My opinion about raids

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Tasty Pudding.3764" said:

> > @"AnariiUK.7409" said:

> > There's always an itch for _good_ challenging group content, and raids definitely scratch that itch.

>

> That's true, but raids aren't the answer for everyone.

 

They don't need to be. They're the answer for one group of players. Another type of content is the answer for another group of players. Yet another - for a third group. And so on. The game is big, and it offers very diverse experiences. On purpose.

[Henry.5713]

Interesting read so far. There seems to be a lot of nostalgia goggling going on and many claims are made with very little actual knowledge of the game modes in question. Yes, modes as we somehow turned this into a WvW vs. PvE discussion.

 

WvW was never the place to go to for rewards and neither was PvP for that matter. I remember sitting in the lobby wearing low level skins and nothing too shiny (back when you had to rank up to acquire new skins) while I already owned multiple legendaries in PvE and I remember roaming for countless of hours in WvW not even caring one bit about the gold I wasted on food and oils.

Thing is, any type of PvP mode has that added luxury over PvE. You know... playing against other players is challenging and fun. It takes far longer for it to become stale. Simply winning makes you feel good as you beat another player.

We still can't deny the impact the updated reward system made. It made the entire thing so much more pleasing to the veterans who no longer have to step out of their favorite mode for almost anything. Even more so, the patch brought in new people in droves. Quite a few of which ended up sticking for the gameplay itself, realizing what they had missed over the years. Getting them addicted to that feeling .

 

PvE may be a different story, but not entirely. People play for the rewards, certainly. There is one thing those mostly into PvP and WvW seem to forget, however. Playing WITH people is as much fun as playing AGAINST people. In fact, it is actually way more fun to a lot of players in the community. AnariiUK is right about the hundreds of players doing multiple clears each week. Those in it for the legendary armor alone, those who'd then never touch raids ever again are actually the PvE version of any given bad PIP farmer in WvW. They will never understand why people actually like the content in question and they do not care to.

 

As far as nerfing rewards killed dungeons - again, yes and no. Sometimes the fun and challenge comes from improving to a degree which allows you to squeeze rewards as much as possible. How could people not be disappointed about the way ArenaNet handled the entire thing. People had improved, they had practiced, they had statics and scheduled dungeon tours, they enjoyed improving. One big benchmark being the gold/h you could again just to have that taken from them. They tried to send people to play Fractals and the upcoming raids in such a disrespectful way that made people feel like the devs knew nothing about the dungeon community.

Something similar happened in WvW when they decided to replace everything with the desert map. An updated and better version of what you currently have, bound to be more fun, right? People loved having no say in that matter, right? They obviously did not.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"Saint Sated.2698" said:

> A big difference I've seen in gw2 is that the 1% here have led the rest to believe that viable =/= best, and that is certainly NOT the description of viable. Anything that isn't posted on SC's website isn't allowed in raids in gw2. Raiding doesn't have to consist of speed clearing, and I don't think Anet is to blame. It's the community of sheep.

 

Well, viable isn't the best. Right now I see Sword Weaver as well as Healing Tempest on the SC site.

I'm also seeing Power Chronomancer, Condi Engi, Power Daredevil, Power Deadeye and 3 different Guardian Builds. While those builds are viable, they aren't optimal.

 

What i don't see is Sword Holo, which does get played.

 

People don't follow SC a 100%.

Pugs do play with 2 healers. That's not optimal.

You probably won't get kicked because you play Condi BS on KC instead of Power.

You won't get kicked because you swaped Elemental Contingency for Lesser Arcane Shield.

You will probably be kicked if you swap the Arcane Traitline for Earth. Simply because it doesn't make any sense, neither as a DPS nor as a Healer.

 

> Enrage timers are hardly a problem, so why the rush? Why can't casuals experience this game mode? If we wipe - we wipe. Then we regroup and restart. Same as in gw1.

 

Because some people don't want to waste time, trying to kill one Boss with a group that should be experienced?

Because clearing content fast can be fun?

There are a lot of reasons.

 

> Tldr: Gw2's "1%" that sets the mark for speed clearing end game PvE content is toxic for the community as a whole because they spread lies that "this won't work in raids / not viable" and the community follows suit, telling newcomers what their overlords have decided is the ONLY way to play this content.

 

Oh FFS. Did you even bother looking at who is saying that? It's not the “1%”.

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> > >

> > > Just saying the truth with that one.

> >

> > WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> > Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

>

> A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

 

And a living mode would totally need to rework the server system and change it to alliances right ?

How about before they even go into the above change and why we have linked servers to begin with ?

How about added reward tracks to the game mode ?

What about adding WvW levels/Masteries .... Because people needed that progression to play.

 

Ironically, having people tell me i don't play WvW yet again. It's okay, i get that you see me post more here than there, but as i said it's a dead mode.

I remember the days back when we had orbs of power and queue times every day that wasn't just limited to reset, those days are long gone for things not in T1 and what livelyhood you say the mode has is about as artificial as the respirator the mode is on.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Raizel.8175" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > But.. Raids.. Like Dungeons.. would die overnight if they nerfed the rewards, because as you so clearly put, you will follow the path of least resistance, which also includes the path to loot. Just don't confuse yourself with people that legit are looking for challenge and fun.

>

> You know... there kinda are... well... people that play games for fun... I guess?

 

Before they nerfed the rewards for Dungeons, people played them for "Fun" .. We saw how long that lasted.

[STIHL.2489]

The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

 

Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

 

Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

>Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

>

> Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

 

That must be the reason why i do at least 3 Fullclears a week. Because i need to collect those sexy bags of gear.

If you struggle to collect bags PM me. Ill gladly share my 6k bags of gear with you.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

>

> Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

>

> Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

 

Nah, the loot chasers can be found in the Domain of Istan lately. Previously they were busy multilooting Tarir or chestfarming the Silverwastes. Or grinding fractal 40. Let's be realistic - raids are not an efficient way to get loot. They have **never** been. So to attribute their success to loot alone is a fallacy. It plays a part (which is different per individual by the way), but it never dictates the decision all by itself.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > @"TexZero.7910" said:

> > > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > > Anyone that actually played WvW would know better then to say Any Game mode would die with less rewards.

> > > >

> > > > Just saying the truth with that one.

> > >

> > > WvW is a dead mode. The only place it's "Thrived" is in the top 3 servers of each region.

> > > Hence why they keep trying to re-invent it and add more and more rewards to it.

> >

> > A dead mode would mean no one is there as there is no life in it, yet I have no trouble finding squads in WvW and fighting large enemy zergs and so forth.

>

> And a living mode would totally need to rework the server system and change it to alliances right ?

> How about before they even go into the above change and why we have linked servers to begin with ?

> How about added reward tracks to the game mode ?

> What about adding WvW levels/Masteries .... Because people needed that progression to play.

>

> Ironically, having people tell me i don't play WvW yet again. It's okay, i get that you see me post more here than there, but as i said it's a dead mode.

> I remember the days back when we had orbs of power and queue times every day that wasn't just limited to reset, those days are long gone for things not in T1 and what livelyhood you say the mode has is about as artificial as the respirator the mode is on.

 

Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

[STIHL.2489]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

> >

> > Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

> >

> > Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

>

> Nah, the loot chasers can be found in the Domain of Istan lately. Previously they were busy multilooting Tarir or chestfarming the Silverwastes. Or grinding fractal 40. Let's be realistic - raids are not an efficient way to get loot. They have **never** been. So to attribute their success to loot alone is a fallacy. It plays a part (which is different per individual by the way), but it never dictates the decision all by itself.

 

to coin a phrase.

 

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> You missed the point completely, haven't you?

 

 

[STIHL.2489]

> @"RaidsAreEasyAF.8652" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> >Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

> >

> > Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

>

> That must be the reason why i do at least 3 Fullclears a week. Because i need to collect those sexy bags of gear.

> If you struggle to collect bags PM me. Ill gladly share my 6k bags of gear with you.

 

Thanks! My Screen name is included at the top of my every post, mail me as much as you like.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

 

Yes every person that **plays** would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor. Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

The only difference is probably we wouldn't have as many sellers, and buyers, if there was no Envoy Armor in Raids.

 

WVW has people playing because it's brain dead easy to get any of its rewards, it's more comparable to the general open world in difficulty (outside meta events) and moving around in huge blobs pressing 1 on your keyboard is more than enough to get rewarded. Especially if you are on the server that has the numerical advantage or you go for PVD ignoring other players and only taking un-defended objectives for karma trains. Let's not pretend that playing in WVW requires any kind of skill or experience.

 

There was (is? sorry haven't been following it) a GvG scene where the actual good WVW players were fighting in more "equal" terms, that's where skill came into effect. Unfortunately Arenanet didn't endorse the "mode" only gave WVW guilds a place to fight (the arena in OS) but nothing official about it. Maybe sometime in the future they will endorse it and the word "skill" can be attributed to WVW.

[Tyson.5160]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

>

> Yes every person that **plays** would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor. Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

> The only difference is probably we wouldn't have as many sellers, and buyers, if there was no Envoy Armor in Raids.

>

 

That’s presuming a lot, MADD, plus you are using absolutes, EVERY person, really? Are you sure about that?

 

Plus, I’ll take it back Raids isn’t a dead mode, it’s in a vegetative state on life support, with its family members coming to check in on them every 6 to 8 months.

 

 

[Badcat.7320]

> @"Ashantara.8731" said:

> > @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > Have you considered that maybe raids just aren't for you?

>

> And how so? I am a fast learner, I adapt quickly, and I enjoy a good challenge. I am just sick and tired of having to be "elite" by providing proof of my skill through hours spent in said content. There must be a way for casual raiders to have a place in this type of content as well.

>

> > @"CptAurellian.9537" said:

> > 2) Amazing, someone complaining that there are offers for training runs in the most challenging PvE content in this game.

>

> I wasn't complaining about training runs, I was complaining that - if you don't have the "proper" LI and KP - you are forced to always join training runs, which gets boring.

 

Then you get stuck in this phase. Could be good enough to beat the boss but rest of squad is not. Then never gain LIs and KPs.. It is not that raid is made for best players. Raid is made for obsessed player and not casual player.

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

>

> Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

>

> Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

 

Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content. This applies to every single game mode. Pretending you know without a doubt why every person who raids frequently does so just invalidates every argument you have. Stop trying.

 

I've been deleting or salvaging every ascended raid item and not spending any currency for a year+. In that scenario it comes at a literal gold loss due to food, just like you spoke about WvW. I'd say 95%+ of the reason I raid is literally just to talk with my friends who also like that content.

 

I want to be on your side but this constant spew of absolutist arguments will get you nowhere. The only thing absolute in this entire thread is that by definition fractals are PvE. In an online MMO the "E" meaning environment is 100% equal to non-players...aka "Player vs Non-Player".

[TexZero.7910]

> @"Tyson.5160" said:

> Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

 

I can say with pretty good certainty that no, the same amount wouldn't be playing it. Rewards are important that's why they had to add them to WvW to get a population spike and it still wasn't enough hence why they've linked servers and are now migrating to an alliance system and removing servers as a whole.

 

But again, I'm not the one here who thinks WvW is in a healthy state and has a really active population. I've seen WvW in a healthy state with active populations, what we have currently is some Frankenstein level surgery attempting to keep that mode afloat because it can't hold itself up.

[STIHL.2489]

> @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

> >

> > Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

> >

> > Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

>

> Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content.

 

Huh? Did you miss how predictable and easy Anet killed Dungeon content by simply modify the rewards?

[Astralporing.1957]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

>

> Yes every person that **plays** would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

 

>Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

 

 

 

[ButterPeanut.9746]

> @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > @"ButterPeanut.9746" said:

> > > @"STIHL.2489" said:

> > > The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards.

> > >

> > > Only the most closed minded and blind to the larger discussion think this is purely about a single game mode or content. It's about player base that flocks to that kind of content. Raids attract loot chasers, people that want loot above all else, and the best kind of loot to this greed driven demographic is loot that they feel others can't get.

> > >

> > > Truth will be Truth.. regardless if you don't like it.

> >

> > Dude if you want to make any progress you've got to stop speaking in absolutes. It is absolutely impossible to predict the reason for why every single person plays or doesn't play a particular set of content.

>

> Huh? Did you miss how predictable and easy Anet killed Dungeon content by simply modify the rewards?

 

Nowhere in your post that I commented on did you mention dungeons. Not really relevant to the topic of this thread. I do find this interesting though:

 

"The problem is that the people who do raids, foolishly think that everyone is like them, and will go after the loot, and the path of least resistance to the best loot... hence their continual parroting of the patently false belief that any content or game mode would die without it's rewards."

 

What is interesting is I don't know any raiders who think like that but it seems like you do but based on your other posts I would guess that you don't raid often. Thonk

 

Anyone who has any interest in the legendary armor knows that the raiding requirements are the easy part...its the 300 provisoner tokens that are the "challenging content" xD

 

 

[Feanor.2358]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

> >

> > Yes every person that **plays** would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

> Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

>

> >Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

> It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

>

>

>

 

And I know regular and semi-regular raiders who *only* clear W5 recently. Anecdotal evidence either way.

 

By the way, on the topic of dungeons... Dungeons didn't just die when they became non-profitable. They died when they became non-profitable *AND* when the game offered better instanced content. The extrapolation to raids dying if their loot suddenly became poor fails to account for that second reason. Raids are the best instanced content in the game. And they are not that profitable anyway. So that particular conclusion seems quite the stretch.

[nia.4725]

> @"Astralporing.1957" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > > @"Tyson.5160" said:

> > > Tex, if WvW is a dead mode, then Raids is sitting there with it. Please tell me, if Raids didn’t have Legendary Armor, you know rewards, would the same amount of people be playing it today?

> >

> > Yes every person that **plays** would still play Raids even without Legendary Armor.

> Trust me, not everyone. Not even close. If you really think that way, then you probably simply have a vastly different type of ingame friends/acquaintances than i do.

>

> >Hall of Chains doesn't have Legendary Armor rewards but it is still being played.

> It still has LI. And it _is_played much less than previous wings. I know a lot of regular and semi-regular raiders that skip it completely (or at least started skipping it after getting that one kill for each boss there, to unlock coalescence).

>

>

>

 

The thing with W5 is that its accessibility is awful, horrible, terrible, outrageous. Like, Dhuum TRAININGS ask for 38483858274 lis OR KP. It's absurd and it pisses me off. I have my Dhuum KPs but asking for KP for a training is the epitome of elitism (and stupidity). In my opinion, getting into W5 is a lot harder than getting into any other wing and that has a very negative impact on the amount of players that get to experience it.

[Turin.6921]

> @"Saint Sated.2698" said:

> Tldr: Gw2's "1%" that sets the mark for speed clearing end game PvE content is toxic for the community as a whole because they spread lies that "this won't work in raids / not viable" and the community follows suit, telling newcomers what their overlords have decided is the ONLY way to play this content.

 

Except that this 1% very clearly states that they are presenting optimal and not viable builds and constantly state that none should be a build nazi. Metabattle even has a separate section for easy viable raid builds. Youtubers like Nike have made videos with easy viable builds different than the optimal. Training discords as well.

 

Its the pugs that do not care to understand the game enough and make the mistake of confusing viable with optimal. But no...lets accuse the people actually spending their time making theory crafting the rest of us can use. They are good at the game so they must be elitist by default. Any misconception that the community has must be their fault. Not the community's as a whole.

 

[maddoctor.2738]

What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

 

Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

[Feanor.2358]

> @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

>

> Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

 

Given that pug groups kill Dhuum with CM active, I really question that conclusion. *Some* pugs will fail encounters. But not all of them.

[maddoctor.2738]

> @"Feanor.2358" said:

> > @"maddoctor.2738" said:

> > What was "badly designed" in Raids is that they were developed to be content for static groups and not for pugs. "A pug will defeat some of the encounters but not all of them", I'm paraphrasing here until I find the exact wording, but it was something similar to this. So things like LI, KP, "toxicity", "elitism", that appear exclusively in pugs, weren't part of the design process to begin with. Perhaps that's why there were no systems in place to make LI and KP more visible without pinging and chat commands.

> >

> > Maybe it's time to re-think Raids and how pugs work in Raids.

>

> Given that pug groups kill Dhuum with CM active, I really question that conclusion. *Some* pugs will fail encounters. But not all of them.

 

It's not my conclusion, it's what the developers said. All I'm saying is that when they developed the Raids they didn't think about pugs and how they would group, it was more of an afterthought.