mango of justice.8961 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Just got back from an extended brake and have been looking up some guides online to help me get caught up most of which have suggested that the Thief is a good class to start with however I'v read nothing but negativity surrounding this class on the form, low DPS/Survivability/Etc. Any thoughts on which one is right and if it is a poor choice for restarting what class should i consider instead? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 The short version is, the nature of thief requires it to be one of the weakest classes. Since it is the most mobile class and can ambush from stealth, it has to be weak enough for every single other class to be capable of fighting back. Otherwise, the class that is slower and can't win will never be played, for it will always be just easy prey for the Thief. The Thief is not incapable in any sense. It just happens that a lot of the Thief's PVE utilities aren't that useful in raids, which is the microscope of a view that everyone uses to evaluate the class. Everywhere else, they're fine. In DPS, Survivability, etc. Personally, I wouldn't "restart" a class. Just make another character. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoodie.1045 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"mango of justice.8961" said: > Just got back from an extended brake and have been looking up some guides online to help me get caught up most of which have suggested that the Thief is a good class to start with however I'v read nothing but negativity surrounding this class on the form, low DPS/Survivability/Etc. Any thoughts on which one is right and if it is a poor choice for restarting what class should i consider instead? The thief isn't quite the beginner friendly profession as some people may tell you, especially if you want to have high DPS as well as survivability. The best builds for thief are s/d core and d/p Daredevil. Both of these sets are viable when it comes to both DPS and survivability. I'm a core player and I would recommend s/d because of the evasiveness. This is what gives the thief more survivability. That doesn't mean that you can just spam Infiltrator's Strike and be a dodging god, you have to practice. Same thing with d/p Daredevil. It utilizes stealth in order to be effective for strong bursts and for stealthing allies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Specialka.7290 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > The short version is, the nature of thief requires it to be one of the weakest classes. Since it is the most mobile class and can ambush from stealth, it has to be weak enough for every single other class to be capable of fighting back. Otherwise, the class that is slower and can't win will never be played, for it will always be just easy prey for the Thief. > > The Thief is not incapable in any sense. It just happens that a lot of the Thief's PVE utilities aren't that useful in raids, which is the microscope of a view that everyone uses to evaluate the class. Everywhere else, they're fine. In DPS, Survivability, etc. > > Personally, I wouldn't "restart" a class. Just make another character. Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Hoodie.1045" said: > > @"mango of justice.8961" said: > > Just got back from an extended brake and have been looking up some guides online to help me get caught up most of which have suggested that the Thief is a good class to start with however I'v read nothing but negativity surrounding this class on the form, low DPS/Survivability/Etc. Any thoughts on which one is right and if it is a poor choice for restarting what class should i consider instead? > > The thief isn't quite the beginner friendly profession as some people may tell you, especially if you want to have high DPS as well as survivability. The best builds for thief are s/d core and d/p Daredevil. Both of these sets are viable when it comes to both DPS and survivability. > > I'm a core player and I would recommend s/d because of the evasiveness. This is what gives the thief more survivability. That doesn't mean that you can just spam Infiltrator's Strike and be a dodging god, you have to practice. Same thing with d/p Daredevil. It utilizes stealth in order to be effective for strong bursts and for stealthing allies. I do agree with you that Thief is no beginner friendly class, but not your reasons, because Mesmer exists. I agree with @"Specialka.7290" on this one, there's no reason for Thief to be as gimped in PvE as it is when there's classes that can do what Thief is supposed to be the best at, while still providing a plethora of supportive skills on-top of great dueling potential for PvP and PvE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > The short version is, the nature of thief requires it to be one of the weakest classes. Since it is the most mobile class and can ambush from stealth, it has to be weak enough for every single other class to be capable of fighting back. Otherwise, the class that is slower and can't win will never be played, for it will always be just easy prey for the Thief. > > > > The Thief is not incapable in any sense. It just happens that a lot of the Thief's PVE utilities aren't that useful in raids, which is the microscope of a view that everyone uses to evaluate the class. Everywhere else, they're fine. In DPS, Survivability, etc. > > > > Personally, I wouldn't "restart" a class. Just make another character. > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? People have that weird notion that thief needs to be weak because of xyz. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elva.6372 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 After 14 characters, most of which are 80, I am more and more convinced that we have a muddled mess developing in regards to Professions and the Elite Specializations. I won't say it can't be improved or straightened out, but I get more concerned as the game continues to go in the current direction. It's the "vision thing" - the Professions are becoming muddied and inconsistent and incoherent. There was a reason why historically the RPG gaming genre relied on the time tested archetype system, ANet has pretty much dispensed with that and is now treading th proverbial shark infested waters of making it up as they go along. The same thing happened when the Trinity Roles were dispensed with, a brave move and **not** a complete and utter failure, but the Class System is becoming a jumbled pile that is worrisome when one ponders future Profession expansions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said: > > > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well. > > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more. > > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you. > > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team. > > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want. THANK YOU. I've been trying to get people to understand this for years. There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game. Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwiceDead.1963 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" Yeah that's a nice sentiment, but only if it's actually practiced. Which means on this topic of _"How is thief these days"_, the answer is still _"So-so. Mesmers beat us in almost everything but, ehh.. Themes and stuff."_ Only instance I can remember where Anet made an attempt to rein themselves in was quite recent though, the patch where they nerfed all the passives in sPvP. More of that please, and while you're at it rein in Mirage as well. Not to undermine themes, cause themes are important... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mango of justice.8961 Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 Thanks for all the feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > > > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > > > > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said: > > > > > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well. > > > > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more. > > > > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you. > > > > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team. > > > > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want. > > THANK YOU. > > I've been trying to get people to understand this for years. > > There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game. > > Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves. Except that Thief was actually in a very fair spot after a series of nerfs had toned down the damage we can do. And buffs to every other classes passives. Our damage was higher than anyone else but it was no longer bonkers. And players actually stood a chance against the class specifically designed for 1v1. Given our limited role diversity and weaknesses it's palpable. Shit spiraled out of control with HoT, and got much worse with PoF. The nerfs never stopped so it got increasingly more difficult for thief to follow their design. But hey, we got mesmer that for some reason is allowed to be the best condi, the best PvP burst, the best fuckin tank, more untouchable than thief, stupidly mobile, virtually no glaring flaws, was allowed to have the best unique buff for a long time, was allowed to make people invulnerable, and is always required in pub raids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sobx.1758 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > > > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > > > > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said: > > > > > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well. > > > > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more. > > > > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you. > > > > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team. > > > > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want. > > THANK YOU. > > I've been trying to get people to understand this for years. > > There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game. > > Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves. People don't want "more of this for themselves and only themselves". If you actually read and understand what they write, it's that people like you keep repeating "it wasn't ok for thief to do this, because it's not a healthy/fair gameplay", while at the same time other classes are allowed to do the very same thing you claim shouldn't exist. For the time being it's simply a flawed argument and lack of consistency in gameplay decisions made by arenanet. And you gladly eat it up and use as some kind of validation of current state of thief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > > > > > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > > > > > > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said: > > > > > > > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well. > > > > > > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more. > > > > > > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you. > > > > > > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team. > > > > > > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want. > > > > THANK YOU. > > > > I've been trying to get people to understand this for years. > > > > There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game. > > > > Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves. > > People don't want "more of this for themselves and only themselves". If you actually read and understand what they write, it's that people like you keep repeating "it wasn't ok for thief to do this, because it's not a healthy/fair gameplay", while at the same time other classes are allowed to do the very same thing you claim shouldn't exist. For the time being it's simply a flawed argument and lack of consistency in gameplay decisions made by arenanet. And you gladly eat it up and use as some kind of validation of current state of thief. And you'll realize I'm vocal about this for every single profession in the game and have been since the start and am usually referring to concepts not classes. I don't want the class I play to be guilty of a problem due to bad design and then nerfed to oblivion for no reason as a consequence. ANet has a history of nerfing symptoms to problems and not the problems themselves because the profession devs seem to either ignore good PvP design or simply do not understand the problems. And so if I request balance changes to things I do not understand I am no better than them and am not qualified to talk about what defines healthy gameplay or the needs of a class to be balanced. So if you want needless buffs nobody asked for just to be Mirage v2 which is clearly and definitely OP right now, so be it. But if you haven't noticed, the number of complaint threads has gone down pretty drastically over the years, and the good thieves are still doing just fine. Asking for unnecessary extras gets nobody anywhere. It's also why finding the root of a given problem is important so that requests for fixes can be targeted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > @"Sobx.1758" said: > > > @"DeceiverX.8361" said: > > > > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > > > > @"Specialka.7290" said: > > > > > > > > > > Thief needs to be weaker because it can ambush from stealth and is mobile? So can we talk about Mesmer? > > > > > > > > > > You do know that in any other mmos or evem games, rogues are always the kings of 1v1? > > > > > > > > > @"omgdracula.6345" said: > > > > > > > > > > Dumbest thing I have read in awhile. Mesmers can literally do all the things can do without punishment. Condi Mirage can literally apply conditions in between stealthing. While also being super mobile as well. > > > > > > > > You've both noticed how much it sucks that mirage can warp everywhere and tear people up. So why, then, do you want the thief to do the same thing? It's just going to suck even more. > > > > > > > > This is a balance problem encountered on many games. Hell, back in City of Heroes, a lot of people wouldn't go into any PVP areas because of the Stalker, which was a nigh undetectable high DPS machine that could wreck everybody. There's a certain good principle in game design: have mechanics that are fun to do, and fun to be the recipient of. Having yourself instantly ganked by an invisible enemy isn't fun. It's fun to do, but its not fun when it happens to you. > > > > > > > > In the early days of GW2, the thief was one of the most hated classes in the game, precisely because it just warped around slaughtering everyone. "Please, nerf Pistol whip! Please, nerf quickness! Please, nerf Signet of Malice! Please, nerf Acrobatics." All day, every day. I still remember when Helseth made a video where he complained how he had to switch from Mesmer to Thief because "Thief is so fast and has so much more power. Mesmers don't stand a chance!" I can't blame him. It sucked to main a class that was rendered utterly useless by the mere existence of a thief on the other team. > > > > > > > > I don't know why Anet decided to throw several years of balancing out the door with PoF. I'm guessing a lack of proper testing. But the fact is that to demand thieves be both the most mobile class _and_ be capable of always beating another class in a straight up brawl is terrible design. The fact that the mirage currently occupies this role and is ruining PVP is proof of this claim There is years of balancing and game design behind this assertion. The only reason why it sounds stupid to you is because you're selfish, and just want to dismiss anything that doesn't immediately give you what you want. > > > > > > THANK YOU. > > > > > > I've been trying to get people to understand this for years. > > > > > > There should be a feeling of fairness any time you lose. It's why powercreep and instant-cast damage are killing this game. > > > > > > Rather than asking for less of it, people just want more of it, but specifically more of it for themselves and only themselves. > > > > People don't want "more of this for themselves and only themselves". If you actually read and understand what they write, it's that people like you keep repeating "it wasn't ok for thief to do this, because it's not a healthy/fair gameplay", while at the same time other classes are allowed to do the very same thing you claim shouldn't exist. For the time being it's simply a flawed argument and lack of consistency in gameplay decisions made by arenanet. And you gladly eat it up and use as some kind of validation of current state of thief. > > And you'll realize I'm vocal about this for every single profession in the game and have been since the start and am usually referring to concepts not classes. > > I don't want the class I play to be guilty of a problem due to bad design and then nerfed to oblivion for no reason as a consequence. ANet has a history of nerfing symptoms to problems and not the problems themselves because the profession devs seem to either ignore good PvP design or simply do not understand the problems. > > And so if I request balance changes to things I do not understand I am no better than them and am not qualified to talk about what defines healthy gameplay or the needs of a class to be balanced. > > So if you want needless buffs nobody asked for just to be Mirage v2 which is clearly and definitely OP right now, so be it. But if you haven't noticed, the number of complaint threads has gone down pretty drastically over the years, and the good thieves are still doing just fine. > > Asking for unnecessary extras gets nobody anywhere. It's also why finding the root of a given problem is important so that requests for fixes can be targeted. that conversation of which half got deleted, started with blood red arachnid claiming ' thief has to be one of the weakest classe' because of the way it is designed. and that is just stupid. because that would mean ideally a thief would lose any fight on same skill level wich is not really a desireable balance goal. so ofc people got upset, nobody here asked for buffs merly pointed out that some other profession is doing a little too good at the moment wich lets the thief appear in a bad spot. while it is important to long term seek balanced and healthy class designs, people allways will ask for short term little adjustments to get on the same relative power level as other classes. because if half the classes is healthy and well balanced and the other half is way too overtuned, then the balanced classes will complain about the current situation and will say 'we are currently too weak' and weak here is used relative to the current power of other classes. telling them to shut up as they are overall in a long term as you would ideally see the game balanced and good spot is not helping anyone. and again nobody asked in this thread for a specific buff only that mesmer is doing some stuff too good, wich also can be read as nerf mesmer then we are fine. adjusting classes individually should only be done if their current power level is not in line with the other classes, else all classes have to be adjusted at the same time or it will lead to further balance issues. 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Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"MUDse.7623" said: > that conversation of which half got deleted, started with blood red arachnid claiming ' thief has to be one of the weakest classe' because of the way it is designed. and that is just stupid. because that would mean ideally a thief would lose any fight on same skill level wich is not really a desireable balance goal. That is the ideal. Welcome to the world of class balance in an environment where speed matters. If you give a class the triad of bursty, highly mobile, and completely invisible, then in order to make everything fair you're going to be hit with some pretty severe trades. Other classes have to be able to fight back and be capable of winning _when ambushed from stealth._ That's the thief's greatest asset: it controls when the fight starts, always lands the first blow, and can disengage to reset whenever it feels like it. If you want thieves to be better, you're going to have to sacrifice one of those, or else you'll destroy the game's balance. The thief, by default, has to be on the losing side of a straight up brawl, because _they're never in a straight up brawl._ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > that conversation of which half got deleted, started with blood red arachnid claiming ' thief has to be one of the weakest classe' because of the way it is designed. and that is just stupid. because that would mean ideally a thief would lose any fight on same skill level wich is not really a desireable balance goal. > > That is the ideal. Welcome to the world of class balance in an environment where speed matters. If you give a class the triad of bursty, highly mobile, and completely invisible, then in order to make everything fair you're going to be hit with some pretty severe trades. Other classes have to be able to fight back and be capable of winning _when ambushed from stealth._ That's the thief's greatest asset: it controls when the fight starts, always lands the first blow, and can disengage to reset whenever it feels like it. If you want thieves to be better, you're going to have to sacrifice one of those, or else you'll destroy the game's balance. The thief, by default, has to be on the losing side of a straight up brawl, because _they're never in a straight up brawl._ Ooor... You can fix the problems that were not intended behaviors? Like thief being able to be permanently stealth by reducing the effectiveness of stealth stacking. Which would be more acceptable than allowing a common complaint to be a piss poor excuse for "thief needs to be on the losing end" Because no. No class deserves to be on the losing end of anything in a straight up fight. It should not take me more effort than a fucking mesmer or a guardian to kill anyone. But half the fucking time I have to run from a fight that was in my favor to do some cheap shot, because some bastard on the forums thinks certain classes should be weaker than others. I should not have to be a significantly better player than my opponent to barely scrape by and win. That is a shit design, and one that would have a player base scream for your immediate employment termination. And by that same logic. Mesmer should not be as fucking powerful as it is now. Because it is never in a straight up brawl thanks to the clones. Ranger should be weaker because it out numbers in a 1v1 with its multiple pets. Elementalist would be fragile as hell. Engie would be weaker than it currently is. And Necros because of their fucking minions. So... That means the games strongest classes would be warrior, guardian, and revenant. Which is horse shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"MUDse.7623" said: > > that conversation of which half got deleted, started with blood red arachnid claiming ' thief has to be one of the weakest classe' because of the way it is designed. and that is just stupid. because that would mean ideally a thief would lose any fight on same skill level wich is not really a desireable balance goal. > > That is the ideal. Welcome to the world of class balance in an environment where speed matters. If you give a class the triad of bursty, highly mobile, and completely invisible, then in order to make everything fair you're going to be hit with some pretty severe trades. Other classes have to be able to fight back and be capable of winning _when ambushed from stealth._ That's the thief's greatest asset: it controls when the fight starts, always lands the first blow, and can disengage to reset whenever it feels like it. If you want thieves to be better, you're going to have to sacrifice one of those, or else you'll destroy the game's balance. The thief, by default, has to be on the losing side of a straight up brawl, because _they're never in a straight up brawl._ i think you misunderstood tho. in a straight up brawl weak is oke and understandable. but thief being one of weakest classes is a general statement wich also includes his ambush capabilities. just for a 1 vs 1 fight over nothing, a thief especially deadeye is atm at a really strong position. but you will only find that used efficiently in WvW (solo)roaming. and that is mostly because of his ambush and disengage tools. but that is just a really tiny fraction of the game. extended periods of stealth wich are needed for a good ambush are inefficient in any other part of the game. i personally dont need the thief to be much stronger because i use mine mainly for solo roaming in WvW. but there are people who would like to use the thief in other parts of the game as well and the thief could use some improvements there. i just log onto my mesmer for fractals and raid, because i really dont care what i play, i mainly play thief tho because i mostly solo roam in WvW and thief was allways best for this, imo choosing the most efficient class for the task ahead is an important skill because it is required to achieve the best results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jugglemonkey.8741 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 I remember someone in my guild saying that the devs don't want to reward spamming the same skill over and over (ini system) with high dps. Not sure I agree with it (if easy to play means low dps why is warrior top spot for small and large hitbox atm?) but I see where he's coming from too. When it comes to 1v1 I think it's reasonable to have to choose between being an assassin or being a brawler, as like people said there's no counterplay otherwise. Warrior is an excellent brawler but you see the dude coming a mile away. Mesmer, specifically mirage, breaks that rule and it's patently broken, that should be nerfed rather than us buffed. The problem is the usual, there's one rule for one class but another for another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Red Arachnid.2493 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > Ooor... You can fix the problems that were not intended behaviors? Like thief being able to be permanently stealth by reducing the effectiveness of stealth stacking. Which would be more acceptable than allowing a common complaint to be a kitten poor excuse for "thief needs to be on the losing end" > > Because no. No class deserves to be on the losing end of anything in a straight up fight. It should not take me more effort than a kitten mesmer or a guardian to kill anyone. But half the kitten time I have to run from a fight that was in my favor to do some cheap shot, because some kitten on the forums thinks certain classes should be weaker than others. I should not have to be a significantly better player than my opponent to barely scrape by and win. That is a kitten design, and one that would have a player base scream for your immediate employment termination. > > And by that same logic. Mesmer should not be as kitten powerful as it is now. Because it is never in a straight up brawl thanks to the clones. Ranger should be weaker because it out numbers in a 1v1 with its multiple pets. Elementalist would be fragile as hell. Engie would be weaker than it currently is. And Necros because of their kitten minions. > > > So... That means the games strongest classes would be warrior, guardian, and revenant. Which is horse kitten. Fixing those unintended behaviors is trading away the advantages... I'll explain the terminology more simply: the "straight up brawl" is when two players actively engage each other in direct combat without resorting to gimmicks or cheese tactics. No kiting from range, no hit-and-run tactics, no exploiting terrain, no ambushing. Just two players charging in and fighting each other to the death. Things like minions and clones, those are supplementary to the fight, and don't somehow invalidate the direct engagement. Aside from random factors and class mechanics having a rock-paper-scissors effect, one of the most important things to keep in mind is movement speed. If you have a class that is frail, it must be quick, or else it will be relentlessly chased down and killed by the less frail yet much faster class. Likewise, if you have a class that is slow, it also must be quite durable and output a lot of pressure, or else it will be chased down the by the more powerful yet less slow class. So long as the frail classes are fast and the tough classes are slow, there's a sense of agency to the fight. This "problem" isn't unique to the Thief. The other side of the coin is the necromancer. Since necromancers are the slowest class in the game, they must always be capable of standing their ground against every other class in the game, or else they will become unplayable in PVP. For a large portion of PVP, they _were_ nearly unplayable. Necromancers got knocked around like ping-pong balls, and their slow DPS meant that every other class could just charge up and kill them. The only way for a necromancer to win was to have a full life force bar, a resource that they themselves weren't ultimately in control over. It took several updates buffing their defenses and damage before they could become competitive, which ultimately lead to the condi meta and the minion meta. When Reaper came out, it was a bit of a joke, because scrappers and berserkers were better bruisers that were also faster moving. This isn't to say that one class should always lose, no matter what. Tactics exist for a reason. But what this does say is that one class shouldn't be able to beat another one just by slamming all their DPS skills while the other class has no chance to escape. That's just bad design, going up to every elementalist and telling them that their job is to be fodder for enemy thieves and mesmers. "Yep, as soon as one goes over the hill, you might as well GG because they'll beat you to a pulp and you can never get away from them." I'll explain another thing simply: None of the professions in the game are going to be evenly balanced with each other. As soon as two different classes meet, somebody is on the losing end. By the product of their effective health multiplied by their DPS, someone is automatically losing before the first button is even pressed. The only way for such a system to exist and also be balanced is if speed tiers are properly respected. If they aren't, then PVP falls apart. Much like it just did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Blood Red Arachnid.2493" said: > > @"Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497" said: > > > > Ooor... You can fix the problems that were not intended behaviors? Like thief being able to be permanently stealth by reducing the effectiveness of stealth stacking. Which would be more acceptable than allowing a common complaint to be a kitten poor excuse for "thief needs to be on the losing end" > > > > Because no. No class deserves to be on the losing end of anything in a straight up fight. It should not take me more effort than a kitten mesmer or a guardian to kill anyone. But half the kitten time I have to run from a fight that was in my favor to do some cheap shot, because some kitten on the forums thinks certain classes should be weaker than others. I should not have to be a significantly better player than my opponent to barely scrape by and win. That is a kitten design, and one that would have a player base scream for your immediate employment termination. > > > > And by that same logic. Mesmer should not be as kitten powerful as it is now. Because it is never in a straight up brawl thanks to the clones. Ranger should be weaker because it out numbers in a 1v1 with its multiple pets. Elementalist would be fragile as hell. Engie would be weaker than it currently is. And Necros because of their kitten minions. > > > > > > So... That means the games strongest classes would be warrior, guardian, and revenant. Which is horse kitten. > > Fixing those unintended behaviors is trading away the advantages... > > I'll explain the terminology more simply: the "straight up brawl" is when two players actively engage each other in direct combat without resorting to gimmicks or cheese tactics. No kiting from range, no hit-and-run tactics, no exploiting terrain, no ambushing. Just two players charging in and fighting each other to the death. Things like minions and clones, those are supplementary to the fight, and don't somehow invalidate the direct engagement. > > Aside from random factors and class mechanics having a rock-paper-scissors effect, one of the most important things to keep in mind is movement speed. If you have a class that is frail, it must be quick, or else it will be relentlessly chased down and killed by the less frail yet much faster class. Likewise, if you have a class that is slow, it also must be quite durable and output a lot of pressure, or else it will be chased down the by the more powerful yet less slow class. So long as the frail classes are fast and the tough classes are slow, there's a sense of agency to the fight. > > This "problem" isn't unique to the Thief. The other side of the coin is the necromancer. Since necromancers are the slowest class in the game, they must always be capable of standing their ground against every other class in the game, or else they will become unplayable in PVP. For a large portion of PVP, they _were_ nearly unplayable. Necromancers got knocked around like ping-pong balls, and their slow DPS meant that every other class could just charge up and kill them. The only way for a necromancer to win was to have a full life force bar, a resource that they themselves weren't ultimately in control over. It took several updates buffing their defenses and damage before they could become competitive, which ultimately lead to the condi meta and the minion meta. When Reaper came out, it was a bit of a joke, because scrappers and berserkers were better bruisers that were also faster moving. > > This isn't to say that one class should always lose, no matter what. Tactics exist for a reason. But what this does say is that one class shouldn't be able to beat another one just by slamming all their DPS skills while the other class has no chance to escape. That's just bad design, going up to every elementalist and telling them that their job is to be fodder for enemy thieves and mesmers. "Yep, as soon as one goes over the hill, you might as well GG because they'll beat you to a pulp and you can never get away from them." > > I'll explain another thing simply: None of the professions in the game are going to be evenly balanced with each other. As soon as two different classes meet, somebody is on the losing end. By the product of their effective health multiplied by their DPS, someone is automatically losing before the first button is even pressed. The only way for such a system to exist and also be balanced is if speed tiers are properly respected. If they aren't, then PVP falls apart. Much like it just did. Except at launch that's not how it worked, and after a few. Balance changes PvP was at it's best state. Necro wasn't squishy or helpless. Necros whole deal was controlling boons and debuffs which really screwed over classes that depended heavily on passives or condi. Warrior was a versatile brawler that was well rounded. Guardian wrecked your shit for attacking him, and did harm onto you as you did others. Thief excelled at pressuring and being sticky in one on one fights, but was frail. Engie was an impenetrable asshole on defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeceiverX.8361 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 And it goes full circle. We've already covered this. Thief at launch was braindead easy with a one-button ranged kill into glass or two-button kill into tanks with infinite stealth and initiative. It was in absolutely no way balanced up until the stealth fix which took a month to add and IoS changes which didn't happen until a full year after release. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gatvin.6510 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 The problem is other classes drawbacks don't keep them from filling their role in the game. Rifle Deadeye's drawbacks do. And if you think rfile is good for WvW roaming, you need to try roaming more. Mesmer is the king of solo roaming. You can get the drop on a mesmer 3v1 and the mesmer will likely kill anyone that doesn't know have half-decent pvp skills before blinking away. If the mesmer gets the drop on you and you don't have high passive defense stats, you're dead. If you get the drop on a deadeye, you probably killed them. If they get the drop on you (which you will be able to tell from the bright red dot over your head that does little to no damage) you pop a defensive skill and run at them if you want to kill them or run behind a wall if you just want to focus on your objective. Rifle Deadeye is a challenge to roam with, can only effectively fight one person at a time, and is iffy at taking camps without using otherwise garbage skills like Thieves Guild and Ambush Trap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUDse.7623 Posted June 6, 2018 Share Posted June 6, 2018 > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > The problem is other classes drawbacks don't keep them from filling their role in the game. Rifle Deadeye's drawbacks do. And **if you think rfile is good for WvW roaming, you need to try roaming more.** Mesmer is the king of solo roaming. You can get the drop on a mesmer 3v1 and the mesmer will likely kill anyone that doesn't know have half-decent pvp skills before blinking away. If the mesmer gets the drop on you and you don't have high passive defense stats, you're dead. If you get the drop on a deadeye, you probably killed them. If they get the drop on you (which you will be able to tell from the bright red dot over your head that does little to no damage) you pop a defensive skill and run at them if you want to kill them or run behind a wall if you just want to focus on your objective. Rifle Deadeye is a challenge to roam with, can only effectively fight one person at a time, and is iffy at taking camps without using otherwise garbage skills like Thieves Guild and Ambush Trap. maybe you should try deadeye a little more in roaming, only because you run into bad deadeyes doesnt make the class weak. most deadeyes i see just try a deadeye build for a change, but really active deadeye players you wont encounter many of em. there were maybe 5-10 at most in EU WvW before the patch, the rest was just part time deadeyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babazhook.6805 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 > @"Gatvin.6510" said: > The problem is other classes drawbacks don't keep them from filling their role in the game. Rifle Deadeye's drawbacks do. And if you think rfile is good for WvW roaming, you need to try roaming more. Mesmer is the king of solo roaming. You can get the drop on a mesmer 3v1 and the mesmer will likely kill anyone that doesn't know have half-decent pvp skills before blinking away. If the mesmer gets the drop on you and you don't have high passive defense stats, you're dead. If you get the drop on a deadeye, you probably killed them. If they get the drop on you (which you will be able to tell from the bright red dot over your head that does little to no damage) you pop a defensive skill and run at them if you want to kill them or run behind a wall if you just want to focus on your objective. Rifle Deadeye is a challenge to roam with, can only effectively fight one person at a time, and is iffy at taking camps without using otherwise garbage skills like Thieves Guild and Ambush Trap. I solo roam rifle DE every night. My solo time is likely ~60 percentish with the rest spent mixed between small groups or in a zerg. DE Rifle does fine. Excellent escape, can flip camps quickly. I do not use Thieves guild or ambush to flip camps. I never have issues flipping them and tend to stick to rifle through the entirety. (I Have a bloodlust sigil in the alternate d/p set and will often use that in a camp just to get the stacks up. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alatar.7364 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It's depressing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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