo.

 

Improve the use via damage of char car when sieging - its pretty terrible right now

 

Add a buff to players under siege by arrow carts while under a bubble for reduced damage.

 

Add a debuff to bubbles under siege from arrow carts with new arrow cart ability that weakens shield bubbles.

 

Change the aiming of catapult and trebuchet to mouse aoe target. This can be used on mini map for larger distance shots. Power can be determined via another input method or by holding the shot key i.e mouse button.

 

Just off the top of my head

 

[Celsith.2753]

A few quick things that come to mind:-

 

Shield generators should not be able to bubble so close to themselves that they cover themself and their user.

Damage caused to shield generators has never been added to the combat log, making it very hard to know if you are hitting one with a treb, for example. They need to be added to the log.

 

When siege hp was doubled to account for it now taking condition damage, no change was made to the damage caused to siege by other siege. This really makes ballistas underpowered as anti siege. Ballista damage to siege needs to be doubled.

 

Siege in general, in my opinion, does far too much damage to players and far too little to other siege. The current damage values effectively stifle players interacting with each other and instead place the focus of wvw around player v siege. It's not unusual to have a scenario where you spend hours and hours trying to get close enough to something to desiege it or fight over it, only for the actual fight when you get in there to last a couple of minutes at best - and that's assuming the defenders, even if a blob, don't simply port out when the wall/gate goes down.

 

Siege v siege needs to be strong enough for a smaller defending group to use strategy, supply denial and defensive siege to kill siege or delay long enough for help to arrive. Siege v player should NOT be so strong you can simply sit on it and never actually fight.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Celsith.2753" said:

> Shield generators should not be able to bubble so close to themselves that they cover themself and their user.

 

Zerg would drop 4 gens to solve this issue. 2 to bubble the rams/catas and 2 near the rams/catas to bubble the other gens.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Cannons and Balistas faster projectile. Mortars, catas, and trebs turn faster. As far as what someone else said change gravel shot it's horrible and only people that don't know what cata does use it.

[Nigel.2745]

Seige placement have a Specific distance away from gates and walls

soom places i have seen seige placed should never be able to take down a gate or wall

placing catas inside walls or cliffs and hitting the rock face under the wall impossible to defend against where acs carnt touch them

 

[Notjes.7182]

> @"Vladimort.9178" said:

> Dear Anet Santa:

>

> Introduce a 4th Borderland. Establish one or more of the following on said map:

>

> 1. Disable siege placement

> 2. Purge all gates from every structure

 

Just do this on EB for 1 week. Lets see how it goes!

[Blackarps.1974]

Remove superior arrow carts, half their damage to players, or cap the number allowed in one structure (easy to troll though). Literally nothing wrong with any of the other siege. Catas range doesn't matter cause you can build trebs so that's null. Any siege not doing enough damage doesn't make sense, just build more. Trebs might need looking into because of people using macros or placing things on their keyboards to hold buttons down to AFK farm pips. Everything is really fine though, just the amount of arrow carts people build to make up for their lack of skill. Now I'm not totally against finding ways to make towers, keeps or SMC easier to defend against blobs when you have say 5 people, but when a blob is inside with 5+ arrow carts waiting for the enemies outside to push in and die on inc, its just not fun. My guild will just leave. Dying instantly while people auto-cast from the top of stairs isn't fun.

 

Don't buff any siege or add anymore that aids siege in anyway. Nerfs only please or we might as well just siege everything up and wave to each other from towers. The ONLY way I see a buff to siege working is if you went and took out half the towers, keeps and camps. That way taking something meant a lot more. That would be boring though because people already AFK enough in keeps as it is.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Lahmia.2193" said:

> > @"Celsith.2753" said:

> > Shield generators should not be able to bubble so close to themselves that they cover themself and their user.

>

> Zerg would drop 4 gens to solve this issue. 2 to bubble the rams/catas and 2 near the rams/catas to bubble the other gens.

 

You're quite right. It does add another layer to the organisation needed, but probably a longer cd on bubble's or other solution is required.

[Celsith.2753]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> As far as what someone else said change gravel shot it's horrible and only people that don't know what cata does use it.

 

Gravel shot has been bugged since the start of the game and you can misuse it to one shot people. This should be fixed.

 

[Zephyra.4709]

My 2 cents:

 

# SIEGE:

 

* **ARROW CART:** Nerf damage slightly. Increase damage taken by ballistae

* **BALLISTAE:** Increase arc so that the bolt can reach over the lip of walls. Increase damage done to arrow carts. Make _Fire Reinforced Shot_ pierce through shield generator dome/bubbles

* **CATAPULT:** Change _Fire Gravel_ to apply _Structural Vulnerability_ unique to walls only (literally never seen anyone use _Fire Gravel_ unless it was accidentally switched over to). Remove ability to place catapults directly next to/on base of walls.

* **TREBUCHET:** Massively increase the effects of _Healing Oasis_, additionally, make this skill pulse an immunity to the effects of _Fire Bloated Putrid Cow_ while clearing 1 condition every pulse or every second for the duration of the skill

* **SHIELD GENERATOR:** Increase minimum range required to place _Force Dome_

 

# STRUCTURE SIEGE:

 

* **BURNING OIL:** Add 10 seconds of _Iron Hide_ while initially interacting with the siege (ICD: 40 seconds). The burning application of _Pour Oil_ now spreads to enemy players near it. Improve the effects of _Burning Shell_ to apply pulsing resistance & stability to the user for 10 seconds (ICD: 30 seconds). Change the cripple from _Pour Tar_ to immobilize

* **CANNON:** Remove 'point and click' functionality. It now requires charging the skill to fire akin to catapults, trebuchets, mortars (range depends on how long the skill is charged for, and also on the cannon's elevation)

* **MASTER CANNON:** _Relocate_ all Master Cannon build sites to better compliment the cannon's introduction as defensive siege weapons. As it currently stands the location of these build sites server zero purpose but should be able to reach areas where enemies are likely to build siege assaulting nearby objectives. All skills require charging to fire akin to catapults, trebuchets, mortars (range depends on how long the skill is charged for, and also on the cannon's elevation). Northern master cannons should be able to reach Garrison's southern gates or stairwells leading up. SE & SW master cannons should be located closer to each tower, preferably guarding a section of wall (NW wall for NW tower and NW wall for SE tower). Southern master cannon may be better suited to being place closer to SW tower so it may reach the outskirts of the eastern wall and any area before it

* **MORTAR:** No changes needed but we should be able to load Asuras into it and shoot them over walls

[Rampage.7145]

None of this people know what is going on tbh, u should just play WvW and see what the problems with the mode are go fucking incognito join discords with guilds/players, do your own research and according to what u learn do changes u think will make the game fun. Do not ask any of this siege humping losers how to fix siege because truth is all they do is sitting on a wall all day waiting for enemy to go close enough so they can use mortars ACs trebs cannons etc on them, if that is the game u want to promote well go ahead and ask them, if you actually want people to fight each other and have fun doing actual combat join commanders guilds or whatever during their raids listen and learn so you can pinpoint how to actually fix the game.

I can tell you right out that the problem with the game is that it isn't fun, nobody wants to attack structures cuz it sucks there is not rewards involved and ofc takes forever to get inside any structure, if you think the game is just fine turtling objectives all day long well that is your vision or idea of fun then the game is doing what is supposed to do, if you actually want people to have fights and fun do actual PvP well remove all stupid turtling obejective tools like T3 walls/gates, defensive tactics that completely suck like invul fortifications hardened gates and make player build siege such as ACs or catas less effective against players to disencourage people from using those and actually fight instead

[Karnasis.6892]

My honest opinion is that Siege is relatively fine as is (with some needed updates in certain aspects). Leave the damage values as is, or the mechanics of them.

 

I think the best thing you could do is give us more places to place the siege, both offensively and defensively though you have to be careful here as there would be more places you can't counter siege if done improperly.

 

Also, siege placement for towers/keeps. Fire keep cannons for example, are so bad, and basically useless because not only are you not even "safe" in your keep, but some of them are behind pillars.... that blocks your shots and view of the outside of the keep.... sometimes exactly where people put catapults. However keep in mind if you change siege drastically you'll either make it super useless or even more op.... which is why I like the state of siege as is.

[hunkamania.7561]

> @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> My honest opinion is that Siege is relatively fine as is (with some needed updates in certain aspects). Leave the damage values as is, or the mechanics of them.

>

> I think the best thing you could do is give us more places to place the siege, both offensively and defensively though you have to be careful here as there would be more places you can't counter siege if done improperly.

>

> Also, siege placement for towers/keeps. Fire keep cannons for example, are so bad, and basically useless because not only are you not even "safe" in your keep, but some of them are behind pillars.... that blocks your shots and view of the outside of the keep.... sometimes exactly where people put catapults. However keep in mind if you change siege drastically you'll either make it super useless or even more op.... which is why I like the state of siege as is.

 

This is the exact reason you shouldn't listen to these guys. "siege is fine" lol

[Swagger.1459]

> @"hunkamania.7561" said:

> > @"Karnasis.6892" said:

> > My honest opinion is that Siege is relatively fine as is (with some needed updates in certain aspects). Leave the damage values as is, or the mechanics of them.

> >

> > I think the best thing you could do is give us more places to place the siege, both offensively and defensively though you have to be careful here as there would be more places you can't counter siege if done improperly.

> >

> > Also, siege placement for towers/keeps. Fire keep cannons for example, are so bad, and basically useless because not only are you not even "safe" in your keep, but some of them are behind pillars.... that blocks your shots and view of the outside of the keep.... sometimes exactly where people put catapults. However keep in mind if you change siege drastically you'll either make it super useless or even more op.... which is why I like the state of siege as is.

>

> This is the exact reason you shouldn't listen to these guys. "siege is fine" lol

 

Seige is fine. They add another tactical layer to wvw gameplay.

 

Players need to improve their “game”, and realize there is more to wvw than blobbing up and spamming skills without thinking.

[Rezzet.3614]

i disagree with most players here, everyone asking for nerfs on siege to focus on PvP , on paper is a good idea but real combats usually have one side greatly outnumbered making siege so weak that players can camp them harder than scourge blobs already do would cause more harm than good

 

Trebuchet needs the cata treatment they are underwhelming against higher tier structures as it is

 

Oil needs a serious upgrade

[Dominura.3657]

-Being able to move siege (with mastery), at half walking speed.

-siege that could be upgrade-able with more supplies with each tier having extra abilities (ie slightly more range, aoe). and health (or slow regen ). Since siege is cheap and disposable it makes it more valuable with supply and time

 

 

 

[AmphibianX.7042]

Skills like Guardian shield skill #5, Sanctuary, Feedback, Engi shield skills, Cata bubble, shield generators, etc. should give a buff that reduces siege damage.

Don't just magically reduce siege damage by flipping a switch, I think thats what siege is suppose to do, high damage. instead give players the ability to defend against it.

 

**Buff Name**: reduces siege damage by 10/15%

Cata bubble and Shield Generator shield do not give any kind of protection against arrow cart.

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Siege is largely fine imo. If anything some quality of life updates to them would be nice. As some other posters have said, it adds more layers to WvW gameplay and is iconic for the game mode. Things like arrow carts should be impactful and useful. I don't think they need a nerf at the moment.

 

As for any reworks to siege as a whole, I'd rather as much work as possible be put into the Alliance update so that you guys can roll that out ASAP. After that is done hopefully focus on new things to bring more variety to the game mode *like the much needed 3rd Borderland.* WvW hasn't really changed too much since launch and that's not necessarily great

[CrimsonNeonite.1048]

Offensive Siege doesn't need more upgrades really, they're already quite strong, especially with masteries. The only problem I sort of have, is with offensive shields at times, if done correctly, they can overpower defensive siege and even block siege disablers.

[Drinks.2361]

> @"CrimsonNeonite.1048" said:

> Offensive Siege doesn't need more upgrades really, they're already quite strong, especially with masteries. The only problem I sort of have, is with offensive shields at times, if done correctly, they can overpower defensive siege and even block siege disablers.

 

It's not a good sign that keeps rarely flip during the most active play times once they hit T3. Reset is fun & has a pile of players because nobody can turtle in a keep.

[This isn't fun for anyone](https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/QuickBackBellfrog "https://gfycat.com/gifs/detail/QuickBackBellfrog")

[Coldtart.4785]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> We don't want to make a change that would make siege useless.

 

I have never once seen a situation that was made more fun by the presence of siege. Without some incredible overhauls I don't think it's likely that you will both improve the game and accomplish this objective. That said, the overhaul I have in mind would be to add more kinds of mobile artillery siege. In an RTS, if your opponent is turtling with base defences you don't send your workers up to their base to build turrets to fight their turrets; that would never work yet in WvW it's our only option. If defensive siege is placed where player skills can't hit it you have to build some kind of siege in a position that can be targeted by the defensive siege that's already built. In an RTS the solution to this would be to use artillery units that can strike from outside the range of static defences and move to confound return fire.

 

Mobile weapons can of course give a huge advantage to a high population server because they can be stockpiled in safe areas then sent out to rush bases, so to limit this I'd consider the following: use mount physics to apply inertia and limited rates of turn to mobile siege, disallow mobile siege from using waypoints and apply ammo limits to their weapons that can only be reloaded by returning to an ally controlled structure (or possibly by using supply to reload them in some way). It might also be reasonable to add a kind of mobile siege that's good at destroying artillery but weak against players to add more counterplay options.

 

Another thing I thought could be interesting would be siege aircraft. They would use similar physics to the griffon but with no height loss over time and infinite ability to climb. To prevent mesmers from simply flying one into an enemy structure and portalling a zerg in you would make it so that touching the ground is considered crashing, instantly killing the player unless they do it in a designated landing area such as an allied structure. Also, you could have AA siege weapons to make it difficult for aircraft to stay in an area and stricter ammo limits than ground siege.

[GDchiaScrub.3241]

> @"GDchiaScrub.3241" said:

> Prolly would help to start with a goal in mind then. Example: "We want to increase player engagement. After noticing 50% of the players don't get to interact while sieging/being under siege. This is our priority."

 

Since no clarification of goals were given I am going to operate under the above assumption for hypothetical changes. Lead by example, right? Regardless if I believe in this goal or not, let's call this hypothetical dev, Dave. He is going to make changes that lend themselves to this goal. For now, let's "borrow" ANET's balance format for a moment too. Dave will speak in quotes. Oh how I love to RP (I do. Look it up when you're on Mag or AG).

 

# 13/13/1313 - Moremtober 13 Release Notes

## **Nonexistentday**

 

"Hello, this is Dev Dave, and I am here to present the latest Siege Revision update. For this update, we're looking to increase player participation when in comes to siege in WuvWuv. In addition to specific siege equipment, we've evaluated acquisition, progression with respect to WvW Masteries, and objectives themselves that come into play.

 

**General**

 

Siege Masteries: We will be enabling all siege abilities by default. This should allow new players to participate on even footing without being shunned off of siege (or worse...kicked off!) all due to lacking the appropriate mastery.

 

Siege Tiers: While in the past we had hoped to add a sense of progression from Normal siege into Superior, we noticed that the usage of so called "paper" siege has led to further negative reactions. This led to only Alpha Golems to be used more often than other Normal siege. In order to simplify this most important game play, we will only have 1 type of siege that will use the Normal siege supply amounts. The Guild Siege will be using our upcoming Guild Customization so Guilds can brand their identity on the battlefield (more on that _soon_). All of which will be purchasable from the usual vendors, and drop from the same boxes.

 

Siege Times: In the past, a player would be able to reset the time by simply interacting with siege. We are no longer allowing that, and will set siege to the average play time of 2 hours. The previous method benefited servers with more coverage. While this won't solve coverage (that we will look into later) it will give more value to supply, and its strategical usage with the moment to moment game play. Incidentally, this allows those "builders" out there to participate more often!

 

Siege Traps and Tricks: After going over the effects, we feel most of these are in the right place right now, especially for out manned situations. We are adding however the "Marked" de-buff on the "Stealth Disruptor Trap" in order to test, and increase its usage on the battle field. We hope that this means scouts will have further tools to aid them. We believe it will also allow further venturing outside of objectives with peace of mind given by this trap.

 

Siege turning: We will be increasing all turn speeds in order to help increase the pacing of this style of game play. This should also help in more reactive moments of play.

 

Objectives: We have noticed that Tier 3 objectives can often go ignored for longer durations even during prime time. This is not intentional. We want players to try, and so we will be reducing the health of Tier 3 gates and walls. Conversely, we have seen Tier 1 objectives targeted more often due to their ease. So we will be raising the health of Tier 1 gates and walls. Given this, we hope participation in harder targets ensues.

 

Tactivators: We will be seriously looking into these in future updates, as some go against the goals presented above. This conflicts because a singe player interaction greatly impacts the experience of many players at once.

 

**Siege Equipment**

 

* Shield Gen: We have discussed internally if the skills on this piece of siege should be split among other siege in order to expand strategy. Such as, Force Dome would be given to Golems or Catapults, and maybe Ballistae could halt a push with a Force Wall. Perhaps on a separate day we would test those changes. Unfortunately its current form goes against our goals, since it nullifies opponent interactions too much. We will be reworking its abilities to only block specific number of attacks. In this case X siege projectiles, before dissipating. This also means we will be lowering its cooldown to compensate, and giving a beneficial ending effect.

* Force Dome: In additon to its current effects this grants Protection, Stability, and Resistance on expiration. This effect ends after blocking X siege projectiles.

* Force Wall: In addition to its current effects this grants Protection, Stability, and Resistance on expiration. This effect ends after blocking X projectiles.

* Arrow Cart: The goal behind this equipment is anti-personnel, which it does effectively, however we no longer intend for it to be effective against siege equipment. Instead of constant damage we will be switching its attacks into more burst to allow the opponents opportunity to engage. We hope that the increased burst damage, and utility can be coordinated to still give invaders pause. By adding more utility attacks we're allowing more player interactions (on both sides) than in the previous Arrow Cart. The cooldowns are tentative as we will be watching them to reduce ground aoe clutter.

* Brutal Volley: Two pulses of X damage inflicting Vulnerability. Damage is double for stationary targets. No damage to siege. Cooldown 20s

* Punishing Volley: Two pulses of X damage removing Resistance, and applying Cripple. No damage to siege. Cooldown 20s

* Broadhead Volley: Two pulses of X damage removing Stability, and applying Daze. No damage to siege. Cooldown 20s

* Toxic Unveiling Volley: Two pulses of X damage applying Reveal, and Poison. No damage to siege. Cooldown 20s

* Barbed Volley: Two pulses of X damage applying Bleeding. No damage to siege. Cooldown 20s

* Catapult: Despite players still using them in close proximity to walls we feel this piece of equipment does what it sets out to do: siege walls. Where it falls short is Gravel Shot. We will be removing this temporarily. Their shield is short enough in duration it will go unchanged. In an effort of experimentation, we will be adding a new shot in hopes of players using it at range in conjunction with newer builds involving fall damage reduction. Yes, we are serious. Just don't be blocked by a shield gen! Disastrous. That or you can ignore Dev Dave on this one.

* Fire Personnel: Climb aboard, and launch yourself a distance depending on strength. Fall damage inflicted upon impact equal to the percentage of the shot's power.

* Trebuchet: This equipment is in a bad spot. We have spotted it primarily functioning as a defensive measure than our intended usage as offensive siege. First it was being used behind gates. The second to fix is the cow ability stalling combat too effectively, and also in a defensive manner with little counter. We are going to focus this siege on offense. This also means removing the Healing Oasis ability in the process.

* Primary Fire: Should now deal increased damage to objectives. It will no longer drain supply from enemy depots. (Will not damage behind gates, like catapults)

* Rotting Cow: Will no longer drain supply from enemies, but will drain supply from enemy depots at similar rate.

* Removing Healing Oasis to Razed Field: Creates a fire field that burns enemies.

* Ballista: We have seen this used in both offence and defense. At the moment we feel this is in a relatively good spot. It is siege effective at destroying stationary targets. We will increase its siege damage across the board, in order to compensate for the increase in siege health points in a previous update. Where it falls outside this intent is with Antiair Bolt, but its usage has been niche and only seen in a few objectives.

* Golems: Given the mobility of Golems, we feel both versions have their uses for sieging objectives. However, we have been noticing them being used as sponges for contesting objectives. This isn't a use case we wish to see.The Golems will no longer contest circles. We won't be changing their shields in this update.

* Canon: The consensus we have reached is players are unable to stay on them when under pressure. We will be applying a defiance bar to help give defenders a chance of using this (in addition to the now default mastery buffs).

* Oil: Like the canons we will be giving a temporary defiance bar to players in addition to previous buffs.

* Mortar: Currently this operates as long range defensive siege, and mostly excels at this. Especially in keeps. No changes seem necessary at the present.

 

## Improvements

* Plugged the holes in meshes for staircases, and battlements for Tier 1, Tier 2, and Tier 3, objective fort pieces.

* P.S. Rams are gucci. Word Limits. Keke.

 

 

[Soggy Biscuit.9372]

Shield gens are absolute AIDS for all the reasons people have already mentioned, and they should not be able to block disablers; seriously, why should they?

 

On the other hand, there's little incentive for using them defensively due to no participation/XP rewards, which is extra sucky considering we have to man them at the very likely risk of getting mes pulled off the wall into eleventy million AoEs and scourge shades.