Requesting advice on how to handle Thief and Mesmer

[Rysdude.3824]

Good day!

 

IRT WvW roaming, I find my hardest opponents are Thief and Mesmer (Mirage).

 

For Thief, specifically the build wherein they shadow step in, condi and imob me then shadow step back out and rinse and repeat.

 

For Mirage, im just asking for advice in general. Its the rare day where I win a Mirage encounter.

 

I roam on Spellbreaker but can’t ever win the encounters I posted above. I know its a L2P issue, so Im here asking from those way more knowledgeable than me. How do you do it?

[ProverbsofHell.2307]

What weapons and skills are you using?

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

The perma stealth classes that can reset themselves while leaving you in combat I haven't really found a way. I usually end up just going the opposite direction. It's funny I've got a mesmer friend that says spellbreakers are too unkillable, but me I run into the same issues you do I very much struggle with stealth classes.

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Rysdude.3824" said:

> Good day!

>

> IRT WvW roaming, I find my hardest opponents are Thief and Mesmer (Mirage).

>

> For Thief, specifically the build wherein they shadow step in, condi and imob me then shadow step back out and rinse and repeat.

>

> For Mirage, im just asking for advice in general. Its the rare day where I win a Mirage encounter.

>

> I roam on Spellbreaker but can’t ever win the encounters I posted above. I know its a L2P issue, so Im here asking from those way more knowledgeable than me. How do you do it?

 

in my opinion a thief that knows what he is doing will never die to a warrior, just hope te makes mistakes and eats your burst and be as unpredictable as possible

playing axe helps...oneshotting thiefs with an unexpected evis feels sooo satisfying

 

same goes for mesmet btw, good ones i find are impossible to kill, against mesmer atleast you can stack adrenal health tho...kinda wasting your stuff against illusion and not on him but you get your regen going, against thief...well hf hitting 3 burstskills as spellbreaker lol

[Rysdude.3824]

> @"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:

> What weapons and skills are you using?

 

Currently running GS with D/Shield, Defense, Discipline and Spellbreaker with Dura runes

 

Edit: Skills normally on my bar are Healong Signet, Beserkers Stance, Endure Pain, Featherfoot Grace and the elite signet.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

Sounds like a pretty standard setup. Like RedShark said thieves and mesmers pretty much get to decide if you are allowed to hit them. Especially ones that know what they're doing.

[Rysdude.3824]

Oh..well, I don’t feel so bad now. Thanks for the input!

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> The perma stealth classes that can reset themselves while leaving you in combat I haven't really found a way. I usually end up just going the opposite direction. It's funny I've got a mesmer friend that says spellbreakers are too unkillable, but me I run into the same issues you do I very much struggle with stealth classes.

 

It comes down to builds in most cases.

Axe is generally just the better weapon. D/S works in sPvP but isn't recommended for open-field or WvW where burst matters so much more. Throw Axe's range is also something which can seriously punish thieves and mesmers trying to reset.

Full zerk won't get you far into these matchups because your sustain becomes rather meaningless. Knights/Cavaliers mix is optimal for most roaming and provides enough toughness to negate virtually all burst attempts.

 

If the thief or mes plays off-meta they pretty much auto-lose.

 

D/D thief for example should never beat a warrior in any circumstance... ever. It literally mathematically cannot win a fight unless the spellbreaker MASSIVELY misplays as I learned in my attempts to try and win with my dueling request thread.

 

If D/P overstays its welcome it should be killable in one or two hits.

 

If S/D succeeds in comboing repeatedly you're pretty much doing something wrong by not just melting it by preparing Fc during its evade animation and waiting to use it for the LS.

 

One of the top 5 players/top thieves in the game came out with a video tutorial breaking down the spellbreaker matchup pretty much stating that if you make a single mistake you automatically die,so if you do or are caught without cooldowns, there's nothing you can do to win as the thief so to not feel bad about losses because it literally becomes a battle of builds/ganks half the time. In a few of his wins, he even claimed it was because of RNG on the rolls for Improv resetting utilities letting him get extra dodges.

 

SB should just play hyper-aggressive and extend invulns as long as possible.

 

As for mirage, it's entirely skill-dependent on the mirage; if they're good, nothing counters it which is why there's a massive complaint thread about the class being overpowered, because at the top end, it is.

[Arioch.4810]

> Currently running GS with D/Shield, Defense, Discipline and Spellbreaker with Dura runes

> Edit: Skills normally on my bar are Healong Signet, Beserkers Stance, Endure Pain, Featherfoot Grace and the elite signet.

 

What about food and enhancement? Also, how far in are you in WvW - did you started on your ascended trinkets/armor with WvW infusions?

 

I play a lot of Spellbreaker in WvW, DecieverX pretty much covered all in his post. Axe is better because bust matters, but I use dagger atm - i"m more comfortable with that setup. If you time you rotations well enough, thief/mesmer can't burst you down in one go - takes at least one reset for him - so you have 2 "windows" to catch him on full counter.

Thanks to full +power infusions and food/util, I expect to down every thief that goes for 1v1 - his healthpool is too small to endure f2/CC/f1 burst. Key is to chain f2+CC, hell try to disengage 100% after eating full counter.

Against Mirages i tend to go on defense and go about my way - IF he overcommits ill try to catch him on FC, but it's a fool's errand - if mesmer is playing about your level mechanically, he has the tools to survive. (Much bigger healthpool compared to thief). It requires him making the all-in move - burning shadowstep to maintain pressure when you attempt disengage with GS - if he goes for that, it's time for some cleave action :) Good Mirage would probably just switch to staff and keep up with #2.

 

 

[whoknocks.4935]

A good core sword/dagger thief will never lose against a warrior or spellbreaker, it counters the class pretty hard, you can kill him if he makes few mistakes and you land your cc and burst skills on the perfect moment.

 

About mesmer, especially mirage, you have to keep the pressure on him constant, find the enemy always targeted between the 20 clones he spawns, proccing full counter wont be that hard against a mirage because of clones, dagger is good too to cc him once he used already his evades and invuln.

 

Proccing full counter against that kind of thief is way hard, and if he is good enough he will immediately evade of procced full counter by mistakes.

 

As spellbreaker you have a chance to win against every single profession, but against some you have to play perfectly and land all the ccs or you wont make it through.

[Red Haired Savage.5430]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

 

> D/D thief for example should never beat a warrior in any circumstance... ever. It literally mathematically cannot win a fight unless the spellbreaker MASSIVELY misplays as I learned in my attempts to try and win with my dueling request thread.

 

I find that one hard to believe with their amount of evades. I've seen a D/D thief pretty handily clean several SB's clocks with little effort.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

> @"Red Haired Savage.5430" said:

> > @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

>

> > D/D thief for example should never beat a warrior in any circumstance... ever. It literally mathematically cannot win a fight unless the spellbreaker MASSIVELY misplays as I learned in my attempts to try and win with my dueling request thread.

>

> I find that one hard to believe with their amount of evades. I've seen a D/D thief pretty handily clean several SB's clocks with little effort.

>

 

If a SB is letting a thief evade everything with DB and dying to it, the SB is bad no matter how you spin it. DB's evade has a massive aftercast delay that allows it to pretty much be cc-locked by anything and the warrior's rotation is shorter than the thief's. DB also does no damage and the CnD + Stab is extremely easy to negate when it happens. Plus if playing Knight/Cav it'll take multiple successsful CnD + Backstab combos even coming from the most glassy damage-based thief possible. A defensive build, even like Marauder, will require anywhere from four to six (each requiring 5 initiative), and attempting to make trades while revealed into the warrior is fruitless if they're playing Axe, because Axe just simply does higher relative damage with massive burst potential with the amount of extra armor and base hp the warrior has.

 

D/D generally can't afford Acro in its build and things like UH are wasted most of the time because DB usage applies no pressure and is so prone to counterplay, particularly into bull's charge/shield bash or even a well-timed eviscerate if the warrior understands the mechanics of D/D. Mathematically speaking, D/D in its initiative needs is unable to simply defend against the warrior's invuln burst rotation if played with Axe for a long enough period of time without resetting, and it lacks a safe re-engage if it tries to reset due to the limitations of its kit. Further, it is also out of initiative by this point in the fight, and by the time it has available initiative and cooldowns to re-engage safely, the warrior's have already mostly reset. By the time multiple CnD backstab combos can be pulled off, the entirety of the warrior's are also available. Additionally, GS has much better mobility than D/D does, and is comparable to shortbow on flat ground, allowing the warrior to reset from the thief playing D/D if it so chooses to, making follow-up from D/D impossible without burning the initiative it needs to actually achieve damage. In all seriousness, the best move a thief playing D/D can make if running shortbow is to try and 1v1 the spellbreaker just with shortbow. And even then... perfect play needed, and it's a long, long fight.

 

You also know if the thief enters stealth while playing D/D, he's in melee range, so an immediate swap -> Arcing Slice or just using Full Counter will force a disengage 9 times out of 10 or cripple him to the point where a whirlwind as soon as he self-reveals attempting a backstab will finish the job. With the aforementioned mobility on GS, you can just keep chasing and applying pressure. By denying the thief initiative and keeping its HP low this way, it cannot risk a CnD to reset with stealth as an Arcing slice or FC after CnD will just kill it, and D/D's terrible mobility make it depend on shadowstep, which is on a longer cooldown than Rush/Bull's Charge and requires consumption of a critical stunbreak. Ultimately, the goal should just be aggression because D/D's resources are extremely limited.

 

Acro/DrD S/D thief and Imrov S/D core can sustain into a warrior but that's moreso because of the traits and cooldown resets via Improv and resetting steal via S/D dodges respectively and not the weapon combinations themselves. That said, it's also a total combination; UH does not pair well with D/D due to DB's bad evade frames, and most of Acro is sword-exclusive while it works excellently with S/D, and S/D's unblockable boon stealing can change the fight when the warrior uses its shield to block, while all BV does is proc passive Balanced Stance.

 

D/D except played condi in WvW with Dire/TB stats (being able to tank some of the burst) should **never** beat a warrior running Axe who understands the matchup, unless the warrior's build allows for D/D to gain leverage or simply win a fight using a single CnD + Stab once (by being pure glass with no defenses).

[Rysdude.3824]

Great information everyone, thank you! I’ve swapped to axe/shield and GS with more success in my fights. Im currently running full marauder with zerk trinkets and weapons. Was perhaps thinking of going full zerk, or some type of Power Toughness armor stat to better help against power builds.

[ZeroSkitzo.5403]

Off topic but how important is ascended gear in wvw? I’m a casual player (just finished pof story) with full exotic berserker gear and ascended ammy I got from tp and with laurels. I like SB in spvp since all gear is “equal” but thought I may try wvw for something different.

[Warkind.6745]

> @"ZeroSkitzo.5403" said:

> Off topic but how important is ascended gear in wvw? I’m a casual player (just finished pof story) with full exotic berserker gear and ascended ammy I got from tp and with laurels. I like SB in spvp since all gear is “equal” but thought I may try wvw for something different.

 

Exotic armor is pretty standard in WvW. As long as you have the right runes and food, you're not going to be at any terrible disadvantage. Even enhancements are kind of negligible.

[Arheundel.6451]

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> A good core sword/dagger thief will never lose against a warrior or spellbreaker, it counters the class pretty hard, you can kill him if he makes few mistakes and you land your cc and burst skills on the perfect moment.

>

> About mesmer, especially mirage, you have to keep the pressure on him constant, find the enemy always targeted between the 20 clones he spawns, proccing full counter wont be that hard against a mirage because of clones, dagger is good too to cc him once he used already his evades and invuln.

>

> Proccing full counter against that kind of thief is way hard, and if he is good enough he will immediately evade of procced full counter by mistakes.

>

> As spellbreaker you have a chance to win against every single profession, but against some you have to play perfectly and land all the ccs or you wont make it through.

 

> @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> A good core sword/dagger thief will never lose against a warrior or spellbreaker, it counters the class pretty hard, you can kill him if he makes few mistakes and you land your cc and burst skills on the perfect moment.

>

> About mesmer, especially mirage, you have to keep the pressure on him constant, find the enemy always targeted between the 20 clones he spawns, proccing full counter wont be that hard against a mirage because of clones, dagger is good too to cc him once he used already his evades and invuln.

>

> Proccing full counter against that kind of thief is way hard, and if he is good enough he will immediately evade of procced full counter by mistakes.

>

> As spellbreaker you have a chance to win against every single profession, but against some you have to play perfectly and land all the ccs or you wont make it through.

 

I wonder if a berseker condi with torch would prove to be a challenge for a s/d thief

[Loading.4503]

You stand there like youre afk or just gave up, and when they just start auto attacking you,you burst them when they dont expect it >.>

 

Ok that really only works like sometimes lol... and by sometimes i really mean like even less times than that

[RedShark.9548]

> @"Arheundel.6451" said:

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > A good core sword/dagger thief will never lose against a warrior or spellbreaker, it counters the class pretty hard, you can kill him if he makes few mistakes and you land your cc and burst skills on the perfect moment.

> >

> > About mesmer, especially mirage, you have to keep the pressure on him constant, find the enemy always targeted between the 20 clones he spawns, proccing full counter wont be that hard against a mirage because of clones, dagger is good too to cc him once he used already his evades and invuln.

> >

> > Proccing full counter against that kind of thief is way hard, and if he is good enough he will immediately evade of procced full counter by mistakes.

> >

> > As spellbreaker you have a chance to win against every single profession, but against some you have to play perfectly and land all the ccs or you wont make it through.

>

> > @"whoknocks.4935" said:

> > A good core sword/dagger thief will never lose against a warrior or spellbreaker, it counters the class pretty hard, you can kill him if he makes few mistakes and you land your cc and burst skills on the perfect moment.

> >

> > About mesmer, especially mirage, you have to keep the pressure on him constant, find the enemy always targeted between the 20 clones he spawns, proccing full counter wont be that hard against a mirage because of clones, dagger is good too to cc him once he used already his evades and invuln.

> >

> > Proccing full counter against that kind of thief is way hard, and if he is good enough he will immediately evade of procced full counter by mistakes.

> >

> > As spellbreaker you have a chance to win against every single profession, but against some you have to play perfectly and land all the ccs or you wont make it through.

>

> I wonder if a berseker condi with torch would prove to be a challenge for a s/d thief

 

why would he? torch is still mainly melee, berserker will easely be kited and second sword 2 is a condi remove, pretty much always cleansing burn