The questionable morality of the Guildwars universe and its impact on the game as a whole

[STIHL.2489]

Keep in mind.. this is unintentional.

 

As I said, Faolain does not know she is doing the work of the dragon, she does not know that she is being used as his puppet serving his ends and agendas. But notice she goes from seeking acceptance and having her own path to a continual quest to undermine the Pale Tree. It would not be enough for her to simply walk away, she wants the pale Tree Dead and the Dream Destroyed, Turned to Nightmare, Back to the Dragon's true purpose for his creations, killers, murderess, monsters, out to subdue the world, not live in peace with it.

 

But if you read the story text, that was not her original motive, her first motive was freedom to carve her own path and this comes back again, when Faolain says that the Nightmare Court is about Freedom, but notice how her goals change once she moves to the Nightmare Court, suddenly.. wanting to find something _evil_ on the Pale Tree, suddenly.. she can't let Wynne's Secret Sit, and she will kill anyone and anything to get that bit of information that will somehow bring down the Pale Tree (The Rouge Herald) and all her "Rebel" offspring.

 

We see this more vividly in our Personal Story with Malyck who comes from some "Other Tree" , and Faolain wants him so she can use him to Undo the Pale Tree.

 

That kind of change pace, that direction is not simply someone who wants to take another direction or wants freedom to be a Rose or a Thorn,.. no.. this is someone that wants to now burn the garden to the ground.

 

As I said tho, this was not direct control, this was a subconscious whisper in the back of her mind, insidious, the dragon is asleep at this point, so it just a base desire influencing them not the Dragons direct control.

 

Again, like the Sons of Svanir, they are using the dragons power, and doing the Dragons will, and thus becoming corrupted by it, but not being turned into full fledged branded.

[Diviner.4517]

Well the thing is, given how _other_ villains are written in this game, her entire change in personality can simply be that she's growing more evil. Not necessarily that she's doing the dragon's bidding. I would love it if Modremoth had actually masterminded everything, if there was some double twist in the plot where Faolain _thinks_ she's following her own path and doesn't answer to anyone only to discover down the line that Modremoth _let_ her think that in order to become a better tool at his disposal. But given all of my original posts, I think this would be giving too much credit to the game's story authors.

 

It's like Mass Effect 3's ending (the original one). It was so unsatisfying that fans of that game came up with their own Indoctrination theory that supposedly explained everything in a cool and deep way. But after the Director's cut we realized it was only just a theory, and the game's author really did write the story as simplistic as it seemed.

 

**You** might actually be more adept in writing Faolain's character than her author actually is.

[deatine.2498]

I do not really agree. The fact that you can clearly get all of those thoughts and information from the game itself shows that it wasn't indended to be seen as very black and white.

 

Especially in the core game, you just happen to be thrown into the whole mess as part of a specific faction - I don't know why you assume the faction you belong to necessarily consists of the good guys. I mean, maybe it's because I started out as Charr so it was rather clear to me to begin with: every race has their (massive) issues.

 

> And with Modremoth's death, Sylvari should be free to choose their own paths. But they're not, because straying from the Pale Tree's decision means you're evil.

 

The Soundless reject the Pale Tree, but don't count as evil. Maybe because they don't go around murdering people for funsies. Rejecting authority is not the reason for being seen as evil in this case, which I think is actually an important point here.

 

>Him being a lich is all the justification we need to not trust him, not help him and even striking him down first, an action that the Commander has never done before or shown any inclination of doing.

 

>in any other circumstance our attitude against Joko when we first arrive in Amnoon, when we know absolutely nothing about him, is tantamount to racism.

 

My attitude was completely neutral and at that point and the game did nothing to help me decide. At all. I actually read up on Joko before deciding who to side with, and I still chose to keep Amnoon neutral because at that point, you could not make out the evil guy. I'm not sure how you reached the conclusion of Joko being evil that early.

 

I started hating him upon learning that he poisions and kills citizens because he needs more mindless zombies, and then throws useless zombies into a huge pit to rot "alive". He also actively starves and kills people who simply would prefer to leave his kingdom.

Also, and this is not in the main story so you might have missed it, [he keeps a harem of individuals of different races](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forbidden_Vault) that are forced to stay due to extortion ("your daughter/son comes and stays with me and I will make sure your village won't get burned down (by me)").

 

So while I agree he is written as an evil character in the end, it is not because of the reasons you mention. The fact that he's a lich is completely irrelevant to his evilness in this game. Which I think is an important point, too. ALso, many of the Awakened are shown as normal, caring members of society.

 

Rejecting authority, being different (a rotting corpse, that is), or what have you are _not_ reasons to be seen as evil in this game; it's peoples' actions that get them labeled as evil.

[STIHL.2489]

I admit, I could be reading a lot more into the Sylvari Story then what was intended, but, keep these things in mind as you check out the story mode.

 

Only 2 Sylvari knew that they were "of the Dragon" that is Wynnie and Caithe (and later the Player), this is also a fact that the Pale Tree knew all along, that she was a Dragon Herald.

 

Every Sylvari is a Dragon Minion of Mordermoth, exactly like every Destroyer is a Minion of Primordus, Sylvari do not have a choice in this matter, they can't chose to be a minion or not, the only choice they have is if they will obey their creator.

 

Now,. here is a few twists, as people bring up the Mordrum, not having a choice, but if you listen to their chat, they are self aware, they will often express regret for their failure, as such, they might have a choice, but they have no reason not to serve their creator. Which is something to think about, remember, there is a war going on for them, and they have chosen their side, the Pact, and all the beings of Tyria are coming to kill their creator, of course they are not going to try and have tea and crumpets with us, they are going to try and kill us, just as we would try to kill anyone coming to invade our cities and kill our leaders and family.

 

The thing here, is that Moderm do not know what they are doing could be wrong, they are oblivious to any evil in their actions.

 

Which brings us back to the Nightmare Court, the Nightmare Court is the same way, it is not simply that they are evil, it is that they don't see what they are doing as evil. Unlike the Flame Legion or the Sons of Svanir, the Separatist, or even the Inquest for that matter, all of whom are pretty open about the fact they want to see the world burn, they have no illusions about their alliance and their goals. Which is ironic because both the Inquest and the Sons are welcome in their respective cities. But that is for another story.

 

The Nightmare Court does not even realize what they are doing is in fact evil, they don't see it as good either, it is just the way they are, they are in essence following their 'true' nature, which is a very apt way to put it.

 

See, people think the Dream and the Nightmare are flip sides of the same realm,. but they are not, the Nightmare was first, it is Mordermouth, as such the Mordrum only know the Nightmare, unlike the Nightmare Court that also knew the Dream, which gave them free will.

 

See the Dream is a creation of the Pale Tree, it is in a sense "Warped Nightmare" where she created a veil for her children, a shield to protect them from the Dragon's power, this was the Dream, a Bubble Realm within the Nightmare. That is why, when we start our story, the Nightmare is what.. that's right.. the Shadow of the Dragon, the Loyal Herald of the Dragon, coming to claim the rouge minions for their master and slay the Traitor Herald.

 

Now again keep in mind the Dragon is asleep, so he is not the mastermind behind this, the Nightmare Court is simply reverting to their true nature, a nature of destruction, a nature of subjugating the world around them, like self aware destroyers, that have embraced their nature, but not their master. Which is the irony here, The Nightmare Court preaches fierce individuality, being subservient to no one, and loyal to no one as well. So they are in every sense, rouge dragon minions, unlike the Mordrum which are loyal to the Dragon that Created them. IE: Nightmare Court are Chaotic Evil, where Mordrum are Lawful Evil.

 

Now, here is a really deep part, Ventari's Tablet is what is allowing the Pale Tree to be Free, notice she cradles it in her inner sanctum, it has never left her, and it is in it's own right, a powerful artifact that is stopping the Dragons Control of the Pale Tree, think of this way, Ventari's Tablet is like a Magical Amulet given to the Pale Tee to stop Her Nightmares.

 

But, the Pale Tree, unlike her children, needs to obey the Tablet for it work on her, that is why.. someone as powerful as the Pale Tree, a living city, a dragon herald, who could literally kill anyone and everyone within her, did not even try to stop or bring any harm to Faolain and the other court for their dissent, even as she knew they would return to their True Nature, become like the Dragon that spawned them.. as "All things have a right to grow, the Blossom is Brother to the Weed" she had to let the Court Fall into Nightmare, she had to let them return to their true Dragon Minion Roots.. if she didn't.. SHE would have fallen into Service back to the Dragon.

 

There is a lot more going on with this.. but really the Sylvari story is really a well woven story, like, really deep down the rabbit hole, it's also a very difficult story, unlike Glint that was just given her freedom from a ritual and then fought her old master, pumped out a few eggs, and died gloriously in battle, the Pale Tree is waging a war against her master and trying to save Tyria the only way she can, by making her own army, and the Nightmare Court is a huge set back for her in that regard.. in fact, to the Pale Tree, that is akin to doing the Dragons Work for Him.

[Diviner.4517]

I would argue that Mordrem do not possess free will in the same sense that Zhaitan's undead minions do not possess free will. Even those undead minions that do speak (such as the Eye of Zhaitan), only speak as extensions of Zhaitan himself. Not having free will does not necessarily mean being in a Hive Mind. You can still maintain your individuality and have all your actions controlled. Those are two different things.

 

And the reason why I mention Zhaitan, is because after his death, his Domain (Death) is absorbed by Mordremoth, which gives him the power to create new Mordrem out of husks and corpses. It's a blend of undead and plant life. Also you mention Mordrem as being "true" Sylvari but do not forget that other races become Mordrem as well. We rescue soldiers of all races from cocoons in the game, and they were all going to join Mordremoth's forces. This points to the authors wanting us to draw parallels between Zhaitan's minions and Mordremoth's minions.

 

_However_, in the spirit of intellectual honesty, while looking up Mordrem in the wiki to write the paragraph above, I came across a passage that partially defends your position.

 

>Because they are protected by the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams, the sylvari are immune to corruption by Elder Dragons, a fact which was taken advantage of by the Pact by forming all-sylvari units such as the Pale Reavers.

 

This is clear evidence that the Nightmare Court lacks this protection, and quite possibly is being led into a dark path, the Nightmare being the Corruption of the Elder Dragons in general.

 

The reason why I said partially though is because in the next paragraph it says:

 

>However, they are very vulnerable to mental corruption by Mordremoth to the point where mere proximity and the intensity of the voice masking itself as the sylvari's own thoughts or a false sensation of a Wyld Hunt or Dark Hunt can be enough to turn them to the dragon's side. Sylvari refer to this phenomenon as "The Call", and they must continually fight to keep from being subsumed.

 

Meaning that Mordremoth's Call is something far stronger than the Elder Dragon Corruption, and even though Ventari Tablets allow all Sylvari that follow them to simply shrug off that corruption, when it comes to the Call, all Sylvari are equally susceptible, and it does not matter whether they follow the Tablets or not.

 

So we come down to several facts about the Sylvari.

 

* The tablets allow them to resist the Elder Dragon Corruption

* The Nightmare Court is becoming evil as a result of not being immune to it

* Mordremoth's Call can't be stopped by the Ventari Tablets

 

This explains why the madness that spreads throughout the Sylvari is universal at the beginning of HoT. This also explains why you formed your original theory.

 

The two problems that arise after this conclusion is that for starters, we had to dig deep into the lore to discover motivations that should be apparent from the storyline itself, and also that the moral duality I mention in the original post is still upheld. We still have clear definitions of good and evil and no gray areas explored. It's just that we now have a second reason the Nightmare Court is stereotypically evil other than its will to resist authority : they reject the protection of an artifact that would make them "good". Again I would suggest you watch the video in the very bottom of my original post. It's _exactly_ the same situation handled better by better authors.

[STIHL.2489]

Some Minor Points and corrections.

 

Ventauri's Tablet only Directly Protects the Pale Tree. The Pale Tree Created the Dream to Protect her Children. As such it is the Dream and Clinging TO the Dream that Offers Sylvari the most Resistance to their Creators Call.

 

Also, Sylvari are _Immune_ to other elder Dragon Corruption because they **are** Dragon Minions, much in the same way a Risen or Destroyers can't become a Ice Brood or Branded, because they were created by another Dragon.

 

The Nightmare Court have accepted the Corruption of their Mordermoth in the same way Sons of Svanir have Accepted the Corruption of Jormag, with the distinctive difference between the two being the Sons at least know what they are serving, and the Sylvari are part of the Dragon itself, much in the same way, Vlast and Aurene are still and will always be part of Kralkatorrik. While Glint was freed from her bonds, and conferred their freedom to her children, they are still Of the Dragon, the same way Sylvari of Of the Dragon.

 

Now, getting back to why they are Evil.

 

Well they are Serving the Dragon, they are ruthless destroyers of life, and corrupts of their own people. Look what they do to Sylvari Hounds and even Other Sylvari, to turn them to the Nightmare, they beat them, break their will, and corrupt them.. just like their Dragon Master.

 

So they are really, not different then Mordrum in their desire to kill and destroy this world around them and corrupt the world, they are just unwitting pawns under the illusion they have a choice, which makes individuals like Faolain and Cadeyrn far worse then the Modrum as they took this path of their own free will, and then turned around and forced others to join them.

 

So in short, Faolain was already a Mordrum, just a high enough ranking one to have her wits about her, mainly due to the fact that the Dragon was still sleeping, but once the Dragon Woke up, they may have rejected being enslaved, but they embraced the Corruption. A lot like, say.. Rojan the Penitent, who saw the folly of Jormag, but.. notice, he is still corrupted, that would be like the remaining Nightmare court, but.. in the end.. they are still corrupted.

 

Now they are evil.. not simply because they will enslave and torture their own people to break their will and turn them to Nightmare (which, to be honest would be enough to want to get rid of them), they are Evil not simply because they want to Kill the Pale Tree and Find the "Other Tree" to create their own Sylvari Army in Service to the Nightmare (Ergo, Find the other Loyal Herald, and make a Legion of Mordum under their Own Control, which also would be enough a motive to want to get rid of them), they are Evil not only because they will kill anyone and everyone that gets in their way (Which again, would be enough a motive to not want the Apocalyptic Preaching Psychopaths around)

 

They are Evil.. because of ALL those things combined... and more.

 

It is not simply a lack of following the Pale Tree that has made them Evil, is it that their Acceptance of the Corruption of Mordermoth, and becoming Mordrum, out to destroy the world, for their Dragon Master.. and doing so.. for some of them.. of their Own Free Will.

 

Which in many ways.. makes them worse then Mordrum, who as others have said.. didn't really have a choice.

 

The question is not.. if they are Evil. They are, but it is not simply because they have moved away from the Pale Tree.

 

[STIHL.2489]

Also I believe converting other races into Mordum is a new thing for Mordermoth, that happened only after he absorbed the powers of death when Zhaitan died. As you explore HoT, it's clear they had to kinda figure that one out and were still in the expermental incubation process phase, working out the details and such. I am sure if they had this means for a long time, there would be no frogs or bugs left in the Heart of Magumma much in the same way there is no life left in Orr . Notice, even the fish and other aquatic animals, which should be immune to a city sinking, are also undead.

 

So that whole Spreading Corruption was a new trait line for the Jungle Dragon, as Mordermoth like Primordus created their minions, they did not corrupt them. I am sure, if Primordus takes on the powers of death, he too will start to build a means to corrupt the life on the planet, as opposed to just manufacturing minions.

[Trise.2865]

One might argue that the appeal of characters such as the Nightmare Court or the Inquest is their relatability; their reasonable-sounding philosophies tainted only by their extreme methods. They are "evil" only because they are in direct opposition to us; antagonists rather than villains. How easy and reasonable it might be to become like them should be terrifying.

 

That being said, there are two major points about the Nightmare Court specifically, and their relationship to Mordremoth. First, they are still protected by the Pale Tree. Regardless of their behavior, they remain connected to the Dream (they couldn't accomplish their goals otherwise). As such, they enjoy the same protections the Dreamers have. They are not a separate entity, nor do they "serve" a different Dream. They are merely troubled children "playing" with forces they don't fully understand, and the Mother Tree describes them thus. This means the Courtiers are just as capable of resisting Mordremoth using force of will as Trahearne, Canach, Laranthir, and Sylvari Commanders. Second, The Courtiers are still more vulnerable to Mordremoth's influence. They are hedonistic, refuse to use restraint, and act impulsively. Their willpower is much lesser than other Sylvari, even though their personalities may still be strong, as Faolain was... and we know what happened to her.

 

I also have a theory: Nightmare Courtiers are already partially transformed Mordrem. The same process that "awakened" them to the nightmare is used to reprogram and rebuild them into Mordrem. But, because they used their own understanding and technology, taken only from and still protected by the Pale Tree, they couldn't complete the transformation. This also explains why the ones fallen ~~to the Dark Side~~ into nightmare "can never return".

[Diviner.4517]

I would like to respond to both of you if I may because it seems you both try to make the same point.

 

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> Now they are evil.. not simply because they will enslave and torture their own people to break their will and turn them to Nightmare (which, to be honest would be enough to want to get rid of them), they are Evil not simply because they want to Kill the Pale Tree and Find the "Other Tree" to create their own Sylvari Army in Service to the Nightmare (Ergo, Find the other Loyal Herald, and make a Legion of Mordum under their Own Control, which also would be enough a motive to want to get rid of them), they are Evil not only because they will kill anyone and everyone that gets in their way (Which again, would be enough a motive to not want the Apocalyptic Preaching Psychopaths around)

>

> They are Evil.. because of ALL those things combined... and more.

 

Oh I agree with you, I never tried to claim they _aren't_ evil. In fact when in my original post I analyzed Faolain's character, I specifically said that

 

> @"Diviner.4517" said:

> Of course as with Caudecus, so with Faolain, the case here is not that she's good. She is bitter and sad, and her betrayal caused the death of Eir Stegalkin, but she's not actually punished for that. We learn to hate her because the Pale Tree is defined as "good" and by definition anyone against it must be "evil". She's a rebel, and Guildwars has no tolerance for rebels and gray areas - unless the rebel is the player character. Which brings us to Palawa Joko and the player's involvement in dethroning him.

 

As @"Trise.2865" above said, "They are "evil" only because they are in direct opposition to us; antagonists rather than villains." And the Pale Tree functions as a point of contrast, a shining beacon of light and everyone that opposes that light is evil. We never _empathize_ with the Nightmare Court's goals because they're so irrevocably and irredeemably evil. No gray area to make us question our actions even slightly as we antagonize them.

 

I apologize if my original post came off as a way to justify the evils of this world. It wasn't its intention. The focus has always been that the game does not take advantage of the morally gray areas its lore sets up, and instead plays it safe with concrete definitions of what's good and what's evil. And that makes for uninsteresting and uninspiring characters, both villains and heroes. The fact that often what's presented as evil is simply rebellion against the established authority is just a side note, and a derivative of the fact that the game presents the established authority as undeniably good. Of course there's more reasons why the Court is evil beyond their rebelion against the Pale Tree. But we never needed those extra reasons (which is why they're mostly contained in the wiki and not the actual in-game dialogues). All the game deems we need is a well defined "good" to serve as a guide to what's evil.

 

A properly written story would have never touched the words good and evil, as in the real world they're subjective and volatile. Of course maybe you agreed with me on this point and your only objection was towards what specifically constitutes the Nightmare Court as evil. It's been a long conversation, I may have lost your original point along the way.

 

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> I also have a theory: Nightmare Courtiers are already partially transformed Mordrem. The same process that "awakened" them to the nightmare is used to reprogram and rebuild them into Mordrem. But, because they used their own understanding and technology, taken only from and still protected by the Pale Tree, they couldn't complete the transformation. This also explains why the ones fallen ~~to the Dark Side~~ into nightmare "can never return".

 

You're partially correct and partially wrong. According to the wiki, all Sylvari are Mordrem, regardless of who they follow. They are infact the only pure Mordrem:

 

> The sylvari are a purified form of Mordrem, born from the Pale Tree that was freed of Mordremoth's corruption by unknown means.

[source](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordrem "source")

 

> @"Trise.2865" said:

> They are "evil" only because they are in direct opposition to us; antagonists rather than villains. How easy and reasonable it might be to become like them should be terrifying.

 

I think the game treats them purely as villains instead of antagonists (and I object to that). @"STIHL.2489" 's points on the preceding post on what makes them evil reinforces this notion.

[STIHL.2489]

I am hard pressed to say a group (like the Nightmare Court) that wants to enslave their own race and genocide or subjugate all the other races of Tyria, being played off as Villains simply because they are _Rebels_

 

That is far beyond simple rebellion against the Pale Tree.

 

To use another example, the Inquest is more the _Rebel_ group, and yet while they are allowed to be in Rata Sum, they are just considered unethical (Which is saying a lot for a race like the Asura), as we delve deeper, with the inquest, we end up fighting them more to save them and others from their own insanity, as opposed to just trying to topple their organization.

 

See, Caithe is more then willing to kill every single Nightmare Court, because she knows they have irredeemably fallen into Dragon Corruption. To Cathe the Nightmare Court are like Branded, Ice Brood, or Risen, and while other Sylvari do not know this, they know something is _wrong_ with them and it's far more then a simple act of rebellion or _mommy_ issues.

 

On top of that, the Nightmare Court only have the illusion of choice, and I mean Illusion, as they can't ever free themselves from the Nightmare, so it's not a matter of if they will succumb completely to the Dragon and lose themselves to the Corruption.. but how long they can resist _the Call_.

 

It was vastly different when Mordermouth was sleeping, as it was just their true nature seeping into them, but now that he awoke and was slain, The Nightmare has also been awoken and Some other Dragon will take over the realm of the Mind and control the Nightmare as their own, and will either Awaken sometime in the future and Call the Corrupted Sylvari again, or is Awake and will slowly crush down all Nightmare Court's resistance.

 

But them being _Evil_ is not simply a matter of them rebelling against their Pale Tree Mother. In fact, the Pale Tree offers remorse for them, not scorn. We fight them because they have a hatred for Dream Sylvari.

[Diviner.4517]

I agree with everything you said. Even about their rebellion not being the only _true_ reason we fight them. This in turn raises two issues I mentioned above in another one of my replies to you. That for one, they're not gray, they're purely evil, which has always been my initial concern, and secondly, it's not what we're presented with while playing the story. It's the deduction after delving into the lore from outside sources. This last point of mine is actually irrelevant to the overall discussion, I'd just like it if they presented us with more depth during the Personal Stories.

 

But the first point isn't irrelevant, it's the entire focus of my thesis; no villains are gray in this game, they're either white or black, regardless of whether the background lore would support gray areas. Do you disagree with that?

[Ardid.7203]

The morality in this game is way too weird. Most of it is truly grey. However there are almost no direct consequences to the grey culprits: only the unrealistically evil ones get any problem. The commander and its allies, on the other hand, have an ultra-fluffy indestructible plot armor nothing can pierce, no matter how questionable their actions could be. Society just cant judge them because they are labeled as heroes.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Diviner.4517" said:

> I agree with everything you said. Even about their rebellion not being the only _true_ reason we fight them. This in turn raises two issues I mentioned above in another one of my replies to you. That for one, they're not gray, they're purely evil, which has always been my initial concern, and secondly, it's not what we're presented with while playing the story. It's the deduction after delving into the lore from outside sources. This last point of mine is actually irrelevant to the overall discussion, I'd just like it if they presented us with more depth during the Personal Stories.

>

> But the first point isn't irrelevant, it's the entire focus of my thesis; no villains are gray in this game, they're either white or black, regardless of whether the background lore would support gray areas. Do you disagree with that?

 

I'm going to admit, I kinda like it when I am not beaten over the head with info dumps and having everything spelled out for me in a game, unraveling parts of the story/lore is a whole enjoyable aspect of the game for me. So, them not spelling this out was a treat to find out later why there was such black and white line among the Pale Tree Sylvari and Nightmare Court.

 

With that said, you have a solid point, that it felt like you were only getting half the story and as it stands, we were, because Anet had planned to make a huge reveal with HoT about the Sylvari, as I understood it, it was supposed to be even more involved then it was finally put in as, and it was a huge drawn out story as it's limited telling.

 

Now.. I am going to have to admit, I got a lot more wrapped up in the Sylvari story then the other Races, and the only other one I know pretty good is Norn, but, the Norn story goes back to GW1, which I did not play, so there is a lot I am missing, and they have not had their own reveal yet.. maybe with the next expansion they will delve into the Norn story and give us some really keen insight into the Sons and how they Work.

 

As far as the Inquest goes.. Asura in general are ~~borderline~~ psychopaths, so any group that can be unethical to them.. is downright scary, even then, we spend more time trying to save others from the insanity of the inquest then the Inquest being just evil. They are more, simply destructive and devoid of morality, which given their entire race, is not really _evil_ just.. Irresponsible.

[CETheLucid.3964]

> @"Diviner.4517" said:

> The problem with Guildwars universe is that it has **too clearly defined borders of what good and evil is**. And this is hurting both its NPCs and its history, especially given the fact that many times it provides enough background information to suggest that nuance should exist, but it never acknowledges or does anything with it.

[Castigator.3470]

Well, there's Ascalon, which is pretty grey. You have the Legions of Blood Ash and Iron, which are military societies, as in the charr are not technically oppressed, there's likely a charr equivalent of the Vorgesetztenverordnung, but in the society of the legions everyone has to answer to a superior. That trader, who sells meat on the Perimeter Loop? He answers to his legionnaire, who is likely in charge of that market. His centurion might be in charge of the mercantile activity in the citadel. In turn that centurion reports either to Tribune Goreblade, or the Tribune in charge of the supply chain. Both report to the Imperator.

 

Then there's the history of Ascalon, which is a topic that regularly causes lengthy discussions on here. Which is a good thing, as it keeps the Official Forum alive and trains the grey matter.

Flame Legion is another elephant in the room. Even the other legions dislike them for their attempts to subjugate other charr using underhanded tactic and lies. And boy do charr hate being lied to.

When talking about the history of Ascalon, the city of Ebonhawke is bound to be brought up at some point, much like the Separatists and the Renegades. Both are seen as criminal by their respective society.

And to round things up you have the Branded, which are in many ways similar to a broken HDD.

Despite all that, there are tourists visiting the Black Citadel and even a legion approved tour guide.

[norbes.3620]

Well at least I can say I was also a Bit dissappointed that the nightmare Court was just too evil in their Actions cuz it did not fit their Ideals.

With Hot a Lot that cleared up a Lot

 

and it's Definetly rare that I ask myself "am I doing the right thing.. am I killing the right People?".

This can be a fun aspect but it's difficult to handle. On the contrary in ls3 pof my Charakter got pretty much the golden "whatever u wanna Do will be alright" card cuz everyone expect me to Do a Good thing. This Stands out thanks to Braham the whiny moron Who oppose this cuz of stupid reasons. But in the end the own Charakter is one of the most Grey Person ..

 

Good in General but by the Time too used to Act unquestioned and that everyone follow the orders given to em by the PC

 

Kito is a Grey Person too atm but that propably will change soon

 

 

[ThiBash.5634]

It's not just the evil guys that are one-dimensional. It applies to some minor npcs as well.

 

Take Lord Faren for example. When you first meet him in the human noble storyline, he's a superficial noble and a woman chaser, but there's more to him than that. Once the npc gets him out of trouble, he instantly joins the rescue mission regardless of the danger to himself. Later on, it is hinted that he got dismissed from the Krytan Ministry due to his caring for commoners. He even goes to save (fake) Queen Jenna with great danger to himself without a second thought. He's obviously not a great hero, but his heart is in the right place.

 

And then the story slowly turns him into a stereotypical talk-the-talk-but-cannot-walk-the-walk hero that runs around without clothes and is completely oblivious to the things happening around him. Which is quite a shame imho because I kinda liked him in the beginning.

[norbes.3620]

> @"ThiBash.5634" said:

> It's not just the evil guys that are one-dimensional. It applies to some minor npcs as well.

>

> Take Lord Faren for example. When you first meet him in the human noble storyline, he's a superficial noble and a woman chaser, but there's more to him than that. Once the npc gets him out of trouble, he instantly joins the rescue mission regardless of the danger to himself. Later on, it is hinted that he got dismissed from the Krytan Ministry due to his caring for commoners. He even goes to save (fake) Queen Jenna with great danger to himself without a second thought. He's obviously not a great hero, but his heart is in the right place.

>

> And then the story slowly turns him into a stereotypical talk-the-talk-but-cannot-walk-the-walk hero that runs around without clothes and is completely oblivious to the things happening around him. Which is quite a shame imho because I kinda liked him in the beginning.

 

There is still the hypothesis of faren being E.

A Person with Intel and insight comparable to the Order of whispers or shining Blade while He just play the Dandy nobel. Supported is this theory by the fact that He Shows up everywhere where is Action as an easy to dismiss trespasser

[Overlord RainyDay.2084]

I do agree the interaction with Joko in the Domain of the Lost was a mistake. A real missed opportunity to give us some choice, even if it was just in some throwaway dialogue that wouldn't matter later.

 

In the beginning, if you might remember, the game sort of had a morality system. You got choices in how you responded to NPCs and your character got a rating of noble, charming, or aggressive. It's been mostly torn out by now, ut the vestiges still exist in older content, and a few of the recent additions have given a the option in a few situation to respond to NPCs with the same crown, heart, and fist options. This is what the interaction with Joko lacked. Something like:

(Fist) Taunt Joko.

(Crown) Tell him you don't trust him.

(Heart) Lie that you don't know how to free him.

You'd feel like you had some choice about how your character would respond, and we could still have Joko returning in the LS, fuming that we didn't free him and then stole his army.

[Diviner.4517]

> @"Overlord RainyDay.2084" said:

> In the beginning, if you might remember, the game sort of had a morality system. You got choices in how you responded to NPCs and your character got a rating of noble, charming, or aggressive. It's been mostly torn out by now, ut the vestiges still exist in older content, and a few of the recent additions have given a the option in a few situation to respond to NPCs with the same crown, heart, and fist options. This is what the interaction with Joko lacked.

 

It's sad that the morality choices present in the game since launch are now just a huge missed opportunity. They could have added so much nuance and intrigue. It was perfectly fine with them not being an alignment system; such a system would force the storyline to arc into too many different branches, and we already had enough variety from the non-morality based choices we made. But they could have carried _more_ weight than they ended up carrying. And perhaps some of them could persist, the game remembering them and bringing them up later in the story as an alternate dialogue line. It's subtleties like this that reinforce the illusion of choice in video games, and they're not that hard to implement (a masterful implementation of this being most if not all of Telltale's games).

 

If Mass Effect could do it in a huge scale spanning across three different titles (with choices carrying over from title to title - Andromeda doesn't count), surely an MMORPG with Guildwar's caliber could too. I guess again we'd have to attribute it to resource management, since I doubt the idea wasn't brought up in the design phase of the game.

 

I still maintain my hopes though. I hope that devs read these forums, and I know these ideas can be implemented retroactively with not too much effort. I don't think it's too late, especially as the story is still being written.

 

 

[Castigator.3470]

> @"norbes.3620" said:

> There is still the hypothesis of faren being E.

> A Person with Intel and insight comparable to the Order of whispers or shining Blade while He just play the Dandy nobel. Supported is this theory by the fact that He Shows up everywhere where is Action as an easy to dismiss trespasser

 

Not only that, he's the only person I know to have survived both the Maguuma Jungle and the Crystal desert with just a sword and a loincloth. I mean our character might be able to survive that, but it wouldn't be easy. In fact, there is a certain dissonance between his "clumsiness" and his ability to survive everything Tyria has thrown at him so far. Neither the Maguuma jungle, nor the Desert are the places where you'd just take off your armor and face the corrupted facet. This is the behaviour of elite guilds, who want to challenge themselves:"Let's do a naked bounty hunt!"

Then there's the fact that he took an eye out of Bongo, who is considered a swordmaster.

The final indicater, however, is his patron god. If you talk to Faren, he will eventually say:"May Lyssa aid you." He worships the goddess of illusion. I'm calling it: He's an expertly skilled fighter, he may be highly intelligent, but to everyone around him he's just some silly noble. I'd say he's at worst an idiot savant, whose social awkwardness may even be genuine and at best he may be E. Fare'E'n.

[Cregath.7628]

My character looks like someone from the White Mantle. That's all I'm saying.

[Elva.6372]

I just helped a druid spirit kill off a Hylek village so the Spirit could reside in his "husk".

 

> Upon arrival at the husk

> Amini Brute: Spirit, your time is over. This grove is home to us now. Leave, remain dead and never return.

> Arboreal Spirit: The Maguuma have loved this land long before your kind were spawned. Depart, and leave me with my husk.

> Amini Brute: Hylek, drive out this shadow. Break the tree. Fight!

>

> Event success

> Arboreal Spirit: Maguuma's druids will sleep in peace once more, and the wilderness shall still grow.

> Arboreal Spirit: Be at peace, kind souls. May the sun shine ever upon you for your deeds here today.

 

 

[Diviner.4517]

> @"Elva.6372" said:

> I just helped a druid spirit kill off a Hylek village so the Spirit could reside in his "husk".

>

> > Upon arrival at the husk

> > Amini Brute: Spirit, your time is over. This grove is home to us now. Leave, remain dead and never return.

> > Arboreal Spirit: The Maguuma have loved this land long before your kind were spawned. Depart, and leave me with my husk.

> > Amini Brute: Hylek, drive out this shadow. Break the tree. Fight!

> >

> > Event success

> > Arboreal Spirit: Maguuma's druids will sleep in peace once more, and the wilderness shall still grow.

> > Arboreal Spirit: Be at peace, kind souls. May the sun shine ever upon you for your deeds here today.

 

See this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine if you simply complete events for the mechanics benefits (achievements, loot, leveling) but once you start paying attention to the stories they tell, you're often faced with questionable moral choices which would have been punishable by the same authors if they were made by one of the antagonists.

 

Of course it doesn't help that there's (probably) numerous authors writing stories for all different areas of the game and they can't completely coordinate their narratives.

[Elva.6372]

> @"Diviner.4517" said:

 

> See this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's fine if you simply complete events for the mechanics benefits (achievements, loot, leveling) but once you start paying attention to the stories they tell, you're often faced with questionable moral choices which would have been punishable by the same authors if they were made by one of the antagonists.

>

> Of course it doesn't help that there's (probably) numerous authors writing stories for all different areas of the game and they can't completely coordinate their narratives.

 

I like complexity and actual moral dilemmas but all too often and throughout the whole GW2 story telling in Hearts, Events and so on - we are subjected to a somewhat depraved sense of morality.

 

It's largely an anti-hero driven story in so many ways but not in a good way. The obvious focus is the the player character who is the prime mover and shaker and catalyst who participates in numerous questionable acts showing hardly any reflection or qualms. Apathy is the norm, occasionally punctuated by a belated worry or concern and then back to the apathetic morass. The blob rolls on, never taking any real shape or form.

 

I can only guess that this was the desired goal; destroy the "hero" by not giving any power via real heroic choices. Create a pleasant sociopath, a Dexter, if you will.

 

Ugh.

 

This wouldn't be so grating if our "hero" was more dynamic but from the get go and the personal story the "hero" is voiced in the presented dialog as a sappy, tepid goody-two-shoe which is in stark contrast to subsequent actions. More often than not rather shallow and lacking even hints at hidden depths, the player character is a cheer leader and an unsophisticated bumpkin bounding about the world.

 

_(I will concede that the Humans are especially overt in this area, the other races make some allowances for racial/cultural differences - which can be refreshing in what is otherwise a desert of player character development.)_

 

It makes it really rough to hang your own RPG hat on this type of character, you have to hold your nose and squeeze your eyes shut and punch through it.

 

In GW2, we don't don't even have the fun of being an evil character - just a morally rudderless blob. It's hard to to dress blobs up into something interesting.

 

This should not to be confused with morally ambiguous characters which can be a joy to watch and play. Our "hero" is deemed to be a universal hero, never truly questioned or required to explain actions and decisions. If ANet was going for morally ambiguous hero, I think they fell short.

 

What the player character says and how they say it in game could probably have addressed this failing, but instead we get a solid line delineating a stark Jekyll and Hyde disconnect between the player dialog and the rest of the world.

 

**All things have a right to grow. The blossom is brother to the weed.**

 

_Clearly not, such things are at the heart of strife._