WvW has the longer shade cooldown. Will Anet Fix?

[misterman.1530]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > True. Bad players whining about Scourges. All. The. Time. And Anet tears up and nerfs us. Here's the secret to defeating a Scourge: DON'T STAND IN THE FREAKING CIRCLES! There - a pro-tip for you.

> >

>

> The circles that instantly fill up the entire screen or cover an entire node in PvP? Yeah, thought so.

 

Yes. Those circles - just move. Scourges get hit with other scourge shades you know. We just are smart enough to dodge out and condi cleanse/transfer.

 

Frankly, they could nerf it all they want in PvP. I really couldn't care less. Hell, delete/remove the entire game mode, as far as I'm concerned. The ONLY people whining about Scourges in WvW are people who don't play properly. Simple as that.

 

[mulzi.8273]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> True. Bad players whining about Scourges. All. The. Time. And Anet tears up and nerfs us. Here's the secret to defeating a Scourge: DON'T STAND IN THE FREAKING CIRCLES! There - a pro-tip for you.

>

 

while i agree with you on that point, you have to admit that the ability to spam the shade with savant was really a crutch for FoTmers with little to no experience to excel past any other classes (for kills). Just keep dropping shades where ever and and the sheer size was enough to get credit for 100s of kills. I do not agree with this specific nerf, it is a lazy, uninformed nerf in my opinion. But something had to be done. At least now people will have to either keep savant and place their shades srtategically and manage the cooldown, or switch to DL and place/spam them even more strategically to get credit for kills . Not more spray and pray (and lets be honest, there was no 'pray' prenerf).

 

Hopefully, this will weed out the FoTMers and they will move on to another class which can then get the QQ and the followup proverbial Anet nerf-hammer.

[mixxed.5862]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > Huh, how is the change more condi damage though? Because you believe they'd switch to small shades? No way that's gonna happen.

>

> Good players will switch. It is frustrating to have your Sand Shade with that interminable cool-down. This is yet another example of poor reaction to QQing. Don't kill the recharge, lower the damage. That would have, at least, made sense. Now, as someone mentioned, you will see MORE scourges, running smaller shades, in large zergs. They will hit for WAY more damage with more shades - albeit smaller - everywhere.

>

> Oddly - and tbh I've not seen all Anet players in WvW - but not one of them I have seen played a Necro. That should tell you something about how clueless they are about the class and its mechanics.

 

Sorry to say so, but I think this is absolute nonsense. Taking Demonic Lore over Sand Savant makes the build completely pointless.

 

I really appreciate the change. It is a good one that makes Scourge less spammy and weakens the pirate ship. If it's enough to stop the heavy Scourge stacking remains to be seen. I just hope there will be a big change of meta...

[Brujeria.7536]

> @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > True. Bad players whining about Scourges. All. The. Time. And Anet tears up and nerfs us. Here's the secret to defeating a Scourge: DON'T STAND IN THE FREAKING CIRCLES! There - a pro-tip for you.

> >

>

> The circles that instantly fill up the entire screen or cover an entire node in PvP? Yeah, thought so.

 

Yes, the circles that do nothing on their own except when the caster uses long cooldowns and lifeforce. Also the damage is not high, it wont kill you anywhere close as fast as another dps focused profession can. Its a simple l2p issue from the start untill the end. What a scourge gets for its heavy investments by sacrificing a core profession mechanic, heavy cooldowns and lifeforce costs is simply not as strong as people overreact here. It affects many targets, yes, buts its individually weak against each single one, unlike similar classes.

 

Furthermore as people have told over and over again: it has counterplay. Its not like a warrior that can roll his head over his keyboard with invulnerability, that also procs for free if he gets low or a thief that can perma stealth and then suddendly crit for 25 k without counterplay. Or a revenant, which skills are long ranged wand can crit for 5 k on armored targets - the main damage skill even without ANY counter at all as its not even a projectile.

[Specialka.7290]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Blocki.4931" said:

> > > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > True. Bad players whining about Scourges. All. The. Time. And Anet tears up and nerfs us. Here's the secret to defeating a Scourge: DON'T STAND IN THE FREAKING CIRCLES! There - a pro-tip for you.

> > >

> >

> > The circles that instantly fill up the entire screen or cover an entire node in PvP? Yeah, thought so.

>

> Yes. Those circles - just move. Scourges get hit with other scourge shades you know. We just are smart enough to dodge out and condi cleanse/transfer.

>

> Frankly, they could nerf it all they want in PvP. I really couldn't care less. Hell, delete/remove the entire game mode, as far as I'm concerned. The ONLY people whining about Scourges in WvW are people who don't play properly. Simple as that.

>

 

Well, in that case, they could remove scourge or even necro as far as I am concerned :)

[KrHome.1920]

Some day... in a few years... when nobody cares anymore... Anet will realize that Scourge's brokeness lies in the Curses traitline and not in too short cooldowns.

 

Too many corrupts and conditions at once result in a lockdown of other game mechanics. A Condi-Scourge not running Curses is a useless Condi-Scourge. And other Scourge builds are not overpowered.

 

The spec becomes more and more a pain to play and it was already a pain at release because of mobility issues.

 

Nerfing Curses for Scourge while not crippling Core and Reaper is pretty much a rework of the Necro class as Curses holds a lot of class mechanics (Necros debuff and condition traitline), but it's really necessary to get rid of the mess.

[mixxed.5862]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> True. Bad players whining about Scourges. All. The. Time. And Anet tears up and nerfs us. Here's the secret to defeating a Scourge: DON'T STAND IN THE FREAKING CIRCLES! There - a pro-tip for you.

>

 

Woah, I just realized that you're actually the pro here :o That was helpful!!

[X T D.6458]

Stupid change plain and simple that ruins the entire purpose of Scourge. Making this all important trait unusable in WvW combined with the delay on damage destroys any type of synergy Scourge has for supporting allies, converting boons, and good luck killing anything with a tiny 180 radius when there is a delay before the shade skills actually hit.

 

Back to boonball meta because the only counter there was to it just got gutted, thanks anet.

[firefox.5614]

+15 s in wvw was to big actually beacause meta is pirateship as f and constantly moove, you have to pressure and spike all time, so yes scourge spam shade for pressure and now they just have - 80 % of utility. why? because you want to keep shade for bomb or get a 25 % damage reduce, than if you keep shade you can't use fully you F skill ( only f3 is usefull) condi clean was made by fb ( f2 not usefull at all if no shade on enemy ) and your f4 f5 war for enemy. For a real balance maybe put a recast for 5s between two shade or increase their duration and keep 30 s for reload or again just nerf condition by all way corrup or other.

[Eval.2371]

> @"Ben Phongluangtham.1065" said:

> The patch notes were incorrect. The 30 second shade cooldown was intended for both PvP and WvW.

 

While I have felt for a long time that scorge brings to many options to the table and needs to be adjusted. I do not feel that this is the right fix. I do not understand why the balance team would go this direction. Would you mind explaining to us what some of the thoughts are on this change and possibly some insights onto maybe other directions didn't work?

 

[Optimator.3589]

Part of me is mad about the over-nerf here, (full disclosure I do play Scourge sometimes) but part of me is glad that shade timing is going to become far more important, much like coordinating water fields and WoD usage during a fight. Baiting out an enemy bomb is also going to become more useful, so as a whole, we'll see skill and coordination a little bit more rewarded. Holding down W and spamming F5 is suddenly less of an assured win.

[Maxxamillion.4125]

This is a typical anet over reaction.

Players would rather come on here and moan until something gets nerfed, instead of learning how to play.

Run a decent build in a decent comp and adapt, don't scream for a nerf because you don't like it.

Really poor balancing once again by anet.

 

[Rym.1469]

A step in the right direction, several months after bringing it up. I assume - and hope - that Savant will eventually be cut and replaced with another trait once skills team finds time.

 

Good work on at least splitting it for the time being, Ben & the team.

 

[Kovu.7560]

This was not the correct nerf for the profession as the profession is on its own, but it will help with the group shade spam in wvw.

It strikes me as more of a band-aid fix that kills their utility from a supportive perspective and as an individual fighter.

 

7/10

 

~ Kovu

[Arioch.4810]

C,c,c.



 

I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

(Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

 

From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

[misterman.1530]

> @"Arioch.4810" said:

> C,c,c.

> 

> 

>

> I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

>

> From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

 

Range? What range? A GS Mesmer can pick off a Scourge without even getting close. A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. The Scourge has no range, and little mobility to rectify it. The people whining about this are bad players. Period. We also fight scourges. Easy to kill when you aren't terrible at the game.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > C,c,c.

> > 

> > 

> >

> > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> >

> > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

>

> (...) A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. (...)

 

FB casts reflect. ded lol.

 

It's not about roaming, it's about zerg fights. I am not happy with this simple solution, but I am happy they did _something_.

[Asum.4960]

Just rework the entire Profession at this point. This is just getting sad.

[Kilamanjaro.2705]

But there are alot more bombs that need dealt with if we're going to go down this road. It's more than necro's that mark up the ground and it's not shades that have become the deciding factor for pushes (winds anyone?)

If we're gonna deal with this on the scourge then let's address bombs in general, The current state is boring he who has the most bombs wins despite having a hella melee line all playing support roles because they can't pentrate the bomb field.

 

[Crazy.6029]

The whiners win, congrats! Now you don't have to pay attention to your boons. You don't have to watch your torment stacks (as much) or your positioning, and you don't have to change your build at all to help deal with the scourge. Which is all it would of taken to beat a scourge if you knew the class. Oh, but and 1200 range or stealth class will still be ok, cause they pretty much hard countered it already. Basically you won't need much of a brain now, so Congrats! On a side note this really only hurts the roamers cause the zerglets will still stack the scourge cause Demonic lore is...well ... you'll see.

Attention Anet.... Why not just make this change for Spvp?

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

> @"Kilamanjaro.2705" said:

> And lets be honest, the cooldown was TRIPLED, that feels like a knee jerk reaction. the type of reaction that causes issues. Albeit if we want to go ahead and double or triple the CD's on winds of disenchantment and all the other "bombs" I would actually support that, melee may actually be viable again

 

the thing you are missing here is that scourge nuke had before nerf lower cooldown than alot of non-nuke skills of other classes.

 

heck scourges could rotate super-shades faster than my firebrand can recharge mantra charges and those mantras ain't even close to same power level.

 

and scourge can still rotate 3 super-shades (post nerf) per every WoD buble so you may want to revise your demand.

(PS. what is very ironic in here also is that you seem to be blaming melee "unviability" onto, among others, elite skill deployed by class that realistically speaking has only melee options)

 

> @"misterman.1530" said:

> > @"Arioch.4810" said:

> > C,c,c.

> > 

> > 

> >

> > I see a lot of arguments around "dont stand in AoE" but problem lies in number of AoEs thrown around. Sand Savant was problematic thanks to range and size of AoE.

> > Change that is implemented is not my preferred way to handle it, but it's something. Even if one Aoe did 1k damage, when your team throws down enough of them....

> > (Other argument used a lot was: ranged classes can focus Scourges. Yes, sure, they can down lets say 10 Scourges. In this no downstate week that actually could work: In regular play, one or two properly traited blood scourges res up the rest of the zerg while melee train closes the gap/ ranged classes get ready for 2nd salvo. This change opens that type of play against Zerg somewhat)

> >

> > From what i saw today change did affect the comp in big battles - i saw a lot more Eles than usual - but what will happen to the WvW "meta" remains to be seen.

>

> Range? What range? A GS Mesmer can pick off a Scourge without even getting close. A long bow ranger can do the same. A Thief. The Scourge has no range, and little mobility to rectify it. The people whining about this are bad players. Period. We also fight scourges. Easy to kill when you aren't terrible at the game.

 

reminder that the talk was in context of zerg clashes: and sure you get alot of GS mesmers and long bow rangers there... and they totally can coordinate their movements to stay outside of scourges range all the time while still maintaining group cohesion, as for thief it's straight out bullshit scourge outranges thief in most realistic scenarios

 

as for how good or bad change actually is - can't really say need to see how it plays out in practice - what I do agree on tho is that savant shade had too much power for a 10s cd in it's previous form

[Crinn.7864]

> @"Brujeria.7536" said:

> > @"misterman.1530" said:

> > > @"mixxed.5862" said:

> > > Huh, how is the change more condi damage though? Because you believe they'd switch to small shades? No way that's gonna happen.

> >

> > Good players will switch. It is frustrating to have your Sand Shade with that interminable cool-down. This is yet another example of poor reaction to QQing. Don't kill the recharge, lower the damage. That would have, at least, made sense. Now, as someone mentioned, you will see MORE scourges, running smaller shades, in large zergs. They will hit for WAY more damage with more shades - albeit smaller - everywhere.

> >

> > Oddly - and tbh I've not seen all Anet players in WvW - but not one of them I have seen played a Necro. That should tell you something about how clueless they are about the class and its mechanics.

>

> Why would you lower the damage? The damage IS low already, both in the power department and in the condi department. Other classes can deal way more damage.

>

> Its simply a l2p issue that the playerbase refuses to learn, and anet keeps encouraging them by these pointless nerfs.

 

The problem with Scourge was never it's damage. What makes Scourge so strong is that it brings cleave + boonrip + mass debuffing + team support. You need to look at the entire package not fixate on a single attribute.

[velocity.4621]

but it's true, they do stand in the freakin circle,....it's not our fault, and no matter what class i'm playing, i super-rarely die to scourge, i main necro for so long, i know how to anticipate it...and there no reason you can't, i died mostly to SB, rangers, DE, and mesmers...

 

so, are you sure scourge's sands is the problem? i don't think so...

 

and i believe these whining people also die to old power necro / reaper's wells, because they love to stand in the red circle, what, you want to make smaller also? or make it have 100sec cooldown?

[Conqueror.3682]

30 seconds seems exagerated.

 

could have been 20 seconds.

[Kagusaki.3176]

Just like with the sand shades being marked as bright red circles of epilepsy which Anet thought will help, nerfing the sand savant will backfire and we'll have double or triple the scourges in wvw to compensate it.