Nuka Cola.8520 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Turk.5460" said: > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > In the next 2 patches Mirage will be nerfed to the ground. > > > > > > > > Next QQ build will be condi thief. When that's nerfed (in the next 8 months), Spellbreaker will be the next class everyone will qq about cuz its too good at 1v1. When SB is nerfed... in a year, holo will be the thing people will cry about. During the whole duration of these nerfs, Scourge will also be changed to have less aoe spam. That's the future of this game until the next expansion. How exciting........................ > > > > > > friendly remind : people complaint about shatter mesmer before hot or trait rework . mesmer complaint thread is forever meta in pvp forum . > > > > > > people should focus on what's healthy and good gameplay , and give suggestion based on a relative practical standard instead of those overreaction over meta builds . > > > Less bandaid , more fundamental changes are what this game needs . > > > but anyway this is like every pvp forum , so don't expect it changes anytime soon . > > > > Im well aware on the mes qq'ing since launch, even when they weren't meta at all. But i've never seen so many people crying as we currently have. > > It's almost as if there's some sort of causality regarding the changes and the concerns. Hmmm.... > I don't understand how the Mirage mains are so zealously defending such broken mechanics. You guys must be pretty sub-par on the other professions if you're used to being carried by Mirage. Are you saying this to me? I already stated that the damage must be nerfed, on condi AND power one shot mirror blade combo. They should also remove Elusive Mind from the game completely. Removing condis and stuns from a simple dodge shouldn't exist in this game, and this applies to thief as well. What i don't want is for them to destroy mirage's mobility and most importantly, being able to dodge when cc'd. The whole point of mirage cloak is being able to dodge at any time, so if they remove that, what was the point of even changing the dodge roll to it? If you dodge while stunned, its not like you're breaking the actual stun without elusive mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FyzE.3472 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > Congratulations on making another Mesmer thread, the rest of them clearly weren't getting the job done. Yet you respond in every single one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > @"Turk.5460" said: > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > @"musu.9205" said: > > > > > @"Nuka Cola.8520" said: > > > > > In the next 2 patches Mirage will be nerfed to the ground. > > > > > > > > > > Next QQ build will be condi thief. When that's nerfed (in the next 8 months), Spellbreaker will be the next class everyone will qq about cuz its too good at 1v1. When SB is nerfed... in a year, holo will be the thing people will cry about. During the whole duration of these nerfs, Scourge will also be changed to have less aoe spam. That's the future of this game until the next expansion. How exciting........................ > > > > > > > > friendly remind : people complaint about shatter mesmer before hot or trait rework . mesmer complaint thread is forever meta in pvp forum . > > > > > > > > people should focus on what's healthy and good gameplay , and give suggestion based on a relative practical standard instead of those overreaction over meta builds . > > > > Less bandaid , more fundamental changes are what this game needs . > > > > but anyway this is like every pvp forum , so don't expect it changes anytime soon . > > > > > > Im well aware on the mes qq'ing since launch, even when they weren't meta at all. But i've never seen so many people crying as we currently have. > > > > It's almost as if there's some sort of causality regarding the changes and the concerns. Hmmm.... > > I don't understand how the Mirage mains are so zealously defending such broken mechanics. You guys must be pretty sub-par on the other professions if you're used to being carried by Mirage. > > Are you saying this to me? I already stated that the damage must be nerfed, on condi AND power one shot mirror blade combo. They should also remove Elusive Mind from the game completely. Removing condis and stuns from a simple dodge shouldn't exist in this game, and this applies to thief as well. What i don't want is for them to destroy mirage's mobility and most importantly, being able to dodge when cc'd. The whole point of mirage cloak is being able to dodge at any time, so if they remove that, what was the point of even changing the dodge roll to it? If you dodge while stunned, its not like you're breaking the actual stun without elusive mind. I actually have to defend Mesmers here. I don't think power Mirages damage needs to be toned down. A mere shave off of Torch burns, a rework (or nerf) of EM and perhaps a range reduction on Sword Ambush should be enough to bring the class in line without gutting it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"FyzE.3472" said: > > @"EpicTurtle.8571" said: > > Congratulations on making another Mesmer thread, the rest of them clearly weren't getting the job done. > > Yet you respond in every single one of them. Someone has to make sure the actual issues get noted rather than getting us another pointless nerf on the level of iWarlock, resultant purely from the self pity indulging threads like these. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > As has been stated many times, the problem is the devs took a class that was already considered a top pick and then massively overbuffed its core mechanics without asking themselves the basic question "What do we want this classes weakness to be?" > > > > > > Because the fact is mes is the only class that as a whole has no real weakness. You can name a problem with every other class that is objectively true, while on the flip side asking a mesmer main who thinks their class is balanced to name a single mes weakness results in them naming something that the class is merely A-tier in. > > > > > > People are getting so used to being class carried that anything below S-tier means "weak". It's actually disgusting. > > > > I was trying to make a post to explain this very concept but you did it for me. > > > > @"apharma.3741" There are tournaments ran by guilds that no one ever even mentions in this forum or in reddit, due to private invite only. It's arguable whether you want to acknowledge these as "real tournaments" or not, but they comprise the large majority of tournament activity. Arenanet supported/Shout-casted tournaments are far and in between nowadays. > > > > Why private invite only? Because private tournament organizers get tired of seeing guild hosted events pump out thousands of gold to the same 5 guys who always win. Gotta keep it hush because they'll just show up on alts if they learn about it anyway. No offense to those people who always win, just it's nice for the majority of the community to be able to participate in B list tournaments. > > No I don’t acknowledge private tournaments that are never advertised, are not open to anyone and where it is likewise debatable if they even exist as evidence that any class is being banned in tournaments. Much less that a class is overpowered when these alleged tournaments are being carried out in secret because the people playing them are not good enough to beat the top 10 players in what I’m guessing NA as you’re NA much less top 10 EU. That’s without mentioning that these people certainly have their own agenda for balance if they are not likewise banning scourge and firebrand because those 2 classes make for an extremely boring game to view. Pay attention to players who aren't top 10 a bit more often. Go ahead and peddle back through some older pvp forum and wvw forum threads, it isn't too hard to see who the people are that are hosting these "conspiracy tournaments that never happen". In fact, there is a particular crew who is currently active in public organization, who's biggest debate right now in their discord is indeed "Should we ban Mirage?" If you can't figure out who they are in this pvp subforum, I'm not going to point it out for you. I can speak for myself when I say: "I have helped Fortune [Fame] organize and run 5x tournaments now, that had gold prizes of over 2000 each tournament. Four of those tournaments were public, One has been private invite only, the Sixth will also be private invite only, happening in the end of June, and most of these were streamed by known streamers. Top 10 players showed up for every single publicized tournament, and top players were consulted when organizing the rulesets. Mirage was banned in every single tournament except two. All of these tournaments were hosted within the past 6 to 8 months. That's a lot more activity and community cohesion than UGO or Mist Challenger doing it once or twice a year. I have wvw players who will invite me to similar guild-hosted events, who also ban Mirage because it is too difficul to kill in wide open areas to the point that it becomes unreasonable to ever actually kill the Mirage. Apparently Mirage is even more ridiculous with pve gear options and they generally are unkillable targets in wvw roam situations or guild hall arenas which are much larger areas than an spvp node. Conquest is different because it's about nodes, you don't have to kill the Mirage, but in wvw styled tournaments designed around deathmatch mechanics, Mirage is far far worse than it is in spvp. Mirage is over-powered. Everyone is discussing whether it should be banned or not, some have already long banned Mirage from their tournaments, and you really can't base your defense on this topic from Arenanet Partnered sources. I'm sure banning anything is the last thing they want to do, in the interests of good commercialization and representation. But I'm 100% positive, that Mirage is definitely on their plate of discussion. I get your underlined point that "Boyer was wrong in his exact statement that ALL tournaments are banning Mirage" Yup, I made a mistake in that statement. But on the contrary, you have only pointed out two tournaments within almost a year's timeframe, that didn't. Come on man, just about half of the posts in this pvp subforum are posts about "Mirage being OP". We haven't seen THIS much complaint since S1 busted Chronobunkers, Scourges on initial release, or maybe D/D Cele Eles. <- All of which in their times, were considered SS+ unreasonably powerful builds that should have been hotfixed on the spot, or removed from play until they were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > As has been stated many times, the problem is the devs took a class that was already considered a top pick and then massively overbuffed its core mechanics without asking themselves the basic question "What do we want this classes weakness to be?" > > > > > > > > Because the fact is mes is the only class that as a whole has no real weakness. You can name a problem with every other class that is objectively true, while on the flip side asking a mesmer main who thinks their class is balanced to name a single mes weakness results in them naming something that the class is merely A-tier in. > > > > > > > > People are getting so used to being class carried that anything below S-tier means "weak". It's actually disgusting. > > > > > > I was trying to make a post to explain this very concept but you did it for me. > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" There are tournaments ran by guilds that no one ever even mentions in this forum or in reddit, due to private invite only. It's arguable whether you want to acknowledge these as "real tournaments" or not, but they comprise the large majority of tournament activity. Arenanet supported/Shout-casted tournaments are far and in between nowadays. > > > > > > Why private invite only? Because private tournament organizers get tired of seeing guild hosted events pump out thousands of gold to the same 5 guys who always win. Gotta keep it hush because they'll just show up on alts if they learn about it anyway. No offense to those people who always win, just it's nice for the majority of the community to be able to participate in B list tournaments. > > > > No I don’t acknowledge private tournaments that are never advertised, are not open to anyone and where it is likewise debatable if they even exist as evidence that any class is being banned in tournaments. Much less that a class is overpowered when these alleged tournaments are being carried out in secret because the people playing them are not good enough to beat the top 10 players in what I’m guessing NA as you’re NA much less top 10 EU. That’s without mentioning that these people certainly have their own agenda for balance if they are not likewise banning scourge and firebrand because those 2 classes make for an extremely boring game to view. > > Pay attention to players who aren't top 10 a bit more often. Go ahead and peddle back through some older pvp forum and wvw forum threads, it isn't too hard to see who the people are that are hosting these "conspiracy tournaments that never happen". In fact, there is a particular crew who is currently active in public organization, who's biggest debate right now in their discord is indeed "Should we ban Mirage?" If you can't figure out who they are in this pvp subforum, I'm not going to point it out for you. > > I can speak for myself when I say: "I have helped Fortune [Fame] organize and run 5x tournaments now, that had gold prizes of over 2000 each tournament. Four of those tournaments were public, One has been private invite only, the Sixth will also be private invite only, happening in the end of June, and most of these were streamed by known streamers. Top 10 players showed up for every single publicized tournament, and top players were consulted when organizing the rulesets. Mirage was banned in every single tournament except two. All of these tournaments were hosted within the past 6 to 8 months. That's a lot more activity and community cohesion than UGO or Mist Challenger doing it once or twice a year. I have wvw players who will invite me to similar guild-hosted events, who also ban Mirage because it is too difficul to kill in wide open areas to the point that it becomes unreasonable to ever actually kill the Mirage. Apparently Mirage is even more ridiculous with pve gear options and they generally are unkillable targets in wvw roam situations or guild hall arenas which are much larger areas than an spvp node. Conquest is different because it's about nodes, you don't have to kill the Mirage, but in wvw styled tournaments designed around deathmatch mechanics, Mirage is far far worse than it is in spvp. > > Mirage is over-powered. Everyone is discussing whether it should be banned or not, some have already long banned Mirage from their tournaments, and you really can't base your defense on this topic from Arenanet Partnered sources. I'm sure banning anything is the last thing they want to do, in the interests of good commercialization and representation. But I'm 100% positive, that Mirage is definitely on their plate of discussion. > > I get your underlined point that "Boyer was wrong in his exact statement that ALL tournaments are banning Mirage" Yup, I made a mistake in that statement. But on the contrary, you have only pointed out two tournaments within almost a year's timeframe, that didn't. > > Come on man, just about half of the posts in this pvp subforum are posts about "Mirage being OP". We haven't seen THIS much complaint since S1 busted Chronobunkers, Scourges on initial release, or maybe D/D Cele Eles. <- All of which in their times, were considered SS+ unreasonably powerful builds that should have been hotfixed on the spot, or removed from play until they were. > Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there. The point was that you were making outrageous claims that no-one could back up, which you still don't back up because barely anyone knew of them and they have now started going invite only. The biggest issue with this is that when an event is not open to a wide part of the public it likewise stops being scrutinised by the public. A good example is UGO where when they chose to ban most of what was left of the Abjured they took a viewer hit and had to justify it. When Jebro felt R55 needed banning he had to do it as part of a group that took a vote and it led to the unbanning of the aforementioned players. When Mist Challengers banned chrono they were asked to justify it and got completely roasted publicly by both Helseth and Frostball because the reason was horse manure while showing bias and I know I won't be watching another one if they continue to ban classes regardless of class. It is well known that NA in general has been biased against mesmers whenever they have not been free kills, you can still see this in the posts over the last few months over chrono (which you have been in) where people tried to pass mesmer off as being skilled but definitely top level even at a time when there was literally only 1 well known mesmer player in the competitive scene in both regions and was considered a free kill. > @"apharma.3741" said: > Likewise how many chronos are we seeing being played now by other teams? None, that’s ok because it’s a problem when chrono or mesmer is on every team but it’s not a problem when you see FB, scourge and either/or/both holo and spell breaker right? I’m not denying there’s problems with mirage (elusive mind, the sheer amount of confusion and torment, mirage thrust chase potential) however people are behaving like every other class isn’t very busted in areas too. > > The forums has their own agenda while being very biased and generally unhelpful, no wonder most top players avoid them. This is what I have been saying, as well that this is turning into mob mentality where people aren't sitting down and properly analysing the situation, comparing it to what is currently in the meta and likewise strong and properly evaluating the counterplay that exists or doesn't exist. A great example is how people are jumping on mesmer torch as being in need of nerfs where nerfing it will have no effect while also ignoring that both skills have 2-3s telegraphs and baseline will not do much more damage than auto attacks on zerker/marauder builds let alone other skills that have 30s CD's, while the mesmer as a class doesn't have that many sources of burning (staff auto and ambush) outside of torch. What is killing people is confusion and torment stacking where 1 mistake means you can't run away without taking large amounts of damage and you can't cleanse because any action hits you with 3k or more so you have this 2-3s limbo time where you know you're dead and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't even use the counter to conditions because you eat a ton of confusion damage. Edit: Also those people saying mirage is worse than PoF launch scourge are clearly either biased or repressing that time, scourge was so broken and easy to play it was stacked 4-5 in queues and double FB, double Scourge was making the game not fun to play or watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math.5123 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > As has been stated many times, the problem is the devs took a class that was already considered a top pick and then massively overbuffed its core mechanics without asking themselves the basic question "What do we want this classes weakness to be?" > > > > > > > > > > Because the fact is mes is the only class that as a whole has no real weakness. You can name a problem with every other class that is objectively true, while on the flip side asking a mesmer main who thinks their class is balanced to name a single mes weakness results in them naming something that the class is merely A-tier in. > > > > > > > > > > People are getting so used to being class carried that anything below S-tier means "weak". It's actually disgusting. > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a post to explain this very concept but you did it for me. > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" There are tournaments ran by guilds that no one ever even mentions in this forum or in reddit, due to private invite only. It's arguable whether you want to acknowledge these as "real tournaments" or not, but they comprise the large majority of tournament activity. Arenanet supported/Shout-casted tournaments are far and in between nowadays. > > > > > > > > Why private invite only? Because private tournament organizers get tired of seeing guild hosted events pump out thousands of gold to the same 5 guys who always win. Gotta keep it hush because they'll just show up on alts if they learn about it anyway. No offense to those people who always win, just it's nice for the majority of the community to be able to participate in B list tournaments. > > > > > > No I don’t acknowledge private tournaments that are never advertised, are not open to anyone and where it is likewise debatable if they even exist as evidence that any class is being banned in tournaments. Much less that a class is overpowered when these alleged tournaments are being carried out in secret because the people playing them are not good enough to beat the top 10 players in what I’m guessing NA as you’re NA much less top 10 EU. That’s without mentioning that these people certainly have their own agenda for balance if they are not likewise banning scourge and firebrand because those 2 classes make for an extremely boring game to view. > > > > Pay attention to players who aren't top 10 a bit more often. Go ahead and peddle back through some older pvp forum and wvw forum threads, it isn't too hard to see who the people are that are hosting these "conspiracy tournaments that never happen". In fact, there is a particular crew who is currently active in public organization, who's biggest debate right now in their discord is indeed "Should we ban Mirage?" If you can't figure out who they are in this pvp subforum, I'm not going to point it out for you. > > > > I can speak for myself when I say: "I have helped Fortune [Fame] organize and run 5x tournaments now, that had gold prizes of over 2000 each tournament. Four of those tournaments were public, One has been private invite only, the Sixth will also be private invite only, happening in the end of June, and most of these were streamed by known streamers. Top 10 players showed up for every single publicized tournament, and top players were consulted when organizing the rulesets. Mirage was banned in every single tournament except two. All of these tournaments were hosted within the past 6 to 8 months. That's a lot more activity and community cohesion than UGO or Mist Challenger doing it once or twice a year. I have wvw players who will invite me to similar guild-hosted events, who also ban Mirage because it is too difficul to kill in wide open areas to the point that it becomes unreasonable to ever actually kill the Mirage. Apparently Mirage is even more ridiculous with pve gear options and they generally are unkillable targets in wvw roam situations or guild hall arenas which are much larger areas than an spvp node. Conquest is different because it's about nodes, you don't have to kill the Mirage, but in wvw styled tournaments designed around deathmatch mechanics, Mirage is far far worse than it is in spvp. > > > > Mirage is over-powered. Everyone is discussing whether it should be banned or not, some have already long banned Mirage from their tournaments, and you really can't base your defense on this topic from Arenanet Partnered sources. I'm sure banning anything is the last thing they want to do, in the interests of good commercialization and representation. But I'm 100% positive, that Mirage is definitely on their plate of discussion. > > > > I get your underlined point that "Boyer was wrong in his exact statement that ALL tournaments are banning Mirage" Yup, I made a mistake in that statement. But on the contrary, you have only pointed out two tournaments within almost a year's timeframe, that didn't. > > > > Come on man, just about half of the posts in this pvp subforum are posts about "Mirage being OP". We haven't seen THIS much complaint since S1 busted Chronobunkers, Scourges on initial release, or maybe D/D Cele Eles. <- All of which in their times, were considered SS+ unreasonably powerful builds that should have been hotfixed on the spot, or removed from play until they were. > > > > Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there. > > The point was that you were making outrageous claims that no-one could back up, which you still don't back up because barely anyone knew of them and they have now started going invite only. The biggest issue with this is that when an event is not open to a wide part of the public it likewise stops being scrutinised by the public. A good example is UGO where when they chose to ban most of what was left of the Abjured they took a viewer hit and had to justify it. When Jebro felt R55 needed banning he had to do it as part of a group that took a vote and it led to the unbanning of the aforementioned players. When Mist Challengers banned chrono they were asked to justify it and got completely roasted publicly by both Helseth and Frostball because the reason was horse manure while showing bias and I know I won't be watching another one if they continue to ban classes regardless of class. It is well known that NA in general has been biased against mesmers whenever they have not been free kills, you can still see this in the posts over the last few months over chrono (which you have been in) where people tried to pass mesmer off as being skilled but definitely top level even at a time when there was literally only 1 well known mesmer player in the competitive scene in both regions and was considered a free kill. > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Likewise how many chronos are we seeing being played now by other teams? None, that’s ok because it’s a problem when chrono or mesmer is on every team but it’s not a problem when you see FB, scourge and either/or/both holo and spell breaker right? I’m not denying there’s problems with mirage (elusive mind, the sheer amount of confusion and torment, mirage thrust chase potential) however people are behaving like every other class isn’t very busted in areas too. > > > > The forums has their own agenda while being very biased and generally unhelpful, no wonder most top players avoid them. > > This is what I have been saying, as well that this is turning into mob mentality where people aren't sitting down and properly analysing the situation, comparing it to what is currently in the meta and likewise strong and properly evaluating the counterplay that exists or doesn't exist. A great example is how people are jumping on mesmer torch as being in need of nerfs where nerfing it will have no effect while also ignoring that both skills have 2-3s telegraphs and baseline will not do much more damage than auto attacks on zerker/marauder builds let alone other skills that have 30s CD's, while the mesmer as a class doesn't have that many sources of burning (staff auto and ambush) outside of torch. > > What is killing people is confusion and torment stacking where 1 mistake means you can't run away without taking large amounts of damage and you can't cleanse because any action hits you with 3k or more so you have this 2-3s limbo time where you know you're dead and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't even use the counter to conditions because you eat a ton of confusion damage. > > Edit: Also those people saying mirage is worse than PoF launch scourge are clearly either biased or repressing that time, scourge was so broken and easy to play it was stacked 4-5 in queues and double FB, double Scourge was making the game not fun to play or watch. Most people advocating for torch nerfs have their complaints more than justified at this point. *Every other classes burns got nerfed* yet, arguably the strongest condition spec out of the bunch got to keep their burst play style while ago the others were moved into a state of attrition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said: > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > > As has been stated many times, the problem is the devs took a class that was already considered a top pick and then massively overbuffed its core mechanics without asking themselves the basic question "What do we want this classes weakness to be?" > > > > > > > > > > > > Because the fact is mes is the only class that as a whole has no real weakness. You can name a problem with every other class that is objectively true, while on the flip side asking a mesmer main who thinks their class is balanced to name a single mes weakness results in them naming something that the class is merely A-tier in. > > > > > > > > > > > > People are getting so used to being class carried that anything below S-tier means "weak". It's actually disgusting. > > > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a post to explain this very concept but you did it for me. > > > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" There are tournaments ran by guilds that no one ever even mentions in this forum or in reddit, due to private invite only. It's arguable whether you want to acknowledge these as "real tournaments" or not, but they comprise the large majority of tournament activity. Arenanet supported/Shout-casted tournaments are far and in between nowadays. > > > > > > > > > > Why private invite only? Because private tournament organizers get tired of seeing guild hosted events pump out thousands of gold to the same 5 guys who always win. Gotta keep it hush because they'll just show up on alts if they learn about it anyway. No offense to those people who always win, just it's nice for the majority of the community to be able to participate in B list tournaments. > > > > > > > > No I don’t acknowledge private tournaments that are never advertised, are not open to anyone and where it is likewise debatable if they even exist as evidence that any class is being banned in tournaments. Much less that a class is overpowered when these alleged tournaments are being carried out in secret because the people playing them are not good enough to beat the top 10 players in what I’m guessing NA as you’re NA much less top 10 EU. That’s without mentioning that these people certainly have their own agenda for balance if they are not likewise banning scourge and firebrand because those 2 classes make for an extremely boring game to view. > > > > > > Pay attention to players who aren't top 10 a bit more often. Go ahead and peddle back through some older pvp forum and wvw forum threads, it isn't too hard to see who the people are that are hosting these "conspiracy tournaments that never happen". In fact, there is a particular crew who is currently active in public organization, who's biggest debate right now in their discord is indeed "Should we ban Mirage?" If you can't figure out who they are in this pvp subforum, I'm not going to point it out for you. > > > > > > I can speak for myself when I say: "I have helped Fortune [Fame] organize and run 5x tournaments now, that had gold prizes of over 2000 each tournament. Four of those tournaments were public, One has been private invite only, the Sixth will also be private invite only, happening in the end of June, and most of these were streamed by known streamers. Top 10 players showed up for every single publicized tournament, and top players were consulted when organizing the rulesets. Mirage was banned in every single tournament except two. All of these tournaments were hosted within the past 6 to 8 months. That's a lot more activity and community cohesion than UGO or Mist Challenger doing it once or twice a year. I have wvw players who will invite me to similar guild-hosted events, who also ban Mirage because it is too difficul to kill in wide open areas to the point that it becomes unreasonable to ever actually kill the Mirage. Apparently Mirage is even more ridiculous with pve gear options and they generally are unkillable targets in wvw roam situations or guild hall arenas which are much larger areas than an spvp node. Conquest is different because it's about nodes, you don't have to kill the Mirage, but in wvw styled tournaments designed around deathmatch mechanics, Mirage is far far worse than it is in spvp. > > > > > > Mirage is over-powered. Everyone is discussing whether it should be banned or not, some have already long banned Mirage from their tournaments, and you really can't base your defense on this topic from Arenanet Partnered sources. I'm sure banning anything is the last thing they want to do, in the interests of good commercialization and representation. But I'm 100% positive, that Mirage is definitely on their plate of discussion. > > > > > > I get your underlined point that "Boyer was wrong in his exact statement that ALL tournaments are banning Mirage" Yup, I made a mistake in that statement. But on the contrary, you have only pointed out two tournaments within almost a year's timeframe, that didn't. > > > > > > Come on man, just about half of the posts in this pvp subforum are posts about "Mirage being OP". We haven't seen THIS much complaint since S1 busted Chronobunkers, Scourges on initial release, or maybe D/D Cele Eles. <- All of which in their times, were considered SS+ unreasonably powerful builds that should have been hotfixed on the spot, or removed from play until they were. > > > > > > > Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there. > > > > The point was that you were making outrageous claims that no-one could back up, which you still don't back up because barely anyone knew of them and they have now started going invite only. The biggest issue with this is that when an event is not open to a wide part of the public it likewise stops being scrutinised by the public. A good example is UGO where when they chose to ban most of what was left of the Abjured they took a viewer hit and had to justify it. When Jebro felt R55 needed banning he had to do it as part of a group that took a vote and it led to the unbanning of the aforementioned players. When Mist Challengers banned chrono they were asked to justify it and got completely roasted publicly by both Helseth and Frostball because the reason was horse manure while showing bias and I know I won't be watching another one if they continue to ban classes regardless of class. It is well known that NA in general has been biased against mesmers whenever they have not been free kills, you can still see this in the posts over the last few months over chrono (which you have been in) where people tried to pass mesmer off as being skilled but definitely top level even at a time when there was literally only 1 well known mesmer player in the competitive scene in both regions and was considered a free kill. > > > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > Likewise how many chronos are we seeing being played now by other teams? None, that’s ok because it’s a problem when chrono or mesmer is on every team but it’s not a problem when you see FB, scourge and either/or/both holo and spell breaker right? I’m not denying there’s problems with mirage (elusive mind, the sheer amount of confusion and torment, mirage thrust chase potential) however people are behaving like every other class isn’t very busted in areas too. > > > > > > The forums has their own agenda while being very biased and generally unhelpful, no wonder most top players avoid them. > > > > This is what I have been saying, as well that this is turning into mob mentality where people aren't sitting down and properly analysing the situation, comparing it to what is currently in the meta and likewise strong and properly evaluating the counterplay that exists or doesn't exist. A great example is how people are jumping on mesmer torch as being in need of nerfs where nerfing it will have no effect while also ignoring that both skills have 2-3s telegraphs and baseline will not do much more damage than auto attacks on zerker/marauder builds let alone other skills that have 30s CD's, while the mesmer as a class doesn't have that many sources of burning (staff auto and ambush) outside of torch. > > > > What is killing people is confusion and torment stacking where 1 mistake means you can't run away without taking large amounts of damage and you can't cleanse because any action hits you with 3k or more so you have this 2-3s limbo time where you know you're dead and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't even use the counter to conditions because you eat a ton of confusion damage. > > > > Edit: Also those people saying mirage is worse than PoF launch scourge are clearly either biased or repressing that time, scourge was so broken and easy to play it was stacked 4-5 in queues and double FB, double Scourge was making the game not fun to play or watch. > > Most people advocating for torch nerfs have their complaints more than justified at this point. *Every other classes burns got nerfed* yet, arguably the strongest condition spec out of the bunch got to keep their burst play style while ago the others were moved into a state of attrition. > Yeah and I can see that viewpoint however those classes that saw the stack changes also have more sources of burning on a lot shorter cool down so can combo to get the same number of stacks or higher much more frequently which was the problem in the first place. Likewise as I say changing the torch burning baseline won't change anything about the mirage's current strength short of removing burn entirely so it's no longer a cover condition. I'd be all for changing the torch trait so it no longer gives extra burning and is just a cool down reduction as I feel a lot of traits need to go back to a much more simple 1 effect state. Here's a list of what skills have burning on them, you'll notice mesmer is behind thief and revenant in burn access only. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Burning The torch isn't the problem that needs fixing, the torment and confusion on the same spec and being stacked/bursted while elusive mind removes all punishment for messing up is far more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 @"apharma.3741" Hold on there cowboy, the only reason I am not mentioning players and guilds by name is because I have long been involved in carrying banners of many forms in this forum, and drawing players by name/guild into these protests/arguments, which in retrospect is a rude thing to do. Lately I've been going out of my way to speak only for myself and to drop general points given, as to avoid bringing players into some otherwise toxic controversy that they'd rather avoid. Most people in NA already know who I am talking about anyway. Again, if you can't identify through this forum, who is the only active guild that currently organizes inhouses & scrims, I'm not going to explain it to you. I suggest you get reacquainted with what is going on within the community, and their points of views, if you want to drive such hard arguments. Should also point out this sense of security encouraged by your posts, in the idea that UGO/Mist Challenger organizers & streamers are far more qualified in understanding balance than the other 99% of the community. A well known shout-caster, streamer, or even an old actual professional player, may have reached a pinnacle of focal point through on camera charisma, business well done, or ability to win matches, but in what way does this speak for their judgement on actual game balance or even their motives for suggestion on balance or calls to ban or allow something in a tournament? Upon that, the truth is that the large majority of these guys have left GW2 long ago to cover new games man. They don't even play regularly anymore. In other words, the people whom you seem to be pointing at, saying their opinions don't count, are the people who are still grinding 20 matches a day, who are well acquainted with the current state of balance. Yeah, if I were an Arenanet partner, I wouldn't ban anything from my tournaments unless it were 100% necessary. But while running community organized tournaments where we aren't representing that focal point like that, we just omit anything that the player base pretty much unanimously agrees is creating too many problems and damping the potential fun of the tournament. But yeah, this thread was about "Please Gut Mesmer Some More", so this will be my last response to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"UfoCoffee.2084" said: > Mesmer's defense was meant to be fooling the opponent with clones. But they have access to Tons of evades, sword 2 and f4, torch or signet stealth, blinds etc if all this fails whilst safely applying condis with your pets then blink, jaunt or even portal away. Wait a bit come back and condi bomb again. > Name the tons of evades. I've been seeing this and no one has been able to tell me what new evades Mesmer all of a sudden got outside of the traited distortion ( and that's a 42second CD with situational variables) or Axe ( which imo is inferior to the evasion already offered by sword) If it's the trait that makes Mesmer have to much evasion, an easy fix for that would be to move or rework the trait. Boom fixed, You can vote me for Anet Dev in November > It's just a pink mess when they attack and it happen in the space of a second from stealth. No time to react and you're covered in condi. This is a problem with condies. In general EVERY class should have Condi application be **limited** in a specific time frame. **Burst condies should never be a thing for any class** and until that is addressed nothing will ever change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"apharma.3741" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Master Ketsu.4569" said: > > > > > As has been stated many times, the problem is the devs took a class that was already considered a top pick and then massively overbuffed its core mechanics without asking themselves the basic question "What do we want this classes weakness to be?" > > > > > > > > > > Because the fact is mes is the only class that as a whole has no real weakness. You can name a problem with every other class that is objectively true, while on the flip side asking a mesmer main who thinks their class is balanced to name a single mes weakness results in them naming something that the class is merely A-tier in. > > > > > > > > > > People are getting so used to being class carried that anything below S-tier means "weak". It's actually disgusting. > > > > > > > > I was trying to make a post to explain this very concept but you did it for me. > > > > > > > > @"apharma.3741" There are tournaments ran by guilds that no one ever even mentions in this forum or in reddit, due to private invite only. It's arguable whether you want to acknowledge these as "real tournaments" or not, but they comprise the large majority of tournament activity. Arenanet supported/Shout-casted tournaments are far and in between nowadays. > > > > > > > > Why private invite only? Because private tournament organizers get tired of seeing guild hosted events pump out thousands of gold to the same 5 guys who always win. Gotta keep it hush because they'll just show up on alts if they learn about it anyway. No offense to those people who always win, just it's nice for the majority of the community to be able to participate in B list tournaments. > > > > > > No I don’t acknowledge private tournaments that are never advertised, are not open to anyone and where it is likewise debatable if they even exist as evidence that any class is being banned in tournaments. Much less that a class is overpowered when these alleged tournaments are being carried out in secret because the people playing them are not good enough to beat the top 10 players in what I’m guessing NA as you’re NA much less top 10 EU. That’s without mentioning that these people certainly have their own agenda for balance if they are not likewise banning scourge and firebrand because those 2 classes make for an extremely boring game to view. > > > > Pay attention to players who aren't top 10 a bit more often. Go ahead and peddle back through some older pvp forum and wvw forum threads, it isn't too hard to see who the people are that are hosting these "conspiracy tournaments that never happen". In fact, there is a particular crew who is currently active in public organization, who's biggest debate right now in their discord is indeed "Should we ban Mirage?" If you can't figure out who they are in this pvp subforum, I'm not going to point it out for you. > > > > I can speak for myself when I say: "I have helped Fortune [Fame] organize and run 5x tournaments now, that had gold prizes of over 2000 each tournament. Four of those tournaments were public, One has been private invite only, the Sixth will also be private invite only, happening in the end of June, and most of these were streamed by known streamers. Top 10 players showed up for every single publicized tournament, and top players were consulted when organizing the rulesets. Mirage was banned in every single tournament except two. All of these tournaments were hosted within the past 6 to 8 months. That's a lot more activity and community cohesion than UGO or Mist Challenger doing it once or twice a year. I have wvw players who will invite me to similar guild-hosted events, who also ban Mirage because it is too difficul to kill in wide open areas to the point that it becomes unreasonable to ever actually kill the Mirage. Apparently Mirage is even more ridiculous with pve gear options and they generally are unkillable targets in wvw roam situations or guild hall arenas which are much larger areas than an spvp node. Conquest is different because it's about nodes, you don't have to kill the Mirage, but in wvw styled tournaments designed around deathmatch mechanics, Mirage is far far worse than it is in spvp. > > > > Mirage is over-powered. Everyone is discussing whether it should be banned or not, some have already long banned Mirage from their tournaments, and you really can't base your defense on this topic from Arenanet Partnered sources. I'm sure banning anything is the last thing they want to do, in the interests of good commercialization and representation. But I'm 100% positive, that Mirage is definitely on their plate of discussion. > > > > I get your underlined point that "Boyer was wrong in his exact statement that ALL tournaments are banning Mirage" Yup, I made a mistake in that statement. But on the contrary, you have only pointed out two tournaments within almost a year's timeframe, that didn't. > > > > Come on man, just about half of the posts in this pvp subforum are posts about "Mirage being OP". We haven't seen THIS much complaint since S1 busted Chronobunkers, Scourges on initial release, or maybe D/D Cele Eles. <- All of which in their times, were considered SS+ unreasonably powerful builds that should have been hotfixed on the spot, or removed from play until they were. > > > > Why would I want to pay attention to players who aren't top 10 in NA, a region I can't play with and which plays at times I'm either in bed or at work or players that have not made a name for themselves? That's without pointing out the poor reasoning that the top 10 is indicative of a players skill anymore, I mean you don't see any WTS, World Championship or any big competition winners there. > > The point was that you were making outrageous claims that no-one could back up, which you still don't back up because barely anyone knew of them and they have now started going invite only. The biggest issue with this is that when an event is not open to a wide part of the public it likewise stops being scrutinised by the public. A good example is UGO where when they chose to ban most of what was left of the Abjured they took a viewer hit and had to justify it. When Jebro felt R55 needed banning he had to do it as part of a group that took a vote and it led to the unbanning of the aforementioned players. When Mist Challengers banned chrono they were asked to justify it and got completely roasted publicly by both Helseth and Frostball because the reason was horse manure while showing bias and I know I won't be watching another one if they continue to ban classes regardless of class. It is well known that NA in general has been biased against mesmers whenever they have not been free kills, you can still see this in the posts over the last few months over chrono (which you have been in) where people tried to pass mesmer off as being skilled but definitely top level even at a time when there was literally only 1 well known mesmer player in the competitive scene in both regions and was considered a free kill. > > > @"apharma.3741" said: > > Likewise how many chronos are we seeing being played now by other teams? None, that’s ok because it’s a problem when chrono or mesmer is on every team but it’s not a problem when you see FB, scourge and either/or/both holo and spell breaker right? I’m not denying there’s problems with mirage (elusive mind, the sheer amount of confusion and torment, mirage thrust chase potential) however people are behaving like every other class isn’t very busted in areas too. > > > > The forums has their own agenda while being very biased and generally unhelpful, no wonder most top players avoid them. > > This is what I have been saying, as well that this is turning into mob mentality where people aren't sitting down and properly analysing the situation, comparing it to what is currently in the meta and likewise strong and properly evaluating the counterplay that exists or doesn't exist. A great example is how people are jumping on mesmer torch as being in need of nerfs where nerfing it will have no effect while also ignoring that both skills have 2-3s telegraphs and baseline will not do much more damage than auto attacks on zerker/marauder builds let alone other skills that have 30s CD's, while the mesmer as a class doesn't have that many sources of burning (staff auto and ambush) outside of torch. > > What is killing people is confusion and torment stacking where 1 mistake means you can't run away without taking large amounts of damage and you can't cleanse because any action hits you with 3k or more so you have this 2-3s limbo time where you know you're dead and there's nothing you can do about it. You can't even use the counter to conditions because you eat a ton of confusion damage. > > Edit: Also those people saying mirage is worse than PoF launch scourge are clearly either biased or repressing that time, scourge was so broken and easy to play it was stacked 4-5 in queues and double FB, double Scourge was making the game not fun to play or watch. This truth is too much. You know it'll get ignored Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 Did you seriously just defend the banning of Chronomancer? And then follow it up with "This truth is too much"? Well then, I see where you stand on the subject. No reason to further any debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apharma.3741 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > @"apharma.3741" Hold on there cowboy, the only reason I am not mentioning players and guilds by name is because I have long been involved in carrying banners of many forms in this forum, and drawing players by name/guild into these protests/arguments, which in retrospect is a rude thing to do. Lately I've been going out of my way to speak only for myself and to drop general points given, as to avoid bringing players into some otherwise toxic controversy that they'd rather avoid. > > Most people in NA already know who I am talking about anyway. Again, if you can't identify through this forum, who is the only active guild that currently organizes inhouses & scrims, I'm not going to explain it to you. I suggest you get reacquainted with what is going on within the community, and their points of views, if you want to drive such hard arguments. > > Should also point out this sense of security encouraged by your posts, in the idea that UGO/Mist Challenger organizers & streamers are far more qualified in understanding balance than the other 99% of the community. A well known shout-caster, streamer, or even an old actual professional player, may have reached a pinnacle of focal point through on camera charisma, business well done, or ability to win matches, but in what way does this speak for their judgement on actual game balance or even their motives for suggestion on balance or calls to ban or allow something in a tournament? Upon that, the truth is that the large majority of these guys have left GW2 long ago to cover new games man. They don't even play regularly anymore. In other words, the people whom you seem to be pointing at, saying their opinions don't count, are the people who are still grinding 20 matches a day, who are well acquainted with the current state of balance. Yeah, if I were an Arenanet partner, I wouldn't ban anything from my tournaments unless it were 100% necessary. But while running community organized tournaments where we aren't representing that focal point like that, we just omit anything that the player base pretty much unanimously agrees is creating too many problems and damping the potential fun of the tournament. > > But yeah, this thread was about "Please Gut Mesmer Some More", so this will be my last response to you. > You should have left it without the edit tbh. Feel free to point out that but the UGO wants fair, unbiased and interesting tournaments, they have a reputation and public scrutiny to keep up while your backroom tournaments do not, I'm getting deja vu. So yes I put more stock into them being more fair and impartial because there is real consequences when they are biased and not impartial. Likewise I put more stock into the Mist Challengers as if they make a habit of banning classes for the wrong reasons (I don't honestly think banning chrono was bad but the reason for it was) will end up adversely affecting future tournaments. The title of the thread accurately sums up what I've been say and the state of these forums. As a whole this community no longer looks at builds, skills, traits objectively both within the build, other builds and meta to come up with a reasoned argument and proposals and instead has devolved into a mob mentality who's only aim is to see something completely removed from play no matter how unwarranted the nerfs are, while also not actually fixing the main issue like the chrono nerfs. Edit: Here's a good link to watch at least for the first 10-20 mins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > Did you seriously just defend the banning of Chronomancer? And then follow it up with "This truth is too much"? > > Well then, I see where you stand on the subject. No reason to further any debate. So I'm looking around and I can't seem to find this defense you're talking about. Or were you talking about pharma? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"mortrialus.3062" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Kraitan.8476" said: > > > > Title is pretty self explanatory. Think everyone except the mesmer mains can agree. It’s overplayed, WAY too forgiving making it an extremely easy class to do well on and still applies conditions like its a power burst. > > > > > > Mirage is currently being banned entirely in any/all tournaments being held. It's the first specialization as a whole, that is so overpowered, that organizers must omit it completely from any competitive play. > > > > > > Not much more needs to be said other than that. > > > > > > > Chrono was getting banned before Mirage. So your post isn't entirely accurate. > > Chrono builds went through very very short phases of dotted bans from tournament, like in S1 when mantras had bugged CDs for awhile there, but for the most part, Chrono has spent high uptime being allowed in tournament. Mirage has literally been omitted from all tournament play since PoF arrived, and despite multiple patches since, it is still no where even near a state of balance. > > And this is just talking about spvp. If you want to start talking about WvW, not only is the Mirage the dominant Roamer, but it also the one character that when about 3 or 4 are present, are capable of instantly teleporting Siege Golems across a map to another server's gates, pulling an enormous zerg behind them. I mean... come on... M Hate to be the one to tell ya, but golem porting has been around for years. I used to run training on it while I was in CD like 4ish years ago (that and proper portal bombing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"witcher.3197" said: > > @"phokus.8934" said: > > > @"Xanctus The Dragonslayer.2318" said: > > > Yeah I have no kitten sympathy for mesmer players. Not advocating for an outright kitten gutting of the class. But kitten these stories about illulsionary rogue were kitten true. I just got out of unranked and took an kitten 11.5 illusionary rogue. I mean what the kitten man? Seriously, no downed skill should ever hit that hard ever. that's burst levels of damage. When you're downed, u are kitten downed. and fight for your survival u shouldn't have access that much kitten damage. > > > > Lol and there it is, a complaint about Mesmer down state. People have lost their minds. > > He's not even wrong. Anet nerfed the damage on all of phantasms in the chrono build, except for the downstate. Now downstate is the most dangerous part of chrono, it can oneshot people who are below 50%. Thats not the definition of "1 shot" and it will only drop you from 50% if you are running full zerk (which as a glass cannon thats your fault). Mesmer down is not nearly as bad as others (necro for starters, and ranger pet res). I feel like people are scratching at the bottom of the barrel for things to complain about . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Kraitan.8476" said: > Im not even reading that kitten m8, hf defending your precious class. Personally I can't wait for the moment cheesy/easy builds like that die. Hey Guys, Think I found the person who rages in chat and whispers those that play "cheese builds", then blocks them before they respond. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huskyboy.1053 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 @"apharma.3741" 1. Thought we were talking about Mirages not Chrono? 2. I can count the amount of people in this forum who attempt to defend Mirage on one hand. The rest of the community agrees that it is over-powered, and they have also narrowed down and agree on extremely specific aspects of the specialization that needs reworking. I wouldn't call that "bias", I'd call it an overwhelming and nearly unanimous agreeance. 3. Quote Apharma: _"As a whole this community no longer looks at builds, skills, traits objectively both within the build, other builds and meta to come up with a reasoned argument and proposals and instead has devolved into a mob mentality who's only aim is to see something completely removed from play no matter how unwarranted the nerfs are, while also not actually fixing the main issue like the chrono nerfs."_ I actually lol'd at this. There are multiple topics going on this forum right now, that accurately and in much detail, highlight the exact key aspects that attribute to Mirage being SS+ in a meta where other classes are A+ at best. Plenty of detailed explanations, based from combat-wise, utility-wise, team-comp wise, rock/paper/scissors-wise, rotation-wise, raw-mathematics, mechanically, you name it. In fact, I'm not sure I've seen an over-powered discussion covered so thoroughly in the past. Perhaps you have not taken the time to read them or take them seriously in your stark Mesmer defense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > @"apharma.3741" > In fact, I'm not sure I've seen an over-powered discussion covered so thoroughly in the past. Perhaps you have not taken the time to read them or take them seriously in your stark Mesmer defense. Pretty sure there are lots about warrior (SB) and Necro (Scourge)...but you are tunnel visioned on Mirage so what do I know....Just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevor Boyer.6524 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Huskyboy.1053" said: > @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? Thanks @"Huskyboy.1053" Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. I honestly think that the game is in a great state of balance, outside of Mirage. When I play games in unranked/ranked/ATs where there is no presence of Mirage, or even when I 1v1 lately, the game is.... surprisingly balanced right now. Yes I'm saying it, it really is. Many people would bring up Renegade, but Herald seems to be doing fine lately. So looking at it in terms of: War/Guard/Rev/Thief/Rang/Engi/Necro/Ele/Mes, Every class has something viable to play, that is pretty damn well balanced. Again, outside of Mirage. Buff wise? hrm…. Well considering all game modes into "how good a class or specialization is", we are looking at this: * Warrior is near viable in all modes - Berserker is good in pve - Spellbreaker is strong in spvp/wvw * Guardian is near viable in all modes - DH is strong in pve - FB is strong in spvp but is godly in wvw * Revenant not viable without Herald - Renegade is good in pve - Herald is good or debatably strong in spvp but you don't see them often in wvw * Engineer is near viable in pve but not competitively - Holo is strong in pve and spvp, but only good in wvw - Scrapper has fallen out of all modes * Ranger is near viable in all modes - Druid is nearly godly in pve but no longer competitive - Soulbeast is good in pve DPS and is now debatably strong in spvp/wvw * Thief is strong in spvp - Daredevil is good in pve and good or debatably strong in spvp/wvw - Deadeye is almost viable in spvp but strong in wvw * Necro nearly viable in all modes - Reaper eeeeh good in pve, good or strong in spvp, good in wvw - Scourge is good in pve, strong in spvp, godly in wvw * Ele is near viability in pve but not other modes - Tempest is undervalued support in all modes - Weaver is godly pve dps but only good competitively * Mesmer is viable if not good, in all modes - Chrono is godly in pve, good in spvp, strong in wvw - Mirage is good or strong in pve, strong+ in spvp, strong+ in wvw roaming Considering the above, the only 3 classes that need buffing are in my opinion: Renegade, Scrapper, and Core Ele. Secondary "indirect buffs" would go to: Berserker by revoking it's nerfs to Smash Brawler and Animations, Splitting the recent Druid CA nerf so that the heal reductions only effect pve, Revert the patch that created Vital Persistence on the Necromancer and nerfed it's Shroud. That's pretty much everything that I would do if it were up to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > @"Huskyboy.1053" said: > > @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? > > Thanks @"Huskyboy.1053" > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > > I honestly think that the game is in a great state of balance, outside of Mirage. When I play games in unranked/ranked/ATs where there is no presence of Mirage, or even when I 1v1 lately, the game is.... surprisingly balanced right now. Yes I'm saying it, it really is. Many people would bring up Renegade, but Herald seems to be doing fine lately. So looking at it in terms of: War/Guard/Rev/Thief/Rang/Engi/Necro/Ele/Mes, Every class has something viable to play, that is pretty kitten well balanced. Again, outside of Mirage. > > Buff wise? hrm…. Well considering all game modes into "how good a class or specialization is", we are looking at this: > * Warrior is near viable in all modes - Berserker is good in pve - Spellbreaker is strong in spvp/wvw > * Guardian is near viable in all modes - DH is strong in pve - FB is strong in spvp but is godly in wvw > * Revenant not viable without Herald - Renegade is good in pve - Herald is good or debatably strong in spvp but you don't see them often in wvw > * Engineer is near viable in pve but not competitively - Holo is strong in pve and spvp, but only good in wvw - Scrapper has fallen out of all modes > * Ranger is near viable in all modes - Druid is nearly godly in pve but no longer competitive - Soulbeast is good in pve DPS and is now debatably strong in spvp/wvw > * Thief is strong in spvp - Daredevil is good in pve and good or debatably strong in spvp/wvw - Deadeye is almost viable in spvp but strong in wvw > * Necro nearly viable in all modes - Reaper eeeeh good in pve, good or strong in spvp, good in wvw - Scourge is good in pve, strong in spvp, godly in wvw > * Ele is near viability in pve but not other modes - Tempest is undervalued support in all modes - Weaver is godly pve dps but only good competitively > * Mesmer is viable if not good, in all modes - Chrono is godly in pve, good in spvp, strong in wvw - Mirage is good or strong in pve, strong+ in spvp, strong+ in wvw roaming > > Considering the above, the only 3 classes that need buffing are in my opinion: Renegade, Scrapper, and Core Ele. Secondary "indirect buffs" would go to: Berserker by revoking it's nerfs to Smash Brawler and Animations, Splitting the recent Druid CA nerf so that the heal reductions only effect pve, Revert the patch that created Vital Persistence on the Necromancer and nerfed it's Shroud. > > That's pretty much everything that I would do if it were up to me. > > Aside from Torch 5 needing fixed, I agree with everything. Torch 5 has a wicked warm up and the clone/damage can easily be walked away from if you are paying attention. I run it in my DPS build and really use it to open a fight as a scare tactic and on a downed to stop them from ressing themselves. Half the time the opener is avoided by running when the clone stops or they face tank the small burn damage I do. On a condi build its def a lot deadlier, however its avoided the same way. *Edited for spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solori.6025 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > @"Huskyboy.1053" said: > > > @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? > > > > Thanks @"Huskyboy.1053" > > > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > > > > I honestly think that the game is in a great state of balance, outside of Mirage. When I play games in unranked/ranked/ATs where there is no presence of Mirage, or even when I 1v1 lately, the game is.... surprisingly balanced right now. Yes I'm saying it, it really is. Many people would bring up Renegade, but Herald seems to be doing fine lately. So looking at it in terms of: War/Guard/Rev/Thief/Rang/Engi/Necro/Ele/Mes, Every class has something viable to play, that is pretty kitten well balanced. Again, outside of Mirage. > > > > Buff wise? hrm…. Well considering all game modes into "how good a class or specialization is", we are looking at this: > > * Warrior is near viable in all modes - Berserker is good in pve - Spellbreaker is strong in spvp/wvw > > * Guardian is near viable in all modes - DH is strong in pve - FB is strong in spvp but is godly in wvw > > * Revenant not viable without Herald - Renegade is good in pve - Herald is good or debatably strong in spvp but you don't see them often in wvw > > * Engineer is near viable in pve but not competitively - Holo is strong in pve and spvp, but only good in wvw - Scrapper has fallen out of all modes > > * Ranger is near viable in all modes - Druid is nearly godly in pve but no longer competitive - Soulbeast is good in pve DPS and is now debatably strong in spvp/wvw > > * Thief is strong in spvp - Daredevil is good in pve and good or debatably strong in spvp/wvw - Deadeye is almost viable in spvp but strong in wvw > > * Necro nearly viable in all modes - Reaper eeeeh good in pve, good or strong in spvp, good in wvw - Scourge is good in pve, strong in spvp, godly in wvw > > * Ele is near viability in pve but not other modes - Tempest is undervalued support in all modes - Weaver is godly pve dps but only good competitively > > * Mesmer is viable if not good, in all modes - Chrono is godly in pve, good in spvp, strong in wvw - Mirage is good or strong in pve, strong+ in spvp, strong+ in wvw roaming > > > > Considering the above, the only 3 classes that need buffing are in my opinion: Renegade, Scrapper, and Core Ele. Secondary "indirect buffs" would go to: Berserker by revoking it's nerfs to Smash Brawler and Animations, Splitting the recent Druid CA nerf so that the heal reductions only effect pve, Revert the patch that created Vital Persistence on the Necromancer and nerfed it's Shroud. > > > > That's pretty much everything that I would do if it were up to me. > > > > > > Aside from Torch 5 needing fixed, I agree with everything. Torch 5 has a wicked warm up and the clone/damage can easily be walked away from if you are paying attention. I run it in my DPS build and really use it to open a fight as a scare tactic and on a downed to stop them from ressign themselves. Half the time the opener is avoided by running when the clone stops or they face tank the small burn damage I do. > > On a condi build its def a lot deadlier, however its avoided the same way. I think everyone agrees that EM should just not exist. I'm can half understand the torch issue, but you could literally walk away from it because the phantasm doesn't attack immediately unlike the other phantams. That trait for torch shouldn't add more burning and I would much rather it did what it used to and just cleanse conditions with the additional recharge. @"Trevor Boyer.6524" I haven't seen threads started ( recently) with good informed and unbiased changes on these forums. A lot of what I and others have seen has been hyperbole,lies, exaggerating claims, and emotional responses. Especially in the competitive sub forums. I would love to see the threads you have found in the Pvp and/or wvw section that started with well thought out and reasonable OP. That explains in accurate detail mechanics, raw and accurate mathematics with reasonable solutions to fix mirage issues outside of what the Mesmer community ( like EM) has already stated. Because I think you are making those threads up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigpapasmurf.5623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Solori.6025" said: > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > @"Huskyboy.1053" said: > > > > @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? > > > > > > Thanks @"Huskyboy.1053" > > > > > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > > > > > > I honestly think that the game is in a great state of balance, outside of Mirage. When I play games in unranked/ranked/ATs where there is no presence of Mirage, or even when I 1v1 lately, the game is.... surprisingly balanced right now. Yes I'm saying it, it really is. Many people would bring up Renegade, but Herald seems to be doing fine lately. So looking at it in terms of: War/Guard/Rev/Thief/Rang/Engi/Necro/Ele/Mes, Every class has something viable to play, that is pretty kitten well balanced. Again, outside of Mirage. > > > > > > Buff wise? hrm…. Well considering all game modes into "how good a class or specialization is", we are looking at this: > > > * Warrior is near viable in all modes - Berserker is good in pve - Spellbreaker is strong in spvp/wvw > > > * Guardian is near viable in all modes - DH is strong in pve - FB is strong in spvp but is godly in wvw > > > * Revenant not viable without Herald - Renegade is good in pve - Herald is good or debatably strong in spvp but you don't see them often in wvw > > > * Engineer is near viable in pve but not competitively - Holo is strong in pve and spvp, but only good in wvw - Scrapper has fallen out of all modes > > > * Ranger is near viable in all modes - Druid is nearly godly in pve but no longer competitive - Soulbeast is good in pve DPS and is now debatably strong in spvp/wvw > > > * Thief is strong in spvp - Daredevil is good in pve and good or debatably strong in spvp/wvw - Deadeye is almost viable in spvp but strong in wvw > > > * Necro nearly viable in all modes - Reaper eeeeh good in pve, good or strong in spvp, good in wvw - Scourge is good in pve, strong in spvp, godly in wvw > > > * Ele is near viability in pve but not other modes - Tempest is undervalued support in all modes - Weaver is godly pve dps but only good competitively > > > * Mesmer is viable if not good, in all modes - Chrono is godly in pve, good in spvp, strong in wvw - Mirage is good or strong in pve, strong+ in spvp, strong+ in wvw roaming > > > > > > Considering the above, the only 3 classes that need buffing are in my opinion: Renegade, Scrapper, and Core Ele. Secondary "indirect buffs" would go to: Berserker by revoking it's nerfs to Smash Brawler and Animations, Splitting the recent Druid CA nerf so that the heal reductions only effect pve, Revert the patch that created Vital Persistence on the Necromancer and nerfed it's Shroud. > > > > > > That's pretty much everything that I would do if it were up to me. > > > > > > > > > > Aside from Torch 5 needing fixed, I agree with everything. Torch 5 has a wicked warm up and the clone/damage can easily be walked away from if you are paying attention. I run it in my DPS build and really use it to open a fight as a scare tactic and on a downed to stop them from ressign themselves. Half the time the opener is avoided by running when the clone stops or they face tank the small burn damage I do. > > > > On a condi build its def a lot deadlier, however its avoided the same way. > > I think everyone agrees that EM should just not exist. I'm can half understand the torch issue, but you could literally walk away from it because the phantasm doesn't attack immediately unlike the other phantams. > > That trait for torch shouldn't add more burning and I would much rather it did what it used to and just cleanse conditions with the additional recharge. > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" I haven't seen threads started ( recently) with good informed and unbiased changes on these forums. A lot of what I and others have seen has been hyperbole,lies, exaggerating claims, and emotional responses. Especially in the competitive sub forums. I would love to see the threads you have found in the Pvp and/or wvw section that started with well thought out and reasonable OP. That explains in accurate detail mechanics, raw and accurate mathematics with reasonable solutions to fix mirage issues outside of what the Mesmer community ( like EM) has already stated. > Because I think you are making those threads up. I couldnt care less about EM personally. I dont run it and tried it for a couple weeks, however didnt care for it. I also agree about the torch trait. Less burn but more cleanse. even if the base burn went down and it cleared another condi I would be ok with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EpicTurtle.8571 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > @"Solori.6025" said: > > > @"Bigpapasmurf.5623" said: > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" said: > > > > > @"Huskyboy.1053" said: > > > > > @"apharma.3741" @"Trevor Boyer.6524" Okay so that was a lot of fun to read. Since there's some agreement between you both that Mirage is overtuned, what would be your top 3 nerfs, and what would you buff, if anything? > > > > > > > > Thanks @"Huskyboy.1053" > > > > > > > > Honestly, Mirage just needs a rework to Elusive Mind and Torch 5 = fixed. Elusive Mind is still too anti-burst. > > > > > > > > I honestly think that the game is in a great state of balance, outside of Mirage. When I play games in unranked/ranked/ATs where there is no presence of Mirage, or even when I 1v1 lately, the game is.... surprisingly balanced right now. Yes I'm saying it, it really is. Many people would bring up Renegade, but Herald seems to be doing fine lately. So looking at it in terms of: War/Guard/Rev/Thief/Rang/Engi/Necro/Ele/Mes, Every class has something viable to play, that is pretty kitten well balanced. Again, outside of Mirage. > > > > > > > > Buff wise? hrm…. Well considering all game modes into "how good a class or specialization is", we are looking at this: > > > > * Warrior is near viable in all modes - Berserker is good in pve - Spellbreaker is strong in spvp/wvw > > > > * Guardian is near viable in all modes - DH is strong in pve - FB is strong in spvp but is godly in wvw > > > > * Revenant not viable without Herald - Renegade is good in pve - Herald is good or debatably strong in spvp but you don't see them often in wvw > > > > * Engineer is near viable in pve but not competitively - Holo is strong in pve and spvp, but only good in wvw - Scrapper has fallen out of all modes > > > > * Ranger is near viable in all modes - Druid is nearly godly in pve but no longer competitive - Soulbeast is good in pve DPS and is now debatably strong in spvp/wvw > > > > * Thief is strong in spvp - Daredevil is good in pve and good or debatably strong in spvp/wvw - Deadeye is almost viable in spvp but strong in wvw > > > > * Necro nearly viable in all modes - Reaper eeeeh good in pve, good or strong in spvp, good in wvw - Scourge is good in pve, strong in spvp, godly in wvw > > > > * Ele is near viability in pve but not other modes - Tempest is undervalued support in all modes - Weaver is godly pve dps but only good competitively > > > > * Mesmer is viable if not good, in all modes - Chrono is godly in pve, good in spvp, strong in wvw - Mirage is good or strong in pve, strong+ in spvp, strong+ in wvw roaming > > > > > > > > Considering the above, the only 3 classes that need buffing are in my opinion: Renegade, Scrapper, and Core Ele. Secondary "indirect buffs" would go to: Berserker by revoking it's nerfs to Smash Brawler and Animations, Splitting the recent Druid CA nerf so that the heal reductions only effect pve, Revert the patch that created Vital Persistence on the Necromancer and nerfed it's Shroud. > > > > > > > > That's pretty much everything that I would do if it were up to me. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Aside from Torch 5 needing fixed, I agree with everything. Torch 5 has a wicked warm up and the clone/damage can easily be walked away from if you are paying attention. I run it in my DPS build and really use it to open a fight as a scare tactic and on a downed to stop them from ressign themselves. Half the time the opener is avoided by running when the clone stops or they face tank the small burn damage I do. > > > > > > On a condi build its def a lot deadlier, however its avoided the same way. > > > > I think everyone agrees that EM should just not exist. I'm can half understand the torch issue, but you could literally walk away from it because the phantasm doesn't attack immediately unlike the other phantams. > > > > That trait for torch shouldn't add more burning and I would much rather it did what it used to and just cleanse conditions with the additional recharge. > > > > @"Trevor Boyer.6524" I haven't seen threads started ( recently) with good informed and unbiased changes on these forums. A lot of what I and others have seen has been hyperbole,lies, exaggerating claims, and emotional responses. Especially in the competitive sub forums. I would love to see the threads you have found in the Pvp and/or wvw section that started with well thought out and reasonable OP. That explains in accurate detail mechanics, raw and accurate mathematics with reasonable solutions to fix mirage issues outside of what the Mesmer community ( like EM) has already stated. > > Because I think you are making those threads up. > > I couldnt care less about EM personally. I dont run it and tried it for a couple weeks, however didnt care for it. > > I also agree about the torch trait. Less burn but more cleanse. even if the base burn went down and it cleared another condi I would be ok with that. I'd like it if the Torch trait gave us some sort of generalized condition buff, a small amount of duration or condition damage, since we don't have one of those anymore really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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