Vallun's Balance Change Suggestions for next Patch

[Crab Fear.1624]

I want to carry a rifle and shield. make the shield main hand, and the rifle offhand.

[Solaerin.8635]

> @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> You're the only person around here saying it's strong lol.

Hmm so you didn't read the OP, surprising

>You've also shown your unwillingness to take advice on how to win such as what skills to tank so you can dodge sword 4 and how to position yourself to not get hit by sword 4.

I never asked for advice, I never even complained about Rev being too strong

> It's just impossible to avoid a frontal cone 0.5 seconds cast attack right? We used to do that same damage in an instant 360 degrees AoE around us, so it is indeed YOUR L2P problem if you can't deal with sword 4.

Like the other dude said, most people are going to use the skill with quickness so it's really a 0.25 second cast time. But regardless of that, I never complained that it was impossible to avoid, you're just projecting like crazy right now

> Chill on a power rev is like so OP bro oh no a mildy better cripple for 1.5s potentially. You know you don't even have to dodge sword 2 because you can also just walk away and you probably won't take the full 2k in horrible, oppressive (/s) damage?

Chill is a pretty integral part of what makes a talented Rev player hard to deal with. That you apparently don't know that is pretty telling of why you need to throw "L2P" into every one of your posts lol

> @"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

> While I don't agree that revenant is the God tier he's making it out to be, revenant is still very strong when facing power builds. The damage output on a revenant sat by a Firebrand is unparalleled. The quickness nerf toned the auto-attack down a bit though.

Rev isn't God tier. It's a very strong spec that currently suffers from the fact that several condi specs are super prevalent in pvp right now, but like as has been said, if you get rid of those other specs, Rev has nothing holding it back

 

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

> A guy crying about every class he meet in pvp in his stream during playing a one button spam dd deadeye himself i would not take serious in any balance question at all.

 

I just watched his stream from yesterday (mainly because I was against him in like 4-5 matches) and didn't hear any of this at all. Criticized another thief for 3 spam, that's about it, I don't really see why you have a problem with him.

[bravan.3876]

> @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > @"bravan.3876" said:

> > A guy crying about every class he meet in pvp in his stream during playing a one button spam dd deadeye himself i would not take serious in any balance question at all.

>

> I just watched his stream from yesterday (mainly because I was against him in like 4-5 matches) and didn't hear any of this at all. Criticized another thief for 3 spam, that's about it, I don't really see why you have a problem with him.

 

Maybe he had a good day yesterday dunno, the 5-10 days i checked his stream he was always crying about every other class, even stuff clearly needs more skill than what he is playing. The word monkey repeated like a mantra. And when you read his balance notes most of it (not all, even a blind dog can find some food sometimes) is just stupid.

[Vallun.2071]

> @"bravan.3876" said:

 

> Maybe he had a good day yesterday dunno, the 5-10 days i checked his stream he was always crying about every other class, even stuff clearly needs more skill than what he is playing. The word monkey repeated like a mantra. And when you read his balance notes most of it (not all, even a blind dog can find some food sometimes) is just stupid.

looks like we have a butthurt monkey on the loose

 

[bravan.3876]

Nah take your glasses and look again

[jcbroe.4329]

Watching a PvP stream and expecting to hear anything positive about the game or the state of the game is a fallacy right now lol.

[Faux Play.6104]

Druid immobilize lock needs to go. It lasts too long, and Having to target and attack something to get rid of cc is just dumb. That is assuming you play a class that doesn't have loads of blink.

[dolofanboy.8140]

Rev offhand sword balanced XD

[sephiroth.4217]

> @"Vallun.2071" said:

 

> Elementalist

>

> Make tempest a viable support option alongside firebrand. Make sword weaver less annoying to fight and have more impact in more situations.

 

 

I have to ask about this one and why it's not viable.... I'm not a top player but I have faced you top players a lot when I cared about my rank...

 

My Tempest seems to fit really well into a match, especially if I have Aura Share build with Soldier runes standing next to the FB and Scourge... I give the scourge what he needs most, Magnetic Auras + I also give a moving stun field for 12s to allies via static aura... With each disrupt/stun/CC applying damage, weakness and stealing boons (helps counter warriors or any melee heavy build) ontop of also applying mediocre heals to my allies to fill the gaps the FB can't fill in...

 

I play D/D builds for melee focused teams and run Staff for ranged focused teams....

 

 

So I gotta ask, why isn't it viable?

I mean it's hard to get the hang of and all, took me about 3-6 months before I could handle 1v1's with a staff but it's still do able just not sure why it's not considered viable after say 1600 rating?

 

As a top player I'm hoping you might be able to answer this.

 

[Huskyboy.1053]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

>

> > Elementalist

> >

> > Make tempest a viable support option alongside firebrand. Make sword weaver less annoying to fight and have more impact in more situations.

>

>

> I have to ask about this one and why it's not viable.... I'm not a top player but I have faced you top players a lot when I cared about my rank...

>

> My Tempest seems to fit really well into a match, especially if I have Aura Share build with Soldier runes standing next to the FB and Scourge... I give the scourge what he needs most, Magnetic Auras + I also give a moving stun field for 12s to allies via static aura... With each disrupt/stun/CC applying damage, weakness and stealing boons (helps counter warriors or any melee heavy build) ontop of also applying mediocre heals to my allies to fill the gaps the FB can't fill in...

>

> I play D/D builds for melee focused teams and run Staff for ranged focused teams....

>

>

> So I gotta ask, why isn't it viable?

> I mean it's hard to get the hang of and all, took me about 3-6 months before I could handle 1v1's with a staff but it's still do able just not sure why it's not considered viable after say 1600 rating?

>

> As a top player I'm hoping you might be able to answer this.

>

 

Because it has medium cast times. By comparison, FB has a lot of low cast-time skills or ones with no cast time at all (mantras) that are high-impact. On top of that FB has high access to Quickness, allowing it to shit out boons and healing like there's no tomorrow. Post PoF damage is higher than Pre-PoF, so being able to cast faster is important. Also keep in mind that Holo introduced a ton of AoE CC that makes FB's Stability spam highly desirable.

[Chuck.2864]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

>

> > Elementalist

> >

> > Make tempest a viable support option alongside firebrand. Make sword weaver less annoying to fight and have more impact in more situations.

>

>

> I have to ask about this one and why it's not viable.... I'm not a top player but I have faced you top players a lot when I cared about my rank...

>

> My Tempest seems to fit really well into a match, especially if I have Aura Share build with Soldier runes standing next to the FB and Scourge... I give the scourge what he needs most, Magnetic Auras + I also give a moving stun field for 12s to allies via static aura... With each disrupt/stun/CC applying damage, weakness and stealing boons (helps counter warriors or any melee heavy build) ontop of also applying mediocre heals to my allies to fill the gaps the FB can't fill in...

>

> I play D/D builds for melee focused teams and run Staff for ranged focused teams....

>

>

> So I gotta ask, why isn't it viable?

> I mean it's hard to get the hang of and all, took me about 3-6 months before I could handle 1v1's with a staff but it's still do able just not sure why it's not considered viable after say 1600 rating?

>

> As a top player I'm hoping you might be able to answer this.

>

 

Support Tempest belongs to Pre-PoF times. The PoF powercreep has rendered it pretty much useless. It can't keep up with the current condition application by classes like Scourge, Mirage etc - Firebrand can. Firebrand is probably the most blatant example of powercreep in PoF, it's just not as noticeable to people because it's not an offensive spec and because it's support abilities merely counterbalance the ridiculous powercreep of Scourge, Mirage, Holo etc.

 

I mean you said it yourself... you fit in next to a Firebrand, not instead of him. What do I need you for then? The FB alone can support well enough and I'd get far more value out of another DPS class than a support Tempest.

[Megametzler.5729]

> @"sephiroth.4217" said:

> > @"Vallun.2071" said:

>

> > Elementalist

> >

> > Make tempest a viable support option alongside firebrand. Make sword weaver less annoying to fight and have more impact in more situations.

>

>

> I have to ask about this one and why it's not viable.... I'm not a top player but I have faced you top players a lot when I cared about my rank...

>

> My Tempest seems to fit really well into a match, especially if I have Aura Share build with Soldier runes standing next to the FB and Scourge... I give the scourge what he needs most, Magnetic Auras + I also give a moving stun field for 12s to allies via static aura... With each disrupt/stun/CC applying damage, weakness and stealing boons (helps counter warriors or any melee heavy build) ontop of also applying mediocre heals to my allies to fill the gaps the FB can't fill in...

>

> I play D/D builds for melee focused teams and run Staff for ranged focused teams....

>

>

> So I gotta ask, why isn't it viable?

> I mean it's hard to get the hang of and all, took me about 3-6 months before I could handle 1v1's with a staff but it's still do able just not sure why it's not considered viable after say 1600 rating?

>

> As a top player I'm hoping you might be able to answer this.

>

 

Adding to what @"Huskyboy.1053" said, you described the problem quite well. You are a third member of the team fight, but you only contribute to the support (while not being able to support on your own, due to cast times, few stability, aegis, etc.). A single player might be able to stall you, maybe two without problems and outnumber you on the other nodes.

 

Without scourge, you don't deal any damage. Without FB, you do not have the sustain to outlast a lot of fights (against FB + scourge, FB + Holo, Druid + Holo...). Tempest is just too easily focused and taken out of the game by stunlocks or map awareness.

 

Also auras are good and all - but not as great as in HoT. Everybody has so much stability, shocking aura hardly does anything anymore. Magnetic aura can be great, but is situational. Fire aura... well. Frost aura ist still good, but not as good as it used to be.

 

All this generally speaking of course, assuming roughly equal skill and proper focus and rotations of the enemy. :smile:

 

The solution could be easy: Make overloads always give stability for example would help a lot. Of course cleansing out of water would always be appreciated. That would be a good start to see how it works out.

[Chungo.3169]

> @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > Lol revenant already getting called on for nerfs when it's barely coming back into relevance, that was fast. You know revenant has to trait fully glass (except condition clear trait in Invocation, every other trait choice is DPS) to get those numbers right?

>

> @"thebatman.6250" Bry do you play full glass? I'm pretty sure most revs play Marauder in sPvP but I could be wrong.

>

> Anyways Beep, Vallun is totally correct that rev has too much damage with 25 might stacks. I think tbh you're right that Sword 5 should be fixed so that it actually hits. However, Sword 4 does too much damage, Vallun is right about that. A balance patch can both nerf unnecessary damage and buff defensive stuff like what Vallun mentioned, it's not mutually exclusive.

 

I understand the point (and it is true, rev carries all the specs investing in dps, not sustenance, and was almost nerfed in each skill is shiro / glint) but they forget other professions as a rev I kill them several times in a row after playing 9000 games with the ... that do even more damage in one stroke from stealth lol and now that rev is not trash you want to leave it underground again, do you know that this rev damage is there because it has hardly enough support to keep alive? What do you think of f1 warrior? 10k insta cast without animation + perma stun, 13 ~ 16k thief from stealth, 10k gazelle, 10k guardian hammer, etc. Well, I hope you do not take into account post like this to balance.

[XxsdgxX.8109]

Fix the bug where Revenants get free boons on legend swap (like getting quickness after swapping from Shiro) before even thinking about any kind of nerf. Come on people

Currently that bug is really beneficial for Revenant

 

Also before sword got reworked to then become a decent choice Revenant kept doing terrible for so long... and still it's not that *amazing* yet. Shield is absolute garbage and playing with axe is quite unforgiving (on top of an already unforgiving class).

 

So what I'm saying is that Rev is actually already in a decent spot so please be careful. It barely needs any buffs right now and only for underused specs.

Fix that bug and nerf other clearly overtuned specs before creating another mess.

[thebatman.6250]

> @"Chungo.3169" said:

> > @"Huskyboy.1053" said:

> > > @"BeepBoopBop.5403" said:

> > > Lol revenant already getting called on for nerfs when it's barely coming back into relevance, that was fast. You know revenant has to trait fully glass (except condition clear trait in Invocation, every other trait choice is DPS) to get those numbers right?

> >

> > @"thebatman.6250" Bry do you play full glass? I'm pretty sure most revs play Marauder in sPvP but I could be wrong.

> >

> > Anyways Beep, Vallun is totally correct that rev has too much damage with 25 might stacks. I think tbh you're right that Sword 5 should be fixed so that it actually hits. However, Sword 4 does too much damage, Vallun is right about that. A balance patch can both nerf unnecessary damage and buff defensive stuff like what Vallun mentioned, it's not mutually exclusive.

>

> I understand the point (and it is true, rev carries all the specs investing in dps, not sustenance, and was almost nerfed in each skill is shiro / glint) but they forget other professions as a rev I kill them several times in a row after playing 9000 games with the ... that do even more damage in one stroke from stealth lol and now that rev is not trash you want to leave it underground again, do you know that this rev damage is there because it has hardly enough support to keep alive? What do you think of f1 warrior? 10k insta cast without animation + perma stun, 13 ~ 16k thief from stealth, 10k gazelle, 10k guardian hammer, etc. Well, I hope you do not take into account post like this to balance.

 

Some of those bursts are really telegraphic and predictable. With Revenant its usually just Phase Traversal -> Shackling Wave. Now I think you're being a bit over the top with some of these examples. The only way you're landing a 10k Andrenaline skill on warrior is running full zerker + MH Axe. Also none of them are instant case and they all have telegraphic animations. 13k+ on thief is again, full zerker running either p/p or rifle DE and they can literally melt with a single Sw4.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

> @"XxsdgxX.8109" said:

> Fix the bug where Revenants get free boons on legend swap (like getting quickness after swapping from Shiro) before even thinking about any kind of nerf. Come on people

> Currently that bug is really beneficial for Revenant

>

> Also before sword got reworked to then become a decent choice Revenant kept doing terrible for so long... and still it's not that *amazing* yet. Shield is absolute garbage and playing with axe is quite unforgiving (on top of an already unforgiving class).

>

> So what I'm saying is that Rev is actually already in a decent spot so please be careful. It barely needs any buffs right now and only for underused specs.

> Fix that bug and nerf other clearly overtuned specs before creating another mess.

 

Mainly people just aren't being clear. Rev is not OP and is objectively the bot tier class in the game, but **sword 4** is OP in an annoyingly cheesy kind of way which is why people are complaining about it before it even becomes a major problem. Very few skills in the game are capable of doing so much power damage in such a short burst, and with quickness from PT it becomes an unblockable instant cast "oops I accidentally your whole health-bar from 1200 range away". So it's more like "Rev could potentially become OP if all its counters get nerfed because sword 4 does way too much damage way too fast".

 

Again, a good fix is just returning duelist prep ( https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Duelist%27s_Preparation ) to the skill and then significantly nerfing the damage of shackling wave. This kills multiple problems with one fix - it gives renegade an offhand block, increases rev defensive utility, makes getting hit with sword 4 less cheesy feeling since it would increase the cast time of the damage by roughly 200 ms, and removes its ability to oneshot squishy targets.

 

 

[JayAction.9056]

Sword #4 doesn't need a nerf. It does less damage than old sword #2, on a higher CD and is harder to use due to functionality and functionally weaker.

 

**Please** just get better. Beginning seasons of POF rev damage was so low it could not kill most non sustain oriented specs purely because the damage was not there.

The damage still isn't there for the sustain rev has. It's just finally possible that with enough out skilling somebody you can **_FINALLY_** once again win on Rev without EXTREME LOS and other tactical shit that can be used by anybody on any class.

 

The type of traits/gear people have to use on rev to get high damage as well as the combos needed to be used results in instant downs on other classes.

[BeepBoopBop.5403]

Agree with the guy above me, everyone just wants their free kills back lol. Revenant is barely a viable underdog spec, nerf other things.

 

9k sword 4 on no toughness targets while having 25 might, Invocation and Devastation, and surely stacking some vulnerability is NOT out of line for a 99% glass spec, l2p. Glass Mirage and Deadeye laugh sword 4 burst damage out of the server.

 

If revenant SOMEHOW deserves a nerf after the shitty year and a half it's had, I insist that Incensed Response is the source of the "too much damage" problem. But even then, bring your strips, corrupts, and CC them to force out Facet of Darkness to shut down the trait.

 

Nothing this class has is uncounterable.

[thebatman.6250]

Most of these revenant posts dealing with Sword 4 and whether o not its OP seem to be tackling on the symptoms and not the root cause of the issue.

[Crinn.7864]

> @"thebatman.6250" said:

> Most of these revenant posts dealing with Sword 4 and whether o not its OP seem to be tackling on the symptoms and not the **root cause of the issue.**

Could the fact that Sword 4 also applies a root be the root cause of the issue?

 

[thebatman.6250]

> @"Crinn.7864" said:

> > @"thebatman.6250" said:

> > Most of these revenant posts dealing with Sword 4 and whether o not its OP seem to be tackling on the symptoms and not the **root cause of the issue.**

> Could the fact that Sword 4 also applies a root be the root cause of the issue?

>

 

Its a double edged sword with the root and Damage. If you hit 1 target you get all the damage and 1s root. If you hit 3 targets your damage is split 3 ways and you root for 3s. I personally would opt out of this switch and remove the cleave from this skill and give it a 1s immobo and sending the damage to one target.

[Etheri.5406]

Why do you consider core guard unhealthy but firebrand is not? I find firebrand to be several times more OP than core guard. Obviously core guard is more "annoying to deal with" especially for newer players due to its hit and miss nature; but it's also more clearly balanced in terms of advantages and counterplay. It also has alternatives.

 

Alternatives for firebrand ?