Reaper's Shouts - What do you think of them?

[Anchoku.8142]

It has been a while since I last really gave shouts much consideration. How competitive do you think the are compared to core skills, to other professions' shouts, and to other professions' elite spec's?

 

Your Soul is Mine!

You Are All Weaklings!

Nothing Can Save You!

Rise!

Suffer!

Chilled to the Bone!

[DeceiverX.8361]

They're about on par with most other utilities, if not on the better end if comparing things as a set.

 

The issue more or less stems from the fact that there are just blatantly better options or things that absolutely have to be taken in other skill types, but that's the case with every class/spec.

 

YSIM and Suffer are some of the best utilities on necro as a whole and CttB is a very good elite.

 

Rise kind of sucks because it directly competes with Spectral Armor to do the same thing, while YAAW and NCSY are both very good skills but hard to justify taking because you just really need to take others to round out your matchups and cover reaper's weaknesses.

 

Though tbh, talking "competitive" and "reaper" in the same sentence is kinda silly. The reaper really isn't usable in most competitive contexts.

[SlippyCheeze.5483]

yeah, all of them are good, a number are situational. (eg: extra condition cleanse needed) generally, though, is fine.

[Dadnir.5038]

Well I'd say that all of them are fine and even among the best thing to take when you want to play casually.

[Brujeria.7536]

It depends.

Your Soul is Mine! is good, fair healing, low cooldown to make use of certain rune sets.

 

You Are All Weaklings! Could be better, its a stunbreak, but its other effects are okayish. The might is nice but the weakness alone is too bad to justify a slot most of the time for me. This one would be much better if it did also blind, for an on demand blind, even when stunned.

 

Nothing Can Save You! Is bad, mostly because of the casttime. Reaper skills are all heavily telegraphed, having to use a shout and a telegraphed skill after is overkill against any decent foe.

 

Rise! Is okay. It looses its purpose against multiple foes as the minions die way quicker in the cleave, for small scale fights 1v1 /2v2 its okay, everything above is just unreliable and not worth its longish cooldown. Remember: Endure pain hast just 60 seconds of cooldown and is far more reliable in all circumstances.

 

Suffer! Is bad in my book. Against a single target the condi transfer is not enough, against 5 targets the condi transfer is not good as chances are you get far more condis then you can cleanse.

 

Chilled to the Bone! - The cooldown is what kills it. Its heavily telegraphed and doenst even stun for as long as Jade Winds for Rev. It needs a little bit lower cooldown and a longer stun and it would be good.

 

 

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"DeceiverX.8361" said:

> They're about on par with most other utilities, if not on the better end if comparing things as a set.

>

> The issue more or less stems from the fact that there are just blatantly better options or things that absolutely have to be taken in other skill types, but that's the case with every class/spec.

>

> YSIM and Suffer are some of the best utilities on necro as a whole and CttB is a very good elite.

>

> Rise kind of sucks because it directly competes with Spectral Armor to do the same thing, while YAAW and NCSY are both very good skills but hard to justify taking because you just really need to take others to round out your matchups and cover reaper's weaknesses.

>

> Though tbh, talking "competitive" and "reaper" in the same sentence is kinda silly. The reaper really isn't usable in most competitive contexts.

 

Yes, I had suddenly wondered if the shout utilities might part of Reaper's issues. A buff to shout damage or effects might make my Reaper's utility selection less like a buffet of core skills capped by a cherry elite. Every one of the skills is selfish and nearly all are debuffs so they may not be as diverse a set of utilities as they could be. The shouts seem very highly focused on providing sustain in a crowd of trash mobs.

 

Looking for some more opinions, though.

[Kiroshima.8497]

Don't forget that when Deathly Chill was 3 stacks of bleeding, Reaper Shouts were pretty great with the Reaper Runes (all shouts chill in an AoE around you) in terms of WvW large scale play. You could dump huge amounts of bleeding on 5 targets very quickly, and the burst was unblockable using Nothing Can Save You (like 8 seconds of unblockable time if you hit 5).

 

Nowadays Reaper Runes aren't too great since in WvW Scourge can put a larger variety of condis without taking any utilities, at up to 1200 range. Reaper Runes have like 240 range and variable cooldown (tied to your shouts).

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Kiroshima.8497" said:

> Don't forget that when Deathly Chill was 3 stacks of bleeding, Reaper Shouts were pretty great with the Reaper Runes (all shouts chill in an AoE around you) in terms of WvW large scale play. You could dump huge amounts of bleeding on 5 targets very quickly, and the burst was unblockable using Nothing Can Save You (like 8 seconds of unblockable time if you hit 5).

>

> Nowadays Reaper Runes aren't too great since in WvW Scourge can put a larger variety of condis without taking any utilities, at up to 1200 range. Reaper Runes have like 240 range and variable cooldown (tied to your shouts).

 

I miss those days. It was cancer but short ranged. Had to get up close and personal for it to work.

[Rhyse.8179]

The shouts are amazing if you use reaper in it's original intent, which is GS melee against multiple opponents. They all strike multiple foes, chill or disable them in some way, or offer a strong defense. CTTB is kind of crap though. The main problem is that reaper shroud was nerfed hard, making a melee build basically suicide, and GS itself isn't really viable due to lack of mobility and extreme telegraphs. So the optimal build for using shouts with is not one anyone will actually want to use.

[Sublimatio.6981]

i think these shouts are pathetic. suffer should be a pure dps skill, meanwhile well of corruption, shadow fiend and maybe even locust signet are stronger than that. the elite is a waste of space, the healing skill is inferior to any other. the might generation from you're all weaklings is like 5/6 short might stacks per 30 seconds while you can upkeep perma 10 might stacks with BiP (for 5 people!). the unblockable buff from nothing can save you is nice but its such a niche, like even in fractals where you might want it (volcanic, thaumanova) it's still better to just take dps skill and wait the blocks out.

[Warscythes.9307]

Alright I think people really need to start posting their opinions and label what game mode they are talking about. Cause we all know one skill can be amazing in one mode but not next. This sort of conflicting opinion on something makes no sense if you guys are not talking about the same thing.

 

As for me

 

They are good in open world but useless in most high level pve content.

 

Decent in pvp but it is currently crowded out by wells

 

Decent in wvw because of the instant cast nature

 

I think the only one shout that is practically never used is "nothing will save you". The biggest offender is probably the cast time. Remove that would be the biggest step, maybe even make it a stun breaker to compete with "you are all weaklings"

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

I've said it before and I'll say it again (and again until it gets changed,) but "Nothing Can Save You!" needs to lose its cast time to be a good skill.

[NecroSummonsMors.7816]

This is for all gamemodes:

 

"Your Soul is Mine!" : Change from 5% to 10% lf and make 2% add for foe + add a bonus healing part for number of foes around you. The idea is to make more usefull for healing and decent lf gain when single target, while increasing the healing potential vs multi targets.

 

"You are all Weaklings!" : Increase might stacks to 10, increase duration of might to 15s. Or add quickness to the shout (which i would prefer tbh)

 

"Suffer!": Rework to have 1 condi removed + 1 per each target. Right now single target 1 condi cleanse is not enough for 18s, this would change would make it more effective removing 2 while 1 target and 6 condis vs 5 targets.

 

"Nothing Can Save You!": REMOVE THE FKING CAST TIME. You cant properly combo gravedigger or grasping darkness with the shout to make them unblockcable if there's the cast time.

 

"Chilled to the Bone!": Reduce the cooldown to 80s. So when traited vs 5 target it recharge in 52s and makes it more reliable to use.

 

Augury of Death:

Remove the stupid life siphon, because it's useless and doesn't heal at all. Put instead of life siphoning a 5% life force for each shout.

 

 

 

[Rym.1469]

They're all among the top quality utilities Reaper has. For some, lack of use stems more from how metagame shapes up. Right now traited wells for example bring better survivability and have added benefits like rezzing that push out Shouts in some slots. As suggested above, Shouts having solid Life Force generation when traited would likely make many of them resurface.

 

For PvE, they obviously weren't intended to be good there from day 1. Those are all PvP-centric utilities that may also see some use in solo content, but you wouldn't take them into a raid outside of niche situations.

 

The only shout I can see getting reworked for PvE someday is "YAAW!", as even in PvP you'd more likely take some Spectral skill or Well that has similar role.

[Lahmia.2193]

I've always loved NCSY in combination with gs 5 and 4. But the cast time did make it somewhat wonky.

[Warkind.6745]

I like You Are All Weaklings with runes of strength and Chilled to the Bone. People always blow their evades on evading those big telegraphed greatsword attacks anyways, so the cast time doesn't bother me much.

[Lahmia.2193]

> @"Warkind.6745" said:

> I like You Are All Weaklings with runes of strength and Chilled to the Bone. People always blow their evades on evading those big telegraphed greatsword attacks anyways, so the cast time doesn't bother me much.

 

It's great for baiting evades too.

[dceptaconroy.7928]

Cast times are garbo. Elites good but on too long a cd.

[Catchyfx.5768]

For me personaly, are shouts good ONLY if traited with lower CD per hit, breakstun cuz lowest cd breakstun fór necro, ulti because core ultimates Are .... You know... And heal cuz Its fastest heal And generate lifeforce without hit So perma on CD if runing in wvw. If traited ulzi became nice bit this means you need to go yolo 1v3 or more. In 1v1 Are rly bad exept breakstun And ult

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

"Nothing could save you" should have a shorter CD and no cast; like Chilled to the bone should have a stronger effect (dmg or stun) or shorter CD.

Same for "rise" 60sec in pvp ... the dmg reduction already get nerf to 33% and theses minions die really quickly with all the aoe spam etc, the skill is useless in all situations without Death Magic.

 

[Nimon.7840]

Rise should give dmg reduction as long as minions are alive. And not end when minions get outfight.

 

Others are ok. Well I never use YAAW because you need to take defensive skills and this skill isn't defensive enough.

 

NCSY should have no casttime. Most classes don't use that many blocks. So it's very very very niche skill. If the effect would be: your attacks are unlockable and even penetrate invulnerable. Then the casttime would be justified.

 

CttB is awesome. Even if you don't take cd-reduction.

It's so easy to bait out dodges with it while cancelling it via weapon stow. And then casting it again.

 

 

Suffer is pretty good

Healskill is pretty good against power builds

[Anchoku.8142]

Great discussion, people. Thank you.

 

I agree that shouts were not designed for PvE end-game. Defiance takes away a lot of their utility and there are no real dps options. The shouts all support debuffing and a little scaling sustain. They are more potent in open world where almost anything is fine, anyway.

 

Being melee skills without an invulnerability or evade in WvW is a distinct handicap. The shouts do not fit well in red-circle warfare where the AoE condi and defense are easily overwhelmed. I am fine with that.

 

They do better in PvP but they could use some tweaks like reduced cast times, scaling potency, and maybe an ammo system.

 

If shouts are not PvE end-game or WvW, the should be tuned entirely for PvP, imo, and let open world use whatever results. Shouts are not bad, there, so minor changes may suffice to better support Reaper.

 

Thanks, again, for your thoughts.

[Maven.1690]

I have been switching on and off Reaper for WVW.

On for roaming...off sometimes for zerg v zerg.

 

When i have been reaper ive been using the reaper through to the enemy backlines then pop nothing can save you in combination with chilled to the bone or spectral grasp....making both skills unblockable and using against back lines where stability is often not universal wreaks all sorts of havoc. yea it would be better as an instacast but as is now im able to make some good use but only when i can combo something to follow up with it.

[Anchoku.8142]

> @"Maven.1690" said:

> I have been switching on and off Reaper for WVW.

> On for roaming...off sometimes for zerg v zerg.

>

> When i have been reaper ive been using the reaper through to the enemy backlines then pop nothing can save you in combination with chilled to the bone or spectral grasp....making both skills unblockable and using against back lines where stability is often not universal wreaks all sorts of havoc. yea it would be better as an instacast but as is now im able to make some good use but only when i can combo something to follow up with it.

 

Great job on doing that. Do you use FitG before going deep and Wurm to get back out in zerg battles?